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Friday, May 02, 2014

CBSSPORTS.COM:Watch rare video footage of the 1919 World Series

Just click the link and watch, its worth 4 minutes of your time. though no sound.

odds are meatwad is drunk Posted: May 02, 2014 at 01:50 AM | 56 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: 1919, chicago white sox, cincinati reds, reds, super old video, white sox

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   1. Greg K Posted: May 02, 2014 at 08:41 AM (#4698708)
That was a really fun watch. These Pathe newsreels are a real gold mine.

Though just because its too early in the morning to stay entirely positive, I love this comment below the clip:

"Classy fans dressed in shirts and ties.....no a$$holes running out on the field or throwing beer around in the stands.....no one looking at their cell phones or taking selfies so their jacka$$ friends can see them, rather than watching the game that they paid money to watch....the baseball players weren't self-righteous morons who sprain their eyelashes and go on the DL for 3 months like these lazy punks we have today. It must have been nice to be a baseball fan back then."

Yeah, if only we had strong moral characters like Chick Gandil and Happy Felsch in the league today!
   2. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: May 02, 2014 at 08:53 AM (#4698714)
This is a fantastic find. I especially like the clip of fans following the results in New York, standing outside of a building waiting for updates to be posted on a gigantic mechanical baseball diamond billboard.

Now any time these film-focused treasure hunters want to disgorge all that Harry Greb fighting footage is ok with me.
   3. Swoboda is freedom Posted: May 02, 2014 at 09:05 AM (#4698721)
Not only was Cicotte throwing the game, he wasn't backing up the catcher either.
   4. Hal Chase School of Professionalism Posted: May 02, 2014 at 09:35 AM (#4698738)
Not only was Cicotte throwing the game, he wasn't backing up the catcher either.


Hey, Cicotte was a pro. It wasn't any half-assed tanking, like that malingerer Jackson. Of course, Eddie was smart enough to get his money in advance.
   5. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: May 02, 2014 at 09:39 AM (#4698741)
It doesn't appear the park had dugouts. Wow. Does anyone know when dugouts became a regular feature at ballparks?
   6. Textbook Editor Posted: May 02, 2014 at 09:41 AM (#4698744)

Not only was Cicotte throwing the game, he wasn't backing up the catcher either.


Heh. I came here to make this exact comment.

I wonder if--perhaps--this wasn't a routine thing for the pitcher to do in 1919? I have no idea when that practice started.
   7. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: May 02, 2014 at 09:43 AM (#4698747)
So what year did fielders stop leaving gloves in the field when the half-inning ended, as the leftfielder did in that clip? I didn't realize it was still going on in 1919.

   8. Voros McCracken of Pinkus Posted: May 02, 2014 at 09:46 AM (#4698748)
So what year did fielders stop leaving gloves in the field when the half-inning ended, as the leftfielder did in that clip? I didn't realize it was still going on in 1919.

When Ruben Rivera joined the league.
   9. AROM Posted: May 02, 2014 at 09:47 AM (#4698749)
no one looking at their cell phones or taking selfies so their jacka$$ friends can see them, rather than watching the game that they paid money to watch


It was a few years before Lou Gehrig introduced cell phones to the dugout.
   10. ursus arctos Posted: May 02, 2014 at 09:48 AM (#4698750)
It continued into the early 50s.

The practice ended on Nov. 3, 1953, following two days of meetings by the official Playing Rules Committee in Baseball Commissioner Ford Frick's office. The new rule was reported in the next day's editions of the New York Times. In part, that story read as follows:

"Another new rules calls for the removal from the playing field of all gloves. At the completion of each half inning, the outfielders and infielders must carry their gloves with them into the dugout."
   11. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: May 02, 2014 at 10:02 AM (#4698767)
2 - That shot is what most grabbed me as well.
   12. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: May 02, 2014 at 10:09 AM (#4698775)
I also loved that giant mechanical scoreboard in New York, which was a common offering of newspapers in virtually every city in the country.

And the lack of dugouts in a way was just an extension of the custom of accommodating overflow crowds by letting them sit in foul territory and even in some cases stand in the outer reaches of the outfield, roped in to separate them from the game action until a ball came their way. That practice gradually died out, but it wasn't until 1949 that we saw the last case of it, after which it was formally outlawed.

   13. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: May 02, 2014 at 10:20 AM (#4698780)
2 - That shot is what most grabbed me as well.


