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Sunday, June 29, 2014

Caputo: Several more Detroit athletes are HOF worthy

Sabermetrics rule!

2. Alan Trammell – It is incredible Trammell only gets a relatively small percentage of the votes for the Hall of Fame. The baseball-reference version of the Sabermetrics statistic WAR rates him as the 93rd best MLB player of all time. He filled a premier position brilliantly, shortstop, and was a World Series MVP. He was robbed of the American League MVP Award he richly deserved in 1987, placing second behind overrated Blue Jays’ outfielder George Bell. Trammell was every bit as good a player in every way as Barry Larkin, and he was a much better hitter than Ozzie Smith. They were first- and second-ballot Hall of Famers, and worthy of it. Yet, Trammell isn’t going to get in until the veteran’s committee looks at it. What a travesty.

Sabermetrics rule!

5. Lou Whitaker – I usually put Whitaker in a category slightly below Trammell because second base isn’t quite as important as shortstop, and Whitaker didn’t have the same MVP-caliber moments. Yet, in regard to Sabermetrics, he is better. The baseball-reference version has Whitaker as the 77th best player of all time, ahead Derek Jeter and Reggie Jackson. It’s embarrassing, in retrospect, Whitaker received less than five percent of the vote and didn’t make it past his first year of eligibility for the Baseball Hall of Fame. Like Trammell, he clearly belongs in.

Sabermetrician’s, please go jump in a lake!

7. Jack Morris – Simply put, Morris, easily one of the best pitchers of his generation, was a victim of a witch hunt by proponents of Sabermetrics, who view WAR as the only way to calculate Hall of Fame worthiness. Too many Hall voters caved into this pressure. And this is coming from somebody who greatly values Sabermetrics, but who also understands its flaws.

Repoz Posted: June 29, 2014 at 07:28 AM | 41 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: history, hof

Reader Comments and Retorts

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   1. AndrewJ Posted: June 29, 2014 at 09:13 AM (#4738703)
(Trammell) was robbed of the American League MVP Award he richly deserved in 1987, placing second behind overrated Blue Jays’ outfielder George Bell.

1987 was a weird year for awards -- Andre Dawson beat out Ozzie Smith for the National League MVP, Steve Bedrosian (!) won the NL Cy Young. Even Tim Brown beat out Don McPherson for the Heisman.
   2. RMc is a fine piece of cheese Posted: June 29, 2014 at 09:18 AM (#4738705)
3. Ben Wallace – Time should be kind to Big Ben. He was 34th all-time in rebounding, 15th in blocked shots and won the NBA’s Defensive Player of the Year award four times. He also was the key piece to the puzzle on an NBA championship team, the 2004 Pistons. So he couldn’t shoot free throws? Who cares?


Rodman and Laimbeer belong in the Hall, too, but of course they'll never make it.
   3. Every Inge Counts Posted: June 29, 2014 at 10:10 AM (#4738721)
Dennis Rodman is in the Basketball Hall of Fame (inducted in 2011).
   4. Rennie's Tenet Posted: June 29, 2014 at 10:33 AM (#4738725)
Spencer Haywood was a Detroit high school basketball star and also starred at the U. of Detroit while leading the 1968 Olympic team. He didn't play for the Pistons, but won every ABA award and was an NBA all-star four times.
   5. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: June 29, 2014 at 11:44 AM (#4738736)
And was also pro basketball's first so-called hardship case.
   6. RMc is a fine piece of cheese Posted: June 29, 2014 at 01:09 PM (#4738832)
What?! I had no idea Rodman was in the BBHOF. I assumed they'd keep him out forever.

I'll stick to my prediction on Laimbeer, though...unless he makes it as a coach or something.
   7. haggard Posted: June 29, 2014 at 02:07 PM (#4738989)
1987 was a weird year for awards -- Andre Dawson beat out Ozzie Smith for the National League MVP, Steve Bedrosian (!) won the NL Cy Young. Even Tim Brown beat out Don McPherson for the Heisman.

