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Tuesday, October 01, 2019

Catch-All Pop Culture Extravaganza (October 2019)

Universal released a behind-the-scenes video on the making of Sam Mendes’ upcoming WWI drama 1917, which provides the first look at the way it was uniquely lensed to appear as one continuous take to create a real-time experience.

...

Filming largely on location in England, Mendes and cinematographer Roger Deakins created long takes with camera movement, choreographed to appear as one continuous take for an immersive, real-time experience. Respected director of photography Deakins — who won an Oscar for Blade Runner 2049 and was nominated an additional 13 times — previously worked with Mendes on Skyfall, Revolutionary Road and Jarhead.

Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: October 01, 2019 at 03:56 AM | 532 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: movies, music, off-topic, television, whatever else belongs under the rubric of 'popular culture'

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   1. The Rare Albino Shrieking Goat of Guatemala. Posted: October 01, 2019 at 12:34 PM (#5884960)
1917 - Official Trailer.

I'm sure it will look great and the battle scenes will be intense and it's great that WWI is getting some attention, but the plot looks dumber, more anachronistic and more "Hollywood" than 10 Lasordas.

A WWI palate cleanser.
   2. Swoboda is freedom Posted: October 01, 2019 at 01:25 PM (#5884986)
Best WWI Movies That I have seen. Top 5

Paths of Glory
Lawrence of Arabia
Grand Illusion
All Quiet of the Western Front
Gallipoli or Sgt York
   3. The Rare Albino Shrieking Goat of Guatemala. Posted: October 01, 2019 at 01:59 PM (#5884998)
There's a recent (2015) Gallipoli mini-series that I've got in my Prime queue and have been meaning to watch.

It seems to have gotten pretty good reviews.
   4. Davo Posted: October 01, 2019 at 02:05 PM (#5885002)
September 2019 watchlist:

GREAT
1. Brittany Runs a Marathon (2019, Paul Downs Colaizzo)
2. Happy-Go-Lucky (2008, Mike Leigh)
3. Nuts in May (1976, Mike Leigh)

VERY GOOD
4. Peterloo (2018, Mike Leigh)
5. Career Girls (1997, Mike Leigh)

FINE
6. Mr. Turner (2014, Mike Leigh)
7. Star Wars: Episode II--Attack of the Clones (2002, George Lucas)
8. Possession (1981, Andrzej Zulawski)

NOT GOOD
9. Ad Astra (2019, James Gray)
10. Booksmart (2019, Olivia Wilde)
11. Macgruber (2010, Jorma Taccone)

VERY BAD
12. Escape Room (2019, Adam Robitel)
13. Between Two Ferns: The Movie (2019, Scott Aukerman)
14. Curious George: Royal Monkey (2019, Doug Murphy)
   5. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: October 01, 2019 at 02:38 PM (#5885018)
2. Happy-Go-Lucky (2008, Mike Leigh)
3. Nuts in May (1976, Mike Leigh)
I liked both of these a lot. Nuts in May is a bit more throwaway, but still quite good. Happy Go Lucky is interesting in part because Leigh's original idea was simply to make a movie about a genuinely happy person, and then it grew from there.

Which brings up a question I have. I've been watching a limited run crime series, in which the main investigator is beset by personal demons. You know the one. It got me wondering: is there a limited run crime series (that's not a comedy) in which the main investigator is a generally happy person? Not merely someone who isn't tortured, but someone who's both outwardly and inwardly happy with life? Unhappiness is easier to make dramatic than happiness is, but I'm wondering if anyone has given it a go.
   6. phredbird Posted: October 01, 2019 at 04:18 PM (#5885057)

if you are not watching 'succession', you are not watching the best series streaming today, and you are out of touch with the zeitgeist.

brian cox is one of the best actors in the world right now, and the rest of the cast is dynamite.

that is all.
   7. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: October 01, 2019 at 06:44 PM (#5885123)
brian cox is one of the best actors in the world right now
He was the star of a long series of radio dramas called McLevy, about a detective in Victorian Scotland (in Leith). One of the great pleasures of the series is that McLevy self-indulgently pontificates on the world towards the beginning of each episode, and Cox does a great job of eating these bits alive. It's also wonderful to see him say "bawdy hoose" four or five times in each episode. Also on the radio/audio line, he's a truly fantastic reader of poetry.
   8. chisoxcollector Posted: October 01, 2019 at 07:35 PM (#5885131)
Since I finished my Warren Beatty films so early in September, I decided to squeeze another actor into my Blindspotting project. I watched five Steve Martin films.

Very Good
Parenthood
Dirty Rotten Scoundrels

Good
All of Me

Okay
Little Shop of Horrors

Meh
The Jerk

After watching these films, I’ve come to realize that I don’t like Steve Martin’s schtick. I hated him in both The Jerk and Little Shop of Horrors. Those are the movies that feature him doing zany Steve Martin things. I enjoyed him in the other three films, where he plays a much more normal, and less annoying, person.
   9. The Rare Albino Shrieking Goat of Guatemala. Posted: October 01, 2019 at 07:45 PM (#5885133)
Finally saw The Jerk at a screening at The Castro. Liked it quite a lot* and I'm not a huge fan of Martin (at least much of his early stage persona, he seems a really cool, lovely guy in real life).

*Though I probably put it behind The Man With Two Brains and Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid

Not sure how "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels" falls into the "he plays a much more normal, and less annoying, person". DRS to me is everything I hate about Steve Martin's schtick turned up to 11.

For actual examples of the "Steve Martin as non-annoying human-being-like substance", I'd recommend Roxanne and L.A. Story.
   10. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: October 01, 2019 at 08:07 PM (#5885137)
Spanish Prisoner is peak non wacky Steve Martin.
   11. The Rare Albino Shrieking Goat of Guatemala. Posted: October 01, 2019 at 08:07 PM (#5885138)
2. Happy-Go-Lucky (2008, Mike Leigh)


Eddie Marsan is fantastic in that and Sally Hawkins, well, she's even better.
   12. chisoxcollector Posted: October 01, 2019 at 08:25 PM (#5885150)
Not sure how "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels" falls into the "he plays a much more normal, and less annoying, person". DRS to me is everything I hate about Steve Martin's schtick turned up to 11.


