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Friday, November 13, 2009

Chop-n-Change: Interview with J.C. Bradbury, Economist and Sabernomics Blogger

The Monsters Are Due on Tuckman’s Stage!

5. What are some of the biggest misconceptions in the internet stat community? If you could do away with one trendy cliche or assumption, what would it be?

  Well, I think the community’s main problem is hubris combined with a groupthink attitude. Ken Rosenthal discussed this in a recent column and the sabermetric community chose to chastise rather than heed his point. This is compounded by the fact that those conducting and consuming the analysis aren’t adequately familiar with the employed analytical methods and so bad analysis sometimes becomes part of the group belief. For example, the other day I pointed out an excellent study by economists Jahn Hakes and Skip Sauer that examined baseball’s labor market at Baseball Think Factory . A commenter responded “Tangotiger hates the Hakes & Sauer paper”; I guess I was supposed to defer to him. Anyway, I followed the link and the analysis conducted by the pseudonymous sabermetric icon doesn’t refute the findings at all. He’s plugging in extreme values into a model to make absurd predictions outside the sample for a model that the authors are acknowledging is out-of-whack with what should be. For some reason, this damns the model. I have seen Jahn and Skip present their work several times in front of many economists who are well-versed in the techniques used. It’s been vetted by skilled referees and editors and published in respected academic journals. I’ve read their work closely and talked to them about it. Yet, what bothers me is not that someone reaches an erroneous conclusion, but that the commenters wholehearted embrace the flawed critique, which it is later parroted across the Internet. No attempt is made to contact the authors, or submit a response to the journal that published the article—a common practice when flaws are discovered after publication. That’s not what this is about, it’s some sort of status game—chest thumping at a safe distance. Sabermetrics (with a big S) has become a club focused on rhetoric, not a serious research program.

Repoz Posted: November 13, 2009 at 06:25 PM | 119 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: sabermetrics, site news

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   1. AROM Posted: November 13, 2009 at 06:46 PM (#3387093)
Can't stand these amateurs plugging in extreme values into models. Reminds me of the idiot who wanted to evaluate pricing models of mortgage derivatives if house values decline. Moron. Every good economist knows house values never decline!
   2. Shooty: Applying to be Fearless Leader Posted: November 13, 2009 at 06:48 PM (#3387095)
1. A single poster does not speak for the BBTF community. We never agree on anything! (Except that Steve Garvey is evil).
2. This isn't an academic symposium. It's a baseball geek message board. WTF do these guys want me to do? Spend a month on a post and have it peer reviewed? That's going to make for a very lonely internet. Which, of course, may be a good thing, though it's not going to help me get through my work day.
   3. AROM Posted: November 13, 2009 at 06:49 PM (#3387096)
Something is seriously wrong with the link above.
   4. Kyle S at work Posted: November 13, 2009 at 06:50 PM (#3387099)
These are serious claims. I disagree with JC's contention that the appropriate response to a non-economist discovering "flaws" in a journal published paper is for that person to submit a response to the journal. I know that Tom and others have indeed contacted authors of "flawed" (in their eyes) papers, the authors have at times either not responded at all, not responded to the substance of the allegations, or acted in a dismissive fashion.

I also very much disagree with JC's statement that Sabermetrics (with a big S) has become a club focused on rhetoric, not a serious research program. It is notable that the vast majority of "Sabermetric innovations" - such as DIPS theory, statistical evaluation of defense, linear weights, etc - were not first published in peer reviewed journals but rather were invented in someone's garage or basement. To this day, that trend of innovation continues (such as with the analysis of PitchFX pitch-level data, to give an example). Of course, JC would not consider much of this as a "serious research program" because it does not stand up to the statistical and theoretical rigor it would need to for inclusion in a peer reviewed journal.
   5. Dewey, Steven Wright Wannabe and Soupuss Posted: November 13, 2009 at 06:53 PM (#3387104)
I have seen Jahn and Skip present their work several times in front of many economists who are well-versed in the techniques used. It’s been vetted by skilled referees and editors and published in respected academic journals.

I'm not sure why we're supposed to defer to economists when looking at baseball transactions. When did they become authorities on the subject?
   6. Best Regards, Larry M. Posted: November 13, 2009 at 06:56 PM (#3387107)
I'll listen to the guy who appeals to data over the guy who appeals to authority 10 times out of 10.
   7. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: November 13, 2009 at 06:57 PM (#3387108)
the community’s main problem is hubris combined with a groupthink attitude.

boochit--we do NOT have a groupthink attitude

(and everyone here would agree with me)
   8. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: November 13, 2009 at 07:00 PM (#3387114)
   9. The importance of being Ernest Riles Posted: November 13, 2009 at 07:12 PM (#3387128)
Bradbury is really digging his heels in here. His analysis, and now his attitude, have become wholly unreasonable (and non-academic, to boot).
   10. Shooty: Applying to be Fearless Leader Posted: November 13, 2009 at 07:14 PM (#3387131)
I didn't even read his damn paper. I don't even know who he is!
   11. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 13, 2009 at 07:15 PM (#3387133)
I think anyone who uses "hubris" and "groupthink" in the same sentence should have their fingernails pulled off.
   12. Sam Hutcheson is the Rickey Henderson of... Posted: November 13, 2009 at 07:16 PM (#3387137)
So far the comments of this thread support Bradbury's assertions.
   13. Shooty: Applying to be Fearless Leader Posted: November 13, 2009 at 07:19 PM (#3387144)
So far the comments of this thread support Bradbury's assertions.

Go stab a neck!
   14. The District Attorney Posted: November 13, 2009 at 07:20 PM (#3387147)
So, on one side, we've got someone arrogant enough to do a "I'm right because I'm a SERIOUS ACADEMIC! JOURNALS!!" routine. On the other side, we've got someone arrogant enough to be MGL. This is a tough one.
   15. CFiJ Posted: November 13, 2009 at 07:20 PM (#3387148)
2. This isn't an academic symposium. It's a baseball geek message board.
This. Snark is the coin of the realm here. Everyone gets snarked. Tango, MGL, Neyer, James, everyone. Further, BTF is a geek message board with a sabermetric bent, not any kind of sabermetric community. The guys actually doing real honest-to-god sabermetric research are vastly outnumbered by kibitzers who just enjoy talkin' about baseball, be it history, gossip, or stats.

