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Tuesday, October 26, 2010

Cliff Lee trade falling through ultimately costs Yankees, Brian Cashman in ALCS ouster

Why should you want to know?
Why are you obsessed with fighting
Times and fates you can’t defy?

[Yankee GM Brian] Cashman says he ultimately turned down the deal when the Mariners came back to him wanting another of his top prospects, either shortstop Eduardo Nunez or pitcher Ivan Nova, in addition to [Jesus] Montero.

I have to give him the benefit of the doubt this time. He was reluctant to offer any of his top prospects, knowing he could soon go get [Cliff] Lee the way he did [C.C.] Sabathia, for big money and no players.

Yet he decided having Lee for this season was worth Montero and the other player the Mariners first asked for, Triple-A second baseman David Adams - who was on the disabled list at the time with an ankle injury.

“He’d been on the DL for two months,” said Cashman, “and (the Mariners) were bugging me about him for a week. I finally said yes and it turned out they didn’t know he was hurt. They came back and asked for either Nunez or Nova.”...

“We see Nunez as a starting shortstop in the big leagues,” he said, “and Nova as a starting pitcher with great potential. I couldn’t do that for a three-month rental. There was no guarantee what would happen going forward. It was too much to give up for three months.”

The District Attorney Posted: October 26, 2010 at 02:05 PM | 59 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: mariners, rangers, yankees

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   1. The Pequod Posted: October 26, 2010 at 02:35 PM (#3675960)
“He’d been on the DL for two months,” said Cashman, “and (the Mariners) were bugging me about him for a week. I finally said yes and it turned out they didn’t know he was hurt.”

Boy, between this and Leuke it sounds like the Mariners could really use The Google.
   2. Best Regards, Larry M. Posted: October 26, 2010 at 02:36 PM (#3675963)
And Cashman was right to not make the trade.

If the Yankees had Cliff Lee, they still might have gotten rolled in the ALCS. Lee doesn't hit.
   3. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: October 26, 2010 at 02:36 PM (#3675965)
The Mariners don't seem to know a lot about other team's prospects.
   4. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: October 26, 2010 at 02:37 PM (#3675966)
6ehold!
   5. Shooty: Applying to be Fearless Leader Posted: October 26, 2010 at 02:41 PM (#3675969)
The Mariners don't seem to know a lot about other team's prospects.

Which is embarassing since all they had to do was go to one of the Yankees blogs run by a basement dwelling nerd to find out. I'm sorry, but the M's seem very Mickey Mouse.
   6. Rich Posted: October 26, 2010 at 02:41 PM (#3675970)
I'm still glad that Cashman was saved from himself.
   7. Spivey Posted: October 26, 2010 at 02:42 PM (#3675974)
Do the Mariners even scout/research the players they want? Sounds like trading with the Mariners could become quite a market inefficiency.
   8. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: October 26, 2010 at 02:44 PM (#3675978)
This seems weird to me. I thought Jesus Montero was one of the best few prospects in the entire world, a guy who projects to be worth millions upon millions for whatever club has him during his indentured service years. And he wasn't the issue, it was mediocre 24-year-olds who probably won't ever amount to more than AAA-shuttle or bench filler that kept Cashman from making the trade? I'm not saying Nunez or Nova is worthless, but the gap in projected value between those guys and Montero is huge. It's weird they'd be the deal-breaker.
   9. Best Regards, Larry M. Posted: October 26, 2010 at 02:48 PM (#3675983)
This seems weird to me. I thought Jesus Montero was one of the best few prospects in the entire world, a guy who projects to be worth millions upon millions for whatever club has him during his indentured service years. And he wasn't the issue, it was mediocre 24-year-olds who probably won't ever amount to more than AAA-shuttle or bench filler that kept Cashman from making the trade? I'm not saying Nunez or Nova is worthless, but the gap in projected value between those guys and Montero is huge. It's weird they'd be the deal-breaker.
It appears that they view Nunez as Jeter's replacement (at least on an interim basis) and Nova has a shot at cracking the rotation or at least being in the bullpen next year.

From Cashman's perspective, the "first opportunity to sign a guy before he's a free agent" isn't really worth much -- and in fact, he considers a player demanding an extension before approving a trade to make the trade worth less -- and, he's pretty much right about that -- when it comes to the Yankees. So he viewed the trade as being merely three months of Cliff Lee.