I did debate putting that in a third category by itself, somewhere in between his normal roles and obnoxious roles. I found him much more annoying in The Jerk and Little Shop of Horrors. I guess I can’t stand when he does a stupid voice. He was annoying at times in DRS, but he wasn’t annoying for its entire runtime. Whereas I had a hard time even finishing The Jerk, and wanted to fast forward through his scenes in LSoH.

I’ve seen and enjoyed Roxanne. I still need to see L.A. Story, The Man With Two Brains, and Dead Men Don’t Wear Plaid. I considered all three for the final spot, but stumbled on All of Me streaming free somewhere and just watched that instead.
   13. chisoxcollector Posted: October 01, 2019 at 08:30 PM (#5885156)
Sally Hawkins, well, she's even better.

One of my all-time favorite actresses.
   14. PreservedFish Posted: October 01, 2019 at 09:32 PM (#5885204)
I was thinking about Jason Isbell vs Sturgell Simpson. Elroy says he loves Isbell but can't get into Simpson because of where they reside on the country/rock axis. Me, I have no problem with undiluted country. And I like Simpson and his Waylon Jennings sound and attitude. But I've never been able to listen to Isbell because "sensitive guy with an acoustic guitar" just raises my hackles. I understand that's not giving him fair shake, and it probably doesn't describe all of his material, and am willing to try and work past my own prejudices.
   15. Swoboda is freedom Posted: October 01, 2019 at 10:33 PM (#5885242)
I always like LA Story for non zany Steve Martin (though still comedic). He is great in Little Shop of Horrors in small part. Shop Girl is nice serious movie.
   16. Swoboda is freedom Posted: October 01, 2019 at 10:33 PM (#5885243)
Since I finished my Warren Beatty films so early in September,


Who is up for October?
   17. Swoboda is freedom Posted: October 01, 2019 at 10:38 PM (#5885247)
I would add Bowfinger for a very good/non zany comedy by Martin.
   18. Baldrick Posted: October 01, 2019 at 11:10 PM (#5885303)
I was thinking about Jason Isbell vs Sturgell Simpson. Elroy says he loves Isbell but can't get into Simpson because of where they reside on the country/rock axis. Me, I have no problem with undiluted country. And I like Simpson and his Waylon Jennings sound and attitude. But I've never been able to listen to Isbell because "sensitive guy with an acoustic guitar" just raises my hackles. I understand that's not giving him fair shake, and it probably doesn't describe all of his material, and am willing to try and work past my own prejudices.

I would say that only really applies to Southeastern, and not even all of that. On most of his stuff you definitely get the sense that he's a guy who used to be in the Drive-By Truckers. Check out his Live in Alabama album if you want something more muscular. It rocks.
   19. BrianBrianson Posted: October 02, 2019 at 03:50 AM (#5885352)
I was about to say I didn't think I'd seen any WWI movies, but of course, I've actually seen Wonder Woman. I feel like I must've had to for school (since WWI is seen as so formative for Canada), but I can't recall any. Perhaps I'm lucky I went through ninth grade history before Paul Gross got his hands on Passchendaele, which I assume allowed him to be crazy self-indulgent.

I do feel like the 4th season of Black Adder is probably "enough", it certainly conveys the gut-punch better than I think a "straight" performance could.
   20. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: October 02, 2019 at 04:17 AM (#5885354)
if you are not watching 'succession', you are not watching the best series streaming today, and you are out of touch with the zeitgeist.

brian cox is one of the best actors in the world right now, and the rest of the cast is dynamite.


I am watching it, but I'm not entirely sure why. It's not that it's not good - it's very good! - it's that I'm not sure what I'm getting out of it. The casual horridness of the uber-wealthy is a good enough theme, and there are some funny moments, but I'm still not sure why it makes a TV show instead of a movie. (Plus, I really hate the theme music.) You're correct, the cast is almost uniformly terrific.

I read that Cox is on Broadway as LBJ. Superficially he definitely doesn't have the look, but the review I saw was glowing.
   21. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: October 02, 2019 at 04:19 AM (#5885355)
Best WWI Movies That I have seen. Top 5

Paths of Glory
Lawrence of Arabia
Grand Illusion
All Quiet of the Western Front
Gallipoli or Sgt York


Biggles: Adventures in Time once again cruelly overlooked. I must have read at least 30 different Biggles books in my youth.
   22. Greg K Posted: October 02, 2019 at 06:52 AM (#5885356)
Perhaps I'm lucky I went through ninth grade history before Paul Gross got his hands on Passchendaele, which I assume allowed him to be crazy self-indulgent.

Wow are you ever right.

At one point Paul Gross' character gets blown up on a battlefield and literally finds himself stuck on a cross of debris.

And despite the name, most of the movie seems to take place in Alberta.
   23. chisoxcollector Posted: October 02, 2019 at 07:04 AM (#5885357)
Who is up for October?

Clint Eastwood. I’m definitely watching High Plains Drifter, The Outlaw Josey Wales, and Dirty Harry. For the last two spots, I’m considering Escape from Alcatraz, In the Line of Fire, Thunderbolt and Lightfoot, Where Eagles Dare, and Kelly’s Heroes. I own Escape from Alcatraz and In the Line of Fire on blu-ray, so I may pick those out of convenience.

I’ve seen the Man With No Name trilogy, Unforgiven, and Million Dollar Baby, which is why those aren’t under consideration.

I have a Letterboxd list at the link below showing what I’ve already watched for this project, as well as what’s coming for the rest of the year.

Letterboxd Link
   24. Swoboda is freedom Posted: October 02, 2019 at 07:49 AM (#5885360)
Clint Eastwood. I’m definitely watching High Plains Drifter, The Outlaw Josey Wales, and Dirty Harry. For the last two spots, I’m considering Escape from Alcatraz, In the Line of Fire, Thunderbolt and Lightfoot, Where Eagles Dare, and Kelly’s Heroes. I own Escape from Alcatraz and In the Line of Fire on blu-ray, so I may pick those out of convenience.


Definitely do in the Line of Fire. Great movie. I would eliminate Kelly. Not so great. The other 3 are good.
   25. bunyon Posted: October 02, 2019 at 08:56 AM (#5885367)
The casual horridness of the uber-wealthy is a good enough theme,

I HATE watching horrible people. I don't mind a horrible person in the midst of good and average. But when everyone is horrible, it just sucks all the joy out of it for me, no matter how good the writing and acting.
   26. BrianBrianson Posted: October 02, 2019 at 09:22 AM (#5885374)
Well, I really, really, really liked Due South, but you could feel it creeping in by the end of that. Men with Brooms is generally good, but I find Gross a bit distracting in it. Gunless was alright ... but the same. H2O: The Last Prime Minister - yeah. So, from context, it seemed really obvious it'd be obnoxious in Passchendaele.