One finds a sharp reduction of snark on The Book Blog, for example.
   16. Repoz Posted: November 13, 2009 at 07:22 PM (#3387150)
Link fixed...
   17. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: November 13, 2009 at 07:22 PM (#3387151)
A commenter responded "Tangotiger hates the Hakes & Sauer paper"; I guess I was supposed to defer to him.

In looking at the original thread, the poster did include a substantive comment so it wasn't merely an appeal to authority.

Anyway, I followed the link and the analysis conducted by the pseudonymous sabermetric icon doesn’t refute the findings at all. He’s plugging in extreme values into a model to make absurd predictions outside the sample for a model that the authors are acknowledging is out-of-whack with what should be. For some reason, this damns the model.

Has tangotiger formulated a response?

Yet, what bothers me is not that someone reaches an erroneous conclusion, but that the commenters wholehearted embrace the flawed critique, which it is later parroted across the Internet.

There were 3 comments after "Tangotiger hates the Hakes & Sauer paper" post, none of them were about the Hakes and Sauer paper. I can't tell if it was parroted across the Internet though.
   18. Steve Treder Posted: November 13, 2009 at 07:28 PM (#3387161)
To be shocked, shocked, that an internet message board doesn't behave with the same decorum as an ivy-covered-wall seminar is, well, amsuing.

EDIT: Ah cain too spale!
   19. Randy Jones Posted: November 13, 2009 at 07:29 PM (#3387164)
So far the comments of this thread support Bradbury's assertions.


Well, Bradbury could have tried to respond to the criticisms of the paper made in the original thread, if he supports it so strongly, since many of them seem to be valid and were not presented in a snarky manner. Instead he basically decided to resort to name calling. Wtf do you expect the responses in this thread to be?
   20. CFiJ Posted: November 13, 2009 at 07:30 PM (#3387168)
amsuing.
Not that I don't appreciate the sentiment, but I don't think you have much of a case.

Look! I just snarked on Steve Treder!
   21. fra paolo Posted: November 13, 2009 at 07:34 PM (#3387179)
Actually, it's a typical academic argument.

Prof A - Here is my model. See it works!
Post-Doc B - Your model sucks! Mine is better!
Prof C - Prof A's model does a good job because it defines its parameters carefully, and demonstrably works within them.
Non-academic media commentator/graduate student - Prof C is a wanker! Post-Doc B ROOLS!
Prof C - Why should I defer to Post-Doc B? He hasn't got tenure. Those who support him are rude and ignorant. I'll be in my office.
   22. Mike Emeigh Posted: November 13, 2009 at 07:40 PM (#3387193)
I also very much disagree with JC's statement that Sabermetrics (with a big S) has become a club focused on rhetoric, not a serious research program. It is notable that the vast majority of "Sabermetric innovations" - such as DIPS theory, statistical evaluation of defense, linear weights, etc - were not first published in peer reviewed journals but rather were invented in someone's garage or basement.


True. And by and large, the authors of those methods welcome constructive criticism and "peer review" of their methods.

The broader issue isn't with the people who are actually doing sabermetric research, but with the larger community that buys into the research uncritically, and elevates the researchers to something akin to oracles. Tango's not always right (and he'd be the first one to tell you that), and just because he says something critical about Hakes and Sauer doesn't mean that his criticism is valid.

-- MWE
   23. Dewey, Steven Wright Wannabe and Soupuss Posted: November 13, 2009 at 07:46 PM (#3387200)
just because he says something critical about Hakes and Sauer doesn't mean that his criticism is valid.

True; but I think this is something of a strawman. Tango and mgl and the like get plenty of criticism around here, and there are very few appeals to authority.

If anyone's appealing to authority, it's Bradbury, with his talk of "peer-review" and "published in respected journals".
   24. Steve Treder Posted: November 13, 2009 at 07:46 PM (#3387201)
The broader issue isn't with the people who are actually doing sabermetric research, but with the larger community that buys into the research uncritically, and elevates the researchers to something akin to oracles.

Certainly. But how different is this dynamic from that of, well, just about any other community? "Authorities" in academia, business economics, stock-picking, you name it, are too often followed uncritically.
   25. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: November 13, 2009 at 07:48 PM (#3387202)
"WTF do these guys want me to do? Spend a month on a post and have it peer reviewed?"

Penis penis penis!

Vagina?
   26. Shooty: Applying to be Fearless Leader Posted: November 13, 2009 at 07:49 PM (#3387204)
"WTF do these guys want me to do? Spend a month on a post and have it peer reviewed?"

Penis penis penis!


Is that good or bad?
   27. Tango Posted: November 13, 2009 at 07:51 PM (#3387210)
I responded on my blog (not worth linking to), and I'll just repeat the part that is necessary:

I just want to correct him, as he misses the point about the out-of-whack numbers, when in the same thread in the comments I said:
No, the point is how far I have to go to find an equivalent to a .340/.400 player with 400 PA, if I give the other guy 600 PA. Basically, I can’t even find a guy so bad that he would be valued worse than the .340/.400 400 PA guy. It’s not that it breaks down at the extremes, but it simply breaks down period.

   28. ekogan Posted: November 13, 2009 at 07:52 PM (#3387211)
I'm the poster that JC is complaining about.
Here's a link to the BTF comment thread which offended JC
Here's a link to Tangotiger's post on his blog arguing against Hakes & Sauer, many good points are made not only in the post, but in the comments as well.

First a disclaimer, I'm neither a statistician nor an economist, so my understanding of the issues may be faulty.

I have two objections to Hakes & Sauer. One, they, like all other academics writing about baseball, ignore all research done by amateur sabermetricians. Two, they throw both rate stats and counting stats like PA, and correlated stats like OBP and SLG into the same regression. Maybe JC is happy that H&S;try to reinvent the wheel with sloppy work like that and would call it "avoiding groupthink", but I think it just makes H&S;'s conclusions worthless.

