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Thursday, October 18, 2012

CBS: Tigers complete blowout of Yankees in ALCS sweep

The Yankees stood there like a mausoleum by the side of the road, and watched it go by.

After the Athletics, who would have ever guessed that the Tigers’ toughest opponent this autumn would be strategizing for another long layoff before the World Series? Certainly not the Yankees.

Ticket punched. Yankees clocked.

The Tigers are going to the World Series.

This was a quick, decisive and brutal beatdown. Finishing with an 8-1 Game 4 rout, Detroit pitching channeled Sandy Koufax and Don Drysdale, and that is not hyperbole: The Yankees did not lead once in this four-game TKO, and only one other time has that happened in the decorated New Yorkers’ October history. That came in the 1963 World Series, when the Dodgers of Koufax and Drysdale swept them.

Doug Fister, Anibal Sanchez, Justin Verlander and Max Scherzer, take a bow.

Nick Swisher needs a hug? Alex Rodriguez needs the Witness Protection Program? Robinson Cano and Curtis Granderson need fresh starts?

Why do you think that is?

After a week of banging on the Yankees, maybe it’s time folks celebrated the Tigers.

Repoz Posted: October 18, 2012 at 07:48 PM | 85 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: tigers, yankees

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   1. tfbg9 Posted: October 18, 2012 at 08:00 PM (#4276014)
tfbg9 loves the DET Tigers! Congrats!
   2. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: October 18, 2012 at 08:10 PM (#4276025)
Well, after the O's the Tigers are my next backup team. Love the uniforms, love Leyland, like the players, and love what's left of the city. I just hope they don't zone out in the World Series again, but this time I don't think the NL will catch them half asleep. This should be a great matchup whichever way it sets up, and may the best Michigan team win.
   3. RMc's desperate, often sordid world Posted: October 18, 2012 at 08:11 PM (#4276026)
Was I wrong? Oh, yeah.
GO TIGERS!
   4. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: October 18, 2012 at 08:12 PM (#4276028)
RIP 2012 Yankees, now officially the least favorite Yankee team of my memory
   5. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: October 18, 2012 at 08:17 PM (#4276031)
RIP 2012 Yankees, now officially the least favorite Yankee team of my memory


Didn't they have a lot of rapists in the early 1990's? Well, two at least.
   6. cardsfanboy Posted: October 18, 2012 at 08:22 PM (#4276037)
Didn't they have a lot of rapists in the early 1990's? Well, two at least.


Nothing wrong with a good therapist.
edit: in my best fake Darrel Hammond, Sean Connery accent.
   7. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: October 18, 2012 at 08:25 PM (#4276043)
Didn't they have a lot of rapists in the early 1990's? Well, two at least.
Statutory rapists. But my memory doesn't really go back that far.
   8. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: October 18, 2012 at 08:27 PM (#4276046)
yeah!
   9. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: October 18, 2012 at 08:29 PM (#4276050)
Yanks never had a chance. The two lowest regular season win totals: Tigers and Cards. They will be in the World Series, because that's how baseball works now. They each had 88 wins, but I assume the 'Second Wild Card' designation will serve as an effective tie breaker and allow the Cards to get another bullsh!t title.
   10. cardsfanboy Posted: October 18, 2012 at 08:29 PM (#4276051)
Statutory rapists. But my memory doesn't really go back that far.


Repressed those bad memories?
   11. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: October 18, 2012 at 08:30 PM (#4276052)
Repressed those bad memories?
+1
   12. Smiling Joe Hesketh Posted: October 18, 2012 at 08:35 PM (#4276057)
Yanks never had a chance. The two lowest regular season win totals: Tigers and Cards. They will be in the World Series, because that's how baseball works now. They each had 88 wins, but I assume the 'Second Wild Card' designation will serve as an effective tie breaker and allow the Cards to get another bullsh!t title.


Hey, at least Arod made contact a couple of times.

The yankees could have done something about it, like say, not playing like a bunch of sick nuns in this series. They barely showed up. They played like garbage. They eminently deserved to lose the series and they did so in the most humiliating way possible. There's nothing unfair about it.

I would have guessed the yankees were the team with 88 wins, from watching this series. Lifeless, punchless, badly managed, they had it all going on. My team had the worst damn season they've experienced in 40+ years, but seeing this series salves the wounds a bit.

Were there any Yankees fans here who actually liked this team? Most of the other threads have their fans saying how much they detested them. That's an honest question.