Like, I do almost feel I should watch it anyways, for ethnic reasons. But ... having my suspicions about it confirmed, maybe I can keep passing.
   27. Greg Pope Posted: October 02, 2019 at 09:40 AM (#5885380)
I HATE watching horrible people. I don't mind a horrible person in the midst of good and average. But when everyone is horrible, it just sucks all the joy out of it for me, no matter how good the writing and acting.

I feel the same way. I started watching Schitt's Creek, but stopped after a couple of episodes. Should I skip Succession?
   28. PreservedFish Posted: October 02, 2019 at 10:19 AM (#5885389)
Judging from his album covers, Willie Nelson did not grow a beard until 1973. He was 40 years old.
   29. Greg K Posted: October 02, 2019 at 10:26 AM (#5885394)
I find the rise of Schitt's Creek remarkable.

I think I saw 5 minutes of it several years ago, and assumed it would be like so many other failed attempts by the CBC to bring over-the-hill Canadian stars back to relevance.

When I heard it was up for awards at the Emmys this year I was shocked it hadn't been cancelled years ago, never mind picked up in the States.
   30. Greg K Posted: October 02, 2019 at 10:29 AM (#5885396)
I think Paul Gross' self-importance actual works to his advantage in Slings & Arrows, which is one of my favourite Canadian shows. Don McKellar is especially great in it (which is good since, as you know, Canadian law mandates that Don McKellar be in all Canadian programs).
   31. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: October 02, 2019 at 10:30 AM (#5885397)
I think Schitt's Creek is a bit overrated, but that's not at all about horrible people. Flawed? Sure. But I'd dump it in the bucket of "almost everybody is essentially nice, just with different weird facades" style of comedy that, say, PnR was in.
   32. Baldrick Posted: October 02, 2019 at 11:42 AM (#5885420)
Slings & Arrows

One of my all-time favorite shows. Not all the bits work, but the show as a whole is just astonishingly good.
   33. flournoy Posted: October 02, 2019 at 11:52 AM (#5885424)
I HATE watching horrible people. I don't mind a horrible person in the midst of good and average. But when everyone is horrible, it just sucks all the joy out of it for me, no matter how good the writing and acting.


I felt this way about Mad Men. No idea if I'm alone in that or not.
   34. jmurph Posted: October 02, 2019 at 01:40 PM (#5885473)
Steven Hyden's top 60 Wilco songs, worthwhile mainly for lots of links to live performances and videos I've never seen.
   35. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: October 02, 2019 at 02:03 PM (#5885485)
For actual examples of the "Steve Martin as non-annoying human-being-like substance", I'd recommend Roxanne and L.A. Story.


Did anyone see "Novocaine"? That was another one with Martin in a departure-kind of the inverse of his manipulation in "Spanish Prisoner'.
   36. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 02, 2019 at 02:08 PM (#5885488)
I felt this way about Mad Men. No idea if I'm alone in that or not.

That was exactly my wife's and my reaction. After about 3 episodes of season 1, we were both like "We hate all these people, why are we watching them?"
   37. phredbird Posted: October 02, 2019 at 02:19 PM (#5885497)

The casual horridness of the uber-wealthy is a good enough theme,

I HATE watching horrible people. I don't mind a horrible person in the midst of good and average. But when everyone is horrible, it just sucks all the joy out of it for me, no matter how good the writing and acting.


I felt this way about Mad Men. No idea if I'm alone in that or not.



seriously?

did you all hate the sopranos? there was not a single sympathetic character in that whole show except maybe the pyschotherapist who warned carmela.

in case you haven't noticed, the crisis of postmodernity is the fact that complicity and critique live side by side. no one is safe.

the character of greg on succession is a good case in point. the boy has a conscience, but he is almost powerless -- his privilege only carries him so far in that group -- and doesn't know what to do.

in the case of mad men, don draper does a lot of sleazy things -- hell, he's in advertising -- but he was also someone who was groping towards self-awareness. he was not one-dimensional, and really nor was anybody else on that show.

not everybody turns out the way you want them to. expecting that from entertainment is why so much entertainment sucks. it's mostly pandering, with the exception of shows like succession that (so far) doesn't pull punches.

eh, i get it. we like what we like ... to each his own.

but if you're not watching 'succession', you're missing one of the most hilarious subplots ever -- the interaction between kieran culkin and j. smith-cameron. it's a riot.
   38. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 02, 2019 at 02:25 PM (#5885499)
did you all hate the sopranos? there was not a single sympathetic character in that whole show except maybe the pyschotherapist who warned carmela.

I think I liked most of the major characters more than anyone in Mad Men.

The Sopranos characters did bad things because they were born and raised in a totally dysfunctional sub-culture, where normal moral rules don't apply. Did you not get the point of all the flashbacks to Tony's effed up childhood?

The Mad Men characters were seemingly normal everyday people who did bad things because they were ########.

not everybody turns out the way you want them to. expecting that from entertainment is why so much entertainment sucks.

Villains are interesting characters, but they need a hero as a foil. It's like the whole basic structure of drama since ancient Greece. Protagonist, Antagonist, Conflict, Resolution.
   39. jmurph Posted: October 02, 2019 at 02:27 PM (#5885500)
Yeah I can't imagine watching Mad Men and thinking "these are all horrible people." Peggy Olson is probably my favorite television character of all time.
   40. Swoboda is freedom Posted: October 02, 2019 at 02:27 PM (#5885501)
I felt this way about Mad Men. No idea if I'm alone in that or not.


I think Peggy was supposed to be the good person. Joan had her struggles, but we saw she was a person who usually acted honorably. For all of Don's troubles, the arc was towards being good. Roger was always likable, though not to be married to.
   41. Nasty Nate Posted: October 02, 2019 at 02:28 PM (#5885502)
Were the bad things done by the Mad Mean people remotely close in badness to what the characters on the Sopranos did?
   42. jmurph Posted: October 02, 2019 at 02:30 PM (#5885504)
After about 3 episodes of season 1

With respect snapper, it's a little difficult to take your opinion on something seriously if you didn't actually watch it?
   43. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 02, 2019 at 02:31 PM (#5885505)
Yeah I can't imagine watching Mad Men and thinking "these are all horrible people." Peggy Olson is probably my favorite television character of all time.