JC claimed that my objections to H&S;were simple appeals to authority of Tangotiger. In this case, I (as far as I can tell) actually understood Tangotiger's objections and agreed with them. If I did though had to appeal to authority, JC Bradbury would not one I would trust to be correct if I didn't understand his reasoning.

I've been trying to figure out why JC was offended by a blogpost comment. After all, he's been writing on the Web for a long time, and so can't be a thin-skinned person. I think it is because he is an economist and thus is infected with the arrogance of the economics profession. In recent years, economists started believing that they could take their statistical toolbox and apply it to analyze any kind of data without first learning about the subject domain. They believe that they can thus reach valid conclusions, even overriding the opinion of domain experts, but since they didn't bother to learn about the subject first, they often just make fools of themselves. But, god forbid, someone point that out, they are just perpetuating hidebound groupthink. Regression says so!

Here are some examples of economists blundering about with sloppy statistical analysis on non-economic topics:
Kovash/Levitt wrote a paper saying that pitchers throw too many fastballs, but basically consider balls or called or swinging strikes to be of no account.
In Freakonomics, Levitt claims that drunk driving is better than drunk walking. Here's why he's wrong
And speaking of Freakonomics, let's not forget their misleading and sloppy global warming chapter.

Sorry JC, being an economist doesn't mean that you get to ignore research of other people.
   29. greenback Posted: November 13, 2009 at 07:53 PM (#3387213)
ln(Salary) = 3.1*SLG - 0.13*OBP + .003*PA + 1.1*ArbEligible + 1.68*FreeAgent + .07*IsCatcherOrInfielder + 10.3

That looks like the output of some thoughtless number-crunching, right down to the multiplicative constant at the end. I hope the paper made more effort to control for the correlation between SLG and OBP than this formula suggests.
   30. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: November 13, 2009 at 07:53 PM (#3387215)
The broader issue isn't with the people who are actually doing sabermetric research, but with the larger community that buys into the research uncritically, and elevates the researchers to something akin to oracles.

I don't know if the larger community buys into the research uncritically and elevates certain researchers accordingly, but to a certain degree, we all rely on authority figures for knowledge simply because not all of us have the necessary knowledge base to evaluate the research ourselves whether it's in the medical, economic, and sabermetrics field. So if an established medical authority says that treatment X will have a X% of fixing ailment X, then I'm willing to defer to their opinion or at least seek a second opinion. So I'm not going to automatically think Tango's criticism is automatically valid but I'm more willing to trust his opinion given an established track record.
   31. The District Attorney Posted: November 13, 2009 at 07:53 PM (#3387217)
Penis penis penis!

Vagina?
Cites, please.
   32. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: November 13, 2009 at 07:54 PM (#3387218)
"Is that good or bad?"

I dunno. Show of hands?
   33. Shooty: Applying to be Fearless Leader Posted: November 13, 2009 at 08:07 PM (#3387231)
Penis penis penis!

Vagina?

Cites, please.


Jeez, I read "cites" as something else, initially.
   34. zenbitz Posted: November 13, 2009 at 08:09 PM (#3387233)
In recent years, economists started believing that they could take their statistical toolbox and apply it to analyze any kind of data without first learning about the subject domain.


So basically, they are physicists who are bad at math?
   35. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: November 13, 2009 at 08:12 PM (#3387238)
"Jeez, I read "cites" as something else, initially."

CLINTS?
   36. scotto Posted: November 13, 2009 at 08:13 PM (#3387239)
Certainly. But how different is this dynamic from that of, well, just about any other community? "Authorities" in academia, business economics, stock-picking, you name it, are too often followed uncritically.

That's true, but his comments and the comments here bring up an issue that is noteworthy. I'm not a PhD in statistics but I know my way around it a bit. I see a lot of posters here tossing around statistical concepts in a way that makes me think that they don't remember their Stats 101 course. For example, "small sample size" is frequently presented as some sort of QED that an observation with a small n is invalid. Data with a small n may still yield results that are statistically significant, it's just harder to demonstrate when hypothesis testing.

This happens all over the place and I do it too. But it is troubling when arguments are summarily dismissed without examination and often with a certain smug superiority by people who seem to misunderstand what they're talking about.
   37. Designated Sitter (GGC) Posted: November 13, 2009 at 08:13 PM (#3387241)
boochit--we do NOT have a groupthink attitude

(and everyone here would agree with me)


Try suggesting an AL MVP candidate other than Mauer sometime.
   38. ekogan Posted: November 13, 2009 at 08:14 PM (#3387244)
So basically, they are physicists who are bad at math?

Yes, physics PH.D's did so well on Wall Street.
   39. Kiko Sakata Posted: November 13, 2009 at 08:15 PM (#3387245)
I think it is because he is an economist and thus is infected with the arrogance of the economics profession.


As a professional economist, I feel like I should be offended by this. But I just can't be. It's accurate.

Sorry JC, being an economist doesn't mean that you get to ignore research of other people.


But that's my favorite part of my job! (I kid, I kid)

Seriously, I'm a big fan of the Levitt/Becker school that views economics as being a way of studying anything under the sun (my Master's degree is from the University of Chicago). But I do think that this is a perfectly valid criticism of us - economics is a wonderful TOOL for evaluating lots of things - baseball, crime, etc. - but it's very, very important for economists to defer to the experts in those areas (and, as weird as it may sound to an academician, Tangotiger is pretty clearly an expert in baseball analysis) so that they're sure that they're using that tool correctly.
   40. Steve Treder Posted: November 13, 2009 at 08:16 PM (#3387247)
it is troubling when arguments are summarily dismissed without examination and often with a certain smug superiority by people who seem to misunderstand what they're talking about.

Sure, but what I'm getting at is this: in what way is this behavior particular to the sabermetric community? Is what's being described here anything other than one of the less attractive elements of human nature?
   41. ekogan Posted: November 13, 2009 at 08:17 PM (#3387248)
Try suggesting an AL MVP candidate other than Mauer sometime.

