Seven shutout innings by Wakefield. I don't think this little experiment worked very well.

Wakefield's career is pretty awesome... definitely movie material, or maybe even mini-series (due to the length).

Emphasis mine. I still don’t get why there aren’t more knuckleball pitchers.

Well, I don't know, but I would expect that it's a combination of the following:
a) Viewed as a trick pitch/insufficiently manly
b) Requires an extremely different pitching motion, making it hard to mix in other pitches effectively
c) Effectiveness is much more subject to local variations in environment/weather
d) Higher variability in knuckleballers ERAs from year to year
e) Lack of catchers capable of handling it
f) Several spectacular instances of knuckleballers completely losing control of the pitch
Some of the above do partially overlap.

That being said, I would like to see a couple more KBs in the majors. It makes a nice change of pace, and it always makes for a more interesting running game.

Man, if I were a gm, I would kill to have a knuckleballing swingman on my team so I didn't have to carry 27 million pitchers on the roster.

It's awesome until you have to watch one every 5 days. Then it leads to heart problems.

Are there any good knuckleballers in the minors that have been blackballed from the majors? Charlie Zink is having a good year at Pawtucket, but he's in his fourth go-round there, and the Red Sox can hardly be faulted for not having brought him up yet.

I'm not aware of any other minor-league knucklers, though I'm sure they exist. I think the real answer might be g) There just aren't any other good knuckleball pitchers.

Add g) Very few pitching coaches want anything to do with it because they can't teach it or coach it. Having a knuckleball guru like Candiotti or Wakefield (in another 20 years, when he retires) dilutes the authority of a pitching coach.

Are there any good knuckleballers in the minors that have been blackballed from the majors?

Charlie Haeger (White Sox) has put up decent numbers for 3 years running and he pitches in the best hitters park in the IL. I've seen him pitch live a few times and he always looked like he could at least hack it as a swingman. He hasn't done that well in two cups of coffee, though.

Having a knuckleball guru like Candiotti or Wakefield (in another 20 years, when he retires) dilutes the authority of a pitching coach.

That's not a great reason, IMO. If your pitchers or pitching coach aren't smart enough to realize that the freak knuckleball guy needs his own coach, you need to change either the former or the latter.

I'm not aware of any other minor-league knucklers, though I'm sure they exist. I think the real answer might be g) There just aren't any other good knuckleball pitchers.

Haven't knuckleballers historically outperformed their minor league projections, mostly because MLB batters have not been selected for their ability to hit knuckeballs?

Man, if I were a gm, I would kill to have a knuckleballing swingman on my team so I didn't have to carry 27 million pitchers on the roster.

I'm guessing you're saying this because you assume knuckleballers are generally rubber-armed - they can carry a lot of innings, go several times in a week, etc. Isn't this a misperception? I've been made to understand that throwing a knuckleball requires just as much exertion and that the armspeed is fairly close to a normal pitcher's, and that the low velocity of the pitch isn't really a sign that it's easy on the arm.

I still don’t get why there aren’t more knuckleball pitchers.

I think because throwing a knuckleball effectively in MLB probably isn't nearly so much of a learned skill as people think. There's this persistant notion that if you practice real hard, maybe spend a few off-seasons having 80s Movie Training Montages with Charlie Hough, then most anybody can become a MLB quality knuckleballer. I'm inclined to think it's more a knack that you either have or you don't, and most folks don't.

You can teach any minor league pitcher to throw a cutter, but will it be a MLB quality pitch? Can he command it, throw it with consistency? Why is Mariano Rivera's cutter so much better than everybody else's? Same thing the with knuckleball. I suppose it's more teachable than a 97 MPH fastball, but there still seems to be a necessary ability underlying it.

I think it's also because to be a knuckleballer you basically have to be a washout at something else - Wakefield was an infielder who couldn't cut it, Dickey was a hard thrower who succumbed to injuries. Basically, with most players, most of the time when a player gives up he's too old or broken down to do just about anything at the major league level.

Haven't knuckleballers historically outperformed their minor league projections, mostly because MLB batters have not been selected for their ability to hit knuckeballs?

This was Rany Jazayerli's theory if I recall, but I don't think it ever got tested or anything.

knuckleballers are generally rubber-armed - they can carry a lot of innings, go several times in a week, etc. Isn't this a misperception?

Well, based on recent data, there's not a whole lot to go on - Wakefield, basically. But when he first started with the Red Sox, he was used in some crazy ways - I think he started his second game two or three days after his first ("Tim Wakefield has given up three hits in six innings and should pitch every day" - Sean MacDonough), relieving between starts, etc. As he got older, yeah, he had to go to a more conventional usage pattern, but if Wakefield is any indication, you can get a lot out of a young knuckleballer.

Or young Tim Wakefield may have been a freak of nature. Tough to tell.

Or young Tim Wakefield may have been a freak of nature.

Isn't that generally how all knuckleballers have been viewed?

Thanks guys...when I asked the question in the lead in, these are exactly the types of answers I was hoping to see.

This was Rany Jazayerli's theory if I recall, but I don't think it ever got tested or anything.

Thanks. I couldn't remember where I first read it.

Not everyone can throw a knucklball as hard as Wakefield, either. My fastball in my prime when I was an ok high school pitcher was probably around 65mph, and Wakefield I think pretty consistently throws the knuckleball at around the same velocity. If I want to throw it with any control, my knuckleball is probably around 40mph, if that. Not to mention that it when it breaks it's never a strike, and when it is a strike my grandmother could hit it.

