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Sunday, May 06, 2018

Jacob deGrom goes on DL with hyperextended elbow

The Mets changed course Sunday and placed staff ace Jacob deGrom on the disabled list with a hyperextended right elbow.

DeGrom was scratched from Monday’s start against the Cincinnati Reds and is scheduled to come off the DL and rejoin the rotation next Sunday against the Philadelphia Phillies.

Manager Mickey Callaway said the team decided to shut down deGrom as a precautionary measure. On Saturday, the Mets had said deGrom would take his regularly scheduled turn in the rotation.

Yeah, sure he will. Suuuuuure.

Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 06, 2018 at 01:15 PM | 77 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: jacob degrom, mets

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   1. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 06, 2018 at 01:23 PM (#5667298)
Prudent move
   2. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: May 06, 2018 at 01:24 PM (#5667299)
Kershaw, too ("biceps tendinitis")
   3. JJ1986 Posted: May 06, 2018 at 01:48 PM (#5667309)
I've got tickets to the game Sunday. I hope that at the least Conlon is making another start instead of Vargas being pushed up a spot.
   4. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 06, 2018 at 01:49 PM (#5667311)
I hope that at the least Conlon is making another start instead of Vargas being pushed up a spot.

Isn't Conlon on the Marlins?
   5. Ziggy's screen name Posted: May 06, 2018 at 01:50 PM (#5667312)
Isn't Conlon a photographer?
   6. JJ1986 Posted: May 06, 2018 at 02:05 PM (#5667326)
PJ Conlon is the Belfast-born starter who will be making his debut on Monday on deGrom's place.
   7. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: May 06, 2018 at 02:11 PM (#5667328)
The ship be sinking.
   8. Lassus Posted: May 06, 2018 at 02:41 PM (#5667356)
/Monty Python clip
   9. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: May 07, 2018 at 12:28 PM (#5667786)
The ship be sinking.


I said that 2 weeks ago.


Here's the thing. Somebody on Twitter said it best:

Are the Mets as good as that 11-1 start? No. Are they as bad as the 6-14 since? No. Are they somewhere in the middle -- the .500-ish team we all thought they were back in January? Probably. But if they end up on the good side of the "-ish," -- say around 86 wins -- that's probably enough for WC2.
   10. formerly dp Posted: May 07, 2018 at 03:16 PM (#5667941)
Are the Mets as good as that 11-1 start? No. Are they as bad as the 6-14 since? No. Are they somewhere in the middle -- the .500-ish team we all thought they were back in January? Probably. But if they end up on the good side of the "-ish," -- say around 86 wins -- that's probably enough for WC2.
A real actual MLB catcher would help some, as would a functional Michael Conforto. Rosario should be back in AAA--but given his defense, he's probably the best option in the org right now. They are getting essentially zero from C, 1B, SS, and CF (when Conforto starts)--it's really hard to win with a team built like this. I am weirdly not on board with dumping Reyes, thinking back to how lost he looked last April and how he turned it around to be among the best players on the team. But there's also not the PT for him to work back competence either. Cecchini's having a decent year with the bat at Vegas right now. And hey--Conlon has a 6.75 ERA there, so I'm sure tonight will work out well for them.
   11. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: May 07, 2018 at 03:20 PM (#5667946)
It was really frustrating that the Mets couldn't win on either Saturday or Sunday when they got solid pitching performances.
   12. Stormy JE Posted: May 07, 2018 at 03:29 PM (#5667957)
But if they end up on the good side of the "-ish," -- say around 86 wins -- that's probably enough for WC2.
Let's hope so. Right now, they don't look like a team that can compete with any competitor not named Reds* or Marlins.

* Fingers crossed.
   13. Howie Menckel Posted: May 07, 2018 at 03:40 PM (#5667969)
PJ Conlon is the Belfast-born starter

first Irish-born MLBer since 1945, apparently

now Irish-Americans - there have been some of those
   14. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: May 07, 2018 at 03:42 PM (#5667973)
It was really frustrating that the Mets couldn't win on either Saturday or Sunday when they got solid pitching performances.