For the 1910 Jack Johnson vs. James Jeffries heavyweight title fight in Nevada, a huge contraption of a similar nature was set up in New York City allowing New Yorkers to follow the action of the "fight of the century". Based on telegraph updates of the action a series of red or white lights would flash corresponding to which fighter was building momentum and landing blows. We have excellent-quality footage of the fight itself (which was just added to the national film registry a few years ago) but I've always wished I could see some footage of the crowds watching the scoreboard 1500 miles away, and see their spirits rise and fall with the flashing of bulbs as they played across the board.
   14. Moe Greene Posted: May 02, 2014 at 10:36 AM (#4698794)
When Ruben Rivera joined the league.

Well, this is a winner.
   15. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: May 02, 2014 at 11:56 AM (#4698852)
I especially like the clip of fans following the results in New York, standing outside of a building waiting for updates to be posted on a gigantic mechanical baseball diamond billboard.

!!! That was amazing. I would have never guessed that was going on. Hundreds of people standing around in New York City watching a mechanical billboard. Who knew?

   16. Dan Evensen Posted: May 02, 2014 at 12:11 PM (#4698861)
And the lack of dugouts in a way was just an extension of the custom of accommodating overflow crowds by letting them sit in foul territory and even in some cases stand in the outer reaches of the outfield, roped in to separate them from the game action until a ball came their way. That practice gradually died out, but it wasn't until 1949 that we saw the last case of it, after which it was formally outlawed.

I believe it was only outlawed in the Major Leagues. I distinctly remember standing in a roped-off section of the outfield for an (independent) Salt Lake Trappers game at Derke's Field in Salt Lake City sometime in either the late 80s or early 90s.
   17. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: May 02, 2014 at 12:17 PM (#4698862)
I've seen footage and pictures of those mechanical boards before - I just think that they're amazing. As a kid, I wanted one. As an adult, an older person gave me a Sharper Image digital version of that kind of thing and I was like... ew. Thanks?

I've never heard of the boxing version - thanks YR.
   18. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: May 02, 2014 at 12:19 PM (#4698865)
And the lack of dugouts in a way was just an extension of the custom of accommodating overflow crowds by letting them sit in foul territory and even in some cases stand in the outer reaches of the outfield, roped in to separate them from the game action until a ball came their way. That practice gradually died out, but it wasn't until 1949 that we saw the last case of it, after which it was formally outlawed.

I believe it was only outlawed in the Major Leagues. I distinctly remember standing in a roped-off section of the outfield for an (independent) Salt Lake Trappers game at Derke's Field in Salt Lake City sometime in either the late 80s or early 90s.


You're almost certainly right about that. Beyond your personal recollections, I'm pretty sure I remember fans in Havana overflowing the stands during the 1959 Junior World Series, and as recently as 2007 it was reported that there was an overflow crowd in Scranton/Wilkes-Barre to see Roger Clemens' third minor league tuneup before returning to the Bronx for his tryst with Suzyn Waldman.
   19. jdennis Posted: May 02, 2014 at 12:44 PM (#4698891)
I like how at the beginning all the smoke goes up out of the crowd and like half the crowd is smoking.
   20. jdennis Posted: May 02, 2014 at 12:46 PM (#4698893)
And how the park in the aerial shot has one little dirt parking lot like a country bar or something
   21. Greg K Posted: May 02, 2014 at 01:22 PM (#4698942)
I believe the clip of the gigantic mechanical baseball diamond billboard is in the section about the 1919 series in the Ken Burns movie. I'm 90% sure it's the same billboard as here, and somewhat sure it's the same footage. As I recall it looks identical.
   22. McCoy Posted: May 02, 2014 at 02:01 PM (#4698996)
Old clips like these really show why fielders left their gloves on the field. If you didn't it would likely get stolen by a hooligan.
   23. Hal Chase School of Professionalism Posted: May 02, 2014 at 02:50 PM (#4699045)
If you didn't it would likely get stolen by a hooligan.


Are you suggesting there were characters of low moral repute hanging around the 1919 World Series?

Handbags at dawn, Sirrah!
   24. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 02, 2014 at 02:51 PM (#4699047)
even in some cases stand in the outer reaches of the outfield, roped in to separate them from the game action until a ball came their way.


From the aerial shot it looked like there were people standing all along the warning track. Says a lot about how little of a role power played in the game.
   25. odds are meatwad is drunk Posted: May 02, 2014 at 02:56 PM (#4699053)
I wouldbt mind watching a game from the warning track. I think it would be pretty fun and a darn good view.
   26. Gotham Dave Posted: May 02, 2014 at 02:58 PM (#4699055)
From the aerial shot it looked like there were people standing all along the warning track. Says a lot about how little of a role power played in the game.

