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Tuesday, February 19, 2013

Canseco: Ancient Gravity Was Weaker

Gravity had to be weaker to make dinosaurs nimble

Neil Degrasse Tyson, he ain’t.

spike Posted: February 19, 2013 at 11:25 AM | 62 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: general

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   1. Dale Sams Posted: February 19, 2013 at 02:44 PM (#4371955)
The Earth had less mass then, yes? OR ARE YOU ALL DOUBTING THE CANSECO AGAIN???!!
   2. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: February 19, 2013 at 02:58 PM (#4371963)
The Earth had less mass then, yes? OR ARE YOU ALL DOUBTING THE CANSECO AGAIN???!!

Of course. They didn't have steroids then, bro. Earth had sissy girl arms in the Jurassic.
   3. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: February 19, 2013 at 03:01 PM (#4371967)
Of course. They didn't have steroids then, bro. Earth had sissy girl arms in the Jurassic.


T-Rex needed some of the clear.
   4. Jim P Posted: February 19, 2013 at 03:03 PM (#4371970)
The Expanding Earth Theory says he might be right, or at least not completely wrong.
   5. cardsfanboy Posted: February 19, 2013 at 03:14 PM (#4371976)
At least he is attempting to think. Much better than 40% of the U.S. that believes in moronic design.

I would rather have those rants going off in schools than a young earth theory. At least there is a logical component being applied here.
   6. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: February 19, 2013 at 03:15 PM (#4371978)
Neil Degrasse Tyson, he ain’t.


He ain't even Mike Tyson.
   7. Rennie's Tenet Posted: February 19, 2013 at 03:19 PM (#4371982)
Stands to reason. The earth has gotten 10,000 tons heavier in just the last week.
   8. Greasy Neale Heaton (Dan Lee) Posted: February 19, 2013 at 03:23 PM (#4371985)
Earth is in the best shape of its career.
   9. Squash Posted: February 19, 2013 at 03:24 PM (#4371987)
Stands to reason. The earth has gotten 10,000 tons heavier in just the last week.

Well done.
   10. Drexl Spivey Posted: February 19, 2013 at 03:52 PM (#4372005)
This comes less than a month after he tweeted "Our past has the heaviest gravity clowns."
   11. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: February 19, 2013 at 03:56 PM (#4372008)
I'm so tired of all these retired ballplayers claiming gravity was weaker a long time ago and that today's gravity must be all hyped up on PEDs.
   12. dr. scott Posted: February 19, 2013 at 04:02 PM (#4372012)
This series of tweets was fantastic. I love the part where he says... "I may not be 100% right but think about it. How else could 30 foot leather birds fly?"

this is what twitter was made for.
   13. Walt Davis Posted: February 19, 2013 at 04:11 PM (#4372028)
I'm so tired of all these retired ballplayers

Oh AG#1F ... -1 meme points
   14. Walt Davis Posted: February 19, 2013 at 04:12 PM (#4372030)
I have noticed that the gravitational field is exceptionally strong around my bed in the morning. It's a miracle I can get up at all.
   15. Dale Sams Posted: February 19, 2013 at 04:14 PM (#4372034)
Much better than 40% of the U.S. that believes in moronic design.


Or the 99% of people who believe made-up stats.
   16. willcarrolldoesnotsuk Posted: February 19, 2013 at 04:14 PM (#4372035)
The Expanding Earth Theory says he might be right, or at least not completely wrong.
Huh? If the earth were smaller back then than it is now, but presumably the same mass, then surface gravity back then would have been greater than now, not weaker.
   17. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: February 19, 2013 at 04:16 PM (#4372038)
This series of tweets was fantastic. I love the part where he says... "I may not be 100% right but think about it. How else could 30 foot leather birds fly?"

I'll take a lot of abuse from this world, but I'll be damned if I'll let anyone attack the integrity of the quetzalcoatlus. #### you Jose Canseco!
   18. cardsfanboy Posted: February 19, 2013 at 04:38 PM (#4372069)
Or the 99% of people who believe made-up stats.