Because, let's face it, if the Yankees want to sign a guy and he hits free agency, there doesn't seem to be any obstruction to them doing that beyond their own desire to pay.
   10. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: October 26, 2010 at 02:49 PM (#3675985)
Do the Mariners even scout/research the players they want? Sounds like trading with the Mariners could become quite a market inefficiency.

You're giving us Babe Ruth and Mickey Mantle for Felix Hernandez?

Yep.

[Two weeks later]

Wait a minute...cassssshhhhMMMMAAAAAN!!!! [Shakes fist in rage]
   11. rLr Is King Of The Romans And Above Grammar Posted: October 26, 2010 at 02:53 PM (#3675991)
Maybe the White Sox can trade Seattle Omar Vizquel for a besideburned Carl Yastrzemski.
   12. Rich Posted: October 26, 2010 at 02:54 PM (#3675993)
So he viewed the trade as being merely three months of Cliff Lee.


Which is why trading Montero, given that they have several aging (and possibly declining) position players, seems so ill-advised.
   13. John M. Perkins Posted: October 26, 2010 at 02:58 PM (#3675996)
What was Cashman Smoak ing?
   14. Vaux, A.B.D. Posted: October 26, 2010 at 03:03 PM (#3675999)
Looking at Nova, I'm surprised that there's support for him having been the sticking point.
   15. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: October 26, 2010 at 03:06 PM (#3676002)
From Cashman's perspective, the "first opportunity to sign a guy before he's a free agent" isn't really worth much -- and in fact, he considers a player demanding an extension before approving a trade to make the trade worth less -- and, he's pretty much right about that -- when it comes to the Yankees. So he viewed the trade as being merely three months of Cliff Lee.
I was going to respond to this, but then I saw that Rich made the exact point I was going to make. Then I decided I might as well be redundant.

I find convincing the argument that the Yankees should not have traded Jesus Montero for Cliff Lee. That isn't what Cashman says happened though - he says he offered to trade Jesus Montero for Cliff Lee. What I find weird is that having decided to trade Montero for Lee, Cashman decided that Nunez or Nova were too valuable to include in the deal.

EDIT: obviously, I also find it weird that Smoak + rapist would be considered a better offer by the Mariners front office.
   16. cardsfanboy Posted: October 26, 2010 at 03:10 PM (#3676007)
I think the Mariners front office needs to make some changes and get someone competent, I mean seriously they are going to become the laughingstock of baseball soon, they need to sign Littlefield or someone like that which will improve their gms trade capability.
   17. cardsfanboy Posted: October 26, 2010 at 03:14 PM (#3676013)
I find convincing the argument that the Yankees should not have traded Jesus Montero for Cliff Lee. That isn't what Cashman says happened though - he says he offered to trade Jesus Montero for Cliff Lee. What I find weird is that having decided to trade Montero for Lee, Cashman decided that Nunez or Nova were too valuable to include in the deal.


it's possible that Cashman took an effort to convince himself that trading Montero for Lee was an acceptable risk, but thought that it was already more than generous offer, and that giving an injured player would be ok, but a healthy player he wasn't going to add a potential major leaguer.
   18. Cowboy Popup Posted: October 26, 2010 at 03:19 PM (#3676018)
What I find weird is that having decided to trade Montero for Lee, Cashman decided that Nunez or Nova were too valuable to include in the deal.

Well, they are insurance plans and possible trade deadline bait for relievers or bench players. They may not be high upside or average players, but they are still cheap Major League ready players and teams seem to value that. If Montero was as high as Cashman was willing to go, then adding other ballplayers that have value, however marginal that value might be, should be enough to get him to back out of the deal.
   19. Baldrick Posted: October 26, 2010 at 03:31 PM (#3676039)
I find convincing the argument that the Yankees should not have traded Jesus Montero for Cliff Lee. That isn't what Cashman says happened though - he says he offered to trade Jesus Montero for Cliff Lee. What I find weird is that having decided to trade Montero for Lee, Cashman decided that Nunez or Nova were too valuable to include in the deal.

I don’t really see what the problem is. Sure it seems a little weird to make the big commitment and then fight them at the margin. But, that’s precisely what it takes to make a good deal. If it was breaking a deal over 50 cents obviously that would be silly. But these guys are not meaningless.

If you value a Cliff Lee at 100, and value Montero at 95, then it’s a good trade. If you value Nunez and Nova at 10 each, then it no longer is a good deal.
   20. Steve Sparks Flying Everywhere Posted: October 26, 2010 at 03:40 PM (#3676044)
I think the Mariners front office needs to make some changes and get someone competent, I mean seriously they are going to become the laughingstock of baseball soon, they need to sign Littlefield or someone like that which will improve their gms trade capability.


