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Friday, March 07, 2014

Cardinals hof fan vote.

WHO DO YOU THINK BELONGS IN THE ST. LOUIS CARDINALS HALL OF FAME?
VOTE NOW FOR TWO REDBIRDS LEGENDS!

The Cardinals and Edward Jones have teamed up to honor the greatest players in the club’s history. The new Hall of Fame will recognize these figures for their achievements and impact on the organization during their careers.

Each member will be permanently enshrined in the new Cardinals Hall of Fame gallery at Ballpark Village next to Busch Stadium.

Vote for your top 2 players.

cardsfanboy Posted: March 07, 2014 at 04:06 PM | 24 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: cardinals, hall of fame

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   1. cardsfanboy Posted: March 07, 2014 at 05:05 PM (#4668011)
All eight candidates are deserving, but I'm hoping that Simmons is one of the two winners. If I had to predict, I would say that McGee is going to walk away with the first spot, no clue as to who will get the other spot. Pretty confident it won't be McGwire or Morris. Forsch was widely popular around here, but it was so long ago that I'm not sure how many people will vote for him, Edmonds was a polarizing figure because of his strikeouts, and Hernandez is as much a Met as a Cardinal... Not sure how come Torre is on this ballot, as the rule is that if you are in the Cooperstown HOF, you are automatically in the Cardinal hof. I guess because he's not technically in yet, and it's arguable he isn't in because of his playing career. But if so, then why not TLR on this ballot?
   2. KT's Pot Arb Posted: March 07, 2014 at 05:19 PM (#4668031)
How bout enshrining the best fans in baseball?

I mean permanently, encased in bronze, perhaps by filling the stadium until it hardens and we then never have to hear that meme again.
   3. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 07, 2014 at 05:24 PM (#4668034)
Primey for #2.

In all seriousness, this seems kinda beneath the Cardinals. Do the Yankees have a team HOF? Red Sox? I think of the Cardinals in that level, not the kind of franchise that needs a venue for celebrating the Willie McGees of the world.

EDIT: The Red Sox DO have a team HOF! So, whatever, if its a nice way to celebrate some fan faves, so be it.
   4. GregD Posted: March 07, 2014 at 05:34 PM (#4668049)
One of my dad's friends is in the Sox HOF. Obviously it's a huge fun thing for him. It also makes an easy way to keep the old-time Sox guys vaguely involved with the franchise without having to keep them on the payroll, so I guess there's some tiny value for the franchise. He's at an age where only the oldest fans remember him, but they still get a kick out of seeing him at their banquets.
   5. cardsfanboy Posted: March 07, 2014 at 05:38 PM (#4668052)
In all seriousness, this seems kinda beneath the Cardinals. Do the Yankees have a team HOF? Red Sox? I think of the Cardinals in that level, not the kind of franchise that needs a venue for celebrating the Willie McGees of the world.


Not sure why it's beneath them. This is a way to honor players for the franchise, guys who aren't going to get the cooperstown hof love, but have been integral to the Cardinals.

Mind you, the first person I would put into the Cardinal's hof would be George Kissel, but it looks like they were going for players. (Keith Hernandez was talking about this on the game today, he's already in the Mets hof). Bob Forsch, Willie McGee and Jose Oquendo all deserve recognition for their years of service to the Cardinals, that they aren't going to get in a national way.

   6. Moeball Posted: March 07, 2014 at 05:48 PM (#4668065)
Edmonds was a polarizing figure because of his strikeouts


WTF? Edmonds put together a run from 2000-2005, offensively and defensively, that very few centerfielders in history have been able to top - think Mays, Mantle, Cobb, Speaker, maybe DiMaggio. That's about it. That's quite an elite group. To even be in the same conversation as these guys means Edmonds wasn't just good, he was truly exceptional.

He was an order of magnitude above every other center fielder in Cardinals history, including McGee and Flood.

And a bunch of Cardinals fans have a problem with Edmonds because he struck out a lot?

If you're gonna go with the "best fans in baseball" thing, don't let people know that you apparently have a sizeable contingent of "least intelligent fans in baseball".