I don't know if you were talking about this as a made up stat.
   19. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: February 19, 2013 at 04:48 PM (#4372083)
Huh? If the earth were smaller back then than it is now, but presumably the same mass, then surface gravity back then would have been greater than now, not weaker.


Maybe he doesn't believe in linear time, either.
   20. Rennie's Tenet Posted: February 19, 2013 at 04:56 PM (#4372089)
I have noticed that the gravitational field is exceptionally strong around my bed in the morning. It's a miracle I can get up at all.


The fields on the uphill sides of hiking trails are much stronger than just ten years ago. Or five years ago. Or last year.



   21. charityslave is thinking about baseball Posted: February 19, 2013 at 04:59 PM (#4372094)
Gravity had to be weaker to make dinosaurs nimble



Dinosaurs couldn't go to their left.
   22. cardsfanboy Posted: February 19, 2013 at 05:01 PM (#4372100)
Dinosaurs couldn't go to their left.


If that is true, then why is Jeter's range so limited?
   23. Tippecanoe Posted: February 19, 2013 at 05:08 PM (#4372112)
How else could 30 foot leather birds fly


Duh, the atmosphere has been decreasing in overall density and viscosity for eons. Why do you think nobody throws a screwball anymore?
   24. Mark S. is bored Posted: February 19, 2013 at 05:09 PM (#4372114)
The Expanding Earth Theory says he might be right, or at least not completely wrong.


Huh? If the earth were smaller back then than it is now, but presumably the same mass, then surface gravity back then would have been greater than now, not weaker.


Depends on which Expanding Earth Theory you're talking about. From Wikipedia:

There are 3 forms of the expanding earth hypothesis.

- Earth's mass has remained constant, and thus the gravitational pull at the surface has decreased over time;
- Earth's mass has grown with the volume in such a way that the surface gravity has remained constant;
- Earth's gravity at its surface has increased over time, in line with its hypothesized growing mass and volume;
   25. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: February 19, 2013 at 05:16 PM (#4372125)
Well, the moon was closer back then of course, so when it was overhead, it nullified more of Earth's own gravity. Dinosaurs probably just slept when it was on the far side of the Earth.
   26. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: February 19, 2013 at 05:20 PM (#4372129)
Duh, the atmosphere has been decreasing in overall density and viscosity for eons. Why do you think nobody throws a screwball anymore?


This is sort of true. The Earth's CO2 levels are (speaking in geologic time scales) at a low, about as low as they were during the middle of the Carboniferous period (when oxygen levels were twice what they are now, allowing animals that breathe through osmosis, like insects and amphibians, to grow to enormous sizes). CO2 is less dense than the other two major atmospheric gases (nitrogen and oxygen), and so, yes, on a geologic scale the atmosphere has gotten less dense and viscous. The CO2 levels are now much higher than they were a couple of hundred years ago, however, and the resultant increase in atmospheric viscosity will no doubt herald the return of the pterosaurs any day now.

   27. Pat Rapper's Delight Posted: February 19, 2013 at 05:30 PM (#4372148)
Earth's gravity at its surface has increased over time

I like this explanation for my weight a whole lot more than "I can't lay off the Little Debbie snack cakes."
   28. spike Posted: February 19, 2013 at 05:44 PM (#4372161)
John Rocker seems to be determined to be crazier than Canseco. I won't link to WND, but they are in the story I did link to.
   29. Cabbage Posted: February 19, 2013 at 05:55 PM (#4372165)
Maybe he doesn't believe in linear time, either.

Your midday is someone else's midnight, someone else's sundown and even someone else's sunup. Do you know that time is a simultaneous 4 corner square that rotates to a 4 day time cube within 1 - 24 hour rotation of Earth? You are educated stupid and unable to know Nature's 4-Day Time Cube Creation.
   30. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: February 19, 2013 at 06:00 PM (#4372167)
Well, the moon was closer back then of course, so when it was overhead, it nullified more of Earth's own gravity. Dinosaurs probably just slept when it was on the far side of the Earth.