Didn't she have a fling with a married guy in like episode one? Note: I only watched like 3 or 4 episodes.

Were the bad things done by the Mad Mean people remotely close in badness to what the characters on the Sopranos did?

No, but why does that matter?
   44. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 02, 2019 at 02:34 PM (#5885507)
With respect snapper, it's a little difficult to take your opinion on something seriously if you didn't actually watch it?

I'm not commenting on the quality of the show, simply that no one was likable, so I stopped watching. Their bad behavior wasn't even really explicable.

I understood why Tony Soprano killed people. I didn't understand why everyone in Mad men was an #######. I found them unpleasant and uninteresting.

Ooooh, you're bored with your wife so you want to screw every secretary. Boring. You've got some existential angst about your father, or growing old, or some other BS, so you're a serial liar and adulterer. Boring. Post-war navel gazing male American writers (Mailer, Updike, Roth) etc., did this schtick to death. That was boring too.
   45. Nasty Nate Posted: October 02, 2019 at 02:38 PM (#5885510)
Were the bad things done by the Mad Mean people remotely close in badness to what the characters on the Sopranos did?


No, but why does that matter?
It doesn't necessarily. If you don't like the characters, you don't like them.

But if very bad things caused by an extremely dysfunctional backgrounds are OK (in the sense of character likability), it would seem likely that mildly bad things caused by mildly dysfunctional backgrounds are also "OK." But I understand that it's not really a math question, and I'm not arguing that one group of characters should be more likable than another. It's viewer preference which doesn't really need to be justified.
   46. jmurph Posted: October 02, 2019 at 02:41 PM (#5885511)
Ooooh, you're bored with your wife so you want to screw every secretary. Boring. You've got some existential angst about your father, or growing old, or some other BS, so you're a serial liar and adulterer. Boring. Post-war navel gazing male American writers (Mailer, Updike, Roth) etc., did this schtick to death. That was boring too.

It's not that I'm saying you can't think those things, it's that those things don't describe the show Mad Men.
   47. phredbird Posted: October 02, 2019 at 02:41 PM (#5885513)

I think I liked most of the major characters more than anyone in Mad Men.


mobsters. cool. those rascals. it was society's fault.


Villains are interesting characters, but they need a hero as a foil.


sez who? oh, i forget. you know all about art because ... you know what is good. you didn't even have to watch mad men to critique it.

and i am extremely skeptical that you have ever actually watched a greek tragedy. it would bore you.


Were the bad things done by the Mad Mean people remotely close in badness to what the characters on the Sopranos did?

No, but why does that matter?


uh, cuz maybe killing and maiming are a little worse than torpedoing an ad campaign?

   48. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 02, 2019 at 02:43 PM (#5885514)
It doesn't necessarily. If you don't like the characters, you don't like them.

But if very bad things caused by an extremely dysfunctional backgrounds are OK (in the sense of character likability), it would seem likely that mildly bad things caused by mildly dysfunctional backgrounds are also "OK." But I understand that it's not really a math question, and I'm not arguing that one group of characters should be more likable than another. It's viewer preference which doesn't really need to be justified.


It's really the fact that the behavior is understandable, not that it's OK. I could probably see myself doing some of the evil #### Tony Soprano did if I grew up in his world. I can't see myself being as shitty as the Mad Men characters based on their fairly mild problems.

I also don't think something like cheating on your wife with the 18 y.o. secretary as mildly bad.
   49. Nasty Nate Posted: October 02, 2019 at 02:47 PM (#5885516)
I also don't think something like cheating on your wife with the 18 y.o. secretary as mildly bad.
I meant compared to the Sopranos characters.
   50. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 02, 2019 at 02:47 PM (#5885518)
and i am extremely skeptical that you have ever actually watched a greek tragedy. it would bore you.

I read quite a few back in college. I two two whole classes on Ancient Greek literature and arts. Oedipus and Antigone I definitely remember, and neither was remotely boring.

mobsters. cool. those rascals. it was society's fault.

No, but their behavior is explicable as an integral part of their world. The Mad Men guys were on top of the world. Part of the 1% before that term existed. They had no particular reason to do bad things, but did them anyway.

   51. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 02, 2019 at 02:50 PM (#5885519)
I meant compared to the Sopranos characters.

Yeah, it's not a completely rational ethical calculation. It was just my visceral reaction to the characters, that I shared with fluornoy.
   52. phredbird Posted: October 02, 2019 at 02:50 PM (#5885520)
and i am extremely skeptical that you have ever actually watched a greek tragedy. it would bore you.

I read quite a few back in college. I two two whole classes on Ancient Greek literature and arts. Oedipus and Antigone I definitely remember, and neither was remotely boring.

mobsters. cool. those rascals. it was society's fault.

No, but their behavior is explicable as an integral part of their world. The Mad Men guys were on top of the world. Part of the 1% before that term existed. They had no reason to do bad things, but did them anyway.



oy. two whole classes.

skip it.
   53. Nasty Nate Posted: October 02, 2019 at 03:03 PM (#5885524)
This thread turned weird. 2 classes on Greek stuff seems like the 95% percentile or higher. And who cares if someone else doesn't like the Mad Men characters?
   54. gef, talking mongoose & vexatious litigant Posted: October 02, 2019 at 03:14 PM (#5885527)
Lest I be mistaken for some sort of self-styled hipster or anything of the sort, I feel compelled to mention my vast enjoyment of Empire Records, having watched it twice in about a week (first was streaming, second the Remix! Special Fan Edition disc).

Not sure how I missed it when it undoubtedly showed at the 2nd-run theater in North Little Rock way back when, since god knows for 50 cents or $1 I took in more than my share of teen comedies there (Road Trip, American Pie, She's All That, 10 Things I Hate About You & of course the sainted Dazed & Confused ... I had no shame then & have none now).

I've owned it on VHS for about 15 years but never got around to screening it, then a couple of weeks chanced across a fan video on YouTube for The The's This is the Day consisting of scenes from the film, which made it look really engaging. Which it was.

Great soundtrack, too.