A bunch of people pointed out that Greinke was more valuable than Mauer. There were some articles in support of Zobrist as well
   42. Kiko Sakata Posted: November 13, 2009 at 08:19 PM (#3387249)
There were some articles in support of Zobrist as well


I think GGC is referring to the thread here that arose from one of these.
   43. Randy Jones Posted: November 13, 2009 at 08:20 PM (#3387250)
I think GGC is referring to the thread here that arose from one of these.


I think GGC missed the joke in the post he quoted. Also, I believe Crashburn, who wrote the article supporting Zobrist, changed his stance after some discussion in that thread. Seems to be a poor example of groupthink.
   44. Best Regards, Larry M. Posted: November 13, 2009 at 08:22 PM (#3387253)
I'm the poster that JC is complaining about.
Here's a link to the BTF comment thread which offended JC
I don't see anything there that JC should be offended by.

Or apparently it's offensive to him for someone to present a dissenting viewpoint.
   45. scotto Posted: November 13, 2009 at 08:29 PM (#3387259)
Sure, but what I'm getting at is this: in what way is this behavior particular to the sabermetric community? Is what's being described here anything other than one of the less attractive elements of human nature?

I guess it's more of an issue in the sabermetric community because:

1. It's a community that values the use of data and analytic tools to discern categorical differences and distinctions.

2. It's a community that communicates most often via the Internet, where nuance is often lost and is certainly often unappreciated. Indeed, it's a medium where volume and bluster are often mistaken for authority.

I started making other points, but it came down to my mother's comments to me about jumping off of bridges if everyone else was doing it. Why?

Non-saber analysis is hooted at if it is patently full of ####; so should saber analysis. But it'd be nice if the hooters were clad in something other than the emperor's new clothes.
   46. scotto Posted: November 13, 2009 at 08:32 PM (#3387261)
In other words, to win the right to write with derision, know what the heck you're talking about and try not to dress it up with misused jargon. This applies to everyone, everywhere.

Too many clothing metaphors, Smitty'd be apoplectic.
   47. Designated Sitter (GGC) Posted: November 13, 2009 at 08:35 PM (#3387267)
I was joking up above, but there is uncertainty in these various estimates, even when it comes to estimating batting runs. Colin Wyers had a two parter at THT about this.
   48. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 13, 2009 at 08:36 PM (#3387269)
Try suggesting an AL MVP candidate other than Mauer sometime.


...or that the sky isn't blue, too. ;-)
   49. Gaelan Posted: November 13, 2009 at 08:45 PM (#3387289)
I, like, Bradbury am a professional academic. It is my professional opinion that he is an embarassment to his profession. If he is indicative of Economists then that is an indictment of economics. He is incapable of thought and reason. With every word he utters he breads ignorance and confusion. He's like a disease that corrodes intelligence and turns his listeners into stupified mass of drool.

He's become a parody. That post above describes him exactly. "This is compounded by the fact that those conducting and consuming the analysis aren’t adequately familiar with the employed analytical methods and so bad analysis sometimes becomes part of the group belief." This describes him exactly.

He's not a human being he's a broken robot that just keeps repeating the same tired old formulas, "econometrics is life, econometrics, is life, econometrics is life." It's time for him to be decommissioned and rehabilitated as something useful.
   50. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: November 13, 2009 at 08:46 PM (#3387291)
As soon as I get academic funding to pursue my Sabermetrics PhD, I'll be happy to contact authors and do peer review.

Until then, I'm just a monkey on a web site.
   51. Designated Sitter (GGC) Posted: November 13, 2009 at 08:48 PM (#3387293)
It;s overcast here today, John. ;-)
   52. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 13, 2009 at 08:50 PM (#3387296)
It;s overcast here today, John. ;-)


LOL
   53. AROM Posted: November 13, 2009 at 08:50 PM (#3387297)
For some reason, this damns the model. I have seen Jahn and Skip present their work several times in front of many economists who are well-versed in the techniques used. It’s been vetted by skilled referees and editors and published in respected academic journals.


This is a frightening quote. I looked at Tango's thread that ekogan linked to, and man, is that a terrible regression equation. Throwing a hodgepodge of rate and counting stuff together, and no consideration of co-variance. Sure, a statistical package will give you coefficients for all that. But it seems such a lazy way to build a model. I would hope that people could do better than that. If this is par for the course for analysis in academic journals, then there is quite a bit of room for improvement in the analysis of every field.
   54. Blackadder Posted: November 13, 2009 at 08:51 PM (#3387298)
Gaelan's #49 is silly, completely over the top, and amazing.
   55. Shooty: Applying to be Fearless Leader Posted: November 13, 2009 at 08:53 PM (#3387302)
Gaelan's #49 is silly, completely over the top, and amazing.

Yeah, once in a while it's good to let Gaelan off the leash. I call it, Bringing Out the Gimp.






(I kid, G. I kid!)
   56. Ron Johnson Posted: November 13, 2009 at 08:57 PM (#3387304)
I'm a big fan of the Levitt/Becker school that views economics as being a way of studying anything under the sun


Bill James has said his work is heavily influenced by the Chicago school of economics. I see a lot of similarity in the general approach between Levitt and James.
   57. Gaelan Posted: November 13, 2009 at 08:57 PM (#3387307)
Gaelan's #49 is silly, completely over the top, and amazing.


That wasn't a rant. It's what I believe. Bradbury has never, in the history of BTF, written something worth reading. If he were merely incompetent it would be a step up. But he isn't in the universe of incompetence since he cannot even understand the terms by which competence is measured.
   58. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 13, 2009 at 08:59 PM (#3387308)
But it seems such a lazy way to build a model. I would hope that people could do better than that.

I could do better than that, in Excel. And I haven't done any serious regression work in 15 years.
   59. Kiko Sakata Posted: November 13, 2009 at 08:59 PM (#3387309)
This is a frightening quote. I looked at Tango's thread that ekogan linked to, and man, is that a terrible regression equation. Throwing a hodgepodge of rate and counting stuff together, and no consideration of co-variance. Sure, a statistical package will give you coefficients for all that. But it seems such a lazy way to build a model.