Yes. This. I was at Saturday's game and was appropriately chuffed by Matz's performance.
   15. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: May 07, 2018 at 03:43 PM (#5667975)
Let's hope so. Right now, they don't look like a team that can compete with any competitor not named Reds* or Marlins.


Padres
   16. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: May 07, 2018 at 03:45 PM (#5667977)
.
   17. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: May 07, 2018 at 03:48 PM (#5667980)
Not for nothing, though, they really haven't been worth a sh!t since it was assumed a 7th inning 6-1 lead was already in the books and the "fans" began serenading Bryce Harper on April 16. Just sayin'. #karma
   18. The Yankee Clapper Posted: May 07, 2018 at 03:52 PM (#5667987)
Right now, they don't look like a team that can compete with any competitor not named Reds* or Marlins.

Don't forget the interleague games - the 4 against the Orioles could be competitive, too.
   19. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: May 07, 2018 at 03:53 PM (#5667988)
Obviously they need a catcher. Empty spots in the lineup have kept this team down at various points in their history. What I don't expect to change much is the pitching. I have heard a lot of folks in various social media outlets and in the news saying that the pitching is bad because the catching is bad. I don't doubt the slight influence that a good receiver and game caller can have; but this team is 6-14 in the last 20 games. How much better, realistically, does anyone think this team is with Kevin Plawecki and Travis d'Arnaud? All last year those catchers were on this team and the pitching was terrible. I think the Mets' pitching besides deGrom and Syndergaard might just be bad. I hope that I'm wrong and I'm trying to remain positive. I just don't see much there besides those two guys.
   20. Stormy JE Posted: May 07, 2018 at 04:02 PM (#5667996)
PJ Conlon is the Belfast-born starter
Ah, so he's British?
   21. Stormy JE Posted: May 07, 2018 at 04:04 PM (#5667997)
Obviously they need a catcher.
A first baseman too? To date, the AGon-Flores platoon has been atrocious.
   22. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: May 07, 2018 at 04:21 PM (#5668013)
Jay Bruce should be the left-handed half of that platoon.
   23. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: May 07, 2018 at 04:30 PM (#5668020)
A first baseman too? To date, the AGon-Flores platoon has been atrocious.


Yes. I actually think it's even worse to take a zero at 1B since, you know, having a 1B platoon with an OPS in the 600's is terrible. I just can't believe they lost two catchers on the same day. You know what? Scratch that. I can believe it. What I really can't believe is how the same thing happens every year.

Agree with Dog that Bruce at 1B gives Nimmo/Lags more PT and that is better than Adrian Gonzalez.
   24. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: May 07, 2018 at 04:33 PM (#5668023)
The Mets need a catcher? Cameron Rupp is available.
   25. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: May 07, 2018 at 04:38 PM (#5668029)
I'm sure Mackey Sasser is available too.
   26. Stormy JE Posted: May 07, 2018 at 04:47 PM (#5668038)
Jay Bruce should be the left-handed half of that platoon.
It pains me to say #### about Flores, as I might be one of only a handful of fans who possess a t-shirt with his no. 4, but he'll be 27 later this summer. He's got to turn it around quickly.
   27. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: May 07, 2018 at 04:55 PM (#5668043)
It pains me to say #### about Flores, as I might be one of only a handful of fans who possess a t-shirt with his no. 4, but he'll be 27 later this summer. He's got to turn it around quickly.


The problem with Flores is that now he's a 1B and to be a 1B you have to be able to hit really well. His bat played really well as a middle infielder, but he can't field. It is unfortunate but he really is a bench player and nothing more.
   28. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: May 07, 2018 at 05:36 PM (#5668071)
He is a right-handed platoon bat, which basically means he's a bench player...

he'll be 27 later this summer. He's got to turn it around quickly.