This is the Day itself I somehow managed to miss for some 3.5 decades, till it played a somewhat pivotal role in a far more recent teen sf flick, Every Day, I caught about 3 months ago.

   55. gef, talking mongoose & vexatious litigant Posted: October 02, 2019 at 03:15 PM (#5885528)
Also, having finished it earlier this week, I can note that Bone Tomahawk is a helluva movie, despite its dire lack of '90s indie rock.

   56. gef, talking mongoose & vexatious litigant Posted: October 02, 2019 at 03:18 PM (#5885529)
And who cares if someone else doesn't like the Mad Men characters?


And I can't imagine caring about that series, or The Sopranos, or any other TV series mentioned on this page. As has been noted, we all have different tastes.
   57. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: October 02, 2019 at 03:20 PM (#5885531)
novocaine was a bit disappointing, but ok. bowfinger is pretty good, maybe his last good movie? (so nothing he's done this century.)

anyone else intrigued by the rudy ray moore biopic? it seems like a _perfect_ role for murphy, though i imagine it's been sanitized a bit.

somewhat similarly (different kind of movie, but, so long as i'm askin') - has anyone seen the new chris morris flick, the day shall come?

not liking the mad men / 9fill in the show name here) thing isn't that uncommon. go on hatin', haters, like what you like.
as for me, i don't mind cringe comedy or media with largely unlikable characters -- though i also rarely "identify" with characters either, which strikes me as the opposite side of that same coin.
   58. The Rare Albino Shrieking Goat of Guatemala. Posted: October 02, 2019 at 03:29 PM (#5885535)
though i imagine it's been sanitized a bit.


From what I've read, yeah, just a wee bit.
   59. PreservedFish Posted: October 02, 2019 at 03:41 PM (#5885540)
oy. two whole classes.

skip it.


Wait, what the ####? Do you need to take a graduate level seminar in Greek tragedy in order to discuss modern television around here?
   60. PreservedFish Posted: October 02, 2019 at 03:48 PM (#5885544)
"and i am extremely skeptical that you have ever actually watched a greek tragedy" is an I Am Very Smart level insult.
   61. Lassus Posted: October 02, 2019 at 03:50 PM (#5885545)
Regarding unlikeable characters ruining a work, there have been a couple of books I've just stopped reading due to this. Memorably more than one of Vollman's, and one I'd have to consult the archives on. It was something popular, but I couldn't bear anyone in it.
   62. Nasty Nate Posted: October 02, 2019 at 03:54 PM (#5885548)
Do you need to take a graduate level seminar in Greek tragedy in order to discuss modern television around here?
MORE THAN ONE!
   63. PreservedFish Posted: October 02, 2019 at 04:04 PM (#5885554)
Regarding unlikeable characters ruining a work, there have been a couple of books I've just stopped reading due to this. Memorably more than one of Vollman's, and one I'd have to consult the archives on. It was something popular, but I couldn't bear anyone in it.


Before I respond to this, can you tell me how familiar you are with the arguments in Aristotle's Poetics?
   64. jmurph Posted: October 02, 2019 at 04:09 PM (#5885556)
Regarding unlikeable characters ruining a work, there have been a couple of books I've just stopped reading due to this. Memorably more than one of Vollman's, and one I'd have to consult the archives on. It was something popular, but I couldn't bear anyone in it.

I usually try to fight through this, but the time that comes to mind that was really a problem for me was A Confederacy of Dunces (not that I needed to like him, but I ####### hated him). To this day that book's supposed charms are completely lost on me.
   65. gef, talking mongoose & vexatious litigant Posted: October 02, 2019 at 04:19 PM (#5885564)
"and i am extremely skeptical that you have ever actually watched a greek tragedy" is an I Am Very Smart level insult.


Depends on whether it was in the original Greek & staged accordingly.
   66. Lassus Posted: October 02, 2019 at 04:21 PM (#5885568)
Before I respond to this, can you tell me how familiar you are with the arguments in Aristotle's Poetics?

I just assumed bringing up William T. Vollmann was enough.

But MAN, I wish I could remember the one that was the revelation bit. The one I actually put the book down and was all "Holy crap, I don't have to read this any more."
   67. gef, talking mongoose & vexatious litigant Posted: October 02, 2019 at 04:35 PM (#5885572)
But MAN, I wish I could remember the one that was the revelation bit. The one I actually put the book down and was all "Holy crap, I don't have to read this any more.


That happened to me with Heinlein's Glory Road* &, a year or so later, Alfred Bester's The Computer Connection. For all I know, Bester, an extremely skilled wordsmith, was deliberately making his hero an insufferably smug Heinleinian know-it-all. If so, it worked only too well.


*This was in 1978, I'm pretty sure, & other than re-reading The Puppet Masters a few months back (turns out a considerably expanded version came out in the early '90s, & I'd only just found out about it) I've been unable to look at anything else of his.
   68. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: October 02, 2019 at 04:50 PM (#5885583)
the character of greg on succession is a good case in point. the boy has a conscience, but he is almost powerless -- his privilege only carries him so far in that group -- and doesn't know what to do.


I mean . . . Greg probably does know what to do, right? He needs to get out. He has the perfect negative role model in Tom, someone who didn't live his entire life with the Roys' wealth, but who's both revelling and floundering in their slipstream. Conspicuous consumption, casual cruelty, a willingness to completely debase himself if he thinks it'll help him fit in. If Greg were a moral person, he would stop spending his life with these people - none of whom are in his age range, unless I'm misjudging - and either take the work and wave to them in the corridors once in a while, or just accept that Waystar isn't for him, even if that means he doesn't get a free Manhattan bachelor pad.

From the Roys' point of view, Greg not being on their private jets and corporate getaways basically means he ceases to exist to them anyway. Allowing himself to be complicit in their games seems like him walking down the path Tom's laid out for him.