According to the Welteislehre (the World Ice Theory) the Earth has had many different moons over its history, each of which slowly spiraled down in its orbit and spread its entire mass over the Earth's surface. According to some variants of the theory, the Earth's capture of our present moon is remembered as the Fall of Man in Genesis, the destruction of Atlantis, and so forth. We'll place that at about 5,000 years ago, but for geologic purposes it's at the present. I think that it's fair to place the crash of the last moon at the start of the Ice Age we're currently in, so that's about 2.6 million years ago. So it's safe to assume that moons crash into the Earth's surface roughly every 2.6 million years. This means that since the dinosaurs died out (~65 million years ago), 25 moons have crashed into the Earth's surface.

Now, the Moon has a mass that is about 1.2% that of the Earth, about 7.34767309 x 10^22 kg. We'll use that as the rough estimate for the average mass of the moons that have crashed into the Earth. So over the last 65 million years the Earth has added 25 moons worth of mass, or 1.83692 x 10^24 kg. Thus the Earth during the age of the dinosaurs had a mass of about 4.13508 x 10^24 kg, or about 69% of the current total. If we assume that the material added to the Earth was of the same density as the Earth itself, we find that the radius of the Earth 65 millions years ago was about 5629 km. This means that an 80 kg pteradon flying above the the Earth's surface 65 mya would be subject to about 697 newtons of gravitation force, compared to about 786 newtons for that same pteradon today.

Therefore we have conclusively proven that the Earth's gravity was about 88.7% as strong when the dinosaurs died out. Thus flying reptiles.

By the way, as the Earth has the mass of about 83.3 moons, we can demonstrate that the first two moons combined to form the nascent Earth (2.6 * 83) million years ago, or 215.8 million years ago. This was during the middle of the so-called Triassic period, which is obviously just another one of those lies that mainstream scientists tell us.

It is interesting that the dinosaurs died out exactly 25 moons ago. This suggests that a poisonous moon crashed into the Earth at that time.
   31. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: February 19, 2013 at 06:01 PM (#4372168)
This is sort of true. The Earth's CO2 levels are (speaking in geologic time scales) at a low, about as low as they were during the middle of the Carboniferous period (when oxygen levels were twice what they are now, allowing animals that breathe through osmosis, like insects and amphibians, to grow to enormous sizes). CO2 is less dense than the other two major atmospheric gases (nitrogen and oxygen), and so, yes, on a geologic scale the atmosphere has gotten less dense and viscous. The CO2 levels are now much higher than they were a couple of hundred years ago, however, and the resultant increase in atmospheric viscosity will no doubt herald the return of the pterosaurs any day now.


This is sort of wrong. Actually, more wrong than right.
   32. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: February 19, 2013 at 06:14 PM (#4372175)
This is sort of wrong. Actually, more wrong than right.


I assume the part I got right is that pterosaurs are coming back.
   33. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: February 19, 2013 at 06:17 PM (#4372177)
I assume the part I got right is that pterosaurs are coming back.

If Hollywood has taught me anything, it's that I will have my cloned dinosaur theme park in my lifetime.
   34. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 19, 2013 at 06:30 PM (#4372186)
Dinosaurs became extinct after a meteor bounced off a dinosaur's head, went over the wall, and hit Earth.
   35. bobm Posted: February 19, 2013 at 07:08 PM (#4372204)
Carl Everett is skeptical.
   36. cardsfanboy Posted: February 19, 2013 at 08:00 PM (#4372237)
If Hollywood has taught me anything, it's that I will have my cloned dinosaur theme park in my lifetime.


I would be willing to bet that at some point in my remaining lifetime, that we will have genetically engineered dinosaurs(Or animals that look like dinosaurs), even if cloning isn't a possibility.
   37. OCF Posted: February 19, 2013 at 08:10 PM (#4372242)
CO2 is less dense than the other two major atmospheric gases (nitrogen and oxygen)

Um, to be pedantic, CO2 is more dense. Avogadro's principle says that any given volume of gas at the same temperature and pressure contains the same number of molecules. So density depends only on molecular weight. Oxygen has molecular weight of 32 (approximately, on average) and nitrogen has a molecular weight of 28. Argon, which is about 1% of the atmosphere, is 40. So 29 is a rough number for the average molecular weight of air. Carbon dioxide has a molecular weight of 44. It's heavier than air. And water has a molecular weight of 18, so water vapor is lighter than air, and thus, all else being equal (which it usually isn't), humid air is lighter than dry air - as long as there are no liquid droplets.