Yep, this goes back to exactly what I was saying up in #39. I do econometrics for a living; it's a wonderful tool. But GIGO. What's wonderful about econometrics and economics is that it provides a way to quantify things, but an expert in econometric techniques isn't the person that you need to run that model by. You need to run that model by an expert in baseball analysis, to make sure you're including the right variables and measuring them correctly.

Just off the top of my head, the two obvious problems that I see with the formula in #29 are that pre-arb and free-agent players should be modeled with completely separate equations - they're not in the same market - and you need to remove batting average from either SLG or OBP (or I would probably remove it from both and include it as a separate variable). But unless you happen to talk to an econometrician who's also a sabermetrician / serious baseball fan, there's no reason to expect an economist to come up with either of those suggestions.
   60. Gaelan Posted: November 13, 2009 at 08:59 PM (#3387310)
Bill James has said his work is heavily influenced by the Chicago school of economics. I see a lot of similarity in the general approach between Levitt and James.


Bill James has the soul of a philosopher. It permeates all his best work and has nothing to do with the methods he uses. He is the opposite of Bradbury who is all method no thought.
   61. flournoy Posted: November 13, 2009 at 09:00 PM (#3387311)
he breads ignorance and confusion


Sounds delicious.
   62. ?Donde esta Dagoberto Campaneris? Posted: November 13, 2009 at 09:03 PM (#3387316)
Is this JC the "JC in DC" who posts here occasionally or are they different people?
   63. flournoy Posted: November 13, 2009 at 09:05 PM (#3387317)
No, Bradbury is JCB, who posts here occasionally.

EDIT: Or maybe he's JCBradbury, actually. You'll know him when you see him. Whatever the case, he lives in metro Atlanta, so he wouldn't be in DC.
   64. gef the talking mongoose Posted: November 13, 2009 at 09:05 PM (#3387318)
Gaelan's #49 is silly, completely over the top, and amazing.


That's almost enough for me to unblock him. Not quite, though. I assume he's just frothing at the keyboard & making sweeping pronouncements in the name of philosophers who've been dead & irrelevant for 300 years, as per usual. *yawn*
   65. Kiko Sakata Posted: November 13, 2009 at 09:05 PM (#3387319)
Is this JC the "JC in DC" who posts here occasionally or are they different people?


No, they're different people, although I think Bradbury does post here on occasion (maybe not after this thread).
   66. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: November 13, 2009 at 09:06 PM (#3387321)
I think GGC missed the joke in the post he quoted.

he did indeed
   67. Gaelan Posted: November 13, 2009 at 09:10 PM (#3387328)
No, they're different people, although I think Bradbury does post here on occasion (maybe not after this thread).


I can't think of two people more different than Bradbury and JC in DC.
   68. burnsides Posted: November 13, 2009 at 09:13 PM (#3387333)
I'm a think factory lurker all the way from back in the Admiral Akbar days. I'm also an Econ Prof, and presented at this years SABR meetings a work on minor league baseball attendence that is under review at economics journals. So there is at least one person reading both literatures.

I put this out there to say I'm sympathetic to both sides.

I have not read the paper mentioned in a while, but did read Tango's analysis. I agree with Tango that OBP and SLG are very correlated, and multicollinearity could cause a problem.

I'm not sure about the critique of the extreme values. First, regressions are not designed to extropolate for extreme values that do not occur with regularity. If there is only one outfielder with .250/.250 OBP/SLG then the model is not going to predict that as well. The goal of regression to provide a model that on average that the prediction has the lowest variance.

For fun let's see we can find one of these players. I don't have b-r PI, so someone if they want can look up players similar to Tango's extremes. I did try to find one outfielder that met Tango's descriptions. I looked up this year's hacking mass results, found that Willy Taveras hit .275/.285 with 437 PA and made 2.25 million. The model predicted Anderson would make 1.3 million. Garret Anderson looks pretty similar. So the model isn't over predicting.

I appreciate the SABR community's analysis. If anyone sees any of my papers and has a critique I will try my best to respond.

So consider this an olive branch from an economist who lives in an ivory tower in his mom's basement.
   69. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: November 13, 2009 at 09:13 PM (#3387334)
If anyone's appealing to authority, it's Bradbury, with his talk of "peer-review" and "published in respected journals".

Well, I think the appeal to authority that he, and everybody else, is leery of is the "I'm an expert, end of discussion" type. At least peer-review means that the knowledge claims in question have been vetted. That type of appeal to authority should carry weight.
   70. ?Donde esta Dagoberto Campaneris? Posted: November 13, 2009 at 09:15 PM (#3387335)
Whatever the case, he lives in metro Atlanta, so he wouldn't be in DC.

I was thinking that, but assuming anything from one's screen name seemed a bit risky. In any case, thanks to all for the answer.
   71. Dewey, Steven Wright Wannabe and Soupuss Posted: November 13, 2009 at 09:20 PM (#3387340)
At least peer-review means that the knowledge claims in question have been vetted.

Vetted by experts to whom we should defer, he means. And if you think that review committees on scholarly journals aren't affected by who is authoring a paper, you're fooling yourself.

Tango didn't spring fully formed from Bill James's forehead, ready for sabr-types to worship. He has to carefully present and defend his ideas, just like any guy/gal with a bunch of letters after his/her name, and I'd like to think that if he presented bad research, he'd get called on it here.
   72. Designated Sitter (GGC) Posted: November 13, 2009 at 09:24 PM (#3387343)
Bill James has the soul of a philosopher. It permeates all his best work and has nothing to do with the methods he uses. He is the opposite of Bradbury who is all method no thought.


AFAICT, Bill didn't even use regression models for Runs Created.
   73. mr. man Posted: November 13, 2009 at 09:25 PM (#3387347)
This is a frightening quote. I looked at Tango's thread that ekogan linked to, and man, is that a terrible regression equation. Throwing a hodgepodge of rate and counting stuff together, and no consideration of co-variance. Sure, a statistical package will give you coefficients for all that. But it seems such a lazy way to build a model.


A thousand times yes.

