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Saturday, August 20, 2011

Chipper Jones to Play in 2012

Chipper Jones said he will return to play for the Braves in 2012, ending speculation that the 39-year-old third baseman might retire after this season and walk away with a year left on his contract.

CFBF Rides The Zombie Ice Dragon Posted: August 20, 2011 at 08:16 PM | 37 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: August 20, 2011 at 10:58 PM (#3904986)
Good to hear. He's a no doubt 1st ballot HoF'er to me. That may be because I saw him most killing the Mets.
   2. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: August 20, 2011 at 11:32 PM (#3905014)
If Chipper hit all the time like he did against the Mets (.318/.416/.557) he'd be even more assured of a Hall of Fame spot. As it stands, he's probably the second best switch-hitter of all-time and easily a Hall of Famer. Though he'll probably end up having to wait a year or two because (a) some clowns aren't voting for anyone from the "PED era" and (b) he's unlikely to have 3000 hits or 500 HR
   3. flournoy Posted: August 21, 2011 at 12:41 AM (#3905064)
I really have no idea who thought that Chipper might retire after this season, but those people aren't very smart.
   4. Famous Original Joe C Posted: August 21, 2011 at 12:54 AM (#3905077)
I really have no idea who thought that Chipper might retire after this season, but those people aren't very smart.

Well, he did say last year "If I have another bad year, I'm going to retire."
   5. zachtoma Posted: August 21, 2011 at 01:06 AM (#3905093)
He's not having a bad year though. He's hitting for noticeably higher power than he did in 09-10, though his walk rate is down as well. Chipper's also kind of capricious, to be honest - he's just hit HRs in back to back games, he's feeling really good about himself.
   6. CFBF Rides The Zombie Ice Dragon Posted: August 21, 2011 at 01:42 AM (#3905126)
This puts Frank Wren in a difficult spot when it comes to upgrading the offense in the off-season. The Braves seem locked in to six of eight positions, assuming (and God I hope correctly) that they're committed to Heyward in right. The only possible open positions are shortstop, where Alex Gonzalez is both bad and in a contract year, and left field, where Martin Prado's been fairly disappointing with the bat. But the Braves love Prado, and I don't think they're willing to make him an over-qualified super sub for 2011. That just leaves shortstop, where it's not easy to find an offensive plus (though finding an improvement on the execrable Gonzalez should be eminently possible).

My assumption was that Chipper would retire, Prado would move to third and the Braves could finally find a masher in left. That seems to be out of the question now.
   7. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: August 21, 2011 at 02:09 AM (#3905141)
This puts Frank Wren in a difficult spot when it comes to upgrading the offense in the off-season.
i'd be very careful about overreacting if i were him. you've got a really, really good leadoff man in bourn. you've got the best hitting catcher in baseball. you've got two very young, very high upside hitters in freeman and heyward. uggla is probably not going to be as horrendous as he was to open this season. chipper is still very good. prado is decent enough, and could be more if this year was an abberation.

you people really do have everything you need already on hand. looking at the personnel, i think a more SABR-oriented lineup would give you a nice boost. something like bourn-freeman-prado-mccann-jones-heyward-uggla-SS

you'd be putting both heyward and freeman in positions where they could grow as hitters, but at the same time, you'd leave them free of the pressure of being middle of the order run producers.

i think yours is a situation where tinkering around the edges would be much more beneficial than wholesale changes.
   8. zachtoma Posted: August 21, 2011 at 02:13 AM (#3905143)
of course, you could go the route of not trading the 3rd best shortstop in baseball straight-up for about the 45th best. then you aren't in such a "difficult spot".

seriously, try and pick up the best available glove man for SS, or give Tyler Pastornicky a shot, and send A-Gon to the bench. He has a .259 OBP and he's not making up for it in the field. Everyone talks about how bad Adam Dunn and Alex Rios have been, A-Gon may be having the worst season of all.
   9. CFBF Rides The Zombie Ice Dragon Posted: August 21, 2011 at 02:23 AM (#3905146)

of course, you could go the route of not trading the 3rd best shortstop in baseball straight-up for about the 45th best. then you aren't in such a "difficult spot".