But while atmospheric CO2 concentration in the Mesozoic was considerably higher than today, it was never more than about .2% or .3%, and that won't make much difference to the density of the air.
   38. flournoy Posted: February 19, 2013 at 09:59 PM (#4372294)
I would be willing to bet that at some point in my remaining lifetime, that we will have genetically engineered dinosaurs(Or animals that look like dinosaurs), even if cloning isn't a possibility.


Animals that look like dinosaurs, or animals that look like what most people expect dinosaurs to look like? In many cases, there is a difference.
   39. cardsfanboy Posted: February 19, 2013 at 10:30 PM (#4372311)
Animals that look like dinosaurs, or animals that look like what most people expect dinosaurs to look like? In many cases, there is a difference.


I imagine both. I think that it's possible that genetic engineering will allow us to create creatures that resemble many of both mythological and extinct beasts(extinct will be easy of course, especially "recently" extinct)
   40. OCD SS Posted: February 19, 2013 at 10:44 PM (#4372318)
How does the Earth keep getting new moons after the old one spreads its mass out over the surface (in #30)?
   41. Srul Itza Posted: February 19, 2013 at 10:52 PM (#4372322)
At Moons 'R Us, of course.
   42. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: February 20, 2013 at 12:14 AM (#4372353)
How does the Earth keep getting new moons after the old one spreads its mass out over the surface (in #30)?

Like this.
   43. Walt Davis Posted: February 20, 2013 at 02:46 AM (#4372390)
I would be willing to bet that at some point in my remaining lifetime, that we will have genetically engineered dinosaurs(Or animals that look like dinosaurs), even if cloning isn't a possibility.

Why not. The paper this morning was talking about using 3D "printers" and "biomaterial" to replicate organs for transplant.

   44. RMc's desperate, often sordid world Posted: February 20, 2013 at 09:28 AM (#4372442)
JOSE CANSECO IS NOT A DINOSAUR, MR PRESIDENT
   45. Greg Pope thinks the Cubs are reeking havoc Posted: February 20, 2013 at 10:03 AM (#4372455)
I think that it's possible that genetic engineering will allow us to create creatures that resemble many of both mythological and extinct beasts(extinct will be easy of course, especially "recently" extinct)

So why isn't anyone working on cloning (Jurassic Park style) a dodo or something? There have to be specimens around somewhere, and the DNA is going to be in much better shape than a 65-million year old dinosaur. Plus I have to imagine that a close relative could be found for a host.
   46. Ron J2 Posted: February 20, 2013 at 10:55 AM (#4372491)
So why isn't anyone working on cloning (Jurassic Park style) a dodo or something?


Because nobody cares about dodos, but everybody wants to see dinosaurs. OK, a lot of the super-giant herbivores would be boring to watch after the initial awe, but the zoo/theme park could totally finance itself by staging fights between various species of dinosaurs.
   47. Greg Pope thinks the Cubs are reeking havoc Posted: February 20, 2013 at 11:04 AM (#4372503)
Yeah, I guess so. And after looking things up on Wikipedia I see that I have the dodo confused with the great auk. The dodo's actually been gone for 450 years, way longer than I thought. The great auk's only been gone for 150 years and there are some preserved specimens of that one.
   48. OCF Posted: February 20, 2013 at 11:06 AM (#4372511)
I have seen some speculation on trying to clone woolly mammoths. After all, frozen material is available, and elephants would serve as the close relative host. And people probably would want to see them.

Then there's Neanderthals. Who couldn't be put into an exhibit because they'd be human.
   49. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: February 20, 2013 at 11:12 AM (#4372524)

Then there's Neanderthals. Who couldn't be put into an exhibit because they'd be human.