I think a big part of Wakefield's success this year has been tied to the improvement of his curveball. He's throwing it a bit more, and it looks like it has a lot more break to it when he does throw it.

Man, if I were a gm, I would kill to have a knuckleballing swingman on my team so I didn't have to carry 27 million pitchers on the roster.

That always sounds good in theory, until the knuckleballing swingman turns out to be Steve Sparks.

Tuesday, Dickey throws seven shutout innings against the Mets. Wednesday, Wakefield throws seven shutout innings against the Diamondbacks.

It could be coincidence, but I'm wondering how much of their effectiveness is simply because there aren't any knuckleballers in the NL. How long has it been since there was a knuckleballer in the NL for more than a cup of coffee? Jared Fernandez?

There's a current Sox Therapy thread on Zink. The article linked in post #10 has some interesting stuff in it.

I think Zink could be a useful 5th starter for just about any team in the league right now. I'm biased, though, 'cause I effing love knuckleballers.

Isn't this a misperception? I've been made to understand that throwing a knuckleball requires just as much exertion and that the armspeed is fairly close to a normal pitcher's, and that the low velocity of the pitch isn't really a sign that it's easy on the arm.

I don't think the amount of exertion is comparable, but knuckleballers aren't selected based on their arm's ability to handle an MLB starter's workload of 90+ MPH pitches. So although I don't agree with your premise, the end result is the same: wear and tear on a knuckleballer's arm could happen at the same rate as another pitcher who throws 95+ MPH fastballs.

IIRC, Wake hasn't had many arm problems; mostly his injuries are related to back problems. That can still be a product of overuse, though in his case I don't think it is overuse as much as age.

I think a big part of Wakefield's success this year has been tied to the improvement of his curveball. He's throwing it a bit more, and it looks like it has a lot more break to it when he does throw it.

I've also heard that he's started to mix in a changeup as well, somewhere around 55-60 MPH. Maybe those are curves that didn't curve; but either way it seems to be effective.

In the past, hitters tried to wait as long as possible before swinging; that's when he started mixing in a "fast" ball (77 MPH). Now some of them sit on the fastball; so he developed a curve and/or change. That the latter three pitches are successful despite how pathetic they are is a testament to the quality of his knuckler. Unlike the cardiac ward of Sox Therapy, I enjoy watching him pitch.

Unlike the cardiac ward of Sox Therapy, I enjoy watching him pitch.

Wake it the shiz. I think he's fun as hell to watch.

Unlike the cardiac ward of Sox Therapy, I enjoy watching him pitch.

I'm with you vi. All things considered, he's probably my favorite Sox player ever.

That’s one of the things that makes knuckleballers pretty effective is that they’re the only ones who do it.

I don't think this is appreciably true. (It may be true in small ways, but I'm sure it's dwarfed by other factors).

Wakefield's career ERA: 4.32

The five teams Wakefield has faced the most (by innings pitched):
TOR: 3.87 ERA in 262.2 IP
BAL: 4.19 ERA in 230.0 IP
NYY: 5.03 ERA in 202.0 IP
OAK: 4.32 ERA in 179.1 IP
DET: 4.20 ERA in 163.0 IP

If familiarity helps, it's not obvious from the above numbers (granted, some park-adjustments, among others, would be appropriate, but these were the quickest/easiest to get off bb-ref.com).

As my dad used to put it, want to know how hard a knuckleball is to hit? The catchers can't even catch the thing, and it's a heckuva lot easier to catch something than it is to hit something.

I'm still surprised that the Rockies haven't seriously considered a knuckleballer.

PRI report, hitters vs. Wakefield, sorted by PA's

I'm still surprised that the Rockies haven't seriously considered a knuckleballer.

Flat pitches travelling 70mph is batting practice. Thin air isn't (or shouldn't be) kind to knuckleballs.

Haven't knuckleballers historically outperformed their minor league projections, mostly because MLB batters have not been selected for their ability to hit knuckeballs?

This doesn't make sense to me.

This doesn't make sense to me.

Batters advance through the minor leagues because they are good at hitting stuff like fastballs, curveballs, sliders, cutters, sinkers, changeups, and splitters. While hitting knuckleballs is a related skill to hitting those pitches, it is at the same time, quite different. So major league hitters are primarily better than minor league hitters at hitting "normal" pitches, but might not be much better than them at all at hitting a trick pitch like a knuckleball.

The idea is that hitting a knuckleball is a fundamentally different skill than hitting normal pitches, so in the same way that it's not clear how much better major league hitters at playing basketball than minor league hitters are (another completely unselected for skill), it's not clear how much better they are at hitting knuckleballs.

That's the idea at least.

I understand the idea. I should have said, the logic is unconvincing. To me.

I think the skill of hitting a knuckleball is so strongly related to the skill of hitting other pitches that MLB hitters would still be worlds better than minor league hitters.

If it were true, a consequence would be that knuckleballers don't get hit hard by good hitters and weakly by weak hitters to the same extent as other pitchers. Thus it would be right to "platoon" your knuckleballer by adjusting his innings to pitch against good offenses as much as possible. And to face weak lineups as rarely as possible.

Having been assured when I asked the question a couple of years ago (I can't remember any details) that submarine-pitching knuckleballers have been known to exist, I now find myself wondering whether any knuckleballers have ever been known to throw blooper balls.

Not, I guess, that anyone throws a blooper anymore. More's the pity.

Hitters hit. Remember that, because it's key here. Hitters hit.