I don't get it. Why is there such urgency that he turn things around quickly? He's got 34 dreadful PAs against LHPs this year, compared with 400 PAs from years past that suggest he should be able to do a cromulent job in his role, and the fact that he's about to turn 27 shouldn't be any sort of a cause for concern. I've been maybe the most skeptical voice here regarding him as a full time player, but Wilmer Flores in his current role is not a problem, and it'd take a lot more than 34 PAs to convince me otherwise.
   29. Stormy JE Posted: May 07, 2018 at 07:01 PM (#5668118)
I don't get it. Why is there such urgency that he turn things around quickly? He's got 34 dreadful PAs against LHPs this year, compared with 400 PAs from years past that suggest he should be able to do a cromulent job in his role, and the fact that he's about to turn 27 shouldn't be any sort of a cause for concern. I've been maybe the most skeptical voice here regarding him as a full time player, but Wilmer Flores in his current role is not a problem, and it'd take a lot more than 34 PAs to convince me otherwise.
That's nice but, if you wish to discount Wilmer's meager numbers against southpaws, then his gaudy slugging numbers against righties in a similar number of PAs should be discounted as well.

I've defended Flores for more than four years but, when the Mets added Frazier to play 3B, retained Cabrera to play 2B, and even brought back Reyes for back-up duty (2B-SS-3B), his value to the club dropped.
   30. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: May 07, 2018 at 07:18 PM (#5668127)
I do significantly discount the numbers against righties this year. If I didn't, I'd be arguing he should be more than a platoon player. I limited it to his numbers against lefties, because I was discussing him as the right-handed half of a platoon. I also agree that as a 5th infielder/lefty-masher, he's not the most valuable player in the world.

I just don't get why you'd be concerned about him. Despite a .208 BABIP, he hasn't been that bad, and it's a small enough sample where if he hits a home run in his next at bat, his numbers will look fine.

Hell, he's walking a lot this year (11.6%, more than double his career average), and he's striking out a lot less (8.7%, compared to 13.6% for his career). I do not expect him to maintain anything like a 4/3 BB/K rate, but I find that information a lot more encouraging than I find the other stuff discouraging.
   31. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 07, 2018 at 07:23 PM (#5668130)
That's nice but, if you wish to discount Wilmer's meager numbers against southpaws, then his gaudy slugging numbers against righties in a similar number of PAs should be discounted as well.


You really shouldn't look at splits in this small a number of PA. He's got a 94 wRC+, vs. 100-105 in the projections. He's fine.
   32. Stormy JE Posted: May 07, 2018 at 07:41 PM (#5668147)
I just don't get why you'd be concerned about him. Despite a .208 BABIP, he hasn't been that bad, and it's a small enough sample where if he hits a home run in his next at bat, his numbers will look fine.


You really shouldn't look at splits in this small a number of PA. He's got a 94 wRC+, vs. 100-105 in the projections. He's fine.
I'm concerned because he's primarily a 1B now and 100-105 for a below-average fielder isn't a winning formula.
   33. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: May 07, 2018 at 08:21 PM (#5668182)
If he's primarily a 1B now, then I don't think you should call him a below-average fielder. I think he's fine at first.

No one would complain if the Mets went out and acquired a real, everyday 1B. That said, Flores is no disaster in his role. On the list of immediate concerns, he's very, very, very far behind SPs 3-5, the other half of the 1B platoon, and C.

And I still don't get what you mean by "he's got to turn it around." Was that not referring to his performance this year? If not, there's nothing to turn around. He's made small, but steady offensive gains throughout his career. Not sure why you'd expect him to become something more now.
   34. Stormy JE Posted: May 07, 2018 at 08:34 PM (#5668190)
No one would complain if the Mets went out and acquired a real, everyday 1B. That said, Flores is no disaster in his role. On the list of immediate concerns, he's very, very, very far behind SPs 3-5, the other half of the 1B platoon, and C.
And I still don't get what you mean by "he's got to turn it around." Was that not referring to his performance this year? If not, there's nothing to turn around. He's made small, but steady offensive gains throughout his career. Not sure why you'd expect him to become something more now.
No, I was saying the platoon has been a disaster. Moving Bruce to 1B against righties would probably be an improvement for the balance of the season. Fine, Flores isn't at the top of the problem list, but his lack of production is a cause for concern.