For anyone here who has studied labor economics, this style of regression is very common in labor economics. It makes sense to create a logarithmic curve, then use a 'years of experience' variable, add a 'years of education variable' and presto, you have a reasonably accurate model for describing a labor market for, say, economists. Take any number of similar jobs, present them to a bunch of other labor economists, and you'll get a pat on the back and a publication in the journal. Hakes and Sauer, which I wrote my undergrad thesis on, makes this mistake. As far as trying to create a model for baseball salaries in a traditional labor economics style, they do as good a job as they might be expected to. All the while, they're failing to recognize that baseball salaries are really not determined in the same way as salaries for the rest of us.

The problem is that the baseball 'labor market' isn't such at all. It's an auction with a fixed number of lots. There aren't diminishing returns to experience or skill; the marginal price for better players increases as you reach the star players.
   74. Randy Jones Posted: November 13, 2009 at 09:27 PM (#3387349)
and I'd like to think that if he presented bad research, he'd get called on it here.


He gets called out when he presents good research. Everyone gets called out here.
   75. Dewey, Steven Wright Wannabe and Soupuss Posted: November 13, 2009 at 09:30 PM (#3387355)
The problem is that the baseball 'labor market' isn't such at all. It's an auction with a fixed number of lots. There aren't diminishing returns to experience or skill; the marginal price for better players increases as you reach the star players.

Right. Using traditional economic models to predict player salaries like trying to use the real estate market in Tempe, AZ to try and predict what it would cost to buy Buckingham Palace. You might come up with a number that's close, but if so, it would be by accident.
   76. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: November 13, 2009 at 09:33 PM (#3387358)
Vetted by experts to whom we should defer, he means.

Yes, but at least the vetting process is suppose to make a determination of the research's quality as held by scientific standards. That is different from simply stating, "I am the expert" w/o allowing a discussion of the intellectual merits of the research. For example, simply stating "I am the expert" will get you nowhere fast in the peer review process.

And if you think that review committees on scholarly journals aren't affected by who is authoring a paper, you're fooling yourself.

I've served as a deputy editor for a peer reviewed journal. Obviously, in some cases the reviewer knows the author despite it being a double blind process. But there are plenty of instances where both parties don't know the identity of each party.

Edit: Actually, I should say the reviewer can infer the author of the paper despite it being a double-blind process.
   77. Biff isn't really an apt handle anymore Posted: November 13, 2009 at 09:38 PM (#3387363)
That is different from simply stating, "I am the expert" w/o allowing a discussion of the intellectual merits of the research. For example, simply stating "I am the expert" will get you nowhere fast in the peer review process.

My name is Karl. Ich bin expert.
   78. Dewey, Steven Wright Wannabe and Soupuss Posted: November 13, 2009 at 09:39 PM (#3387365)
Yes, but at least the vetting process is suppose to make a determination of the research's quality as held by scientific standards. That is different from simply stating, "I am the expert" w/o allowing a discussion of the intellectual merits of the research.

Of course it's Bradbury that's doing this, not the people he criticises. Rather than defend his ideas on their merits, he's going back to first principles and defending those principles with appeals to expertise (I've based this on sound economic principles, which have been vetted by people with expertise, and all this criticism is coming from people who don't know what they're talking about).

When he says that people here are blindly following certain sabrmetric researchers, he's beating up a straw man. Nobody's doing that.
   79. Tango Posted: November 13, 2009 at 09:42 PM (#3387367)
burn/68: I don't think you got the gist of my post 27. One of the readers at my blog (Primer poster J Cross) summarized it well:

2) I’m not sure I agree with Tango’s conclusion that the equation in that paper is ridiculous.

What the equation suggests is that *any* veteran player who was given 600 PA in a given year is likely to have been paid more that year than a veteran who was given 400 PA and hit .330/.400 (or whatever it was). It’s not really saying that he had more value that year but rather that he was anticipated to have more value (got paid more). That doesn’t seem ridiculous.


I corrected him slightly:
J: I should correct you that the performance data was from the prior year. So, 600 PA in year X-1, of whatever performance level, are being paid more in year X than the .330/.400 guy with 400 PA in year X-1.


Kiko/59 is also correct:
Just off the top of my head, the two obvious problems that I see with the formula in #29 are that pre-arb and free-agent players should be modeled with completely separate equations - they're not in the same market


He's right. What Adam Jones makes in his 3 pre-arb years is not very related to his performance. And certainly not as much as what he'd make in arb or FA. But that regression equation does not model this reality that everyone here knows.

That Sakes/Hauer paper has many such pitfalls in their model. To then use the year-to-year trend in their equation to say that OBP has gone from being completely (not slightly, but completely) ignored in 2001 to properly valued in 2004 seems to be pretty unreasonable to me.
   80. JPWF13 Posted: November 13, 2009 at 09:42 PM (#3387368)
I've been trying to figure out why JC was offended by a blogpost comment. After all, he's been writing on the Web for a long time, and so can't be a thin-skinned person.


His skin has been getting thinner over time...

He has his own blog, and has been known to close the comments section (I just checked, commenting is currently open)

He can get very prickly when people question his models, his results or his methods, he used to engage in discussions/debates with his critics, but lately it seems that.. he... doesn't, he just says they're wrong- and not directly to them either.

No, the point is how far I have to go to find an equivalent to a .340/.400 player with 400 PA, if I give the other guy 600 PA. Basically, I can’t even find a guy so bad that he would be valued worse than the .340/.400 400 PA guy. It’s not that it breaks down at the extremes, but it simply breaks down period.


That's they type of flaw JCB's own models have- they grossly overstate the value of a player who plays everyday as opposed to someone who plays 100, its' because he seems to used -0- as a baseline rather than some replacement level (which he says is a useless concept) granted we could debate all day over what the proper replacement level should be, but any reasonable level is better than saying the guy who drove in 71 runs in 600 ABs is better than the guy who drove in 70 runs in 400 at bats, because he drove in 1 more run and it is speculation that the 400 AB guy would have driven in any more if given the opportunity, and besides if the 400 Ab guy is better why didn't he get 600 at bats...