Yes, it was a bad trade. On the other hand, obsessively carping about one of the few missteps in the otherwise excellent tenure of Frank Wren strikes me as myopic at best.
   10. zachtoma Posted: August 21, 2011 at 02:35 AM (#3905149)
I don't have it in for Frank Wren, I agree that he's been pretty solid at the helm of the Braves - he has plenty of good trades to his name and the draft picks and prospects have been flourishing in recent years. He's put together a phenomenal young pitching staff that is the envy of every organization in baseball. And it doesn't help the team to harp on a past mistake - but many Braves fans aren't convinced it was a bad move, which baffles me. They didn't just shoot themselves in the foot, they took a chainsaw to the whole leg. They turned one of their core assets into the most abysmal everyday player since Jeff Francoeur. And it was 100% self-inflicted. The bleeding hasn't stopped. I'm sorry that I'm not over it, it was a tragic misstep. I don't like how many Braves fans just paper over it or make excuses for it.
   11. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: August 21, 2011 at 02:43 AM (#3905151)
1. Alex Gonzalez has been outstanding defensively. If your defensive metrics don't have him saving runs, your defensive metrics are wrong.

2. The Braves will happily resign him for 2012 if they don't think Tyler Pastornicky is ready.

3. Yunel Escobar was traded for reasons completely unrelated to his obvious offensive skills (when he's interested enough to try.)

4. When healthy, Chipper is the 2nd best hitter on the team. If Heyward gets his #### together, he could take that title, but right now, the only Braves hitter better than healthy Zombie Chipper is Brian McCann.

5. Frank Wren is really damned good.
   12. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: August 21, 2011 at 02:48 AM (#3905153)
He's put together a phenomenal young pitching staff that is the envy of every organization in baseball.
:)
   13. spike Posted: August 21, 2011 at 02:53 AM (#3905156)
And as much as I despised the trade, I think that's really on Cox more so than Wren.
   14. zachtoma Posted: August 21, 2011 at 02:57 AM (#3905157)
1. BB-Ref has him at 1.0 wins for his career... and 1.2 wins this year. I'm going mostly with eyes on this one, I admit.

2. Ugh. They have to be able to do better than A-Gon with someone else's castoff or some non-premium FA.

3. Mostly for the sake of others reading this, I hope we don't go too deeply into this debate again. But, this is the most common defense of the trade; the problem with it is, neither of us will probably ever know how true it actually is. I really hope Chipper will speak out about the Yunel situation someday, but barring that, you can say this, I can say the opposite, and neither of us can really prove the contention. Yunel hasn't made waves in Toronto and is having a big year, that doesn't necessarily mean it would have worked out in Atlanta. It also doesn't mean that the Braves didn't gave up too soon on a talented player, especially with a managerial change looming in a matter of months. It remains maddening to me because we can't really dig much deeper than that.

4. Yep, and I'm not worried about Heyward yet. He's not going to get better on the bench though, that's starting to get troubling.

5. Totally is.
   15. zachtoma Posted: August 21, 2011 at 03:04 AM (#3905158)
:)


Your guys may be better now, but they ain't young. Plus the Braves' bullpen is stacked with young shutdown guys as well. Without meaning to sell Vance Worley or Antonio Bastardo short, the Phillies great staff essentially runs 4-deep, and it's the most crucial four, but still, the Braves have more exciting pitchers who are ready now than they have room for on the 25-man roster.

#13, that's my feeling as well. But it raises the question, if it was primarily Cox who wanted Escobar out, why couldn't they have held on a few months more until he retired?
   16. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: August 21, 2011 at 03:30 AM (#3905164)
@15 - Because what Bobby Cox thinks is what the Atlanta Braves thinks. Cox retired from the field manager position. I'm pretty sure he, and John Schuerholz, sit on the Board of the Atlanta Braves. I don't want to rehash this too much, because we've gone over this in plenty of other forums, damned near ad nauseam. But Yunel Escobar *quit trying* in Atlanta. He stopped playing hard. The Braves have shown immense patience with talented head cases in the past. As long as they gave the team everything they had. Escobar stopped giving the team effort. He flaked. He will eventually flake in Toronto.