Even if you go by last year's numbers, a sub-.800 OPS now at 1B isn't very impressive. And IIRC, not a single reputable projection system had Wilmer breaking out this season.
   35. PreservedFish Posted: May 07, 2018 at 08:38 PM (#5668196)
Reputable projection systems never predict breakouts.
   36. Stormy JE Posted: May 07, 2018 at 08:43 PM (#5668198)
Whatever, fellas, I'm praying Peter Alonso's our starting first baseman this time next year.
   37. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: May 07, 2018 at 08:47 PM (#5668202)
Even if you go by last year's numbers, a sub-.800 OPS at 1B isn't very impressive.

Yes. He's not a great player. That's been acknowledged many times. What's being questioned is why you've suddenly soured on him when he's been as advertised throughout his career.
   38. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: May 07, 2018 at 08:50 PM (#5668205)
I'm praying Peter Alonso's our starting first baseman this time next year.

I wouldn't mind too much if he were our first baseman now, so we can agree there.
   39. Stormy JE Posted: May 07, 2018 at 08:54 PM (#5668208)
What's being questioned is why you've suddenly soured on him when he's been as advertised throughout his career.
Fair enough, Dog. Were he playing mostly 3B, I'd probably be a bit more patient.
   40. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: May 07, 2018 at 08:57 PM (#5668209)
I do understand that sentiment. But just be happy that Flores' value to the Mets is reduced because they acquired a better player.
   41. Stormy JE Posted: May 07, 2018 at 08:58 PM (#5668211)
BTW, may we also agree that a petition to Manfred requesting the rest of the season be played against Homer Bailey be drawn up and e-mailed to Park Avenue posthaste?
   42. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: May 07, 2018 at 09:03 PM (#5668215)
If you make that happen, I might stop complaining about Gonzalez.
   43. Walt Davis Posted: May 08, 2018 at 06:29 PM (#5668787)
There's a table at the bottom of b-r's league page that gives you a ranking of each team's WAA by position. Comes in handy when talking about things like the effectiveness of a platoon. Anyway, the Mets are indeed 13th at 1B, ahead of Phi and Col, just behind Pit and (ugh) the Cubs.

However, NL 1B average is a 775 OPS. A "sub-800" OPS at 1B is just fine. The Mets are 10th at 743 (Cubs 606 ugh). AGon is at 758, not a problem yet. Flores has hit 723 at 1B and obviously stunk playing elsewhere (which we assume is random). And Bruce played one game there.

The usual point of a platoon these days is to get average production for cheap. The Mets aren't getting that and we don't really expect it to get much better but it's got a ways to go to be a disaster. I mean the Rox are already at -1.1 WAR at 1B.

Who's Peter Alonso? What happened to that 1B prospect you were set on last year?
   44. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: May 08, 2018 at 07:11 PM (#5668805)
Dom Smith's stock was never especially high, and it's fallen due to alleged poor work ethic, followed by an injury, and then mediocre performance early on at AAA this year. He's still there though, and it's not that hard to envision him being the first baseman again at some point. Alonso is actually half a year older than Smith, but he has raked everywhere since being drafted, including 120 very dominant PAs at AA this year.

Sadly, it seems like neither one of them will ever be able to play anywhere other than 1B.
   45. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: May 08, 2018 at 07:12 PM (#5668807)
Harvey for Mesoraco is a nice swap of sunk costs for the Mets.
   46. formerly dp Posted: May 09, 2018 at 08:50 AM (#5669099)
Unlike JE, I'm not ready to throw Flores under the bus yet--we're not deep enough into the season to conclude much meaningful from his performance, and if anything, the increased walk rate, decreased K rate, and low BABIP suggest he's trending in the right direction, rather than the wrong one. The single he hit to center last night might be some bad luck correcting itself--Hamilton just missed it, and it seems like Bad Luck Wilmer has otherwise been having a lot of hard-hit balls caught this year. We're still at the point, as we saw with A-Gon on Monday, where one good game can totally flip a guy's overall line.

With Frazier out, we'll be seeing more of Flores and The Jose Reyes Experience. In Jose's case, maybe it'll be enough to wake his bat up--a lot of us were calling for him to be cut around this time last year, but he went on to hit .267/.333/.457 after he busted out of his early season awfulness.