   13. Tripon Posted: October 18, 2012 at 08:37 PM (#4276060)
A world series with a banged up and bad Yankees team vs a plucky Nationals team that can't hold a 6-0 lead would probably not be a good series.
   14. madvillain Posted: October 18, 2012 at 08:37 PM (#4276061)
Yanks never had a chance. The two lowest regular season win totals: Tigers and Cards. They will be in the World Series, because that's how baseball works now. They each had 88 wins, but I assume the 'Second Wild Card' designation will serve as an effective tie breaker and allow the Cards to get another bullsh!t title.


It's Bud's master plan to turn MLB into the NFL. Expanded playoffs so every fan feels they have a chance? Check. Expanded revenue sharing so every owner is guaranteed profits? Check. Change the draft rules to level the playing field? Check.

Personally I don't like it, but plenty do, and you can't argue with the monetary success of his vision.
   15. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: October 18, 2012 at 08:39 PM (#4276062)
A just end for a thoroughly unlikeable and not-very-good Yankees team. Good riddance. Thanks for the least interesting season since I was in grade school.
   16. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: October 18, 2012 at 08:41 PM (#4276068)
I would have guessed the yankees were the team with 88 wins, from watching this series.
If you watched this series and thought the Yankees won 88 games, you probably don't have much of a future as a scout.

(I know that's not what you meant, I just couldn't help it.)
   17. zachtoma Posted: October 18, 2012 at 08:42 PM (#4276071)
Yanks never had a chance. The two lowest regular season win totals: Tigers and Cards. They will be in the World Series, because that's how baseball works now. They each had 88 wins, but I assume the 'Second Wild Card' designation will serve as an effective tie breaker and allow the Cards to get another bullsh!t title.


This will be how I do my postseason predictions from now on - in every series, favor the team with the worse regular-season record. Hasn't every series including WC games (except for Yankees-O's) turned out this way? This means Detroit will beat San Francisco in the World Series but it could go either way against the Cardinals since they both won 88. Nine teams won at least 90 games in 2012; if St. Louis advances, none of them will be in the World Series. Tampa Bay didn't even make the playoffs. Ah, baseball.
   18. Every Inge Counts Posted: October 18, 2012 at 08:42 PM (#4276072)
What sucks about beating the Yankees is that the win is not about what the Tigers did right but what the Yankees did wrong....
   19. madvillain Posted: October 18, 2012 at 08:42 PM (#4276073)
A just end for a thoroughly unlikeable and not-very-good Yankees team. Good riddance. Thanks for the least interesting season since I was in grade school.


Oh, Pobrecita!
   20. Tim D Posted: October 18, 2012 at 08:52 PM (#4276088)
Yankees win it's because the Yankees are great. Yankees lose it's because the Yankees suck. Same old boring BS that everybody else is so sick of. Guess what, you got your rears kicked by an 88 win team because RIGHT NOW, we are playing a lot better than you. Deal with it. The Tigers were good.
   21. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: October 18, 2012 at 08:57 PM (#4276098)
Congrats Tigers fans.

That was an embarrassing performance by Yankees hitters, and it looks like this offseason is going to be full of stupid drama with A-Rod.
   22. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: October 18, 2012 at 09:04 PM (#4276109)
Were there any Yankees fans here who actually liked this team?

I did, even if I can't deny what I've seen with my own eyes over the past four games. But I loved the way they kicked the Red Sox's butt all year, I liked them in June when they rolled over the Braves, the Mets and the Nats, and I loved the way they held off the O's in one of the best September races in recent memory. I loved the first two games of that September series against Oakland, and the first Ibanez doubleup game against the Red Sox. And until today, it was hard to find any fault in the postseason with the often-maligned starting rotation, which gave them one quality start after another. Horrible as they were in the LCS, they're still my favorite team, and you've got to take the bad with the good.

-----------------------------------------------------

Guess what, you got your rears kicked by an 88 win team because RIGHT NOW, we are playing a lot better than you. Deal with it. The Tigers were good.

They were damn good when it counted, and that's all that really matters. Great pitching and timely hitting can't be honestly described any other way. Leyland says that this time they'll be prepared for the next round, and I have a feeling he'll be proven right. Sure hope so.
   23. Rafael Bellylard: Built like a Panda. Posted: October 18, 2012 at 09:06 PM (#4276114)
The oddest thing to me, is a month ago no one could have thought the Red Sox might have a brighter immediate future than the Yankees do. Now it's possible, depending on if they trade A-Rod (and how much annual contract they have to digest), Jeter's ankle, and a raft of free agents in an era of new financial constraints.
   24. McCoy Posted: October 18, 2012 at 09:31 PM (#4276138)
That was an embarrassing performance by Yankees hitters, and it looks like this offseason is going to be full of stupid drama with A-Rod.