Anyway, to your point, if Cox gave up on a player, the franchise gave up on the player.
   17. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: August 21, 2011 at 03:30 AM (#3905165)
Your guys may be better now, but they ain't young. Plus the Braves' bullpen is stacked with young shutdown guys as well. Without meaning to sell Vance Worley or Antonio Bastardo short, the Phillies great staff essentially runs 4-deep, and it's the most crucial four, but still, the Braves have more exciting pitchers who are ready now than they have room for on the 25-man roster.
all that means is that their talent is being wasted.

the phillies may not have 9 young starters who are each capable of putting up a 3.75 ERA, but we do have 3 world class starters who are each capable of being the best pitcher in the world anytime they take the mound. i'll take my chances with that.
   18. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: August 21, 2011 at 03:33 AM (#3905168)
@15 - The Phils starters only fun four deep - Worley only keeps them four deep for when Oswalt explodes. But notably, the top three of Halladay, Hamels and Lee tend to go deep enough to make up for the fact that they don't have O'Ventbrel hanging around the pen.
   19. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: August 21, 2011 at 03:34 AM (#3905170)
the phillies may not have 9 young starters who are each capable of putting up a 3.75 ERA, but we do have 3 world class starters who are each capable of being the best pitcher in the world anytime they take the mound. i'll take my chances with that.


As you should. And we'll take the role of the '97 Marlins as payback this year. Should be fun in the NLCS this year.
   20. Brian White Posted: August 21, 2011 at 03:42 AM (#3905173)
My assumption was that Chipper would retire, Prado would move to third and the Braves could finally find a masher in left. That seems to be out of the question now.


I think that even with Chipper around for another year, that Prado is still best used as a super-sub - between Chipper's inevitable DL stints and frequent days off, other miscellaneous injuries, and other days off for pretty much everyone but McCann and Bourn, there's probably <450 ABs to be had in that role. It depends on who would be brought in to play LF, of course.

I assumed the Braves would be ready to make a move in the offseason, to unload one of their ten starters in exchange for an upgrade somewhere, but if they're only looking at SS, I don't know who would be available to acquire.
   21. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: August 21, 2011 at 03:46 AM (#3905174)
The Braves would be happy to unload Derek Lowe's contract for a few mid-tier prospects, give Minor the open slot and let Teheran, Vizzy and Delgado mature at AAA a little more.
   22. Honkie Kong Posted: August 21, 2011 at 03:49 AM (#3905178)
if they're only looking at SS, I don't know who would be available to acquire.

Yunel? :)

A more interesting target would be Alexei Ramirez, if the White Sox decide to spend some time rebuilding.
   23. Honkie Kong Posted: August 21, 2011 at 03:51 AM (#3905181)
The Braves would be happy to unload Derek Lowe's contract for a few mid-tier prospects

I think they will be happy just to be rid of it, but they won't be able to, unless they run into a drunk Tony Reagins at the Winter Meetings
   24. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: August 21, 2011 at 03:54 AM (#3905183)
As you should. And we'll take the role of the '97 Marlins as payback this year. Should be fun in the NLCS this year.

i'm looking forward to it.
@15 - The Phils starters only fun four deep - Worley only keeps them four deep for when Oswalt explodes. But notably, the top three of Halladay, Hamels and Lee tend to go deep enough to make up for the fact that they don't have O'Ventbrel hanging around the pen.
well, yeah, they're only 4 deep. except oswalt just threw 8 shutout innings tonight. and kyle kendrick has a 3.24 ERA. and joe blanton's hanging around somewhere. and they've only got the minor league's strikeout leader in trevor may. and they just signed dave bush. and there's austin hyatt and tyler cloyd in AA. and in addition to may, they've also got julio rodriguez, jon pettibone, and brody colvin in A+.


we may not have 10 guys who are major league ready, but there's more than enough depth to keep this run going for the length of halladay's contract.
   25. Brian White Posted: August 21, 2011 at 03:59 AM (#3905186)
The Braves would be happy to unload Derek Lowe's contract for a few mid-tier prospects,


Yeah, that ain't happening. I suspect the Braves trade him, plus a cash amount just short of eight figures, for some A-ball filler.
   26. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: August 21, 2011 at 04:05 AM (#3905187)
well, yeah, they're only 4 deep. except oswalt just threw 8 shutout innings tonight. and kyle kendrick has a 3.24 ERA. and joe blanton's hanging around somewhere. and they've only got the minor league's strikeout leader in trevor may. and they just signed dave bush. and there's austin hyatt and tyler cloyd in AA. and in addition to may, they've also got julio rodriguez, jon pettibone, and brody colvin in A+.