Nabbing Mesoraco for Harvey is a better get than nothing, but he can't field and is amazingly fragile--sort of disappointed that this is the best solution to the catcher problem that Sandy can come up with, especially given that the Rays will prob be selling Wilson Ramos, and Miguel Montero still hanging around for free. Mesoraco's last/only good year was 2014 FFS...he's still youngish, but basically destroyed by injuries...
   47. Spahn Insane Posted: May 09, 2018 at 09:33 AM (#5669111)
and Miguel Montero still hanging around for free.

There's a reason (actually, numerous reasons) for that. He's old, he might be the slowest player in baseball, he's had recurring back issues that limit his mobility behind the plate so he's terrible at blocking pitches (though the pitch-framing metrics like him, so there's that), he cannot throw, at all, and he cannot hit lefthanders, at all. The only thing he brings to the table is a little bit of pop against mediocre righthanded stuff (and whatever stock you put in his pitch framing). Trust me--you want him nowhere near your starting catcher spot.

Yes, Mesoraco cost Harvey and he seems to be one of those guys who's never going to be healthy, but at least he's got a little upside with the bat.
   48. formerly dp Posted: May 09, 2018 at 10:06 AM (#5669128)
There's a reason (actually, numerous reasons) for that. He's old, he might be the slowest player in baseball, he's had recurring back issues that limit his mobility behind the plate so he's terrible at blocking pitches (though the pitch-framing metrics like him, so there's that), he cannot throw, at all, and he cannot hit lefthanders, at all. The only thing he brings to the table is a little bit of pop against mediocre righthanded stuff (and whatever stock you put in his pitch framing). Trust me--you want him nowhere near your starting catcher spot.
I had it in my head that Montero was better with the bat than he is (2012 was a long time ago!). Still...settling on Mesoraco as the solution seems like giving up to me. Never thought I'd say "this team could really use Rene Rivera" but that's where we're at...
   49. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 09, 2018 at 10:12 AM (#5669134)
till...settling on Mesoraco as the solution seems like giving up to me.

Well, no one's giving you an actual good player for Harvey. And the Mets don't really have the farm depth to get a good C in the trade market.
   50. Spahn Insane Posted: May 09, 2018 at 10:12 AM (#5669135)
I had it in my head that Montero was better with the bat than he is (2012 was a long time ago!). Still...settling on Mesoraco as the solution seems like giving up to me. Never thought I'd say "this team could really use Rene Rivera" but that's where we're at...

Heh. Rivera did a nice job for the Cubs last year after Contreras went down (when Rivera became Avila's backup), but I was happy to just thank him for his brief service...

As Dog says, it's a fair swap of sunk costs that might work out if Mesoraco can stay on the field (EDIT: and what snapper said; Harvey wasn't going to fetch a player who didn't also have serious limitations). Not an optimal solution, I agree. (But better than Miguel Montero.)
   51. formerly dp Posted: May 09, 2018 at 11:39 AM (#5669201)
I don't start drinking this early in the AM--no illusions about Harvey's trade value & his ability to land a decent catcher in return. My concern is more with Mesoraco, because he apparently can't field any more, and hasn't shown any recent ability to hit, either. I'd take Rivera at this point (he was OK as a Met, asked to play more than he should have been) but he's not available. Also holding out hope that Plawecki can be decent enough to justify grabbing the bulk of the playing time and make this a moot point. Part of the problem with this bind is that the guy who could bring back a solid C is also someone they can't afford to deal (Nimmo). It's a tricky situation. And while I understood the frustration with Harvey, this does seem a bit premature, esp with Vargas also unable to get major league hitters out...
   52. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: May 09, 2018 at 11:47 AM (#5669210)

And while I understood the frustration with Harvey, this does seem a bit premature, esp with Vargas also unable to get major league hitters out...


