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Tuesday, August 07, 2018

Can Jose Ramirez Achieve the Rarest “Double Double” in Baseball?

Eric Davis couldn’t do it.
Alex Rodriguez couldn’t do it.
Willie Mays himself couldn’t do it.

Jose Ramirez? Jose Ramirez might do it.

gehrig97 Posted: August 07, 2018 at 08:48 AM | 21 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: cleveland indians, jose ramirez, ty cobb, willie mays

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   1. eric Posted: August 07, 2018 at 10:10 AM (#5722231)
This would disrupt one of my favorite trivia questions: Who was the last player to lead his league in both HR and SB? (Answer is in the article; Chuck Klein in 1932.)

I am rooting for him, anyways.
   2. Rally Posted: August 07, 2018 at 11:50 AM (#5722334)
3 years ago Ramirez was a light hitting utility infielder. He had a good K/W rate, was young and a decent defender/baserunner. I can see a player starting from there and making himself into a useful player. His development into a player who dominates every aspect of the game and has no weakness at all is one of the most surprising I've ever seen.
   3. bfan Posted: August 07, 2018 at 12:43 PM (#5722373)
A career .766 OPS in the minors and not a great base-stealer there. Can we get a rousing "WTF" here?
   4. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 07, 2018 at 12:44 PM (#5722374)
Here's another question: Is Mookie Betts on the brink of having the greatest season in history for a leadoff hitter?

Right now he's got 7.1 WAR in 93 games, along with a 184 OPS+.

Rickey Henderson had 2 years with 9.9 WAR, 1990 and 1985, which came with OPS+ numbers of 189 and 157. He also put up a 182 OPS+ in 1993, but that only came along with 5.0 WAR.

I'd say Mookie's got a pretty damn good shot. And there's no question he's a better defensive outfielder.
   5. Sweatpants Posted: August 07, 2018 at 12:59 PM (#5722386)
He also put up a 182 OPS+ in 1993, but that only came along with 5.0 WAR.
That was in his 90 games with Oakland. For the whole season he had a 148 OPS+.
   6. Traderdave Posted: August 07, 2018 at 01:01 PM (#5722388)
Chuck Klein - because the base paths in the Baker Bowl were only 80 feet long.
   7. EddieA Posted: August 07, 2018 at 01:06 PM (#5722392)
Is Ramirez still 165?
   8. Itchy Row Posted: August 07, 2018 at 01:29 PM (#5722406)
Is "double double" a regular term for leading the league in two categories? I see Lehrman used it in one of his books for Honus Wagner leading the league in slugging and stolen bases. If it's like a basketball double-double it would mean double digits in HR and steals. Cobb and Sheckard only had 9 HR each, so Ramirez would join Klein as the only players with double doubles who led their leagues.
   9. Ned Garvin: Male Prostitute Posted: August 07, 2018 at 01:31 PM (#5722409)
WAR takes it into account of course, but Henderson did have a significant baserunning advantage over Betts.
   10. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 07, 2018 at 01:33 PM (#5722411)
He also put up a 182 OPS+ in 1993, but that only came along with 5.0 WAR.

That was in his 90 games with Oakland. For the whole season he had a 148 OPS+.


Correction noted, and it only magnifies the scarcity of Mookie's accomplishment.
   11. Rally Posted: August 07, 2018 at 01:42 PM (#5722419)
Is Ramirez still 165?


Not a chance. He's filled out quite a bit, I'd say at a minimum he's 30 pounds over that.
   12. gehrig97 Posted: August 07, 2018 at 03:06 PM (#5722495)
@8: Nah. It's a term of convenience. Not a "thing" in baseball.
   13. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: August 07, 2018 at 03:17 PM (#5722509)

WAR takes it into account of course, but Henderson did have a significant baserunning advantage over Betts.


Henderson was significantly better in his '85 and '88 seasons at 18 and 17 Rbaser than anything Betts is going to do (probably), but Betts isn't all that far behind other Henderson years. Betts doesn't steal all that much, but he's put up back to back years of 9 Rbaser, not far off Henderson's other top years of 12, 12, & 11 (1983, 1986, 1982).

