Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Wednesday, May 08, 2013

Catellier: Baseball HOF Discussion: Steve Garvey, Los Angeles Dodgers

“Garvey was a huge run producer nevertheless.” Fixed/Neutered.

In the seven-year stretch from his MVP season of 1974 through 1980, it could be argued that there wasn’t a better hitter in baseball than Garvey. No one had more hits during that period… not Rose, not Rod Carew, and not George Brett. Only Philadelphia Phillies Hall of Fame slugger Mike Schmidt had more RBIs (732 to 730), and as far as first basemen are concerned, only Carew (another Hall of Famer) comes close to Garvey’s offensive statistics. But even Carew lags way behind in run production. So how is it that all of these guys have made it to Cooperstown, yet Garvey is still without a plaque?

Defensively, Garvey’s résumé gets even better.  He is currently ranked seventh in history in fielding percentage as a first baseman—but at the time he retired, he was ranked first in that category. When Kevin Youkilis (1B) and Placido Polanco (2B) each finished the 2007 season with a perfect 1.000 fielding percentage, they joined Garvey as the only three infielders in baseball history to achieve the feat while playing over 1,000 innings in the field. Garvey won four Gold Gloves during his career, though he finished in the top three in fielding during 11 of his 14 full seasons in the Majors. He also led the league in putouts six times and his career total of 19,004 ranks him 12th all time.

Garvey was on the Hall of Fame ballot for the full 15 years, but he was never able to eclipse the 50 percent mark in voter support. It’s perplexing. This guy was a postseason beast, the best player at his position for nearly a decade, and possibly even the best position player in baseball for a stretch of six or seven years. It doesn’t make sense. I expect that the Veterans Committee will acknowledge Garvey’s career at some point in the not-so-distant future—perhaps even later this year, when they announce the 2014 veteran inductions.

Repoz Posted: May 08, 2013 at 12:51 PM | 47 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dodgers, history, hof

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. deputydrew Posted: May 08, 2013 at 01:04 PM (#4437464)
I was a big Steve Garvey fan for about six months when I was eight or nine. Other players with whom I had short flings: Tony Gwynn, Willie McGee, Cal Ripken Jr. Eventually I settled down with Nuschler and we made a great baseball life together.
   2. salvomania Posted: May 08, 2013 at 01:09 PM (#4437467)
In the seven-year stretch from his MVP season of 1974 through 1980, it could be argued that there wasn’t a better hitter in baseball than Garvey.


It can be argued that Larry Bowa was the best hitter in baseball from 1974 to 1980, too. Because nobody struck out so few times or had the bat control to have so many sacrifice bunts.
   3. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: May 08, 2013 at 01:13 PM (#4437470)
Most hits
1969-1975 Pete Rose
1970-1976 Pete Rose
1971-1977 Pete Rose
1972-1978 Pete Rose
1973-1979 Pete Rose
1974-1980 Steve Garvey
1975-1981 Pete Rose
1976-1982 Pete Rose
1977-1983 Jim Rice
1978-1984 Jim Rice
1979-1985 Cecil Cooper
1980-1986 Cecil Cooper
1981-1987 Tim Raines
1982-1988 Wade Boggs
1983-1989 Wade Boggs
1984-1990 Wade Boggs
1985-1991 Kirby Puckett
1986-1992 Kirby Puckett
1987-1993 Kirby Puckett
1988-1994 Kirby Puckett
1989-1995 Kirby Puckett
1990-1996 Paul Molitor
1991-1997 Paul Molitor
1992-1998 Paul Molitor
1993-1999 Dante Bichette
1994-2000 Dante Bichette
1995-2001 Dante Bichette
1996-2002 Derek Jeter
1997-2003 Derek Jeter
1998-2004 Derek Jeter
1999-2005 Derek Jeter
2000-2006 Ichiro Suzuki
2001-2007 Ichiro Suzuki
2002-2008 Ichiro Suzuki
2003-2009 Ichiro Suzuki
2004-2010 Ichiro Suzuki
2005-2011 Ichiro Suzuki
2006-2012 Ichiro Suzuki
   4. AROM Posted: May 08, 2013 at 01:17 PM (#4437477)
I predict Sean Forman will see a run on PI searches for the years 1974-1980. With a minimum of 2000 PA, Garvey ranks 24th in OPS+ at 130. The top 2 are Reginald Martinez (152) and Michael Jack (150), proving that it pays to not fear the strikeout.