I wonder if they would've done this if the Red Sox had been playing in the Series...
   27. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: May 02, 2014 at 03:07 PM (#4699062)
From the aerial shot it looked like there were people standing all along the warning track. Says a lot about how little of a role power played in the game.

I'll use this as an excuse to link to one of my favorite box scores of all time. Note the park capacity (34,000), the actual attendance that day (45,715), and also the number of doubles (23).
   28. catseyepub Posted: May 02, 2014 at 03:17 PM (#4699069)
And the fan directly behind the Sox bench standing next to the standing Sox player......Billy Maharg
   29. odds are meatwad is drunk Posted: May 02, 2014 at 03:17 PM (#4699070)
And only one home run! Thats one weird game.
   30. esseff Posted: May 02, 2014 at 03:34 PM (#4699090)
Watch rare video footage of the 1919 World Series


video?
   31. DL from MN Posted: May 02, 2014 at 03:40 PM (#4699094)
Hundreds of people standing around in New York City watching a mechanical billboard.


It's the historical version of the gametracker application.
   32. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 02, 2014 at 03:42 PM (#4699098)
I wonder if they would've done this if the Red Sox had been playing in the Series...


Probably? Babe had just had his first big power season in 1919, hitting 29 HRs. He also started 15 games as a pitcher. So he wasn't yet THE BABE - I can't imagine MLB would have sacrificed getting that many more fans into the park, in what was (I gather) pretty standard practice then, based on what had to be perceived by many at the time as an oddity of a season by a single player. Gavvy Cravath was second in MLB in HRs with 12.
   33. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: May 02, 2014 at 06:44 PM (#4699244)
Probably? Babe had just had his first big power season in 1919, hitting 29 HRs. He also started 15 games as a pitcher. So he wasn't yet THE BABE - I can't imagine MLB would have sacrificed getting that many more fans into the park, in what was (I gather) pretty standard practice then, based on what had to be perceived by many at the time as an oddity of a season by a single player. Gavvy Cravath was second in MLB in HRs with 12.

I assumed this referred to the very short LF warning track at Fenway.

EDIT: if they even had a warning track, which I bet they didn't.
   34. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: May 02, 2014 at 08:54 PM (#4699296)
Warning tracks and padded fences first came along in the late 40's in the wake of Pete Reiser, and warning tracks became mandatory in 1950.
   35. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: May 02, 2014 at 09:10 PM (#4699306)
I think at least one of the Boston outfields had a hill instead of a warning track.
   36. The District Attorney Posted: May 02, 2014 at 09:12 PM (#4699308)
Heh, funny timing. Bill James, just a couple of days ago:
I just watched 'Eight Men Out' again last night. Well I don't dispute the fact that the players threw the series, the Cincinnati fans have always claimed that their team was just as good and could have won the game. Have you ever examined the issue, and do you have any input on it?

I think the Reds were the better team.
   37. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: May 02, 2014 at 09:27 PM (#4699322)
I think at least one of the Boston outfields had a hill instead of a warning track.

That was Fenway Park's "Duffy's Cliff", here described in Wiki. Take note of the concluding sentence:

From 1912 to 1933, there was a 10-foot (3.0 m) high incline in front of the then 25-foot (7.6 m)-high left field wall at Fenway Park, extending from the left-field foul pole to the center field flag pole. As a result, a left fielder had to play part of the territory running uphill (and back down). Boston's first star left fielder, Duffy Lewis, mastered the skill so well that the area became known as "Duffy's Cliff".[11]

The incline served two purposes: it was a support for a high wall and it was built to compensate for the difference in grades between the field and Lansdowne Street on the other side of that wall. The wall also served as a spectator-friendly seating area during the dead ball era when overflow crowds would sit on the incline behind ropes.
   38. bjhanke Posted: May 02, 2014 at 11:41 PM (#4699374)
Jolly - Crosley Field in Cincy had an incline in left field recently enough that I can remember seeing it on TV and having the announcers comment on its effect on LF play. I'm not completely sure that they got rid of it until they replaced the whole ballpark. I have a very vague memory of seeing MLB players leave their gloves on the ground in fair territory. I never saw a game live until 1954. Our family had the first TV on our block, so I must have seen it on that. I have no memory of anyone even mentioning roping off part of the outfield for overflow crowds, so that must have disappeared from MLB before the 1950s. I read somewhere that there is a world series game that turned on having the overflow crowd. For some reason, they not only let the crowd on the field, but the ground rule was that any ball that BOUNCED into the crowd was a homer. Not a ground rule double, a ground rule homer. Harry Hooper was the guy who hit two of these to win the game. Ground rules used to vary far more than they do now. The oddity of Lakefront in Chicago in the 1880s is that a ball hit over the RF fence was a ground rule double, no matter how far over the fence you hit it. So you could not hit a homer to RF at all, unless it was inside the park, and the RF fence was, of course, really close to home plate, so I doubt there were many inside jobs hit to RF in that park by anyone. The only year they let those balls be homers was 1884, when Ed Williamson (I think) set the single season record that Ruth's 29 broke. I still think that the game would be more fun if balls hit into the lower deck were ground rule triples, and you would have to hit it into the upper deck to get a homer. But that ain't gonna happen. - Brock Hanke
   39. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: May 03, 2014 at 12:03 AM (#4699388)
Brock,