This is one time I'm not going to say "Alfonso Soriano is available".
   25. Dale Sams Posted: October 18, 2012 at 09:32 PM (#4276141)
But I loved the way they kicked the Red Sox's Pawtucket's butt all year,
   26. escabeche Posted: October 18, 2012 at 09:41 PM (#4276165)
I don't know if the Orioles would have beaten the Tigers in this series, but I feel pretty confident they'd have put up more of a fight than this.
   27. Morph Posted: October 18, 2012 at 09:58 PM (#4276193)
Yankees win it's because the Yankees are great. Yankees lose it's because the Yankees suck. Same old boring BS that everybody else is so sick of. Guess what, you got your rears kicked by an 88 win team because RIGHT NOW, we are playing a lot better than you. Deal with it. The Tigers were good.


I can understand this perspective from Tigers fans. Also, with Sanchez and Infante the entire season, it's definitely a 90 win team. That being said, it looks like I'll have to root for St. Louis, because I am a petty person. Rooting for the Cardinals on BTF is a lot like joining the NWO, so I guess I just hit Sting with a chair.

Go Cards! Come on, they lose Pujols to free agency and Berkman to injury, and they might do it again? This is one of the best stories in baseball history! Get with it!
   28. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: October 18, 2012 at 09:58 PM (#4276197)
Were there any Yankees fans here who actually liked this team? Most of the other threads have their fans saying how much they detested them. That's an honest question.

I liked them, I think. There were a bunch of guys on the roster who I really liked/cared about: Cano, Nova, Hughes, Phelps, Robertson, A-Rod, Jeter, Granderson, Gardner, NunEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE. I will admit this was the least I've watched a Yankee team since I started following in '98. Some of that was beginning to work full-time and some of it was that Gardner, Mo, and A-Rod missed significant time with injury and Nunez was banished. Plus, for me a big part the decision to watch is the SP. This year: (1) Kuroda was awesome, but wasn't so awesome that it made up for the fact that he's an old mercenary (2) CC was very good, but with the drop in velocity/stuff, not as much fun to watch as in the past (3) I don't like Andy Pettitte (4) Hughes and Nova were maddening. So...I think it's fair to say maybe they were the least enjoyable squad, but I still liked them.
   29. Bourbon Samurai in Asia Posted: October 18, 2012 at 10:12 PM (#4276217)
Good night Yanks. I wish you had had the decency to lose to the Orioles, but then you just wouldn't be the Yankees if you did that.
   30. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 18, 2012 at 10:18 PM (#4276225)
Were there any Yankees fans here who actually liked this team? Most of the other threads have their fans saying how much they detested them.

There are some high drama posters at BBTF. If you think the Yankee fans are bad, check out some of this Red Sox chatters when Boston was playing poorly but had yet to make clear that it was a lost season. Not pretty.

Not winning may be disappointing, but the idea is that following MLB is supposed to be fun. It helps not to lose sight of that. On most teams, there is something positive to focus on, such as Jeter's surprisingly great age-38 season, the presence of 3 likely all-time Yankees on this team, holding off the Orioles down the stretch. And when things aren't quite right, there's always next season!
   31. bookbook Posted: October 18, 2012 at 10:33 PM (#4276249)
Well... you didn't actually expect the Yankees to win a series without Jeter, did you?
   32. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: October 18, 2012 at 10:36 PM (#4276251)
Statutory rapists. But my memory doesn't really go back that far.


So you're saying those women could have gotten pregnant.
   33. Justin T., Director of Somethin Posted: October 18, 2012 at 10:39 PM (#4276256)
I don't know if the Orioles would have beaten the Tigers in this series, but I feel pretty confident they'd have put up more of a fight than this.

Also, the A's could be going to the World Series if they got to play these Yankees.

But not having to see Lew Wolff get on that stage and make some stupid insincere speech is okay with me too.
   34. McCoy Posted: October 18, 2012 at 10:41 PM (#4276259)
Not winning may be disappointing, but the idea is that following MLB is supposed to be fun. It helps not to lose sight of that. On most teams, there is something positive to focus on, such as Jeter's surprisingly great age-38 season, the presence of 3 likely all-time Yankees on this team, holding off the Orioles down the stretch. And when things aren't quite right, there's always next season!

Now run the "Neifi Perez" List on this year's Chicago Cubs.
   35. Jorge Luis Bourjos (Walewander) Posted: October 18, 2012 at 11:17 PM (#4276298)

I was at the game tonite - my best live sports experience by a country mile. I was a few rows behind the really annoying ballcap guy from the Ford commercials. When Cabrera hit that bomb I was jumping and screaming with joy.