Now THAT would be something to be a real competition, as just about every team, including my Padres, has many fans that could be in the running for the title of "least intelligent".

I also totally misunderstood the headline - I thought "Cardinals HOF?" Pick the top 2? And immediately thought "Musial and Hornsby, no one else in the franchise's history is even remotely close to those 2."

Alas, that's not what they are asking. They are asking fans to pick someone like Forsch and McGee.
   7. bjhanke Posted: March 07, 2014 at 06:07 PM (#4668076)
The Cards already have retired numbers for all HoF players and some others, including GMs and owners, and also including the occasional player like Hornsby, who didn't wear a number while with the Cards. A Cards HoF probably serves the purpose of having players in the Hall that fans remember. The Cards have a LOT of superplayers from the 1920s-1040s, but I never saw them play, and I'm 66 (I got to see the ones whose careers extended into the late 50s, like Musial).

Willie McGee is an odd phenomenon. He is still wildly popular in STL, way above his playing ability. I think that some of that is that the Cards looted him from the Yankees, so that felt good, and then he was, really, the last piece that Whitey Herzog needed, since the Cards didn't really have another CF candidate after trading Tony Scott (who could not hit, but at least could play CF).

I don't recall ever hearing complaints about Jim Edmonds' strikeouts, or, really, about anything else. The fans seemed to know that he'd been clubhouse trouble in Anaheim, but he wasn't that in STL, and he played great for us. And he very likely is the best all-around CF the Cards have ever had for more than a couple of years. Cardinal star CFs have, basically, been Taylor Douthit, who was a lot like Curt Flood, Terry Moore, who was a LOT like Curt Flood, Curt himself, and Willie. Edmonds, because he could really hit, is the best of that lot, although Flood and Moore, at least, were better gloves (Douthit may have been too, but it's hard to compared Edmonds' glove to someone from the 1920s). - Brock Hanke
   8. cardsfanboy Posted: March 07, 2014 at 06:23 PM (#4668083)
WTF? Edmonds put together a run from 2000-2005, offensively and defensively, that very few centerfielders in history have been able to top - think Mays, Mantle, Cobb, Speaker, maybe DiMaggio. That's about it. That's quite an elite group. To even be in the same conversation as these guys means Edmonds wasn't just good, he was truly exceptional.


People thought he was a choker, you had similar grumblings about Edmonds as Reds have about Votto. Add in the high strikeout total, and some fans had reputation of him as a choker/detriment. Mind you, this was a faction of people who real goal was to oppose the American style of baseball that TLR brought to the team, and anyone not seen as a clone of Ozzie Smith, Vince Coleman etc was a guy who didn't belong on a St Louis roster.

Willie McGee is an odd phenomenon. He is still wildly popular in STL, way above his playing ability. I think that some of that is that the Cards looted him from the Yankees, so that felt good, and then he was, really, the last piece that Whitey Herzog needed, since the Cards didn't really have another CF candidate after trading Tony Scott (who could not hit, but at least could play CF).


Willie McGee is popular because he was a good player with an "aw shucks" attitude and it felt genuine. McGee avoided the cameras, avoided the spotlight and was hellacious fun to watch play.
   9. BDC Posted: March 07, 2014 at 06:31 PM (#4668091)
Do the Yankees have a team HOF?

They certainly do, though they call it Monument Park. If it's not technically a Hall of Fame, it's Hall of Famier than most :)
   10. The Yankee Clapper Posted: March 07, 2014 at 07:00 PM (#4668105)
Do the Yankees have a team HOF? Red Sox?

The Yankees have retired numbers, displayed along with various monuments & plaques in Monument Park in Yankee Stadium, which has some museum type displays itself. Not quite a HoF, but along with Old Timers Day, it celebrates the team's history and helps connect fans across generations.

EDIT: My failure to refresh before posting earns BDC a virtual beverage.
   11. Jim Kaat on a hot Gene Roof Posted: March 08, 2014 at 01:58 AM (#4668190)
And a bunch of Cardinals fans have a problem with Edmonds because he struck out a lot?