The award to Dawson was clearly the writers taking a dig at the owners for collusion. But having a great player willing to play for your team at whatever salary you feel like paying him, as Dawson was, is in fact really valuable.
   8. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: June 29, 2014 at 02:16 PM (#4738995)
If we put Caputo in charge of the HOF, the inmates will be running the place in no time.
   9. base ball chick Posted: June 29, 2014 at 02:18 PM (#4738996)
ok mr. caputo
you don't want sabermetrics for jack morris?

FINE!!!

then consider his 3.90 ERA. which right there eliminates him. you don't get in with an ERA that bad, just because your pitching career started in 1980. if you want to ignore the abilities of the other pithcers who pitched at the same time as him every year of his career, then you better ignore the year he started pitching, because it doesn't matter.

does that feel better? it's not even one of those newfangled stats like "third order win%" that almost nobody ever heard of. but hey, you can now use it to make everyone feel confused and dumb and won't THAT be helpful?
   10. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: June 29, 2014 at 02:19 PM (#4738997)
Harvey Kuenn... Rusty Staub... Mickey Lolich... Jack Morris... something's GOT to be done about the obvious Detroit voting bias for the Hall of Fame.
   11. Pleasant Nate (Upgraded from 'Nate') Posted: June 29, 2014 at 02:31 PM (#4739009)
Back-to-back wonderful articles from Detroit. Is this typical there?
   12. OCF Posted: June 29, 2014 at 03:14 PM (#4739028)
1987 was a weird year for awards -- Andre Dawson beat out Ozzie Smith for the National League MVP, Steve Bedrosian (!) won the NL Cy Young. Even Tim Brown beat out Don McPherson for the Heisman.

The Hall of Merit's MMP project did 1987. One vote across both leagues. The results:

1. Alan Trammell
2. Wade Boggs
3. Roger Clemens
4. Eric Davis
5. Tony Gwynn
6. Dale Murphy
7. Frank Viola
8. Ozzie Smith
9. Jack Clark
10. Darryl Strawberry

Highest-ranked NL pitcher was Orel Hershiser. Davis was the highest-ranked NL player, but it was very close among several candidates.

None of Bell, Dawson, or Bedrosian received any votes at all.
   13. thok Posted: June 29, 2014 at 04:25 PM (#4739056)
Rodman and Laimbeer belong in the Hall, too, but of course they'll never make it.


This is really a statement about Hall of Fame size. If Laimbeer should be in the HOF, then so should Jack Sikma, Horace Grant, Dikembe Mutombo, Otis Thorpe, and Sam Perkins, just among his contemparies at PF/C. Possibly A.C. Green, Detlef Schrempf, and Larry Nance as well.

Some of those spent more time at SF then PF, and Laimbeer was more of a center than a PF, but this gives you an idea of the issues.
   14. Rennie's Tenet Posted: June 29, 2014 at 04:47 PM (#4739085)
Rodman gave a jaw-droppingly gracious acceptance speech, right?

Freehan, of course.
   15. dejarouehg Posted: June 29, 2014 at 05:11 PM (#4739102)
Rodman gave a jaw-droppingly gracious acceptance speech, right?

Freehan, of course.
Actually, it was a fairly moving speech. What about Lance Parrish?
   16. Chris Fluit Posted: June 29, 2014 at 06:33 PM (#4739234)
Sergei Fedorov isn't in the hockey Hall of Fame because he isn't actually eligible yet. He becomes eligible in 2015, along with Lidstrom. Even so, I'm not sure Fedorov is a first ballot kind of guy. His career numbers are a little light and he didn't contribute much after leaving the Wings. The author compared him to Pavel Bure and it took Bure a couple of years to get in as well.
   17. theboyqueen Posted: June 29, 2014 at 09:51 PM (#4739361)
Dennis Rodman is fairly mid to inner circle, but Laimbeer? Really?
   18. Manny Coon Posted: June 29, 2014 at 11:36 PM (#4739425)
I don't know if Laimbeer is a Hall of Famer, but I do think he's underrated. His combination of efficiency, defense, rebounding and floor spacing was really valuable. I think like Rodman he'd be more appreciated as a player in 2014 than in 1989, but unlike Rodman wasn't around as long for people really appreciate he was doing. Rodman was a better player with the Pistons than with the Bulls, but most people didn't really appreciated his game to the full extent until his time in Chicago.