I see your point, but if they hadn't DFAed Harvey, they would have essentially been playing a man down. Harvey was the last guy in the bullpen, the guy you brought in to get outs in a 15-0 blowout loss. That's what he had been reduced to, how far he'd sunk and he couldn't even do that effectively. He had no more value to the team as a pitcher, and when he refused to go to the minors, that was the last straw.
   53. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: May 09, 2018 at 12:40 PM (#5669257)
Vargas has not had thoracic outlet surgery so there is at least a little hope that he will turn it around. He is old though and looking it. I think Harvey is toast.
   54. formerly dp Posted: May 09, 2018 at 02:29 PM (#5669372)
I suspect Harvey is toast too...I'll be pulling for him with the Reds, but not expecting much. Still it seems weird to make the decision based on a month's worth of starts.

Keith is gushing about the way Mesoraco's handling Wheeler today, and I'd be curious to hear from the Reds folks on the board if he's well-regarded on that front.
   55. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 09, 2018 at 02:33 PM (#5669377)
I suspect Harvey is toast too...

I don't think he needs to be toast; he still throws hard enough to get people out. But, he needs to go to the minors and totally rebuild his game. He's probably too proud/stubborn to do that.
   56. Spahn Insane Posted: May 09, 2018 at 04:03 PM (#5669473)
So, probably a dumb question, but I don't follow the Mets that closely--what happened to d'Arnaud? He was pretty good for a minute there.
   57. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 09, 2018 at 04:07 PM (#5669477)
So, probably a dumb question, but I don't follow the Mets that closely--what happened to d'Arnaud? He was pretty good for a minute there.

Injured, out for the season.
   58. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: May 09, 2018 at 05:12 PM (#5669547)
So, probably a dumb question, but I don't follow the Mets that closely--what happened to d'Arnaud?


Tommy John Surgery. It's not just for pitchers anymore.
   59. Adam Starblind Posted: May 09, 2018 at 07:16 PM (#5669599)
Still it seems weird to make the decision based on a month's worth of starts.


Their preference was to send him to the minors to work it out. He refused.
   60. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: May 10, 2018 at 08:50 AM (#5669866)
Still it seems weird to make the decision based on a month's worth of starts.


How about based on 22 starts and 120 IP? Because over 2017 and 2018, he has a 6.77 ERA over that many starts and innings. Do you want marmalade or butter with your toast?

EDIT: I think snapper is right in the sense that if he swallowed his pride and went to the minors (maybe even for a whole year) to re-learn to pitch from the ground up, he might be able to be close to league average.
   61. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: May 10, 2018 at 09:44 AM (#5669886)
Keith is gushing about the way Mesoraco's handling Wheeler today, and I'd be curious to hear from the Reds folks on the board if he's well-regarded on that front.

Game calling, and defense in general, have been the knocks against Mesoraco throughout his career. All caveats about catcher ERA aside, the staff was over 2 runs worse under Mesoraco versus Barnhart last year, with an OPS difference well over 100. I don't recall any pitchers complaining about him necessarily. But Barnhart has certainly been the preferred receiver - like Ryan Hanigan was when Mesoraco first came up.
   62. formerly dp Posted: May 10, 2018 at 09:54 AM (#5669896)
How about based on 22 starts and 120 IP? Because over 2017 and 2018, he has a 6.77 ERA over that many starts and innings. Do you want marmalade or butter with your toast?
I think you're misunderstanding my point: they made a decision based on a handful of starts in April. I totally get that Harvey was terrible in 2017. They knew that in ST, and they knew that going into April when they handed him a rotation spot. A lot of perfectly fine pitchers struggle to put it together for the first month of the season--and a lot of mediocre pitchers can string together a couple of good starts (Zach f'ing Eflin has a .71 ERA right now). It seems like their decision was based on a few bad starts by Harvey and one very strong start by Wheeler--so I didn't get the decision to reverse course on Harvey over Wheeler so soon. But I also didn't necessarily understand the logic of starting the season with Harvey in the rotation over Wheeler, so...

One the the emerging tragedies of the 2018 Mets is that the suckitude of the offense is wasting some nice/unheralded performances out of the bullpen guys--and all of this without Swarzak (now moved to 60-day DL, urg).

Game calling, and defense in general, have been the knocks against Mesoraco throughout his career. All caveats about catcher ERA aside, the staff was over 2 runs worse under Mesoraco versus Barnhart last year, with an OPS difference well over 100. I don't recall any pitchers complaining about him necessarily. But Barnhart has certainly been the preferred receiver - like Ryan Hanigan was when Mesoraco first came up.