Condolences to the Yankee fans here, and congratulations on a tremendous season. Your team had two of my alltime favourite players, Ichiro and Granderson.

Now, to the World Series!!!

EAT EM UP TIGERS EAT EM UP
   36. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: October 18, 2012 at 11:18 PM (#4276301)
As a Tigers fan, I still find myself referring to the Jackson/Scherzer acquisitions as the "Granderson trade." No offense to Curtis, but time to knock that off.

GO TIGERS!!!
   37. ASmitty Posted: October 18, 2012 at 11:21 PM (#4276303)
Lots of people are screaming 88 wins right now, but as of today Detroit has won 95 games and the Yankees have won 98. Calm down.
   38. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: October 18, 2012 at 11:24 PM (#4276308)
This Yankees team broke the franchise record for homers. Cano had an MVP calibre season. Jeter had an outstanding season considering his age, ditto Pettitte. Ichiro Suzuki played very well for Yankees despite everyone thinking he was done. Kuroda pitched prety well. They won the division and won a playoff series.

If that's a horrible season for a fan........
   39. Cowboy Popup Posted: October 18, 2012 at 11:39 PM (#4276316)
I think the bad part of this season, for me at least, is that for the first time in a long time, I'm not sure how the Yanks stay good after this year. However, Brian Cashman is better at that sort of thing than I am, so I'll worry about it later.

Obviously, by the end of the year, the Yanks weren't hitting well as a team. Whether the long season and injuries wore down the offense, or it was a bad stretch, I don't know, but it wasn't a ton of fun watching this team just whiff with RISP for the last couple of months. Still, gotta love the middle infield, Kuroda, Phelps, Eric Chavez, and Martin hitting 21 HRs somehow.

I was sad that Robertson had something of a down year, ditto CC, but they were still pretty darn good. I guess I'll have another year to wait and see if Hughes "figures it out" but his stuff is so diminished at this point that being a 3/4 guy doesn't really disappoint me. I don't like Pettitte, Soriano, Rodriguez or Teixeria. I won't have to worry about two of those guys next year, maybe three. I never really saw a reason to get excited about Ivan Nova so his weird season didn't really matter to me.

Losing Mo for a season was horrible, and I suspect that's a large part of why a lot of people were down on this team's likeability. Also, for the first time in a long time, there is absolutely no one on the farm who looks like they can contribute next year. Banuelos got hurt, Betances turned into Brackman, maybe Corban Joseph gets a shot to stick as a utility guy, that takes some of the fun out of it. I am excited that Brett Gardner will be back next year, I love that guy.
   40. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: October 18, 2012 at 11:41 PM (#4276317)
As a Tigers fan, I still find myself referring to the Jackson/Scherzer acquisitions as the "Granderson trade." No offense to Curtis, but time to knock that off.


I actually said at the time that I thought Scherzer was the best player in the deal. Given how he's pitched against the Yankees (my only exposure to him) since then, I suspect I was right.
   41. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: October 18, 2012 at 11:51 PM (#4276322)
So you're saying those women could have gotten pregnant.

No, if she's legitimately underage, the body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down.
   42. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: October 18, 2012 at 11:54 PM (#4276324)
the presence of 3 likely all-time Yankees on this team,


Jeter obviously. A Rod? OK. Pettitte? Well, depends on how big your staff is.
   43. zachtoma Posted: October 18, 2012 at 11:58 PM (#4276326)
Well, depends on how big your staff is.


That's what she said.

I'm sorry.
   44. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: October 18, 2012 at 11:58 PM (#4276328)
Three words, Miserlou.

Russell.
Coltrane.
Martin.
   45. Famous Original Joe C Posted: October 19, 2012 at 12:16 AM (#4276334)
@dadboner is so psyched right now, you guys.

Happy for the Tigers and their fans. Rooting for them to get it done this time.
   46. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 19, 2012 at 12:20 AM (#4276336)
the presence of 3 likely all-time Yankees on this team,

Jeter obviously. A Rod? OK. Pettitte? Well, depends on how big your staff is

Cano would be the third. Folks may quibble over whether he has already surpassed Lazzeri, Gordon or Randolph, but he seems likely to eventually be the consensus All-Time Yankee second baseman, assuming he signs another contract and avoids major injury.
   47. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: October 19, 2012 at 12:30 AM (#4276344)
If you think the Yankee fans are bad, check out some of this Red Sox chatters when Boston was playing poorly but had yet to make clear that it was a lost season. Not pretty.

hey, whoa now, settle down. Many of us knew the Sox royally sucked from early on. Once Papi went down, the team was a whole bag of suck. The SP never got into a groove where you thought that even if they didn't score they could still win. If they didn't score, they lost...unless Buchholz was pitching, he had a solid year.