Isiah I think gets a lot of credit for the Piston's success because so many of his teammates were great in ways that I don't think were fully appreciated at the time.

Of course if the events foretold in Bill Laimbeer's Combat Basketball occur in 2023, he's an easy Hall of Famer.
   19. Cooper Nielson Posted: June 29, 2014 at 11:37 PM (#4739428)
So what's the consensus ranking of Tigers who are not in the Hall of Fame but should/could be?

1a. Alan Trammell
1b. Lou Whitaker
[GAP]
3. Darrell Evans
4. Bill Freehan
5. Chet Lemon
6. Lance Parrish
7. Jack Morris
8. Mickey Lolich
9. Norm Cash
10. Kirk Gibson

Something like that? With a shout-out to John Hiller, the longest-tenured single-team relief pitcher in history (AFAIK). And that 1973 season was a thing of beauty.
   20. Cooper Nielson Posted: June 29, 2014 at 11:42 PM (#4739433)
Tommy Bridges deserves a mention. He's probably the best Tiger pitcher not in the HOF, so let's slide him in at around #6. And Rusty Staub's in that general vicinity as well, though I don't really think of him as a Tiger.
   21. Rennie's Tenet Posted: June 29, 2014 at 11:54 PM (#4739441)
I think Bobby Veach would be a candidate, too.
   22. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: June 30, 2014 at 12:41 AM (#4739457)
With a shout-out to John Hiller, the longest-tenured single-team relief pitcher in history (AFAIK).


Well, you might not have noticed his final season, it being a rather low-key affair, but that New York guy did manage to grab this mark last year.
   23. Cooper Nielson Posted: June 30, 2014 at 01:19 AM (#4739476)
Well, you might not have noticed his final season, it being a rather low-key affair, but that New York guy did manage to grab this mark last year.

D'oh! :) Of course, that hardly got noticed.

Yes, what I should have meant to say, had my brain been functioning, was "the longest-tenured single-team relief pitcher before St. Mariano Rivera." (Rivera's retirement was one of the reasons I noticed Hiller recently.) Are there any others?
   24. theboyqueen Posted: June 30, 2014 at 01:39 AM (#4739478)
I think like Rodman he'd be more appreciated as a player in 2014 than in 1989, but unlike Rodman wasn't around as long for people really appreciate he was doing.


I think Laimbeer today would be suspended so often he would barely play. There isn't really anything like him in today's game (Larry Sanders? Bogut?).

Rodman is such an incredible athlete (and precocious flopper) he would have adapted fine to whatever rules, but I don't really see it with Laimbeer.
   25. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: June 30, 2014 at 01:43 AM (#4739479)
Yes, what I should have meant to say, had my brain been functioning, was "the longest-tenured single-team relief pitcher before St. Mariano Rivera." (Rivera's retirement was one of the reasons I noticed Hiller recently.) Are there any others?


I doubt it. Bob Stanley spent 13 seasons in Boston as mostly a reliever. Scot Shields spent all 10 of his seasons in Anaheim as a middle reliever, which might be even more unlikely than the long runs by the closers.

   26. bjhanke Posted: June 30, 2014 at 02:24 AM (#4739481)
RE:
cooper's list (#19) - I'd put the big gap between Freehan and a moved-up Norm Cash, pitch Morris for Bridges and then try to avoid making my head hurt by trying to compare Kirk Gibson and Bobby Veach. Different eras, very different strengths and weaknesses. Then I'd try to get the below-gap guys in some sort of order. I will certainly agree that four real decent HoF candidates from one team is a pretty big group. - Brock Hanke
   27. Cooper Nielson Posted: June 30, 2014 at 03:31 AM (#4739486)
I doubt it. Bob Stanley spent 13 seasons in Boston as mostly a reliever. Scot Shields spent all 10 of his seasons in Anaheim as a middle reliever, which might be even more unlikely than the long runs by the closers.