Kyle Kendrick will go Horacio Ramirez soon enough. Oswalt is 7000 years old. Well, at least his back is. He won't be contributing in two years. I expect in three years the Phils rotation will be Halladay, Hamels and maybe Worley, Cliff Lee plugging along at league average, and someone randomly inserted into the fifth spot. Which will be fine, more or less, because the one advantage the Phils have over the Braves is cold hard cash.
   27. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: August 21, 2011 at 04:47 AM (#3905201)
I think you're underrating Lee, Sam. He's not that old and it's not unusual for pitchers to peak in their 30s.

Which means the bigger problem for Philly is their offense, it's aging and has that insane Howard contract.

Also, you'll all be sorry when Einhorn owns the Mets in full! /laughs maniacally yet tragically and flees down a darkened hallway, cape fluttering behind.
   28. Dr. Vaux Posted: August 21, 2011 at 05:06 AM (#3905212)
I'm worried about Tommy Hanson.
   29. Colin Posted: August 21, 2011 at 02:08 PM (#3905278)
Both Hanson and Jurrjens are potential problems for the Braves; the team needs to find some way to get them both healthy and effective again before the playoffs.
   30. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: August 21, 2011 at 02:08 PM (#3905279)

Kyle Kendrick will go Horacio Ramirez soon enough.
yeah, he's not great, but he's a pretty useful guy to have around.
Oswalt is 7000 years old.
he was also throwing 94 MPH last night, looking as good as can reasonably be expected.

and he's the 5th starter right now.
   31. spike Posted: August 21, 2011 at 02:27 PM (#3905292)
we'll take the role of the '97 Marlins

The current Bourn/Powered By Satan Costanza version of the Braves is far better than the 97 Marlins. Should they win a round or two, or even take the WS, it won't be nearly as shocking, and they probably won't require "divine assistance" to get past an opponent.
   32. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: August 21, 2011 at 04:15 PM (#3905321)
I think you're underrating Lee, Sam. He's not that old and it's not unusual for pitchers to peak in their 30s.


I hold to my faith that the moral arc of the universe bends toward justice, even if I have to bend that sumbitch myself. Cliff Lee is way overrated and will go Derek Lowe before that contract is out.

I'm worried about Tommy Hanson.


Until such time as Tommy Hanson starts dominating hitters again, and more to the point until such time as Tommy Hanson ceases to get pounded and then miss starts with mysterious shoulder maladies, I will refer to him as The New Mark Prior.

The current Bourn/Powered By Satan Costanza version of the Braves is far better than the 97 Marlins. Should they win a round or two, or even take the WS, it won't be nearly as shocking, and they probably won't require "divine assistance" to get past an opponent.


I was going more with the "lose the division by nine games and then sucker punch the winners in the playoffs" really.
   33. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: August 21, 2011 at 04:28 PM (#3905327)
How the hell is Cliff Lee way overrated?
   34. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: August 21, 2011 at 04:34 PM (#3905331)
How the hell is Cliff Lee way overrated?


People think he's HOF good. He's not. Thus, overrated.
   35. rb's team is hopeful for the new year! Posted: August 21, 2011 at 06:26 PM (#3905414)
Don't forget kris medlen.
   36. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: August 21, 2011 at 11:17 PM (#3905563)
People think he's HOF good. He's not. Thus, overrated.
his peak really is that good; it's the longevity where he falls short. the last 4 years, he's got a 2.95 ERA with 5.5 Ks for every BB, and 22 CGs, including 10 shutouts, averaging over 7 IP per start. he's a really, really, good pitcher. especially when he's not getting dinked and dunked to death,
   37. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: August 22, 2011 at 12:03 AM (#3905581)
The current Bourn/Powered By Satan Costanza version of the Braves is far better than the 97 Marlins. Should they win a round or two, or even take the WS, it won't be nearly as shocking, and they probably won't require "divine assistance" to get past an opponent.


I'll fight you.

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