I guess maybe this isn't the best topic for the thread? I re-watched Margin Call at the weekend - man, that's a good movie.
   69. yo la tengo Posted: October 02, 2019 at 05:01 PM (#5885593)
I am kind of surprised by how hot the conversation about Succession got. I have not seen a minute of it, just the ads and it does not appeal to me. I am sympathetic to the idea that unlikeable characters detract from enjoyment of art. I tried watching Fleabag and after two episodes disliked the main character so much I could not muster the energy to care about what happened to her. Am I a bad person for that?
   70. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: October 02, 2019 at 05:18 PM (#5885600)
I thought Fleabag was more watchable, partly because there are more instances where we feel she's in the right (many involving Olivia Colman's character), both the seasons and the episodes are shorter, and there's a mini-mystery for the viewer to uncover throughout the plot of season 1 that goes some way to shedding light on the character retrospectively. But I didn't go on to season 2, so I guess I'm not particularly invested either.
   71. Greg Pope Posted: October 02, 2019 at 07:32 PM (#5885626)
I usually try to fight through this, but the time that comes to mind that was really a problem for me was A Confederacy of Dunces (not that I needed to like him, but I ####### hated him). To this day that book's supposed charms are completely lost on me.

Another good example. From what I've read, the greatness of that book is its portrayal of New Orleans. But I had a hard time getting through the book because Reilly just does a whole bunch of selfish, self-unaware stuff and ruins good people. So I didn't like it.
   72. Greg K Posted: October 02, 2019 at 11:27 PM (#5885773)
If Greg were a moral person, he would stop spending his life with these people...

I haven't seen the show in question, so most of that went over my head, but I feel like this is one of those moments where some divine figure steps into the body of the person speaking and delivers a message directly to me.
   73. BrianBrianson Posted: October 03, 2019 at 03:47 AM (#5885791)
Alright, I'll try to look up Slings & Arrows. I'm sold.
   74. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: October 03, 2019 at 08:00 AM (#5885797)
I haven't seen the show in question, so most of that went over my head, but I feel like this is one of those moments where some divine figure steps into the body of the person speaking and delivers a message directly to me.


Not you, the other Greg.

[reads 71]

Not the other Greg, the other other Greg.
   75. jmurph Posted: October 03, 2019 at 09:31 AM (#5885805)
re: Fleabag: the best tv show in the past few years for me, I think it's brilliant. If you at all enjoyed season 1 I would definitely encourage you to do the second season, which I thought was better. But yeah, if you did not enjoy it right away I doubt it would grow on you, I think it's pretty much fully formed right from the beginning.
   76. manchestermets Posted: October 03, 2019 at 11:15 AM (#5885846)
I predict that snapper would like the characters in Fleabag less than he likes the murderers in The Sopranos.
   77. Baldrick Posted: October 03, 2019 at 01:10 PM (#5885922)
I have spent a lot of time in my life with awful characters, anti-heroes, etc. I'm just done with it. Life is too short, and the stuff I read for my professional life is so grim. I don't need my fiction to be fully bowdlerized, but I definitely need to encounter characters I can genuinely root for.

On a perhaps related note, I basically haven't watched any of the prestige TV shows of the past fifteen years. I'm sure they're as great as everyone says, but I just don't have any interest. Shrug.
   78. gef, talking mongoose & vexatious litigant Posted: October 03, 2019 at 02:33 PM (#5885984)
On a perhaps related note, I basically haven't watched any of the prestige TV shows of the past fifteen years. I'm sure they're as great as everyone says, but I just don't have any interest. Shrug.


Has anyone ever seen you & me in the same room at the same time?
   79. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 03, 2019 at 02:39 PM (#5885988)
On a perhaps related note, I basically haven't watched any of the prestige TV shows of the past fifteen years. I'm sure they're as great as everyone says, but I just don't have any interest. Shrug.
Likewise. Everything from the Sopranos to 24 to Lost to The Wire to Breaking Bad to House of Cards to Game of Thrones...haven't seen a minute. I don't think I'm a contrarian by nature, but for whatever reason I get actively turned off when people care so damn much about a TV show. It's just a TV show, people.
   80. jmurph Posted: October 03, 2019 at 02:45 PM (#5885992)
Likewise. Everything from the Sopranos to 24 to Lost to The Wire to Breaking Bad to House of Cards to Game of Thrones...haven't seen a minute. I don't think I'm a contrarian by nature, but for whatever reason I get actively turned off when people care so damn much about a TV show. It's just a TV show, people.

To each his own, of course, but I do just want to gently mock you here for your extreme interests in the relative merits of today's pop music. So, uhhhhhh...
   81. gef, talking mongoose & vexatious litigant Posted: October 03, 2019 at 02:57 PM (#5885997)
e. Everything from the Sopranos to 24 to Lost to The Wire to Breaking Bad to House of Cards to Game of Thrones...haven't seen a minute. I don't think I'm a contrarian by nature, but for whatever reason I get actively turned off when people care so damn much about a TV show. It's just a TV show, people.


The Game of Thrones squealing fangirlishness around here (& elsewhere) is definitely off-putting, but the fantasy genre per se does nothing for me, so I wouldn't have ever watched it anyway. Same with the others -- not the fantasy part, but the no interest in the subject matter part. So it goes.

Well, except probably for Lost. I've never seen it, but that sort of thing is theoretically right up my alley. Trouble is, so are several, several dozen other shows out there with a paranormal/mystery/whatever bent that I've also never gotten around to exploring.
   82. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: October 03, 2019 at 03:34 PM (#5886012)
Not sure I'd want to shun and ignore the whole list of selfish, hurtful, awful characters and vicious anti-heroes. A skeletally partial list ranges from Seinfeld to The Godfather to The Great Gatsby to Peanuts to Omar Little (et al) to Citizen Kane to Animal House to Lolita to Fawlty Towers to Double Indemnity to Network to Goodfellas to R. Crumb to Do the Right Thing to Catcher in the Rye to Chinatown to The Wizard of Oz to Looney Tunes to Once Upon a Time in the West to Amadeus to Ignatz Mouse to Dr. Strangelove to Raging Bull to The Simpsons (numerous) to Hunter S. Thompson to Megg & Mogg to A Clockwork Orange to Calvin & Hobbes to Borat to Gone With the Wind to Batman to Vertigo to Crime & Punishment to Unforgiven to Married with Children to Ric Flair, Paul Heyman, Roddy Piper, CM Punk (very etc) to Taxi Driver to Louie DePalma to Pulp Fiction to The Good Bad & Ugly to Sgt Bilko to The Office UK to Apocalypse Now to Casablanca to The Social Network to Deadwood to 75% of Shakespeare's tragedies to Oscar the Grouch.
   83. Tom Nawrocki Posted: October 03, 2019 at 03:56 PM (#5886027)
A skeletally partial list ranges from Seinfeld to The Godfather to The Great Gatsby to Peanuts to Omar Little (et al) to Citizen Kane to Animal House to Lolita to Fawlty Towers to Double Indemnity to Network to Goodfellas to R. Crumb to Do the Right Thing to Catcher in the Rye to Chinatown to The Wizard of Oz to Looney Tunes to Once Upon a Time in the West to Amadeus to Ignatz Mouse to Dr. Strangelove to Raging Bull to The Simpsons (numerous) to Hunter S. Thompson to Megg & Mogg to A Clockwork Orange to Calvin & Hobbes to Borat to Gone With the Wind to Batman to Vertigo to Crime & Punishment to Unforgiven to Married with Children to Ric Flair, Paul Heyman, Roddy Piper, CM Punk (very etc) to Taxi Driver to Louie DePalma to Pulp Fiction to The Good Bad & Ugly to Sgt Bilko to The Office UK to Apocalypse Now to Casablanca to The Social Network to Deadwood to 75% of Shakespeare's tragedies to Oscar the Grouch.