Garvey was very durable for that period though, so if you put in a minimum of 4676 PA (1 more than Schmidt), then Garvey is indeed the best hitter of that period.

Though on that note, setting a minimum of 774 PA means that Jimmy Rollins' 2007 MVP year was the greatest season of all time.
   5. Jesse Barfield's Right Arm Posted: May 08, 2013 at 01:20 PM (#4437482)
In the seven-year stretch from his MVP season of 1974 through 1980, it could be argued that there wasn’t a better hitter in baseball than Garvey.


Only Philadelphia Phillies Hall of Fame slugger Mike Schmidt had more RBIs (732 to 730)


And...In 6 of those 7 seasons, Philadelphia Phillies Hall of Fame slugger Mike Schmidt had a better OPS+ than Garvey's best season. Good grief.

   6. Steve Treder Posted: May 08, 2013 at 01:21 PM (#4437483)
Garvey was a very fine ballplayer, but he was immensely overrated (for many obvious reasons), and he was never, ever, not once close to being the best hitter in baseball.
   7. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: May 08, 2013 at 01:28 PM (#4437491)
1974-1980 Steve Garvey
...
1977-1983 Jim Rice
1978-1984 Jim Rice


So Jim Rice was twice as good a Hall of Fame candidate as Steve Garvey!
   8. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: May 08, 2013 at 01:32 PM (#4437497)
as far as first basemen are concerned, only Carew (another Hall of Famer) comes close to Garvey’s offensive statistics


First Basemen, 1974-1980, OPS+
1. Rod Carew .348/.418/.468 - 148
2. Willie Stargell .284/.372/.524 - 146
3. Bob Watson .303/.368/.463 - 135
4. Andre Thornton .253/.372/.478 - 134
5. Eddie Murray .291/.353/.486 - 133
6. Steve Garvey .311/.348/.480 - 130
7. Keith Hernandez .299/.383/.454 - 130
8. Mike Hargrove .294/.403/.411 - 129
9. Cecil Cooper .308/.348./484 - 127
10.Boog Powell .263/.354/.430 - 126
   9. GregD Posted: May 08, 2013 at 01:35 PM (#4437501)
If this was a sporcle, I would not have gotten Jim Rice. No knock on him--I probably liked him more than most people on the board, but never pictured him on the hits list.
   10. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: May 08, 2013 at 01:38 PM (#4437508)

If this was a sporcle, I would not have gotten Jim Rice. No knock on him--I probably liked him more than most people on the board, but never pictured him on the hits list.


I think he is far behind the most surprising name on that list. Dante Bichette? I get the Coors effect, but Dante Bichette??!?!?
   11. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: May 08, 2013 at 01:40 PM (#4437511)
First Basemen, 1974-1980, OPS+
1. Rod Carew .348/.418/.468 - 148
2. Willie Stargell .284/.372/.524 - 146
3. Bob Watson .303/.368/.463 - 135
4. Andre Thornton .253/.372/.478 - 134
5. Eddie Murray .291/.353/.486 - 133
6. Steve Garvey .311/.348/.480 - 130
7. Keith Hernandez .299/.383/.454 - 130
8. Mike Hargrove .294/.403/.411 - 129
9. Cecil Cooper .308/.348./484 - 127
10.Boog Powell .263/.354/.430 - 126

#6 first baseman!
   12. GregD Posted: May 08, 2013 at 01:45 PM (#4437517)
Post-1980 OPS+ over 130:
Keith Hernandez 4
Cecil Cooper 3
Steve Garvey 0

From that list, as a career, I'd take Garvey over Thornton and Hargrove.
   13. DL from MN Posted: May 08, 2013 at 01:52 PM (#4437527)
We've completed all the years from 1974 to 1980 in MMP voting. MMP voting allows consideration of postseason value. Garvey received one 11th place vote in 1974 and that's it.
   14. RJ in TO Posted: May 08, 2013 at 01:52 PM (#4437529)
I get the Coors effect, but Dante Bichette??!?!?