You're right about the incline in Crosley Field, which I believe still existed up through the park's closing. FWIW the old Durham Athletic Park also had a similar slope at least up through the early 60's when I first saw a game there, and possibly beyond that.

The last overflow crowd onto a playing field in a Major League game was on Memorial Day in 1949, for a doubleheader in Griffith Stadium between the Nats and the Yankees. Immediately after that, the practice was outlawed and it's never returned on the Major League level.
   40. Good cripple hitter Posted: May 03, 2014 at 12:30 AM (#4699399)
I still think that the game would be more fun if balls hit into the lower deck were ground rule triples, and you would have to hit it into the upper deck to get a homer.


"Touch three bases, Joe! You'll never hit a bigger triple in your life!"

Actually if I could take MLB The Show and change the rules to create your ground rule triples, I'd play a season like that just to see what the impact might be. Come to think of it, it'd be fun if you could tinker with other rules. The AI would have to be able adapt to the changes but it'd be fun to run leagues with 5 ball walks, 10 inning games, or 22 man rosters.
   41. asinwreck Posted: May 03, 2014 at 12:47 AM (#4699406)
I'd rather have footage of 1917.
   42. Hal Chase School of Professionalism Posted: May 03, 2014 at 08:28 AM (#4699472)
And the fan directly behind the Sox bench standing next to the standing Sox player......Billy Maharg


There's a photo of Abe Atell sitting directly behind the bench in one of the Black Sox books, either Red Legs and Black Sox or Burying the Black Sox. I think it's the former.

It's kind of creepy how close people could be to the players in those days. I've always felt that one of the more underrated aspects of the scandal was that virtually nobody involved talked about it after the winter following the series. Schalk had some angry words right afterward, but then he clammed up for the rest of his life about it. Several made it clear that they still feared retribution even as old men if they told what they knew. I'm not sure how realistic that was, but from their perspective it probably seemed real. They had those guys right over their shoulders potentially reminding them that there was money riding on the game. Even more, they had to deal with that throughout 1920 before the scandal broke, when Asinof alleges that they were still tanking games. Smoky Joe Wood says in The Glory of Their Times that Cicotte told him "We don't dare win" in 1920.

Even the guys who were clean seemed to carry some of the stain from it, judging by their sparse comments (or lack thereof) for the rest of their lives.
   43. Publius Publicola Posted: May 03, 2014 at 08:52 AM (#4699484)
Watching the game 1000 miles away in New York- Arnold Rothstein.
   44. Publius Publicola Posted: May 03, 2014 at 08:54 AM (#4699487)
Pat MoranChick Gandil to whom Cincinnati owes its pennant winning team.


Fixed
   45. Publius Publicola Posted: May 03, 2014 at 08:57 AM (#4699488)
You're right about the incline in Crosley Field, which I believe still existed up through the park's closing. FWIW the old Durham Athletic Park also had a similar slope at least up through the early 60's when I first saw a game there, and possibly beyond that.


It did. It was still there until the end when the Bulls moved to the new park.
   46. Publius Publicola Posted: May 03, 2014 at 08:58 AM (#4699490)
I like how at 3:49, the White Sox confer on the mound and I can imagine the conversation:

"Ed, I think you're making it a little too obvious. Can you at least cover home when you groove one?"

   47. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: May 03, 2014 at 09:24 AM (#4699512)
There's a photo of Abe Atell sitting directly behind the bench in one of the Black Sox books, either Red Legs and Black Sox or Burying the Black Sox. I think it's the former.

It must be, since there's no picture like that in the latter book.