I am exaggerating a bit...
   81. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: November 13, 2009 at 09:49 PM (#3387375)
Of course it's Bradbury that's doing this, not the people he criticises. Rather than defend his ideas on their merits, he's going back to first principles and defending those principles with appeals to expertise (I've based this on sound economic principles, which have been vetted by people with expertise, and all this criticism is coming from people who don't know what they're talking about).

That's fine. If you notice from my comments above, I'm not particularly sympathetic towards Bradbury in this instance. But I am saying that I give more weight to knowledge claims vetted through a peer review process than other forums whether it's newspapers, blogs, etc. In this particular case with the Hakes and Saucer paper, I'm more likely to trust the peer review process than random reviewers on the Internet (of course, tango is a not a random reviewer on the Internet so I'm certainly willing to lend more gravitas to his opinion).
   82. Steve Treder Posted: November 13, 2009 at 09:50 PM (#3387376)
Several years ago at one of the NINE conferences, a paper was presented by a team of students and their prof from a university economics department. It was an analysis of salaries vs. performance in baseball players, and came to this or that conclusion about which players were over/undervalued, what the "right" salary for a player of given experience/performance should be, and so on.

So far so good; conceptually it made plenty of sense. The problem was that its assessments of performance by players were just ridiculously crude, literally using stats like batting average and pitchers' W-L record. So now matter how valid the economic assumptions/models they used -- and I had no capacity to know -- the fact that they employed the most inexpert of baseball player metrics rendered their work useless. It appeared to be a situation of economists who happened to be casual baseball fans thinking that it would be fun to apply some economic models onto the baseball case: sure, it might have been fun, but unless and until they were willing to subject the baseball side of the project to the same rigor that one hopes they were applying to the economics side, the thing was dead in the water. I've been attending NINE conferences for almost ten years now, and I've rarely witnessed a presentation bomb the way this one did. It was painful.
   83. Walt Davis Posted: November 13, 2009 at 09:52 PM (#3387378)
Tango's post was rather pointless. He's extrapolating the model beyond the data. That's always a bad idea. And it doesn't matter what any model predicts for the salary of a 180/180 OF with 600 PA because such a beastie will never exist. (A proper model would control for the fact that there's a minimum salary but that's probably not such a big deal either.)

But I'll agree those results look fishy. About the lowest possible realistic FA-eligible salary -- a starting SS posting a 330/350 line, say -- is estimated at about $3 M. In 2001, this, roughly speaking, would have been Royce Clayton ($4.5 M), Pat Meares ($3.8 M) or Tony Womack ($4 M and not yet an FA) so it's looking pretty badly off at that end. (For 2B, you've got Mike Lansing at $6.25 and McLemore at $2; at 3B, Brosius at $5.25.)

Meanwhile a 400/600 FA-eligible OF is predicted to make less than $6 M. We're talking Barry Bonds ($10.3), Sheffield ($10), Sosa ($12.5), Alou ($5.25), Giles ($7.3), Burks ($5.7), Edmonds ($6.3). So it fits pretty well for 3 of the 8 but is generally way low.

So it's a model which fits the middle of the data but not either end of the data. Pretty much all models do that. The fact that Mike Lansing made more than what the model would project for Gary Sheffield is a pretty good indicator that the model didn't fit the data well.

And I did find this amusing:

a model that the authors are acknowledging is out-of-whack with what should be.

Wasn't it just yesterday that all market decisions were rational? :-)
   84. Shooty: Applying to be Fearless Leader Posted: November 13, 2009 at 09:56 PM (#3387383)
In this particular case with the Hakes and Saucer paper, I'm more likely to trust the peer review process than random reviewers on the Internet (of course, tango is a not a random reviewer on the Internet so I'm certainly willing to lend more gravitas to his opinion).

But why? If you read the paper, and then someone who calls himself Dracula's Garlic on the internet makes a cogent, incisive critique of the paper, what does it matter if it's been professionally vetted or not? Smart is smart.
   85. Ron Johnson Posted: November 13, 2009 at 09:59 PM (#3387385)
Bill didn't even use regression models for Runs Created.


Right, and you can see that in minor ways (like the clearly incorrect weights for SF and sac bunts)

I'm pretty sure that it started as an accidental discovery -- AB*OBP*SLG being the first version he came out with.

Then a lot of trial and error to get the weights close for stolen bases and then more trial and error for everything else.

Worth noting that there's a little mini-rant in one of the early Abstracts on the subject of regression based formulas by people who don't understand the game. Will see if I can dig it up.
   86. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 13, 2009 at 10:02 PM (#3387389)
Tango's post was rather pointless. He's extrapolating the model beyond the data. That's always a bad idea. And it doesn't matter what any model predicts for the salary of a 180/180 OF with 600 PA because such a beastie will never exist.

I thing you're misreading him here. He tries to stay within the data to find a 600 PA guy comparable to a 340/400 400 PA guy. But he can't do it. Their model won't admit any player with 600 PA could have as low a salary as the 400 PA 340/400 guy. He only extrapolates to make his point that the model is severely broken.
   87. Tango Posted: November 13, 2009 at 10:03 PM (#3387390)
Here's another example of the Sakes/Hauer model, if you use their equation from Table 2, years 2001 (which you can see in post 29 above).

Make someone a free agent, with 600 PA, a .330 OBP, .400 SLG outfielder. His salary is 3.2MM. Make him a SS or C, and it's 3.4MM.

Does that make sense to anyone?

What if we give him 500 PA instead, with a .500 SLG and .400 OBP. Pretty attractive, right? Well, it's the same 3.2MM$ salary for the OF, and the same 3.4MM$ salary for the SS.

Now, if they are suggesting their empirical model, based on actual performance data of 2000 that says that an OF with 600 PA, a .330 OBP and .400 SLG is making in free agency as much as the SS with 500 PA, with a .400 OBP and .500 SLG, then should I accept that? Do I need to go further to disprove them? Even if they can somehow justify it, isn't it more plausible to think that this is some sort of anomoly whereby the uncertainty in the data is so large as to make such a conclusion insignificant?

You have to have SOME logical underpinnings, don't you? You can't just throw everything into the regression grinder, and think that you will get a filet mignon, or even a kielbasa? Sometimes, you get dog food.