As you note, there was the Coors effect, but Bichette was also extremely durable, and was terrified of walking. For the 1993-1999 stretch, he played 1018 games, which was about 95% of possible games for his team, and put up a .316/.352/.540 line (only 112 OPS+) over 4352 PA, with a massive 226 BB. He makes perfect sense as a guy who could lead the league over a multi-year stretch but, like you, I would have never guessed him.
   15. SoSH U at work Posted: May 08, 2013 at 01:59 PM (#4437539)
To me, what's more surprising than Bichette's inclusion is the complete absence of Tony Gwynn.
   16. zonk Posted: May 08, 2013 at 01:59 PM (#4437540)
I'd complain about a Garvey thread not extensively referencing his history has a Nazi war criminal child molester not using his turn signal monster, but then -- any discussion about Garvey that denigrates his value as a player using data isn't the worst thing in the world, either.

I will say this, however -- the Cey-Rusell-Lopes-Garvey IF collectively is an interesting animal. Most of that due to the longetivity of the group staying together. None of them were ever the 'best' at their position. Cey was probably the best of the four, but they all had their moments.
   17. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 08, 2013 at 02:05 PM (#4437549)
In the seven-year stretch from his MVP season of 1974 through 1980, it could be argued that there wasn’t a better hitter in baseball than Garvey.
The great thing about this sentence is that it's irrefutable. It could, indeed, be argued. It could also be argued that Adolf Hitler was an Australian aborigine.
   18. RJ in TO Posted: May 08, 2013 at 02:29 PM (#4437574)
To me, what's more surprising than Bichette's inclusion is the complete absence of Tony Gwynn.

Gwynn was dueling with Boggs and Puckett in his early career, and against his health (by which I mean weight) late in his career. After 1989, he never again played 150 games in a season, and was usually floating around 130. While he was about as good a hitter as it was possible to be, he was also always missing games to give his knees a break.
   19. SoSH U at work Posted: May 08, 2013 at 02:41 PM (#4437586)
Gwynn was dueling with Boggs and Puckett in his early career, and against his health (by which I mean weight) late in his career. After 1989, he never again played 150 games in a season, and was usually floating around 130. While he was about as good a hitter as it was possible to be, he was also always missing games to give his knees a break.


Sure, but his early run was impressive (led the NL four times in six seasons, with an extra 197-hit season in the mix). It looks like that somewhat abbreviated 1988 campaign kept him off the leaderboard.
   20. Dag Nabbit is part of the zombie horde Posted: May 08, 2013 at 04:02 PM (#4437701)
I was a big Steve Garvey fan for about six months when I was eight or nine. Other players with whom I had short flings:

Many people have had short flings w/ Steve Garvey.
   21. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: May 08, 2013 at 04:32 PM (#4437741)
Defensively, Garvey’s résumé gets even better. He is currently ranked seventh in history in fielding percentage as a first baseman—but at the time he retired, he was ranked first in that category.