It sounds like there is some serious miscommunication going on in the Mariners FO. Someone in the organization must have known that Leuke was a rapist and Adams was hurt, but apparently that message was never passed on. Maybe their email is broken. Or Jack Z is really scary to talk to.
   21. Best Regards, Larry M. Posted: October 26, 2010 at 04:01 PM (#3676058)
Which is why trading Montero, given that they have several aging (and possibly declining) position players, seems so ill-advised.
Montero's most likely position seems to be "DH". I mean, he could end up being a David Ortiz-type DH, so very valuable. But still, he's not going to be replacing Jeter, and he's probably not even going to be replacing Posada.
   22. Best Regards, Larry M. Posted: October 26, 2010 at 04:03 PM (#3676060)
What I find weird is that having decided to trade Montero for Lee, Cashman decided that Nunez or Nova were too valuable to include in the deal.


It wasn't that Nunez or Nova were too valuable, it was that Montero, Nunez and Nova were too valuable.
   23. Melo's Love Handles (NJ) Posted: October 26, 2010 at 04:05 PM (#3676064)
But still, he's not going to be replacing Jeter, and he's probably not even going to be replacing Posada.

Yesterday's press conference seems to indicate he is replacing Posada in 2011.
   24. Rich Posted: October 26, 2010 at 04:09 PM (#3676070)
Montero's most likely position seems to be "DH". I mean, he could end up being a David Ortiz-type DH, so very valuable. But still, he's not going to be replacing Jeter, and he's probably not even going to be replacing Posada.


Given how bad Posada (and Cervelli) were behind the plate this season, can Montero's defense really be that much worse?
   25. Bob Dernier Cri Posted: October 26, 2010 at 04:15 PM (#3676077)
Montero always makes me think of Marianne Moore for some reason:

("Grazed a Yankee!
My baby catcher, Montero!"
With some pedagogy,
you'll be tough, premature prodigy.)


Adapted ...
   26. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: October 26, 2010 at 04:19 PM (#3676084)
It wasn't that Nunez or Nova were too valuable, it was that Montero, Nunez and Nova were too valuable.

The quote in the excerpt says they asked for Montero plus Nunez or Nova.
   27. Danny Posted: October 26, 2010 at 04:26 PM (#3676091)
I can't imagine it would be difficult for the Yankees to find someone as good as Nunez on the waiver wire, as a minor league free agent, or a FA veteran at near the MLB minimum.

From Cashman's perspective, the "first opportunity to sign a guy before he's a free agent" isn't really worth much

Even if you don't think it makes the signing any easier, it would likely be worth a first round draft pick in this instance.
   28. Melo's Love Handles (NJ) Posted: October 26, 2010 at 04:29 PM (#3676095)
I can't imagine it would be difficult for the Yankees to find someone as good as Nunez on the waiver wire, as a minor league free agent, or a FA veteran at near the MLB minimum.

Hey! Top 20 Prospects in the International League don't just grow on trees.
   29. The District Attorney Posted: October 26, 2010 at 04:32 PM (#3676098)
it was that Montero, Nunez and Nova were too valuable.
Just to clarify, we're talking Montero and (Nunez or Nova), not all three guys.

If you value a Cliff Lee at 100, and value Montero at 95, then it’s a good trade. If you value Nunez and Nova at 10 each, then it no longer is a good deal.
I suppose, but if you buy that Cliff Lee is going to be a very significant postseason factor, then this would be saying that you don't mind leaving the postseason earlier because it's more important that you retain Eduardo Nunez. (In other words, what is increased chance of doing well in the playoffs worth in your calculus?) Plus, naturally, the larger point that many folks would not only rate Montero 5% less valuable than three months of Cliff Lee (to a team that will have an excellent chance to sign him after the season in any case), but actually would rate him more valuable.

I have to admit that I do love the image of the M's continually calling and begging for David Adams, and Cashman demurring that he simply can't afford to part with that kind of prospect, while a voice in his head keeps saying "what the hell do they want this guy for, anyway." Cashman = operator

And that being said, another question I guess could be posed is, does it help the Yankee org for Cashman to get so specific about this stuff...
   30. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 26, 2010 at 04:45 PM (#3676107)
Yesterday's press conference seems to indicate he is replacing Posada in 2011.

