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Tuesday, August 14, 2012

Cincinnati Reds discussing Billy Hamilton call up | The Baseball Page

Speed is of the essence.

Jim Furtado Posted: August 14, 2012 at 10:29 AM | 25 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: reds

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   1. Boxkutter Posted: August 14, 2012 at 10:44 AM (#4207913)
They don't need to call up Hamilton (although I wouldn't mind seeing him in the majors), Dusty just needs to learn that that 1 and 2 spots in the line-up shouldn't be reserved for your two regulars with the lowest OBP. It has to do with line-up management, not roster management.
   2. hokieneer Posted: August 14, 2012 at 11:13 AM (#4207944)
Yep, see also Corey Patterson and Willy Taveras in years past getting so many PA in the lead off spot. Lineup construction is not Dusty's strength.

Cozart is a fine defender and his bat is serviceable as long as it's at the bottom of the order. Plus does anyone think Hamilton will be able to get on base at the major league level any better than Cozart?
   3. Bourbon Samurai, what price fettucine? Posted: August 14, 2012 at 11:22 AM (#4207952)
I don't care about any of these facts, I just want to see him steal crazy bases. Do it!
   4. JJ1986 Posted: August 14, 2012 at 11:27 AM (#4207955)
Cozart is a fine defender and his bat is serviceable as long as it's at the bottom of the order. Plus does anyone think Hamilton will be able to get on base at the major league level any better than Cozart?


I wouldn't stick Hamilton in the lineup, but there's no reason not to have him on the team as a pinch runner in September.
   5. Random Transaction Generator Posted: August 14, 2012 at 11:30 AM (#4207960)
I don't care about any of these facts, I just want to see him steal crazy bases. Do it!

"Do you want to talk about on-base percentage, or do you want to see me steal some bases?"
   6. hokieneer Posted: August 14, 2012 at 11:34 AM (#4207962)
I wouldn't stick Hamilton in the lineup, but there's no reason not to have him on the team as a pinch runner in September.


Yeah I agree, and if the Reds continue to win, even beyond September.

This article was specifically talking about Hamilton being the savior to the lead off spot troubles, not just a high leverage PR.
   7. Justin T seeks a heterospecific consortship Posted: August 14, 2012 at 11:41 AM (#4207968)
As the article notes, the guy is like three days from breaking the record. If, for some reason, they call him up before that, it would be incredibly lame.

Especially as I don't see him being an obvious savior at Leadoff by any means.
   8. JJ1986 Posted: August 14, 2012 at 11:42 AM (#4207973)
This article was specifically talking about Hamilton being the savior to the lead off spot troubles, not just a high leverage PR.


Ah, I did not read the article.

I feel like this (top two spots in the order) has been a problem for the Reds for years. Votto has typically been by far their best on base guy, but he's a 3-4 hitter. Their other best hitters are Bruce/Phillips who are (relatively) low OBP guys who would ideally hit behind him and they always have a few bottom of the order guys (Stubbs/SS). It's hard to convince a manager that a part time catcher would be his best leadoff hitter.
   9. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: August 14, 2012 at 12:19 PM (#4207996)
Horrible article. Just horrible.

The headline is, at least, misleading in that there is no mention in the article that anyone with the Reds is "discussing" anything of the sort. Being a blog post, I absolutely blame the author for the headline.

For now though things seem clear. Cincinnati needs to call him up to the big leagues and bolster the one real weak spot in their lineup.

The Reds' struggle in the 1/2 spots, so the solution is to bring up a guy with a month above A ball who has no obvious defensive position on the MLB team?

Currently batting cleanup, Phillips is naturally more of a leadoff hitter. But with the recent extension of Joey Votto’s DL stint it doesn’t look like Phillips will be going anywhere
While better than Stubbs or Cozart, BP's .334 OBP (.323 career) doesn't exactly scream "natural leadoff hitter". Further, Joey Votto's DL stint has nothing to do with whether BP hits cleanup - Votto's hit 4th 97 times. In his career. This year, he has one PA that wasn't in the 3 hole. Also, IF (and it's a really, really big if) they call up Hamilton, it surely wouldn't be before Sept. 1, by which time Votto should be back - so even if it was an issue of moving BP, by the time Hamilton got there it wouldn't be an issue.

Meanwhile, they could vastly improve the current order with what they have, if so inclined:
Ludwick is slugging 100 points higher than BP; move him to 4th (which Dusty's done for the past week).
Put Frazier in the top half of the lineup.
Leave Stubbs at the top; one bad OBP at the top of the lineup isn't nearly as bad, no one is going to hit a catcher 1st, and there aren't any better options.

Stubbs
BP
Frazier
Ludwick
Bruce
Rolen
Hanigan
Cozart
P

When Votto comes back, move BP, Frazier and Hanigan up one spot (Frazier playing for Rolen) and put Stubbs in the 7 spot.
   10. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: August 14, 2012 at 12:40 PM (#4208019)
Enough with the naysaying!

2B Phillips
RF Bruce
SS Frazier
1B Votto
LF Ludwick
3B Rolen
CF Hamilton
C Hanigan
P

What's that? Frazier isn't really a SS and Hamilton has never played CF or shown he can hit? Irrelevant! Reds have fly ball pitchers and Hamilton is fast! I say do it! If Maddon is a genius for playing Zobrist at SS, then this will surely work.
   11. Dan Posted: August 14, 2012 at 01:11 PM (#4208039)
Leave Stubbs at the top; one bad OBP at the top of the lineup isn't nearly as bad, no one is going to hit a catcher 1st, and there aren't any better options.