The mind boggles
It goes on to mention him leading the league in putouts

OF COURSE HE LEAD THE LEAGUE IN PUTOUTS
he played 162 games a year at 1B AND HAD NO ARM


   22. stanmvp48 Posted: May 08, 2013 at 04:36 PM (#4437750)
As I recall at the end of his career he was not even permitted to field bunts in case he had to make a throw. There was a reason he was not allowed to play third.
   23. Tubbs & Minnie Miñoso don't fear Sid Monge Posted: May 08, 2013 at 04:36 PM (#4437752)
I noticed the writer of the article used all traditional stats and no sabermetric ones. I give respect to the writer for having a book published & I actually remember his name from sponsoring Garvey's BBref page so he must be passionate about Garvey's HOF candidacy. If anything puts Garvey close, it's his postseason stats but I feel he is still short. The BBWAA voters who were probably all going by mostly traditional stats didnt put him in & he was on the last Expansion Era ballot & collected less than 50% of the vote. I'm not sure if he's made it past the screening committee but for this year's Exp Era ballot but I'd much rather see high WAR guys like Bobby Grich, Graig Nettles, and Darrell Evans (who I see Catellier compares favorably to Dale Murphy in a different rant sports article) that the screening committee overlooked last time have their shot over Garvey.
   24. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: May 08, 2013 at 04:40 PM (#4437759)
If Fred McGriff had played a few more games, he would have passed Garvey in putouts. I look forward to the time McGriff's 18,985 putouts are mentioned on his Hall of Fame plaque.
   25. TJ Posted: May 08, 2013 at 05:07 PM (#4437801)
Of course Garvey should be in Cooperstown! His WAR record is better than High Pockets Kelly, and arguably better than Jim Bottomley, and they're in the Hall! So Garvey only had one All-Star caliber seasonal bWAR of 5+. I don't care- I like him, so he should be in, and so what if Garvey's defensive "records" mean about as much as Lee Smith's record consecutive errorless game streak...

An article extolling Steve Garvey for the Hall of Fame? Fans of Keith Hernandez, Dick Allen, and Don Mattingly (not to mention Gil Hodges, John Olerud, Norm Cash, etc) weep...
   26. Walt Davis Posted: May 08, 2013 at 05:09 PM (#4437804)
1974-1980 overall, Garvey is 21st in WAR, 8 WAR behind Cey (6th). Garvey did have 27 more Rbat (400 more PA as well) but Cey takes it cuz he was a 3B. Schmidt tops the list with an insane 57 WAR, 11 WAR ahead of Brett and 14 ahead of Morgan and Carew.

The top 5 is very impressive but you quickly get into HoM/HoVG territory. "Unimpressive" names ahead of Garvey include Grich, Foster, Tenace, Parker, Nettles, Lynn, Bell, Harrah (always underrated), Cedeno, Simmons, and Singleton.

The presence of Tenace in 1000 fewer PA would make most sportswriters heads explode and they'd then write columns about how stupid WAR is (what is it good for anyway?). Lynn is also impressive as he's 1300 PA behind Garvey (2 full seasons!) yet has 32 WAR to Garvey's 28. A reasonably healthy Lynn is probably 5th on the list and a genuinely durable Lynn joins Morgan/Carew.

Cedeno is another surprise because this does not cover his massive 72-73 seasons (15 WAR).

Garvey leads this list in PA of course, with Schmidt and Singleton being the only ones particularly close. Most names ahead of him have 500+ fewer PA. Thanks to his BA, he's only 4th lowest in OBP (Nettles at 328 takes those honors). Schmidt (ahead by 2), Foster and Jackson are the only ones who can even touch him in RBI. Brett, Carew, Parker lead him in BA with Lynn just behind.

It is true that Carew is the only 1B ahead of him on the list. Hernandez in 1500 fewer PA is only 4 WAR behind. Guys like Thornton are not close in WAR (11 back) due at least in part to not being close in PA (2000 behind). Garvey easily beats HoFer Perez by 13 WAR (in 600 more PA).

Finally, 1965 to 1989, ages 25-31, at least 50% of games at one of 1B/LF/RF/DH... Garvey is 19th on this list by WAR, tied with Singleton, a smidgen ahead of Stargell (who was great in his 30s). No big surprises ahead of him except for the non-surprising Roy White and Tenace again. Lots of great peak "flameouts" like Reggie Smith, Foster, Bonds I, Oliva, Allen, P Guerrero, Rice.