As for NY/Detroit. Sure NY hitters looked very poor, but I give credit where it's due and Detroit's SP did the job, shut them down and just generally looked great doing it. Maybe NY could have been more patient? Doesn't matter, Tigers SP did the job and I give them the credit. Congrats to Detroit, their fans and particularly, the guys that post here. Hope your guys go one better.
   48. Pat Rapper's Delight Posted: October 19, 2012 at 12:41 AM (#4276351)
I'm not sure how the Yanks stay good after this year.

Same way they always do... by writing a bunch of checks with many zeros at the end.
   49. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: October 19, 2012 at 12:45 AM (#4276353)
All I could think during the post-game festivities was that I haven't seen two people hold up someone like Leyland and Dombrowski did Illitch since Weekend at Bernie's.

As a Michigan native, Facebook is utterly unbearable right now. I feel good for some close friends, who suffered through the Tony Clark and Bobby Higginson era of Detroit Tigers baseball. As for the rest of the people who didn't acknowledge Detroit had a Major League baseball team until two weeks ago...
   50. madvillain Posted: October 19, 2012 at 12:55 AM (#4276357)
As a Michigan native, Facebook is utterly unbearable right now. I feel good for some close friends, who suffered through the Tony Clark and Bobby Higginson era of Detroit Tigers baseball. As for the rest of the people who didn't acknowledge Detroit had a Major League baseball team until two weeks ago...


Yea, it happens. Ride the wave man, ride the wave. Hopefully pitcher defense won't be a deciding factor.
   51. Dr. Vaux Posted: October 19, 2012 at 01:12 AM (#4276361)
For a while, Tony Clark and Bobby Higginson seemed like a golden age!
   52. DFA Posted: October 19, 2012 at 01:43 AM (#4276366)
Congrats Tiger fans! Too bad VMart couldn't be apart of it...
   53. Into the Void Posted: October 19, 2012 at 02:59 AM (#4276378)
Is Ichiro a free agent this season or after 2013? I would love to see him in LF for the Giants for a year or two.
   54. Nasty Nate Posted: October 19, 2012 at 03:17 AM (#4276380)
My team had the worst damn season they've experienced in 40+ years, but seeing this series salves the wounds a bit.


I will repeat this.
   55. Jim Kaat on a hot Gene Roof Posted: October 19, 2012 at 06:01 AM (#4276387)
Yay for the Tigers! In a perfect world, the Cardinals would have been the successful executors of the baseball equivalent of Operation Valkyrie, with the Orioles being my second choice, but the world's not perfect, so I'll be content with the Yankees getting not just beat but utterly humiliated on the national stage by anyone. Detroit happened to be the agent of God this time. If my Cardinals make it to the WS, I won't care much if they lose. If SF advances, I will be the hugest Tigers fan on earth next week.

BTW - IF the Cards make it, then Gerald Laird might be the Tigers' secret weapon.
   56. RollingWave Posted: October 19, 2012 at 06:12 AM (#4276388)
Is Ichiro a free agent this season or after 2013? I would love to see him in LF for the Giants for a year or two


He fits right into their team concept.... or at least the old team concept.

   57. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: October 19, 2012 at 06:53 AM (#4276394)
congrats to the tigers

tiger fans please enjoy the win and roll your eyes as the talk is focused on "whither alex?" versus "hooray tigers"

   58. Russ Posted: October 19, 2012 at 06:57 AM (#4276396)
So at what point is Jim Leyland going to go from some consideration to serious consideration for the HOF? Assuming that the triumverate of LaRussa-Cox-Torre go in, the only guys with more wins who aren't in are Piniella and Mauch. Leyland has managed 3 franchises that were pretty crappy in and around the time he started managing them to 7 postseasons in 21 years. I'm rooting for the Tigers so that Leyland can get that second WS win, which I think helps his dossier a lot.
   59. RollingWave Posted: October 19, 2012 at 08:06 AM (#4276401)
Well, I guess we should blame the new format, as in... having more than 2 division ;) or else the Yanks woulda just drew the A's in the ALCS right ?

Have fun getting beaten by the Cardinals again in the WS Tigers :P


   60. Howie Menckel Posted: October 19, 2012 at 08:12 AM (#4276404)

I realize that a lot of baseball fans are not football or hockey fans as well, but as I mentioned in another thread, the defending Super Bowl champion Giants not only were an 88-win-like 9-7, they were OUTSCORED IN THE REGULAR SEASON.