Oh really? Jaso hit leadoff more than anyone else on the 2010 Rays.
   12. Boxkutter Posted: August 14, 2012 at 01:20 PM (#4208044)
Oh really? Jaso hit leadoff more than anyone else on the 2010 Rays.

HA! Beat me to it. I am in a DMB Sim League with a guy who is batting Wilson Ramos lead-off too.
   13. hokieneer Posted: August 14, 2012 at 01:26 PM (#4208047)
I feel like this (top two spots in the order) has been a problem for the Reds for years.


It has. Some of it has been roster construction, no real star OBP guys outside of Votto and the catchers. Some if it has been lineup construction. If I had to guess, I'd say that 75% of the time since Dusty has been there, the Reds have had their CF/SS hitting 1/2 in some order (with a little Phillips mixed in), no matter who they were. It's the idiotic "those guys are fast and can handle the bat" approach to writing a lineup. Corey Patterson, Willy Taveras, Paul Janish, Orlando Cabrera, Edgar Renteria, Drew Stubbs, Zach Cozart, Chris Heisey... have all been hitting in front of Votto over the years. It's a wonder Votto ever cracks 60 RBIs.


Oh really? Jaso hit leadoff more than anyone else on the 2010 Rays.


Is there any manager right now that's further from Maddon's approach than Dusty?
   14. Bug Selig Posted: August 14, 2012 at 01:52 PM (#4208067)
BP's .334 OBP (.323 career) doesn't exactly scream "natural leadoff hitter".


Black.

Second.

Baseman.
   15. Dan Posted: August 14, 2012 at 02:01 PM (#4208074)
Is there any manager right now that's further from Maddon's approach than Dusty?


No argument there, but the statement was that no manager would do it.
   16. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: August 14, 2012 at 02:03 PM (#4208076)
no one is going to hit a catcher 1st


AHEM.
   17. just plain joe Posted: August 14, 2012 at 02:11 PM (#4208080)
If Maddon is a genius for playing Zobrist at SS, then this will surely work.


At least until the next time Rolen gets hurt.
   18. hokieneer Posted: August 14, 2012 at 02:22 PM (#4208090)
At least until the next time Rolen gets hurt.

Is it Thursday yet?
   19. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: August 14, 2012 at 02:44 PM (#4208115)
I feel like this (top two spots in the order) has been a problem for the Reds for years.
Ya know, people beat up Baker for lineup construction, but he hasn't been dealt an ideal hand either.

Since '08 (Dusty's 1st season), >300 PA, >.350 OBP, non-Votto division:

'12: Hanigan .363
'11: Hanigan .356, BP .353 (Phillips lead off 38 games)
'10: Hernandez .364, Rolen .358, Bruce .353
'09: No one. Jonny Gomes (!) had the 2nd highest OBP among those with 300 PA, .338
'08: Dunn .373, Griffey .355

While I admit hitting Hanigan 1st would be improvement, even as the primary catcher in front of a rookie who isn't hitting well he's only getting 60% of the starts; what do you do the other 40% of the time?
   20. Yonder Alonso in misguided trousers (cardinal) Posted: August 14, 2012 at 03:48 PM (#4208189)
If / when Hamilton does come up, who moves off short, him or Cozart? Whichever it is, where do they go?
   21. BillWallace Posted: August 14, 2012 at 04:10 PM (#4208209)
Putting a high OBP guy up top is not as important as having your best hitters bat in the top 5 spots, with the best ideally at 1,2,4. Here's a good Reds lineup without Votto

1) Phillips
2) Bruce
3) Frazier
4) Ludwick
5) Rolen
6) Hannigan
7) Stubbs
8) Cozart
9) P

Here are a couple Reds lineups with Votto

1) Phillips
2) Bruce
3) Ludwick
4) Votto
5) Frazier (or Rolen)
6) Hannigan
7) Stubbs
8) Cozart

or my preference

1) Phillips
2) Votto
3) Ludwick
4) Bruce
5) Frazier (or Rolen)
6) Stubbs
7) Cozart
8) P
9) Hannigan
   22. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: August 14, 2012 at 04:51 PM (#4208267)
If / when Hamilton does come up, who moves off short, him or Cozart? Whichever it is, where do they go?
Hamilton probably can't stick at SS; he has 30 errors this year so far, and had 39 last year. Also, Didi Gregorius is considered #2 behind Cozart; he currently has a .776 OPS in AAA Louisville (Hamilton's OPS is .816 in AA Pensacola), is considered a much better fielder than Hamilton, and is just 5 months older.

If Hamilton moved up today (which isn't going to happen), he'd be much more likely to replace Stubbs in CF. Which presents it's own conundrum - Stubbs is considered a plus defender in CF (cue Harvey's disparaging remarks), and Hamilton's only played 2B/SS in the minors.
   23. Walt Davis Posted: August 15, 2012 at 08:20 AM (#4208596)
So Hamilton is an even faster Tony Womack.

In the 3 games out of every 10 that he's healthy, I'd bat Rolen leadoff and pretend it's 2009 again.
   24. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 15, 2012 at 08:43 AM (#4208602)
oh for crissakes the reds have been winning thanks to pitching, defense and hitting homers. anyone fussing about the reds lineup is bloviating about something that is all but irrelevant to the reds success.

dusty got a great season out of the corpse of ryan ludwick. he stuck frazier in the lineup and got great production. he stuck with jay bruce who has more ups and downs than a manic depressive. the bullpen has been fabulous

the manager has done a stellar job and if he puts drew stubbs and zack cozart 1/2 folks should just accept it and shut up already

jesus christ i think baker is a bit loony but this endless prattle about the trivial defies explanation.
   25. asinwreck Posted: August 15, 2012 at 11:11 AM (#4208669)
Stick him in short centerfield. Let the Reds have an extra player on the field if necessary.

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