No news to anybody here, Garvey shouldn't sniff the HoF unless it's the Procreation HoF (ha!). I'm not sure I'd put my finger on this before though -- his best comp might be fellow Dodger Gil Hodges.
   27. BDC Posted: May 08, 2013 at 07:58 PM (#4437921)
I've always tried to like Steve Garvey, given that we went to the same university and he was a very hard-working and skillful ballplayer, but he kept driving stakes through the hearts of my father's and my favorite teams, and then there's the whole worst-human-being-on-earth angle. I don't think there's any sentimental or intangible reason to elevate him above the HOVG. I can see how he's both overrated and underrated, and have been a party to both evaluations in my day, but agh, he's just another VG ballplayer, in the final analysis.
   28. Steve Treder Posted: May 08, 2013 at 08:13 PM (#4437934)
I can see how he's both overrated and underrated

In what way is Garvey underrated?
   29. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: May 08, 2013 at 08:17 PM (#4437939)
In what way is Garvey underrated?


Nobody gives him credit for being good in the beginning, before he went too far.
   30. BDC Posted: May 08, 2013 at 08:18 PM (#4437940)
In what way is Garvey underrated?

Merely in the sense that he was so overhyped that some statheads are likely to say "he ####s" in the teeth of the actual evidence. If one reads him as an empty-BA guy who got a lot of RBIs because of his teammates, one might miss the fact that a guy who gets 200 hits year after year over 162 games is pretty good. Mark Teixeira might be the contemporary equivalent; he's overpaid but still a heck of a ballplayer.

   31. Steve Treder Posted: May 08, 2013 at 08:20 PM (#4437941)
Merely in the sense that he was so overhyped that some statheads are likely to say "he ####s" in the teeth of the actual evidence.

OK, I hear you, but I'm sure you will agree that the proportion of opinionators over the years who have overrated Garvey dwarfs the proportion who have underrated him.
   32. zonk Posted: May 08, 2013 at 08:27 PM (#4437944)
In what way is Garvey underrated?



Nobody gives him credit for being good in the beginning, before he went too far.


and..... thread!
   33. Delorians Posted: May 08, 2013 at 08:35 PM (#4437947)
Wow, Dante Bichette. If you had shown me the list in #3 with blanks from 1993-2001 and given me 20 choices, I still might not have guessed Bichette.
   34. flournoy Posted: May 08, 2013 at 09:27 PM (#4438004)
For reasons that elude me (and I like it better that way), my mom referred to Dante Bichette as "the dumbest man in baseball."

I miss Dante Bichette.
   35. jdennis Posted: May 08, 2013 at 09:55 PM (#4438054)
talking about fielding percentage and putouts, which of course augments fpct, when rating defensive 1B seems pretty worthless to me, especially for a career. did he do it every year, can we verify with RF? was it just the dodgers' pitching staff?

and do we really value the best defensive 1B of all time? i don't remember people trying to say garvey was the best anyway? wasn't keith hernandez supposed to be during that time, wasn't he winning all the NL 1B GG then? and now, doesn't pujols beat garvey's numbers (at least from like 04-10)? there's no outcry over ed konetchy, who I have as a really great defensive 1B? or joe start? ossee schrecongost blew away the competition in putouts every year during his career, sometimes by 30%, do people call him the best defensive catcher ever? no, they value other defense much more and realize his team threw way more strikeouts (which he may have helped though).

just a weird argument all around, even more so considering he's a 1B and we want them to hit HR and not be fielders, slightly less so in the 70s-80s but still. I mean, you don't argue that a 1B should be in the hall for defense unless its the DBE or something. JT Snow and Mark Grace and John Olerud and Wally Joyner, wouldn't they all have a similar argument to Garvey?