Yeah, but Borat was overrated.
   84. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 03, 2019 at 04:03 PM (#5886033)
Likewise. Everything from the Sopranos to 24 to Lost to The Wire to Breaking Bad to House of Cards to Game of Thrones...haven't seen a minute.

I would heartily recommend the British "House of Cards" from the 1990s. The one with Ian Richardson.

Really, really good.
   85. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 03, 2019 at 04:22 PM (#5886045)
To each his own, of course, but I do just want to gently mock you here for your extreme interests in the relative merits of today's pop music. So, uhhhhhh...
That's fair, and of course I emphasize music a lot more because I'm a music guy. Film guys emphasize movies more, etc. etc. But I don't think there's any necessary conflict in saying "I don't get why people get so obsessed over TV shows, even ones that I'm sure are well done in their genre" and "Today's pop music is more uniformly and aggressively mindless than in the past."
   86. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 03, 2019 at 04:29 PM (#5886050)
Reflecting a little more on this, I think a big part of what alienates me about those kinds of shows -- and why I don't celebrate that such "high-quality" shows are immensely popular the way I would if "high-quality" music was immensely popular -- is that, from what I hear/read, what makes people so obsessive over the shows is generally soap opera type stuff. "OMG, I can't believe they killed off this character," "So-and-so was a bad guy all along??" etc. Am I totally wrong about that?
   87. Commissioner Bud Black Beltre Hillman Fred Posted: October 03, 2019 at 04:40 PM (#5886055)
I guess the other side of that thinking would be, if so many people are getting so excited about "just a TV show" .... maybe it's not "just a TV show"? I'm not trying to give Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Wire etc.. more weight than they deserve, or to say that Chase/Gilligan/Simon revolutionized culture, but the reason everyone got so excited in the first place was that Sopranos et all were doing something very different than the standard 90s network (or even cable) fare. If you've seen Twin Peaks, Homicide or NYPD Blue, fair enough, you get the gist -- but rejecting the 'prestige' stuff based on typical 90s TV would be like rejecting Scorsese/Di Palma movies based on a dislike for the prior studio system.

Or maybe you're just a music guy!
   88. Nasty Nate Posted: October 03, 2019 at 04:40 PM (#5886057)
is that, from what I hear/read, what makes people so obsessive over the shows is generally soap opera type stuff. "OMG, I can't believe they killed off this character," "So-and-so was a bad guy all along??" etc. Am I totally wrong about that?
It depends. You're kind of conflating the "high-quality" shows with the immensely popular ones. There is only some overlap.
   89. Commissioner Bud Black Beltre Hillman Fred Posted: October 03, 2019 at 04:44 PM (#5886059)
[86] Eh, I think you're (a) overgeneralizing from Thrones and Lost, and (b) conflating the stuff that people talk about around the watercooler with the stuff that makes the shows actually good. There are certainly shows that could be described as soaps with fancy production values, but that's far from the norm.
   90. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 03, 2019 at 04:53 PM (#5886061)
I guess the other side of that thinking would be, if so many people are getting so excited about "just a TV show" .... maybe it's not "just a TV show"? I'm not trying to give Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Wire etc.. more weight than they deserve, or to say that Chase/Gilligan/Simon revolutionized culture, but the reason everyone got so excited in the first place was that Sopranos et all were doing something very different than the standard 90s network (or even cable) fare. If you've seen Twin Peaks, Homicide or NYPD Blue, fair enough, you get the gist -- but rejecting the 'prestige' stuff based on typical 90s TV would be like rejecting Scorsese/Di Palma movies based on a dislike for the prior studio system.
Yeah, also a fair point. But - also tying in #89 - is what makes these shows popular also what makes them good? From an outsider's perspective, it just seems like people get really invested in what happens to fictional characters, which is just a very odd thing to care so much about. I mean, of course to be interested in any work of fiction, you kind of have to care about what happens to the characters to some extent, but enough to talk constantly about them week after week for years?
   91. jmurph Posted: October 03, 2019 at 04:59 PM (#5886066)
I think it's important to note that The Wire was not even remotely popular. Basically no one, relatively speaking, watched Mad Men or Breaking Bad. Like, literally low single millions per week for most of these shows, they were just critically acclaimed, talked/written about a LOT by people who had a platform to discuss pop culture.
   92. gef, talking mongoose & vexatious litigant Posted: October 03, 2019 at 05:02 PM (#5886067)
The TV shows I've regularly & avidly followed over the years, up till around the turn of the century, covered a pretty wide area -- from ThirtySomething to X-Files, Buffy to Homicide: Life on the Streets, Party of Five to Keen Eddie, Freaks & Geeks to Law & Order, I'll Fly Away to Home Front, Wonderfalls to Dawson's Creek, Days & Nights of Molly Dodd to L.A. Law, Chicago Hope to Felicity, Gilmore Girls to American Gothic, Ally McBeal to Life Goes On, My So-Called Life to Sweet Justice, & loads of others -- so it's actually not a matter of a having particularly narrow field of interest, I'd say. Maybe I'm just loath to commit these days; Rizzoli & Isles (now done) & Stranger Things seem to have sated my interest in series viewing for the time being, though I've still got to watch the final season of Haven.