Questionably.
   50. zack Posted: February 20, 2013 at 11:28 AM (#4372552)
I'd settle for a thylacine, although I don't what you could stick it in, other than a tasmanian devil which seems unlikely to work.

On Canseco, what he's tweeting isn't really that crazy, assuming he's just spit-balling and doesn't actually believe what he's saying. He doesn't understand physics or biology, but he has a working grasp of biomechanics and is applying that to something he saw that he didn't understand. That's what you're supposed to do. That only veers into crazytown if you start to believe your wild-ass theories.

   51. smileyy Posted: February 20, 2013 at 11:28 AM (#4372553)
[49] Which part are you questioning -- that they're human (they're not homo sapiens sapiens -- they're homo sapiens neanderthalensis) -- or that we'd never put humans in an exhibit without their consent?
   52. Rennie's Tenet Posted: February 20, 2013 at 12:00 PM (#4372582)
The dodo's actually been gone for 450 years, way longer than I thought.


From the mouth of Sir Walter Raleigh in the Elizabethan Blackadder, "In three months time he'll be dead as a...dead dodo."
   53. PreservedFish Posted: February 20, 2013 at 12:13 PM (#4372589)
We wouldn't really have to put the neanderthal in an exhibit. We have Youtube now. He could just live with his human mom in a Truman Show type situation, although geared more towards science than entertainment.

Because nobody cares about dodos, but everybody wants to see dinosaurs. OK, a lot of the super-giant herbivores would be boring to watch after the initial awe, but the zoo/theme park could totally finance itself by staging fights between various species of dinosaurs.


Staging fights? Kidding, right? The cloned dinosaur may happen in our lifetime (please please please), but the staged dinosaur fight will not. Each dinosaur is probably going to require a huge investment, and then there are the ethical considerations. You might as well ask for staged panda fights. And zoos survive today with quiet large herbivores and listless lethargic meat eaters.
   54. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: February 20, 2013 at 12:20 PM (#4372596)
I am willing to settle for staged panda fights.
   55. Pat Rapper's Delight Posted: February 20, 2013 at 12:28 PM (#4372603)
I am willing to settle for staged panda fights.

A wise first step on conditioning the public to accept the inevitable staged dinosaur fights.
   56. cardsfanboy Posted: February 20, 2013 at 01:24 PM (#4372673)
So why isn't anyone working on cloning (Jurassic Park style) a dodo or something?


Who says they aren't? There are several projects working on cloning extinct animals, and there are probably dna available for the Dodo, as it stands right now though, the only extinct animal successfully clone(in 2009) went extinct in 2003 and died a few days later(Ibex). So we aren't to the stage that we can successfully clone a 300 year extinct animal yet, even if we found perfect DNA. The Woolly Mamoth project is of course receiving plenty of funding/attention, but hasn't made any real progress.
   57. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: February 20, 2013 at 02:04 PM (#4372703)
I am willing to settle for staged panda fights.

We will not panda to your basest instincts.
   58. Greg Pope thinks the Cubs are reeking havoc Posted: February 20, 2013 at 03:11 PM (#4372786)
CFB, you are correct. A little Googling reveals that we've cloned mammals, but not yet birds, which surprised me. So my pet dodo and/or giant auk is probably a ways away. Also, did you know that passenger pigeons would only breed when there was a large flock present? So they wouldn't breed at all in captivity, and once their numbers declined, it was an irrevocable downward spiral.

Man, the human race just destroys everything, don't we?
   59. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: February 20, 2013 at 03:41 PM (#4372813)
We will not panda to your basest instincts.

You're not game? I feel cheetahed.
   60. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 20, 2013 at 04:30 PM (#4372863)
Ocelot of bad puns.
   61. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: February 20, 2013 at 04:32 PM (#4372865)
We will not panda to your basest instincts.


You're not game? I feel cheetahed.

Ocelot of bad puns.


BOOOO! I wish I had more hands...so I could give those puns four thumbs down.
   62. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: February 20, 2013 at 04:35 PM (#4372874)
Man, you know you like 'em - quit lion.

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