No, they don't. This is simply part and parcel of cfb's boring schtick that all other Cards fans are STUPID IDIOTS who are always just a few Budweisers away from forming a lynch mob, hanging poor persecuted TLR from the Arch, and changing the constitution to make calculation of WAR a capital offense. Without cfb's constant vigilance, St Louis would have already been destroyed by the great Cthstolen Cthbase and the Great Satan Whiteyog-Sothoth, currently asleep in the Mississippilyeh but ever in danger of being summoned by stupid ignorant Cards fans who for some stupid ignorant reason occasionally say something stupidly ignorantly nostalgically kind about a decade in which their team stupidly and ignorantly won three pennants and a World Series. I don't use the word hero very often, but thank God cfb is on internet message boards to correct the world historical stupidity of Cards Nation, thus becoming the greatest hero in American history.
   12. Baldrick Posted: March 08, 2014 at 02:24 AM (#4668191)
WTF? Edmonds put together a run from 2000-2005, offensively and defensively, that very few centerfielders in history have been able to top - think Mays, Mantle, Cobb, Speaker, maybe DiMaggio. That's about it.

I like Edmonds a lot, but this is overstating things a fair amount. There's no maybe about DiMaggio, for one thing. You've also left off Griffey who was easily better over the whole 90s than Edmonds was at his peak. I'd also favorably compare Duke Snider and Andruw Jones. And actually, Kenny Lofton from 92-99 is certainly in the same ballpark. Of current guys, McCutchen is a decent bet to put up a better peak than Edmonds and Trout is a VERY good bet.
   13. Yastrzemski in left. Posted: March 08, 2014 at 03:10 AM (#4668193)
Laughter.
   14. cardsfanboy Posted: March 08, 2014 at 04:30 AM (#4668194)

No, they don't. This is simply part and parcel of cfb's boring schtick that all other Cards fans are STUPID IDIOTS who are always just a few Budweisers away from forming a lynch mob, hanging poor persecuted TLR from the Arch, and changing the constitution to make calculation of WAR a capital offense.


Really...there is something wrong with you.

In St Louis, there was an active faction that absolutely opposed TLR's hiring, they literally flew a plane with a banner saying "fire Tony Larussa if the Cardinals want to win"
Any cardinal fan that denies this is just an idiot who never read the only newspaper in St Louis...so yes Kaat here is a ####### idiot. who has zero knowledge of what was going on in St Louis over the past 20 years.

We'll state simple facts,.
1. There was a faction of Cardinal fans who absolutely hated TLR. They Flew a plane over a game in St Louis saying "Fire TLR, if the Cardinals want to win a championship"(note the banner flew over a game that was the Cardinals tenth win in a row)
2. There was always a significant backlash against Edmonds... I find it hard to believe that anyone who is claiming to be from St Louis, is arguing this... we have the same backlash happening now with Holliday.
3. there is absolutely a Whitey Herzog Cthulu level of worship in St Louis, in which fans look at Whitey as the greatest manager of all time, even though, he put out about 4 out of 8 seasons of .500 ball....but heck the self serving son of a #####, by his own admission is the greatest manager in baseball history... and Cardinal fans have a sheeple level of naivete to believe that...
   15. cardsfanboy Posted: March 08, 2014 at 04:39 AM (#4668196)
For the record, I have spent half a decade debating the merits of Jim Edmonds against Cardinal fans in multiple message boards. My argument on this isn't grabbed out of thin air, it's based upon actual debates I have had with people on Stl Today, Espn, sport-boards.net, bbtf etc...
   16. The Duke Posted: March 08, 2014 at 09:48 AM (#4668204)
I don't know what CFB is talking about related to Edmonds. Never heard anything but admiration for him and have never heard the K argument. He was one of the best with a webgem highlight reel, a restaurant in St.Louis and easily one of the most beloved players in recent times.

The TLR and Whitey comments are true.
   17. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: March 08, 2014 at 03:33 PM (#4668315)
Now I'm imagining Whitey Herzog as an elder one in Elder Sign.