   93. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 03, 2019 at 05:03 PM (#5886070)
Huh, yeah, I thought those shows were way more popular than they apparently were. What are lots of people actually watching - the Kardashians?
   94. gef, talking mongoose & vexatious litigant Posted: October 03, 2019 at 05:06 PM (#5886072)
Huh, yeah, I thought those shows were way more popular than they apparently were. What are lots of people actually watching - the Kardashians?


Apparently so. And I guess lots of shows about cooking & remodeling houses.

To dredge up an old motto of mine, people are stupid & they should be shot.
   95. Hot Wheeling American Posted: October 03, 2019 at 05:10 PM (#5886073)
Generally speaking, (i) a ton of stuff on CBS; (ii) Da Bachelor (or maybe that, too, benefits from having pop culture influencers discuss it); (iii) The Office and Friends on Netflix; and (iv) Dancing With the Stars and The Voice, maybe?
   96. Baldrick Posted: October 03, 2019 at 05:36 PM (#5886086)
A skeletally partial list ranges from Seinfeld to The Godfather to The Great Gatsby to Peanuts to Omar Little (et al) to Citizen Kane to Animal House to Lolita to Fawlty Towers to Double Indemnity to Network to Goodfellas to R. Crumb to Do the Right Thing to Catcher in the Rye to Chinatown to The Wizard of Oz to Looney Tunes to Once Upon a Time in the West to Amadeus to Ignatz Mouse to Dr. Strangelove to Raging Bull to The Simpsons (numerous) to Hunter S. Thompson to Megg & Mogg to A Clockwork Orange to Calvin & Hobbes to Borat to Gone With the Wind to Batman to Vertigo to Crime & Punishment to Unforgiven to Married with Children to Ric Flair, Paul Heyman, Roddy Piper, CM Punk (very etc) to Taxi Driver to Louie DePalma to Pulp Fiction to The Good Bad & Ugly to Sgt Bilko to The Office UK to Apocalypse Now to Casablanca to The Social Network to Deadwood to 75% of Shakespeare's tragedies to Oscar the Grouch.

I'll make exceptions for writers as good as Shakespeare and Fitzgerald. If you can put that sort of spin on your fastball, I'll absolutely sit with you as you dig into Macbeth's descent into madness or the banality of Nick Caraway's evil.

Casablanca is filled with relatable, sympathetic characters! Flawed, yes, but extremely sympathetic. And the idea that Calvin, Hobbes, the parents, Suzy, etc. aren't sympathetic characters is bonkers.

Just about everything else in that list that I enjoy is a comedy, which A) are different from dramas in some pretty obvious and significant ways, but also B) I increasingly have grown bored with 'look at this hilarious assemblage of terrible people!' shows, too.
   97. phredbird Posted: October 03, 2019 at 07:05 PM (#5886119)
This thread turned weird. 2 classes on Greek stuff seems like the 95% percentile or higher. And who cares if someone else doesn't like the Mad Men characters?


ultimately i don't, i'm just doing the internet blowhard thing like all us other basement dwellers.

Wait, what the ####? Do you need to take a graduate level seminar in Greek tragedy in order to discuss modern television around here?


you don't need anything to do anything around here, that's well established.

Do you need to take a graduate level seminar in Greek tragedy in order to discuss modern television around here?
MORE THAN ONE!


Depends on whether it was in the original Greek & staged accordingly.


lol. sorry, i didn't mean to hit a nerve.

I mean . . . Greg probably does know what to do, right? He needs to get out. He has the perfect negative role model in Tom, someone who didn't live his entire life with the Roys' wealth, but who's both revelling and floundering in their slipstream. Conspicuous consumption, casual cruelty, a willingness to completely debase himself if he thinks it'll help him fit in. If Greg were a moral person, he would stop spending his life with these people - none of whom are in his age range, unless I'm misjudging - and either take the work and wave to them in the corridors once in a while, or just accept that Waystar isn't for him, even if that means he doesn't get a free Manhattan bachelor pad.


thanks, good point.

re: Fleabag: the best tv show in the past few years for me, I think it's brilliant. If you at all enjoyed season 1 I would definitely encourage you to do the second season, which I thought was better. But yeah, if you did not enjoy it right away I doubt it would grow on you, I think it's pretty much fully formed right from the beginning.


fleabag is awesome. it, along with better things, has avoided the pitfalls of meeting high expectations in the second season. i love the way waller bridge mocks her own fourth wall device by having the priest notice it when she talks to the camera. sorry for the spoiler.

On a perhaps related note, I basically haven't watched any of the prestige TV shows of the past fifteen years. I'm sure they're as great as everyone says, but I just don't have any interest. Shrug.


well ... are you saying you are above it all? why are you here? are you a pop music guy? genuinely curious, i know you are a longtime BBTFer, just can't pinpoint you off the top of my head.

Not sure I'd want to shun and ignore the whole list of selfish, hurtful, awful characters ... to Oscar the Grouch.


gonfalon does this better than i do. i'll shut up.

I think it's important to note that The Wire was not even remotely popular. Basically no one, relatively speaking, watched Mad Men or Breaking Bad. Like, literally low single millions per week for most of these shows, they were just critically acclaimed, talked/written about a LOT by people who had a platform to discuss pop culture.


ratings are hardly indicative of quality, does that need to be pointed out? personally, i rely on critics because they tend to think ... y'know ... critically.

sorry, i said i'd shut up. i'll try to do better.
   98. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: October 03, 2019 at 07:25 PM (#5886133)
Casablanca is filled with relatable, sympathetic characters!


So is Mad Men, The Wire, Game of Thrones, etc... In "Casablanca," the "just following orders until the last reel" police buddy who saves Rick runs a personal sex-for-visas trading desk.
   99. PreservedFish Posted: October 03, 2019 at 09:42 PM (#5886266)
I've also missed out on most of the recent prestige television, although I don't doubt its quality. I do think that television shows almost inevitably devolve into soap opera. A show like Mad Men or Downtown Abbey is immediately appealing because of the setting, the immersive design and style, the premise, but these things can't float a television show for years on end.

I will say that The Wire entirely resists the soap opera thing - it is extraordinary in the way that it subverts regular television expectations. Game of Thrones was famous for killing off major characters, but in The Wire a major character will simply get marginalized, which in hindsight is almost more shocking.
   100. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: October 03, 2019 at 09:55 PM (#5886268)
Fleabag is utterly brilliant.
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