I was trying to research this topic a couple of months ago, but unfortunately the only way I could do it was by brute force, so I probably missed some. Anyway, I was looking for pitchers who were relievers in more than 50% of their appearances, and I came up with:

1. Mariano Rivera - 19 years with the Yankees
2. John Hiller - 15 years (also lost one year to injury) with the Tigers
3. Bob Stanley - 13 years with the Red Sox
4. Eddie Rommel - 13 years with the A's (252 games in relief, 249 as a starter)
5. Scot Shields - 10 years with the Angels
6. Al Brazle - 10 years with the Cardinals (missed two years due to WWII)
7. Jerry Augustine - 10 years with the Brewers
8. Scott Garrelts - 10 years with the Giants (one of those "years" was just one game)

Fun technicality: Stan Musial - 22 years with the Cardinals (pitched to one batter, and it was in relief!)
   28. Cooper Nielson Posted: June 30, 2014 at 04:32 AM (#4739488)
Jerry Augustine is the strangest one on that list, as the rest were actually good pitchers with flashes of brilliance. (Or careers of brilliance, in one case.)

Shields had a career ERA+ of 139; Rommel's was 121 and he won 20 games twice; Brazle had a 120 ERA+, and he led the league (retroactively) in saves twice; Stanley had a 118 ERA+, made two All-Star teams, and pitched 168.1 innings in relief in 1982; Garrelts won an ERA title (as a starter) and made an All-Star team. Hiller had an 8.1 WAR season and another where he won 17 games in relief. You probably know about Rivera.

And then here we have Jerry Augustine, with a career ERA+ of 91 and a career WAR of 4.1. He averaged just 3.3 K/9 and 3.2 BB/9. He had an ERA+ below 100 in 6 of his 10 seasons, and 2 of the "good" seasons were just 5 games and 4 games total. He was an adequate back-of-the-rotation starter for three years, moved to the bullpen and had one decent year, then had ERA+ of 86, 82, 75, and 66, pitching about 65 innings per year (negative WAR each of those years). So why were the Brewers keeping him around?
   29. TJ Posted: June 30, 2014 at 08:35 AM (#4739500)
Great to see John Hiller getting some love- as best I can tell, he and Goose Gossage are the only two RP's ever to post an 8 WAR season...and the injury Hiller suffered wasn't a bad shoulder or elbow. It was a heart attack, which is a DL description you rarely see.
   30. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: June 30, 2014 at 08:39 AM (#4739501)
Though best known for his slugging prowess, Rick Camp spent 10 years as a reliever, all for the Braves.

Ryan Madson was a reliever for 9 years with the Phillies. Then the Reds gave him $6 million as a free agent, but he was injured and didn't pitch for them. Then the Angels gave him $3 million as a free agent, but he was injured and didn't pitch for them. Hopefully he can come back to the Phillies now for that 10th glorious season. They don't have much else going on.
   31. The Robby Hammock District (Dan Lee) Posted: June 30, 2014 at 08:44 AM (#4739506)
It was a heart attack, which is a DL description you rarely see.
Closest I can think of is 1990s Jeff Gray, who was on the DL in 1991 and 1992 with a stroke.
   32. The Robby Hammock District (Dan Lee) Posted: June 30, 2014 at 08:56 AM (#4739511)
The author compared [Fedorov] to Pavel Bure and it took Bure a couple of years to get in as well.
Man, I don't know that I see that comparison at all. Bure was a legitimately inner-inner circle goalscorer who had a shortened career. Fedorov was a fantastic all-around player who played forever.

I don't think people really understand how insane Bure's numbers were when he was able to take the ice. He played eight full seasons (60+ games) in the NHL, smack dab in the middle of the neutral zone trap era, and had seasons of 58, 59, 60, and 60 goals.