Why is it to me to disprove such an unreasonable claim, and not for the authors of the paper to prove it?
   88. Ron Johnson Posted: November 13, 2009 at 10:04 PM (#3387393)
he seems to used -0- as a baseline rather than some replacement level (which he says is a useless concept)


Seems to me that replacement level (as defined by GM choices) ought to be a testable hypothesis. To re-state more meaningfully, GM actions ought to tell us where they see replacement level -- even if I haven't figured out how to run the study.
   89. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 13, 2009 at 10:07 PM (#3387396)
Make someone a free agent, with 600 PA, a .330 OBP, .400 SLG outfielder. His salary is 3.2MM. Make him a SS or C, and it's 3.4MM.

Does that make sense to anyone?


Nope, Tango.
   90. Tango Posted: November 13, 2009 at 10:08 PM (#3387397)
Tango's post was rather pointless. He's extrapolating the model beyond the data. That's always a bad idea.


I'll have to repeat it for the third time: it's not that I tested it only on the extremes. It's that I started at the average, and I started going away from it to see how extreme I needed to go to get an equivalency to a somewhat average player, but with a different playing time.

And, I would expect, in real-life, that I would go down somewhat on the playing time and upwards somewhat on the rate stats to get that equivalency.

It's not that it failed at the extremes, but it failed at every point, that I couldn't even justify it even at the extremes. There was no data point that would make sense.

In other words, the breakdown at the extreme is not the anomoly, but REPRESENTATIVE of what the model was doing. The whole thing made no sense. This is evidenced with my later post (in post 87), and your real-life data (post 83).

Edit: or what snapper/86 said, which is both briefer and clearer. If you follow snapper/86, don't bother reading this post.
   91. Dewey, Steven Wright Wannabe and Soupuss Posted: November 13, 2009 at 10:10 PM (#3387398)
if they are suggesting their empirical model, based on actual performance data of 2000 that says that an OF with 600 PA, a .330 OBP and .400 SLG is making in free agency as much as the SS with 500 PA, with a .400 OBP and .500 SLG, then should I accept that?

But it's peer-reviewed.
   92. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: November 13, 2009 at 10:17 PM (#3387403)
But why? If you read the paper, and then someone who calls himself Dracula's Garlic on the internet makes a cogent, incisive critique of the paper, what does it matter if it's been professionally vetted or not? Smart is smart.

Because unless the paper in area that I hold competency, I can't evaluate if a critique is cogent or incisive. I'll defer to the experts rather than simply trust Dracula's Garlic. But like I already said, in this particular case, Dracula's Garlic is a well-known, established researcher himself. I'm certainly willing to trust his evaluations within reasonable limits. Of course, I should just read the damn subset of articles in question in order to come a fully informed opinion. But for now, I'm happy to read the side comments.
   93. Shooty: Applying to be Fearless Leader Posted: November 13, 2009 at 10:21 PM (#3387406)
Gotcha birdlives. With the exception of a handful of primates, none of us has the time to be an expert on everything. I was too broad with my example.
   94. For the Turnstiles (andeux) Posted: November 13, 2009 at 10:21 PM (#3387407)
In another discussion of regression (in the context of linear weights) last month, someone linked to this article, which gives a nice summary of the problems with the "throw everything into a regression" approach.
   95. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 13, 2009 at 10:22 PM (#3387409)
Dracula's Garlic is a well-known, established researcher himself.


I agree, though the work of Talbot's Wolf Bane is much more nuanced, IMO.
   96. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: November 13, 2009 at 10:23 PM (#3387410)
if they are suggesting their empirical model, based on actual performance data of 2000 that says that an OF with 600 PA, a .330 OBP and .400 SLG is making in free agency as much as the SS with 500 PA, with a .400 OBP and .500 SLG, then should I accept that?

But it's peer-reviewed.


Come on, let's not take things to an extreme. Everybody academic has read a peer-reviewed article in flagship journals that puzzled the hell out of them as to why this piece of crap was published.
   97. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 13, 2009 at 10:25 PM (#3387412)
Come on, let's not take things to an extreme. Everybody academic has read a peer-reviewed article in flagship journals that puzzled the hell out of them as to why this piece of crap was published.

Check your sarcasm detector.
   98. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: November 13, 2009 at 10:27 PM (#3387414)
Check your sarcasm detector.

I can't because I'm getting a lot interference while sitting in my mother's basement.
   99. Ron Johnson Posted: November 13, 2009 at 10:28 PM (#3387415)
Incidentally, as somebody quite capable of coming up with a study every bit as "poorly" designed as these guys I'd be willing to bet that multicollinearity is a tempest in a teapot. Given the standard error in the estimates, it's just not going to matter a lot.

I know it makes (almost) no difference when modeling team runs scored to use just OBP/SLG, BA/OBP/SLG or BA/IWR/ISO. Not sure why it would matter a lot here.

And OBP*N+SLG (for whatever value of N makes sense in context. N=1.8 is a good choice) isn't a heck of a lot better than simple OPS.

Sensible rounding cures the ills.

As for why SLG seems to have a "wrong" weight in their model, simple explanation for that to my mind. RBI still matter and SLG*(AB with runners on base) has a very high correlation with RBI (particularly in cases headed for an arbitrator. Bill James has said he never breaks out his toolkit in arbitration presentations because it's all on the clock and demonstrating the validity of any method is just too time consuming)

IOW my nit is the absence of rbi from the model.

Another big issue is the failure to deal with salary inflation.
   100. Zach Posted: November 13, 2009 at 10:35 PM (#3387420)
I agree with Tango's points in this thread.

I don't have a philosophical problem with economists studying anything under the sun. I just wish they would use something more sophisticated than regression to do it, or at least go to more pains to make sure that the data set really is linear.

As others have pointed out, regression will happily give you an answer no matter what garbage you put into it. That makes it a dangerous tool, because it won't necessarily warn you that you're putting in garbage. That equation has seven parameters! The coefficient for OBP is negative!

Fermi once said "With four parameters, I can fit an elephant. With five parameters, I can make him wiggle his tail." Seven free parameters will make even crummy models seem to fit the data well.
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