That Sox Hall of Fame doesn't have Jim Rice listed as a HoFer. Do they only induct players eligible for the HoF? I can't believe that Mo Vaughn would be in and Nomaaaaah wouldn't.
   18. GregD Posted: March 08, 2014 at 04:01 PM (#4668326)
That Sox Hall of Fame doesn't have Jim Rice listed as a HoFer. Do they only induct players eligible for the HoF? I can't believe that Mo Vaughn would be in and Nomaaaaah wouldn't.
Rice was elected the year they opened in. Are you looking at the right place
   19. GregD Posted: March 08, 2014 at 04:05 PM (#4668328)
3. there is absolutely a Whitey Herzog Cthulu level of worship in St Louis, in which fans look at Whitey as the greatest manager of all time, even though, he put out about 4 out of 8 seasons of .500 ball....but heck the self serving son of a #####, by his own admission is the greatest manager in baseball history... and Cardinal fans have a sheeple level of naivete to believe that...
I am not from St Louis but I problem have something close to that. Even now, I see the holes in his record, but still he takes over a Royals club that had finished 5th the year before and they finish 2nd, 1st, 1st, 1st, and 2nd. Then he goes to the Cardinals team that had finished 4th and they have the best record in the division but don't make the playoffs, then win the World Series, have two meh years and then make the World Series, have a meh year, and then make the World Series. I totally thought he was a genius.

to be fair, he coached nine full seasons in St Louis and had a winning record in 6 of them, not 4 of 8.
   20. VoodooR Posted: March 08, 2014 at 04:58 PM (#4668338)
What year does David Freese get inducted into the Cardinals' HOF?
   21. Chris Fluit Posted: March 08, 2014 at 05:58 PM (#4668359)
Rice was elected the year they opened in. Are you looking at the right place


The site in your link lists Rice as elected to the Red Sox Hall of Fame but doesn't give him the bold font/asterix combo that indicates he's also in the one in Cooperstown. I'm guessing that's what the previous poster was pointing out.

   22. GregD Posted: March 08, 2014 at 06:10 PM (#4668372)
Yeah that site is out of date, you're right. The wikipedia includes the 2012 and 2014 classes
   23. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: March 08, 2014 at 09:05 PM (#4668437)
WTF? Edmonds put together a run from 2000-2005, offensively and defensively, that very few centerfielders in history have been able to top - think Mays, Mantle, Cobb, Speaker, maybe DiMaggio. That's about it.


I like Edmonds a lot, but this is overstating things a fair amount. There's no maybe about DiMaggio, for one thing. You've also left off Griffey who was easily better over the whole 90s than Edmonds was at his peak. I'd also favorably compare Duke Snider and Andruw Jones. And actually, Kenny Lofton from 92-99 is certainly in the same ballpark. Of current guys, McCutchen is a decent bet to put up a better peak than Edmonds and Trout is a VERY good bet.

If you take Edmonds' 2000-2005 years, he's 10 OPS+ points below Dimaggio's 1937-42 and he's got 36.3 WAR compared to Joe's 44.1. Snider's 1952-57 barely beats Edmonds on OPS+ (157-154) and in WAR Snider's ahead by 7.2. Griffey's 1992-97 is also just about even in OPS+, but he's also a fair amount ahead in WAR (43.5 to 36.3).

Bottom line, though, is that Edmonds and Simmons would both be good choices, though if you ignore defense then McGwire annihilates everyone.
   24. Moeball Posted: March 10, 2014 at 10:45 AM (#4668958)
I like Edmonds a lot, but this is overstating things a fair amount. There's no maybe about DiMaggio, for one thing. You've also left off Griffey who was easily better over the whole 90s than Edmonds was at his peak. I'd also favorably compare Duke Snider and Andruw Jones. And actually, Kenny Lofton from 92-99 is certainly in the same ballpark. Of current guys, McCutchen is a decent bet to put up a better peak than Edmonds and Trout is a VERY good bet.


Thanks for pointing out some of the other comps, Baldrick. I may have gotten a little carried away but your additions actually further illustrate my point. To find players as good or better than the peak that Edmonds provided to St. Louis, you basically have to find some historically good players. Most of the guys on that comp list are obvious HOFers, and it's not like Lofton or Jones are chopped liver, either, damned good players in their own right.

That anyone would pick McGee over Edmonds on this ballot completely baffles me.

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