Comparing Bure to Fedorov is like comparing Koufax to Seaver. Their greatness is so dissimilar that it comes down to your preference between peak and career value. All that said, Fedorov is clearly deserving IMO.
   33. Cooper Nielson Posted: June 30, 2014 at 09:38 AM (#4739528)
Though best known for his slugging prowess, Rick Camp spent 10 years as a reliever, all for the Braves.

By the standards I was using, Camp only has 9 years in the majors. Looks like he spent all of 1979 in the minors.
   34. AROM Posted: June 30, 2014 at 09:41 AM (#4739530)
Ben Wallace should be in the HOF for this motivational championship speech alone:

Piston: The Lakers are too many.

BW: Sons of Detroit, I am Benjamin Wallace...

Piston: Benjamin Wallace is seven feet tall (including his fro).

BW: Yes, I've heard. Blocks shots by the hundreds, and if he were here,
he'd consume the Lakers with fireballs from his eyes and bolts of lightning from his arse < laughter >

I AM Benjamin Wallace, and I see a whole army of my countrymen here in defiance of tyranny.
You've come to fight as free men, and free men you are. What will you do with that freedom?
Will you fight?

Piston: Against that? No, we will run, and we will live.

BW: Aye, fight and you may die. Run, and you'll live... at least a while.
And dying in your beds many years from now, would you be willing to trade all the days,
from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies
that they may take our lives, but they'll never take our Championship Trophy!!!
   35. dlf Posted: June 30, 2014 at 09:56 AM (#4739542)
Comparing Bure to Fedorov is like comparing Koufax to Seaver. Their greatness is so dissimilar that it comes down to your preference between peak and career value.


That is a strange comparison. I know very little about hockey, but it seems like you are saying that Koufax is all peak and Seaver all career. But Seaver's peak is very, very close to Koufax's. By WAR:

Koufax
10.7
10.3
8.1
7.4
5.7

Seaver
10.6
10.2
7.8
7.2
6.8

If career vs. peak is the heart of your comp, something like Koufax's teamate, Don Sutton would be a much better choice than Seaver who had a monster peak of his own.
   36. The Robby Hammock District (Dan Lee) Posted: June 30, 2014 at 09:59 AM (#4739544)
I was looking at Seaver as a guy who had a couple holy-crap-that-was-spectacular seasons, as Fedorov did, but mostly was just excellent for a really long time. Perhaps Sutton or Palmer would have been a better comp, though.
   37. TJ Posted: June 30, 2014 at 10:15 AM (#4739560)
Comparing Bure to Fedorov is like comparing Koufax to Seaver. Their greatness is so dissimilar that it comes down to your preference between peak and career value. All that said, Fedorov is clearly deserving IMO.


Just ask Anna Kournikova who was best...
   38. SandyRiver Posted: June 30, 2014 at 03:11 PM (#4740020)
It was a heart attack, which is a DL description you rarely see.

Closest I can think of is 1990s Jeff Gray, who was on the DL in 1991 and 1992 with a stroke.


Cardinals' Hal Smith (one of 2 NL catchers of his time by that name) had a heart attack a few days past his 30th birthday that forced his retirement in 1961, though 4 years later he had a brief cameo as player-coach when all the rostered Pittsburgh catchers got hurt. He just died earlier this year at age 82.
   39. alilisd Posted: June 30, 2014 at 03:42 PM (#4740063)
So what's the consensus ranking of Tigers who are not in the Hall of Fame but should/could be?


Mickey Stanley greatest CF ever!
   40. haggard Posted: June 30, 2014 at 04:53 PM (#4740154)
Are the 2004 Pistons the only NBA champion that will not have a hall of famer?
   41. dr. scott Posted: June 30, 2014 at 05:05 PM (#4740169)
I think Laimbeer today would be suspended so often he would barely play. There isn't really anything like him in today's game (Larry Sanders? Bogut?).


Holy crap did i hate Laimbeer when I was a kid. The Hawks/Pistons games then were quite fun to watch, but then he would always ruin it! at least that is all I remember now.

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