Also, the 8th-seeded Western Conference champion Kings defeated the No. 6 seed Eastern Conference champ Devils to win the Stanley Cup this year.

I don't disagree with all of the hand-wringing, but it's not like baseball has a unique problem here.

   61. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: October 19, 2012 at 08:30 AM (#4276408)
as a brewer fan i am happy for prince

he is a fine hitter and has now helped multiple teams get to the playoffs. prince also enjoys the spotlight. he certainly knows national league pitching. prince has clubbed 20 homers off the cards and slugged almost .500 even with st. louis walking him as much as possible to go after the typically weak number 5 hitters in the brewers lineup.

san fran has had better success but most of that is the san fran ballpark as prince is an alley hitter and san fran takes away his left-center homer power.

   62. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: October 19, 2012 at 08:55 AM (#4276418)
So at what point is Jim Leyland going to go from some consideration to serious consideration for the HOF? Assuming that the triumverate of LaRussa-Cox-Torre go in, the only guys with more wins who aren't in are Piniella and Mauch. Leyland has managed 3 franchises that were pretty crappy in and around the time he started managing them to 7 postseasons in 21 years. I'm rooting for the Tigers so that Leyland can get that second WS win, which I think helps his dossier a lot.


That second WS title would be a big push. Scanning the list of managers at BBRef it looks like the only pure managers in with one WS title are Herzog and Weaver. I think Herzog is a pretty good comp actually. While he won just once he got close many times (70s Royals=90s Pirates?) and if the Tigers lose next week Herzog and Leyland would have each gone 1-2 in World Series appearances. Leyland has a pretty strong edge over Herzog in wins but is just a shade over .500. That should be a number that improves over the next couple of years (if he stays) but I think it would be tough for a manager to get in being under .500 without the type of "hook" that 2 WS titles provides.
   63. zack Posted: October 19, 2012 at 09:02 AM (#4276424)

I don't disagree with all of the hand-wringing, but it's not like baseball has a unique problem here.


Well if anything MLB should have the least problem, with the longest regular season and the most exclusive playoffs, even after expanding the format. But don't give them any ideas, if MLB became playoff sluts like the NHL or NBA, you'd have 78 win teams winning occasionally.
   64. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: October 19, 2012 at 09:05 AM (#4276427)
jose

jimmy has a lot of good relations in the press and i think most folks understand why the overall would be under .500 if it did finish there given the circumstances in florida and pittsburgh when he didn't have the horses

when leyland has had the talent he has won except 1999 when by his own admission he stunk and maybe in 2008 when his pitching was awful and i guess folks could roll him in as part of the problem.

and in his time in detroit the team has kept winning as the roster from 2006 has overturned completely. it's verlander i think as the only holdover. sure the owner has spent money but a lot of teams buy talent and nothing really happens. leyland has kept them in the thick of it.

he's a borderline hall of famer right now i think
   65. ASmitty Posted: October 19, 2012 at 09:07 AM (#4276431)
I realize that a lot of baseball fans are not football or hockey fans as well, but as I mentioned in another thread, the defending Super Bowl champion Giants not only were an 88-win-like 9-7, they were OUTSCORED IN THE REGULAR SEASON.


I mentioned this above, but it's not like post season games aren't games. The Yankees won 95 games in the regular season, but we're 3-6 in the postseason. Detroit is 7-2. The winning percentage gap is already closing.

Sure the Giants were 8-8 last year, but they then went 4-0 in the postseason, beating the Falcons, Packers, 49ers, and Patriots in the process. Certainly helped their win percentage and strength of schedule when all was said and done.
   66. SoSH U at work Posted: October 19, 2012 at 09:09 AM (#4276432)
Scanning the list of managers at BBRef it looks like the only pure managers in with one WS title are Herzog and Weaver.


Cox will be a one-WS guy as well. But yeah, a second WS win for Leyland, with a different club, will be huge. I think it gets him in eventually.

I don't disagree with all of the hand-wringing, but it's not like baseball has a unique problem here.


No, but it used to be unique in its solution.

And third the comment about the Tigers bringing just a little bit of joy to what was a lost season for a Sox fan. Thanks fellers.
   67. Howie Menckel Posted: October 19, 2012 at 09:15 AM (#4276440)

"Sure the Giants were 8-8 last year, but they then went 4-0 in the postseason, beating the Falcons, Packers, 49ers, and Patriots in the process. Certainly helped their win percentage and strength of schedule when all was said and done."