Thanks. I remember him never being particularly well-regarded on defense, but didn't know if that extended to his pitcher handling. Keith praised him for calling an "aggressive" game with Wheeler yesterday, and going to the mound on one particularly well-timed occasion. Maybe they'll have good chemistry--Wheeler's always been one of those guys who just seems mentally fragile.
   63. Conor Posted: May 10, 2018 at 10:02 AM (#5669902)
I've been anti Harvey for a while, so I'm biased, but I really do just think he's toast. His velocity is...ok, I guess. But his breaking stuff isn't as sharp as it used to be either. Could he completely revamp his pitching style and be effective again? Anything is possible, I would bet strongly against it. There are 145 starting pitchers who have thrown 100 or more innings since the start of last year, Harvey is 125th in swinging strike rate. His stuff is just gone. For reference, from 2012-15, Harvey had the 8th best swinging strike rate of any starting pitcher.

But I also didn't necessarily understand the logic of starting the season with Harvey in the rotation over Wheeler, so...


Probably at least some of it was they could send Wheeler to the minors, and they couldn't do it with Harvey.
   64. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 10, 2018 at 10:04 AM (#5669903)
Keith praised him for calling an "aggressive" game with Wheeler yesterday, and going to the mound on one particularly well-timed occasion.
Is it just me, or are 95 percent of mound visits these days accompanied by one or more of the announcers commenting that although there have generally been too many mound visits (and they are now limited), this particular mound visit is a great idea?
   65. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: May 10, 2018 at 10:09 AM (#5669908)
I think you're misunderstanding my point: they made a decision based on a handful of starts in April. I totally get that Harvey was terrible in 2017. They knew that in ST, and they knew that going into April when they handed him a rotation spot. A lot of perfectly fine pitchers struggle to put it together for the first month of the season--and a lot of mediocre pitchers can string together a couple of good starts (Zach f'ing Eflin has a .71 ERA right now). It seems like their decision was based on a few bad starts by Harvey and one very strong start by Wheeler--so I didn't get the decision to reverse course on Harvey over Wheeler so soon. But I also didn't necessarily understand the logic of starting the season with Harvey in the rotation over Wheeler, so...

One the the emerging tragedies of the 2018 Mets is that the suckitude of the offense is wasting some nice/unheralded performances out of the bullpen guys--and all of this without Swarzak (now moved to 60-day DL, urg).


Fair enough, but I think that 2017 factors into the 2018 decision making process. Clearly they had Harvey under contract and came into the season with him on the roster. They probably knew they weren't getting much in a trade for him in the offseason so they decided to give him a shot. Maybe they don't quantify out loud the size of Matt Harvey's leash for 2018. I see what you mean about the optics of making a decision a month into the season, but there has been little evidence anywhere in the two years previous that Matt Harvey, as currently constructed, is capable of getting hitters out. I do wish him well and remember a time when Harvey Days were all we had to look forward to and all that. I hate to say it but maybe Boras was right and he shouldn't have pitched so many innings in 2015. Who knows?
   66. formerly dp Posted: May 10, 2018 at 10:28 AM (#5669914)
Is it just me, or are 95 percent of mound visits these days accompanied by one or more of the announcers commenting that although there have generally been too many mound visits (and they are now limited), this particular mound visit is a great idea?
Indeed. But Keith Hernandez is not now and has never been a bastion of intellectual consistency.
   67. PreservedFish Posted: May 10, 2018 at 10:30 AM (#5669915)
So are baseball teams not allowed to make decisions in April?
   68. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: May 10, 2018 at 10:33 AM (#5669917)
Is it just me, or are 95 percent of mound visits these days accompanied by one or more of the announcers commenting that although there have generally been too many mound visits (and they are now limited), this particular mound visit is a great idea?


It is amazing how bad even the halfway decent announcers are.
   69. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: May 10, 2018 at 10:34 AM (#5669918)
Indeed. But Keith Hernandez is not now and has never been a bastion of intellectual consistency.