He doesn't walk all that much, but otherwise Betts just doesn't do anything poorly. He started 2 years older than Trout, but through 5 seasons Betts should be pretty close to the 37.0 WAR Trout put up (I'm including both of their initial abbreviated call up years in that 5 years). Betts is at 31.4 with a few more games to go.
   14. John DiFool2 Posted: August 07, 2018 at 03:33 PM (#5722521)
That's not the most shocking thing to me.

It's that the AL leader in SB's only has 26. Yeah almost 2 more months to go, but in some ways I miss the 80's...
   15. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 07, 2018 at 03:42 PM (#5722527)
Here's another question: Is Mookie Betts on the brink of having the greatest season in history for a leadoff hitter?
Setting aside the two Rickey seasons, there's Mike Trout's 2012.
   16. gehrig97 Posted: August 07, 2018 at 03:44 PM (#5722532)
Rickey's 9.9 WAR seasons came in 143 G (1985) and 136 G (1990), which aligns just about perfectly in terms of playing time with Betts. If Mookie plays in every remaining game (49 G), he'd finish at 142 G. Figure an off-day or two, call it 46-47 games left in the season for Betts. At his current rate of accumulation (.076 WAR/G), he'd finish the season at 10.7 WAR, give or take. In addition to the most WAR, I'm guessing he'd finish with the single-season slugging record for any lead-off hitter.
   17. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 07, 2018 at 04:19 PM (#5722580)
Here's another question: Is Mookie Betts on the brink of having the greatest season in history for a leadoff hitter?

Setting aside the two Rickey seasons, there's Mike Trout's 2012.


Good point. I'd forgotten that Trout led off for the Angels that year.

OTOH Mookie's still got a fair chance of passing even that spectacular year. He'd only need 3 more WAR to catch Trout, and the Red Sox still have 49 more games to play.
   18. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 07, 2018 at 06:29 PM (#5722682)
3 years ago Ramirez was a light hitting utility infielder. He had a good K/W rate, was young and a decent defender/baserunner. I can see a player starting from there and making himself into a useful player. His development into a player who dominates every aspect of the game and has no weakness at all is one of the most surprising I've ever seen.

So, you're saying it's PEDs?
   19. Yanigan Posted: August 07, 2018 at 06:48 PM (#5722695)
Here's another question: Is Mookie Betts on the brink of having the greatest season in history for a leadoff hitter?

Slugging over .600 and an OPS+ of 182 is mighty good. Fans of old-fashioned counting stats might lean toward Darin Erstad's 240 hits and 100 RBI.
   20. Cooper Nielson Posted: August 08, 2018 at 03:16 AM (#5722910)
3 years ago Ramirez was a light hitting utility infielder. He had a good K/W rate, was young and a decent defender/baserunner. I can see a player starting from there and making himself into a useful player. His development into a player who dominates every aspect of the game and has no weakness at all is one of the most surprising I've ever seen.

Jose Ramirez should be the biggest story in baseball. He hasn't been overlooked, exactly, but it's almost like he came out of nowhere to become the best player in the game. They should be making movies about him.

I remember in 2016 thinking, "Oh, this utility infielder is having a good month. That's nice." Then last year he became a legit MVP candidate and this year he's even better. My goodness, he was (briefly) leading the league in HR and SB at the same time, he's batting ~.300 with almost 20 more walks than strikeouts (on pace for only 80 strikeouts, which is quite impressive these days), and Fangraphs has him as the third-best defensive 3B in the game (UZR/150). What CAN'T he do?
   21. Booey Posted: August 08, 2018 at 07:58 AM (#5722925)
Slugging over .600 and an OPS+ of 182 is mighty good. Fans of old-fashioned counting stats might lean toward Darin Erstad's 240 hits and 100 RBI.


Or the great Brady Anderson's 50 HR, 110 rbi, and .637 SLG!

That's gotta be the SLG record for a leadoff hitter, no?

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