   36. TomH Posted: May 08, 2013 at 10:11 PM (#4438079)
Only Philadelphia Phillies Hall of Fame slugger Mike Schmidt had more RBIs (732 to 730), and as far as first basemen are concerned, only Carew (another Hall of Famer) comes close to Garvey’s offensive statistics. But even Carew lags way behind in run production.
see, "run production" is important. We measure it with RBI. We wouldn't want to use unimportant stats like RUNS SCORED (the key metric in this game of baseball) or OUTS MADE (the other key metric). Because Garvey isn't very good at either of those two.

Rod Carew 1974-1980
637 runs scored, 2522 outs (AB - H)
Steve Garvey
615 runs scored, 3115 outs (AB - H)

22 more runs, 23 games worth more of {bad} outs.

And these were not Carew's best 7 years, unlike Garvey. And of course Rod played second base a lot. Which is why he is in the Hall, and Steve is.... not.
   37. Tubbs & Minnie Miñoso don't fear Sid Monge Posted: May 08, 2013 at 11:13 PM (#4438144)
and do we really value the best defensive 1B of all time? i don't remember people trying to say garvey was the best anyway? wasn't keith hernandez supposed to be during that time, wasn't he winning all the NL 1B GG then? and now, doesn't pujols beat garvey's numbers (at least from like 04-10)? there's no outcry over ed konetchy, who I have as a really great defensive 1B? or joe start? ossee schrecongost blew away the competition in putouts every year during his career, sometimes by 30%, do people call him the best defensive catcher ever? no, they value other defense much more and realize his team threw way more strikeouts (which he may have helped though).

Hernandez's HOF argument certainly centers around being the best defensive 1B of all-time and making the position more important by how he played it. There's also his leadership too but he his career makes for a good HOF argument

I'm glad Joe Start was mentioned. He gets some credit for being an innovater at first. Also, he played for a Julio Franco length of time, only he played at a high level into his 40's at time when that was rare.

McGriff of course gets little credit for fielding but he was durable and didn't play much at DH. His power and SLG/OPS total are most of his case.

Walt's Hodges/Garvey comp is interesting, Hodges was a better fielding 1B, played on a better Dodger team that won a long overdue WS title, and rather than the post career issues Garvey had--Hodges led a NY team to a WS title so Hodges, Hernandez, Start, and McGriff are all much better 1B HOF candidates than Garvey, in addition to others
   38. bookbook Posted: May 08, 2013 at 11:22 PM (#4438150)
"1974-1980 overall, Garvey is 21st in WAR, 8 WAR behind Cey (6th). Garvey did have 27 more Rbat (400 more PA as well) but Cey takes it cuz he was a 3B. Schmidt tops the list with an insane 57 WAR, 11 WAR ahead of Brett and 14 ahead of Morgan and Carew."

Which shows the flaws in WAR right there: What team in their right mind would rather have Mike freaking Schmidt than Steve Garvey?!?
   39. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: May 08, 2013 at 11:29 PM (#4438160)
No one had more hits during that period…


Did anyone really need to read beyond that deadly, stricken phrase?

And these were not Carew's best 7 years, unlike Garvey. And of course Rod played second base a lot. Which is why he is in the Hall, and Steve is.... not.


Would Carew not be in the Hall if he had played those games at 2b at a less demanding position?

   40. bobm Posted: May 08, 2013 at 11:35 PM (#4438171)
[37] Hernandez and Garvey started just about the same number of games at 1B, at similar ground ball in play rates.

While Hernandez had only 90% of Garvey's unassisted putouts at 1B, he had 2.4X as many assists to bases other than 1B, and almost 6 times
as many "3-X-3" double plays.