So true. Hernandez has really devolved into an old person*. Still entertaining at times because of his antics, but not really as knowledgeable about baseball as his reputation suggests.

*no offense to old people, more like keith just wants to order people off his lawn all the time.
   70. formerly dp Posted: May 10, 2018 at 10:37 AM (#5669922)
I see what you mean about the optics of making a decision a month into the season, but there has been little evidence anywhere in the two years previous that Matt Harvey, as currently constructed, is capable of getting hitters out.
I don't have any illusions about Matt Harvey's current/future level of ability. My questioning the decision is more about what the Mets have on-hand at the moment: remember a month before the season started, it looked like they had a ton of depth, with everyone after deGrom and Thor a varying mix of potential and demonstrated ability, basically a crapshoot. But there was significant depth beyond the fifth spot in the rotation at least. With Montero out for the year, and Lugo and Gsellman locked into bullpen roles, they're stuck resorting to PJ Conlon. And I think Harvey's better than *that* at this point.
   71. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: May 10, 2018 at 10:43 AM (#5669926)
With Montero out for the year, and Lugo and Gsellman locked into bullpen roles, they're stuck resorting to PJ Conlon. And I think Harvey's better than *that* at this point.


I don't disagree. They are definitely in a bind. You can evaluate these guys in two ways though. Perhaps they see more upside in an unknown. It does suck that the depth has basically vanished at this point. I'm with you that Harvey is probably better than PJ Conlon, but my guess is the front office/mickey would rather not deal with the Harvey headache anymore. He definitely hasn't done himself any favors.
   72. PreservedFish Posted: May 10, 2018 at 10:56 AM (#5669932)
So true. Hernandez has really devolved into an old person*. Still entertaining at times because of his antics, but not really as knowledgeable about baseball as his reputation suggests.


He's just lazy. Every once in a while he pulls out some quality inside baseball strategy. But just as often he'll literally just say "ooooooooh." He's less windbaggy than late McCarver and I prefer his personality, so I like him, but the same sort of devolution is going on.

Have you read his book, Pure Baseball? Extraordinarily dense guide to strategy. I couldn't get through the 12 pages on what count you should and shouldn't hit & run on.
   73. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: May 10, 2018 at 11:09 AM (#5669944)
I didn't read that one. I read "if at first" when I was a kid and I loved it as a kind of inside baseball gonzo journalism thing.
   74. Adam Starblind Posted: May 10, 2018 at 11:22 AM (#5669955)
I generally have no problem with these guys going out and partying, but it was really bad judgment for Harvey to go out partying all night in LA when his career is literally on the line and he should be making sure he is at all times 100%. I wouldn't be surprised it this was a factor for the team.

The Mets weren't even in LA.
   75. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 10, 2018 at 11:27 AM (#5669961)
With Montero out for the year, and Lugo and Gsellman locked into bullpen roles, they're stuck resorting to PJ Conlon. And I think Harvey's better than *that* at this point.


Well then, unlock those guys from the bullpen roles.
   76. Conor Posted: May 10, 2018 at 12:28 PM (#5670008)
I generally have no problem with these guys going out and partying, but it was really bad judgment for Harvey to go out partying all night in LA when his career is literally on the line and he should be making sure he is at all times 100%. I wouldn't be surprised it this was a factor for the team.

The Mets weren't even in LA.


When I first read the story, I didn't think it was that big a deal, at least according to the person the post quoted, he was sober, so he was just out late a party, not really a big deal. Until I realized that was in LA and the team was in San Diego. And then you look at what Alderson said in the aftermath; I'm sure it wasn't the deciding factor, but it definitely didn't help his case.
   77. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: May 10, 2018 at 01:48 PM (#5670097)
When I first read the story, I didn't think it was that big a deal, at least according to the person the post quoted, he was sober, so he was just out late a party, not really a big deal. Until I realized that was in LA and the team was in San Diego. And then you look at what Alderson said in the aftermath; I'm sure it wasn't the deciding factor, but it definitely didn't help his case.

So Harvey gave up on the Mets? Riggleman might be his ideal manager!

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