9-7
home game against a Falcons team with a better record
beat 49ers on a butterfingered punt returner

dominated the Packers and beat a tough Patriots team, for sure

   68. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: October 19, 2012 at 09:24 AM (#4276446)

Cox will be a one-WS guy as well. But yeah, a second WS win for Leyland, with a different club, will be huge. I think it gets him in eventually.


Good call, dumb oversight on my part.

I think Leyland's contemporaries hurt him though. While I agree with Harvey that he's borderline right now it will be interesting to see how many managers they are willing to induct from one era. Torre, Cox and LaRussa are all in of course and I think there are a bunch of guys who fit my perception of Leyland that are going to be at least considered; Francona, Scioscia, Baker, Bochy all have cause to be looked at (I'd keep all out at the moment). A second title on top of his career length and accomplishment I think separates Leyland pretty decisively from that second group (and he's already ahead in my book).

It's quite possible, even likely, that I am simply not appreciating how well regarded Leyland is. Guys like Torre, Baker and Francona get the "players manager" thing, Scioscia and Showalter are the "tacticians" and I'm just not quite sure what Leyland's "hook" is. I just feel like managers need something that pops their resume to get in. I think he's outstanding, I just don't quite know if he's appreciated.

Harveys probably has a better handle on it when he says Leyland has good relations in the press. Hopefully because I think he's deserving.
   69. Tom Nawrocki Posted: October 19, 2012 at 09:25 AM (#4276447)
Leyland has managed 3 franchises that were pretty crappy


Four.
   70. JJ1986 Posted: October 19, 2012 at 09:26 AM (#4276448)
beat 49ers on a butterfingered punt returner


Maybe, but their defense also stifled the 49ers who had just dominated the Saints defense the week before.
   71. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: October 19, 2012 at 09:27 AM (#4276449)
jose

i don't think it's a secret that the press likes leyland a lot because he is considered 'plain spoken'
   72. BDC Posted: October 19, 2012 at 09:28 AM (#4276450)
Along these lines, I have to reckon that the Tigers are the first seventh-place team to win a pennant. At least I can't quickly think of another. The 2006 Cardinals, 2000 Yankees, and 1987 Twins were all fifth in their leagues overall, the 1973 Mets fourth (in a smaller league). Seventh place is pretty shaky in terms of selling the WS as a great matchup.

That said, I don't know that the 2012 Tigers are especially weak historically, for a pennant winner. Verlander and Cabrera have established themselves as the best pitcher and hitter in the AL right now (I know about Mike Trout, obviously, but he's only been doing it for five months; Cabrera is truly a proven star). They've got some good young pitchers, Prince Fielder is a hell of a hitter, Austin Jackson had an excellent year. Put them in the Diamond Mind time machine and they will win World Series against a lot of champions.
   73. Tom Nawrocki Posted: October 19, 2012 at 09:33 AM (#4276451)
Along these lines, I have to reckon that the Tigers are the first seventh-place team to win a pennant. At least I can't quickly think of another. The 2006 Cardinals, 2000 Yankees, and 1987 Twins were all fifth in their leagues overall, the 1973 Mets fourth (in a smaller league). Seventh place is pretty shaky in terms of selling the WS as a great matchup.


I figured a Tigers-Cardinals World Series would break the record for fewest regular season wins by the WS combatants, but the 1973 A's (94) and Mets (82) series ties them at just 176 combined wins.
   74. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: October 19, 2012 at 09:35 AM (#4276453)
So at what point is Jim Leyland going to go from some consideration to serious consideration for the HOF?


He even wised up and didn't use Valverde after Game 1.

   75. ASmitty Posted: October 19, 2012 at 09:38 AM (#4276455)
9-7
home game against a Falcons team with a better record
beat 49ers on a butterfingered punt returner



And none of their regular season losses were tough losses? I can see saying that the Giants weren't the best team in football last year, but they won their division and they won the playoffs. They had a .650 winning percentage (Counting playoffs) and a tough SOS. They were not an embarrassing champion. Hell, the playoffs, if you play in all four rounds, is 25% as long as the entire NFL regular season.

Detroit is in that same boat for me. They won their division. Their record, while not sterling, and has a chance to be very respectable by the time the postseason is through.
   76. zack Posted: October 19, 2012 at 09:39 AM (#4276456)

It's quite possible, even likely, that I am simply not appreciating how well regarded Leyland is. Guys like Torre, Baker and Francona get the "players manager" thing, Scioscia and Showalter are the "tacticians" and I'm just not quite sure what Leyland's "hook" is. I just feel like managers need something that pops their resume to get in. I think he's outstanding, I just don't quite know if he's appreciated.


Do beat writers still smoke? My enduring image of Leyland is stealing a smoke everywhere he could.
   77. SoSH U at work Posted: October 19, 2012 at 09:41 AM (#4276458)

Four.