One interesting footnote about Burying The Black Sox is that there's an undated photo of Cicotte warming up in front of a dugout, which suggests that the dugouts in Comiskey were built for the 1920 season. The problem is that since the only difference between the White Sox home and road uniforms is that the road uniforms are a light shade of gray while the home uniforms are white, it's hard to say for sure whether the picture was taken at home or somewhere on the road. Peter Morris's second volume of A Game of Inches says that sunken dugouts were "the norm" shortly after 1899, which means that either way, by 1919 Comiskey Park was probably about the last holdout in having the benches at field level.
   48. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 03, 2014 at 01:19 PM (#4699606)
Pat MoranChick Gandil to whom Cincinnati owes its pennant winning team.

Fixed


Silly boy, the WS was fixed, not the pennant.
   49. Morty Causa Posted: May 03, 2014 at 01:31 PM (#4699611)
Watching the game 1000 miles away in New York- Arnold Rothstein.

If I remember correctly, Rothstein's mouthpiece, the equally renown Big Bill Fallon, claimed his client was a victim of mistaken identity. It was harder for state courts back then to exercise jurisdiction across state lines.

   50. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: May 03, 2014 at 03:43 PM (#4699658)
One of the many blessings of a Times subscription is that for the past month or so you've been able to access an ultra-clear PDF of any article in the paper from 1851 through 1980, with photos included. The best thing is that the feature is so completely user friendly that it takes about 10 seconds between the time you punch in the date to the time you can begin reading.

November 5, 1928, page 1: Rothstein, Gambler, Mysteriously Shot; Refuses To Talk
   51. greenback calls it soccer Posted: May 03, 2014 at 03:54 PM (#4699664)
which means that either way, by 1919 Comiskey Park was probably about the last holdout in having the benches at field level.

Am I misunderstanding, or is the video taken from Crosley Field?
   52. Tom Nawrocki Posted: May 03, 2014 at 03:57 PM (#4699671)
It's kind of creepy how close people could be to the players in those days. I've always felt that one of the more underrated aspects of the scandal was that virtually nobody involved talked about it after the winter following the series. Schalk had some angry words right afterward, but then he clammed up for the rest of his life about it. Several made it clear that they still feared retribution even as old men if they told what they knew. I'm not sure how realistic that was, but from their perspective it probably seemed real. They had those guys right over their shoulders potentially reminding them that there was money riding on the game.


Witness, for instance, Gabby Hartnett taking his marching orders from Al Capone.
   53. BDC Posted: May 03, 2014 at 03:58 PM (#4699672)
BTW, does anyone have an idea where in New York that scoreboard was set up? There's a small railed park, a colonnade building that comes into view as the camera pans, and a shopfront that I can't quite read. Looking for a needle in a haystack, at that rate ... the streets look too narrow to be one of the various squares at a Broadway crossing, but perspective can be deceiving …
   54. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: May 03, 2014 at 05:39 PM (#4699718)
which means that either way, by 1919 Comiskey Park was probably about the last holdout in having the benches at field level.

Am I misunderstanding, or is the video taken from Crosley Field?


Yeah, you're right, that field level bench shot was from the first game. I got it transposed because the newsreel showed it after the shots from game three in Comiskey. There's a brief long range shot in the Comiskey footage at the 0:32 mark that shows the players alongside the rail on the first base side, and it does appear that they might be in some sort of a shallow dugout.

BTW, does anyone have an idea where in New York that scoreboard was set up? There's a small railed park, a colonnade building that comes into view as the camera pans, and a shopfront that I can't quite read. Looking for a needle in a haystack, at that rate ... the streets look too narrow to be one of the various squares at a Broadway crossing, but perspective can be deceiving …

The scoreboard in the newsreel was the one sponsored by the old Sun newspaper, which according to the 1914 Trow's Directory was located in the Metropolitan Tower at Madison at East 23rd, across from Madison Square Park.
   55. BDC Posted: May 03, 2014 at 05:49 PM (#4699721)
Excellent, thanks, Andy. "Forgotten New York" kinds of locations are one of my obsessions. The heck with Chicago and Cincinnati :)
   56. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: May 03, 2014 at 05:53 PM (#4699724)
Excellent, thanks, Andy. "Forgotten New York" kinds of locations are one of my obsessions. The heck with Chicago and Cincinnati :)

Google "New York City directories" and you'll find tons of links that will help you locate addresses like that. That's where I found that 1914 Trow's, which listed the Sun's address as 254 Metropolitan Tower. I got the address of Metropolitan Tower by having a hunch that it was an historic landmark, and from there finding the street address was easy.

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