         Player  Years  GG  GG/Yr  G 1B  GS 1B     PA   Fld  RHB%  GBIP%    3U   Anot1B   3-X-3 DP
Keith Hernandez     17  11   0.65  2014   1942  72626  4444   60%    29%  1690      638         75
   Steve Garvey     16   4   0.25  2059   2039  74801  4098   62%    28%  1884      265         13
    Ratio KH/SG                    0.98   0.95   0.97  1.08               0.90     2.41        5.8


GG -- Gold Glove
G 1B -- Games played at 1B
GS 1B -- Games started at 1B
PA -- Plate Appearances faced in the field, at 1B
RHB% -- Percentage of PAs with a Right-Handed Batter
GBIP% -- Percentage of PAs that ended with ground ball in play (not a bunt).
Fld -- Number of balls fielded
3U -- Putouts on unassisted putouts of the batter.
Anot1B -- Assists where the ball was thrown to somewhere other than 1B as the result of a ball in play.
3-X-3 DP -- Any play where the first baseman started and ended the double play.
   41. Walt Davis Posted: May 10, 2013 at 03:25 AM (#4439280)
Would Carew not be in the Hall if he had played those games at 2b at a less demanding position?

Which less-demanding position?

Actually, I expect 3000 hit guy to make the HoF (eventually). Maybe that will be put to the test if a Damon-type ever makes it but given the ease with which most of them have made it, Carew would have eventually even if his career had been at 1B/DH. Gwynn played RF for pretty much his entire career and he made it easily.

Still, by Rbat among players with 9500 PA, Carew was 38th in Rbat. He's 10 runs ahead of McGriff in 400 more PA. On the other hand, he's only 28 behind Griffey in 800 fewer PA. You've got to go down to guys like Abreu and Dw Evans around 350 to find some not in the HoF and below 300 before it starts to become regular for corner players not to make it.

The not-likely and not-PED-cursed and not-Rose non-HoFers with 9500+ PA by Rbat:

McGriff 397
Abreu 365
Evans 348
Kent 295 (interesting case I think)
Raines 290
Staub 277
Da Evans 231
Baines 230
L Gonzalez 228
Oliver 226
C Davis 217
Parker 212
Whitaker 205

Walker at 417 in 8000 PA is getting screwed even more than McGriff. The Clarks, Delgado, Olerud also join fairly high on that list in less than 9500 PA.
   42. Walt Davis Posted: May 10, 2013 at 03:34 AM (#4439281)
Interesting comp I'd never thought of ... suppose Carew hadn't made it that close to 3000 hits. Through age 36:

9100 PA, 2672 H, 331/394/438, 134 OPS+, 385 Rbat

Billy Williams through age 36:

9500 PA, 2510 H, 296/364/503, 135 OPS+, 361 Rbat

Obviously lots of things wrong with that comp but I'd never thought of them as being similarly productive.

Also, a b-r search for "the billy" takes you to Billy Beane. F'ing Brad Pitt.
   43. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: May 10, 2013 at 04:14 AM (#4439287)
W
ould Carew not be in the Hall if he had played those games at 2b at a less demanding position?

Which less-demanding position?


My remark leaned towards the rhetorical, in response Tom's post 26, which I read as strongly suggesting Carew would not be in the Hall if not for the fact that Carew played 2B. I'm not seeing a 1Bman w 3053 hits, 7 batting titles, and an MVP not based on time at 2B failing to make the Hall. We might also give him a bit of a boost in durability and hitting if he starts and ends his career at 1B.
   44. TomH Posted: May 10, 2013 at 08:41 AM (#4439330)
Sorry, my phrasing was vague. I MEANT that Carew would not be in the Hall if he had significantly dropped off production outside of his best 7 years like Garvey had.. AND if he did not play a lot of 2B.
   45. bobm Posted: May 10, 2013 at 08:44 AM (#4439334)
[41] Same list, sorted by WAR and noting defensive position played

                                              
          Player WAR/pos    PA Rbat      Pos
    Lou Whitaker    74.8  9967  205     *4/D
      Tim Raines    68.8 10359  290  *78D/49
    Dwight Evans    66.9 10569  348  *9D3/78
     Bobby Abreu    60.5  9926  365   *9D7/8
   Darrell Evans    58.5 10737  231  *53D/76
       Jeff Kent    55.1  9537  295  *453/D6
    Fred McGriff    52.5 10174  397      *3D
   Luis Gonzalez    51.3 10531  228 *7/D9835
     Rusty Staub    45.9 11229  277  *9D3/78
       Al Oliver    43.1  9778  226   837D/9
     Dave Parker    39.9 10184  212 *9D/7834
   Harold Baines    38.2 11092  230   *D9/87
     Chili Davis    38.1  9997  217  D897/13