I think Jimmy would prefer you forgot about No. 4 come Hall of Fame voting time.

I think Leyland's contemporaries hurt him though. While I agree with Harvey that he's borderline right now it will be interesting to see how many managers they are willing to induct from one era. Torre, Cox and LaRussa are all in of course and I think there are a bunch of guys who fit my perception of Leyland that are going to be at least considered; Francona, Scioscia, Baker, Bochy all have cause to be looked at (I'd keep all out at the moment). A second title on top of his career length and accomplishment I think separates Leyland pretty decisively from that second group (and he's already ahead in my book).


The top three will go in right away. Leyland (or whomever else emerges) will have a longer wait. But I think a Leyland with two WS victories for different clubs gets the call eventually.
   78. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: October 19, 2012 at 11:40 AM (#4276573)
Good night Yanks. I wish you had had the decency to lose to the Orioles, but then you just wouldn't be the Yankees if you did that.


They actually might have been better off if they had lost to the O's:

-- They could chalk it up to a tough series, nothing else.

-- They would have avoided the whole A-Rod drama. Oh, the fans would still be screaming that A-Rod can't play in October (conveniently forgetting 2009), but it wouldn't have gotten to the ridiculous level it reached.

-- Jeter would be whole
   79. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 19, 2012 at 12:02 PM (#4276593)

I realize that a lot of baseball fans are not football or hockey fans as well, but as I mentioned in another thread, the defending Super Bowl champion Giants not only were an 88-win-like 9-7, they were OUTSCORED IN THE REGULAR SEASON.


My favorite non-baseball team of all time is the 1988 Kansas Jayhawks, who were not ranked at all after the month of January, but have a championship trophy sitting in Allen Fieldhouse.

I recognize they were not the best team in college basketball that year, but they were the champs.

The Nats were the best team in baseball this year. But no one will remember that five years from now. Maybe there should be something like the President's Trophy to recognize regular season success, but it will still be overshadowed by the World Championship.
   80. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: October 19, 2012 at 12:51 PM (#4276634)
The Nats were the best team in baseball this year.

Up to June, maybe. July through October, it was the A's.
   81. franoscar Posted: October 19, 2012 at 02:29 PM (#4276692)
Omar Infante was on the 2006 team.
(2006 Tigers team)
   82. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: October 19, 2012 at 02:39 PM (#4276703)
The Nats were the best team in baseball this year. But no one will remember that five years from now.

Heck most Phillies fans can't remember that the team won 102 games in 2011. Heck you hear/read things like the Phils have gotten worse each year since 2008. Which is true in that they got eliminated one round earlier each year (not even making it this year). Yet they increased their win total in 09, 10 and 11. Obviously not this year. :(
   83. zack Posted: October 19, 2012 at 03:23 PM (#4276746)
The Nats were the best team in baseball this year. But no one will remember that five years from now. Maybe there should be something like the President's Trophy to recognize regular season success, but it will still be overshadowed by the World Championship.


Except most (deluded) hockey fans treat the Presiden't Trophy as an object of derision. Or maybe that's just cause the Canucks have won the last two.
   84. RMc's desperate, often sordid world Posted: October 19, 2012 at 03:57 PM (#4276783)
Except most (deluded) hockey fans treat the President's Trophy as an object of derision

I was explaining this concept to my wife last night, during the Tigers victory celebration when they were proudly holding up the trophy for winning the AL. In hockey, players don't skate around with (or touch, or even look at) the Prez Trophy, nor the ones they get for winning their conference playoffs (Campbell/Wales). The Cup's the only thing that matters, baby.

And now, just for fun, here are the career stats for a couple of old minor leaguers.
   85. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: October 19, 2012 at 04:13 PM (#4276796)
Along these lines, I have to reckon that the Tigers are the first seventh-place team to win a pennant. At least I can't quickly think of another. The 2006 Cardinals, 2000 Yankees, and 1987 Twins were all fifth in their leagues overall, the 1973 Mets fourth (in a smaller league). Seventh place is pretty shaky in terms of selling the WS as a great matchup.

When I think of World Series matchups that don't involve the Yankees, I think of how they're playing at the moment, the potential pitching matchups, and the length of their franchise tradition, which includes past World Series between the two teams. Seems to me that the Tigers and the Cardinals win on all counts, and besides, they've also got great looking uniforms. IMO this'll be a great World Series to look forward to.

And assuming the Cardinals finish off the Giants, it's not as if either team is backing in. They'll both have beaten the best teams in their leagues and five 90-win teams between them. That's good enough for me.

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