ETA: Isn't Gonzalez "PED cursed"?
   46. BDC Posted: May 10, 2013 at 04:38 PM (#4439880)
Very late reply to #31: But of course, Steve :)

The Carew discussion is interesting. He's somewhat like Nolan Ryan in (just) this (one) respect: Carew was as preternaturally good at getting base hits as Ryan was at preventing them, and base hits get people's attention. I mean, Ichiro is groovy, but he has just two batting titles; Carew was basically the regular batting champion.

And then he had a long decline phase where he wasn't such a great player, and he never had much power, and he wasn't exactly Bobby Knoop at second base; but all those things just move him from the inner circle to one comfortably nearby. People saw he was astonishing at something (batting average) that wasn't quite as valuable as they made it out to be, but it was still pretty valuable.
   47. Tubbs & Minnie Miñoso don't fear Sid Monge Posted: May 10, 2013 at 11:19 PM (#4440235)
It's interesting that BDC mentioned Rod Carew & Bobby Knoop, if I'm not mistake I believe I read somewhere that Carew once spiked Knoop bad in the late 60s & Knoop's keystone partner Jim Fregosi put some kind of bounty on Carew. Ironically, Fregosi was later Carew's manager, not sure how much the past was issue between them.

Great stats posted by bobm. It really shows the vast difference between their fielding at first.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
James Kannengieser
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogGiants purchase contract of 2B Uggla
(8 - 12:09am, Jul 28)
Last: Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick.

NewsblogSchoenfield: Why didn't the Braves win more titles?
(42 - 12:05am, Jul 28)
Last: Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick.

NewsblogOT: Monthly NBA Thread- July 2014
(966 - 11:46pm, Jul 27)
Last: 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people

NewsblogOMNICHATTER 7-27-2014
(145 - 11:46pm, Jul 27)
Last: Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim

NewsblogDJ Short: Maximum stay on Hall of Fame ballot changed from 15 to 10 years
(55 - 11:33pm, Jul 27)
Last: McCoy

NewsblogFull Count » Mike Carp explains why he requested a trade from Red Sox
(15 - 11:30pm, Jul 27)
Last: Dale Sams

NewsblogGossage on Bonds, McGwire Hall hopes: ‘Are you f–king kidding?’
(105 - 11:25pm, Jul 27)
Last: Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October

NewsblogHall of Fame Announces Changes to Voting Process for Recently Retired Players, Effective Immediately
(81 - 11:18pm, Jul 27)
Last: Booey

NewsblogFull Count » Mike Carp, Felix Doubront and the challenges of player discontent on a struggling team
(3 - 11:15pm, Jul 27)
Last: Dale Sams

NewsblogHoVG: John Rocker Shows Up in Cooperstown… “Survivor” Up Next
(31 - 10:52pm, Jul 27)
Last: depletion

NewsblogDodgers and Diamondbacks Triple-A teams involved in wild brawl
(8 - 10:43pm, Jul 27)
Last: depletion

NewsblogRoger Angell goes into the Hall of Fame
(27 - 10:19pm, Jul 27)
Last: Howie Menckel

Hall of MeritMost Meritorious Player: 1956 Ballot
(7 - 9:28pm, Jul 27)
Last: neilsen

NewsblogOTP - July 2014: Republicans Lose To Democrats For Sixth Straight Year In Congressional Baseball Game
(3287 - 9:07pm, Jul 27)
Last: robinred

SABR - BBTF ChapterWho's going to SABR??
(100 - 6:40pm, Jul 27)
Last: Scott Fischthal

Page rendered in 0.3989 seconds
52 querie(s) executed