I thought it was more that Montero will have a chance to win a roster spot in spring training, which probably equates to "we think he should be capable of doing that". I see him splitting the DH time (that isn't devoted to resting A-Rod, Jeter & to a lesser extent Teixeira) with Posada, while doing some catching depending on how much his defense allows. Might need to carry a 3rd catcher, which would probably also require a utility player that can play both infield & outfield.
   31. bunyon Posted: October 26, 2010 at 05:14 PM (#3676150)
And that being said, another question I guess could be posed is, does it help the Yankee org for Cashman to get so specific about this stuff...

If the Mariners didn't know about the rapist and an injured player, I doubt they'll find out what Cashman is saying in interviews.
   32. Baldrick Posted: October 26, 2010 at 05:16 PM (#3676153)
I suppose, but if you buy that Cliff Lee is going to be a very significant postseason factor, then this would be saying that you don't mind leaving the postseason earlier because it's more important that you retain Eduardo Nunez. (In other words, what is increased chance of doing well in the playoffs worth in your calculus?)

Maybe I’m thick but I still don’t see what the argument here even is. The Yankees appear to have valued the entire package of pluses and minuses of obtaining Lee to be sufficiently high that it was worth parting with Montero, but not sufficiently high that it was worth parting with Montero+some other guy. Obviously, the value of Lee in the postseason is already factored into that equation.

I’m not claiming it was the ‘right’ decision or whatever. I’m just saying that it’s perfectly reasonable to refuse to make a trade of two marquee guys (in one sense or another) because the value of the throw-ins unbalances the deal.
   33. Shooty: Applying to be Fearless Leader Posted: October 26, 2010 at 05:25 PM (#3676160)
I’m not claiming it was the ‘right’ decision or whatever. I’m just saying that it’s perfectly reasonable to refuse to make a trade of two marquee guys (in one sense or another) because the value of the throw-ins unbalances the deal.

Agreed, but it's also reasonable to wonder if the cost of not making it to the WS is worth Eduardo Nunez which is the fallout Cashman is dealing with and why he's making an attempt to justify himself publically. I'm not saying it's fair, but it's the kind of criticism you deal with as gm of the Yankees.
   34. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: October 26, 2010 at 05:36 PM (#3676172)
Does the Yankees' history and success put more or less pressure on Cashman in a situation like this? I can see Cashman reasoning that, well, we've already got 27 championships, including one last year, and we'll always be a contender, so why trade the farm for a slightly better shot at winning this year? At the same time, there's obviously tremendous pressure on him to do everything possible to win this year because winning the WS is the only acceptable outcome.
   35. Mayor Blomberg Posted: October 26, 2010 at 05:47 PM (#3676178)
In any trade the price eventually becomes too high, sometimes with a central piece, sometimes with ancillary pieces. If it didn't, there'd be no point at which you could say to another team, "No, you've got enough already" until you'd emptied the farm. And by definition in that case it's always a minor piece.

25 - Well played, Bob, even if she was a Dodgers fan.
   36. Walt Davis Posted: October 26, 2010 at 07:11 PM (#3676222)
I bet the Mariners buy the floormats and the stereo upgrade too.

I think what #29 is asking is (a) this is unusually specific for a GM isn't it? and (b) how does this make Montero feel? (must make Nunez and Nova feel pretty good) and (c) did he just put more pressure on himself to sign Cliff Lee?

It's one thing for "sources close to the negotiation" to say that Montero and Adams had been agreed to, etc. For Cashman to talk so openly about this strikes me as quite rare. Of course everybody's supposed to be a grownup and he may have already informed Montero's agent during the negotiations so maybe all parties were aware of this.

As to his decision, it depends on whether you believe him in the part where he says they see Nunez as a starting SS and Nova as a decent or better starting pitcher. If he believes that, then (from his perspective) swapping Montero and one of those guys might have been a worse deal than the Randy Johnson for Garcia, Guillen and Halama deal. Wouldn't you rather have the D-Backs side of that one? :-)

the Mariners could really use The Google.

No way dude, they've developed their own proprietary search engine!
   37. vortex of dissipation Posted: October 26, 2010 at 07:16 PM (#3676225)
Wouldn't you rather have the D-Backs side of that one?


That was Houston.
   38. Shooty: Applying to be Fearless Leader Posted: October 26, 2010 at 07:20 PM (#3676230)
That was Houston.

FAIL!

edit: Walt set a trap with his sticky, sticky honey.
   39. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 26, 2010 at 07:35 PM (#3676238)

I have to admit that I do love the image of the M's continually calling and begging for David Adams, and Cashman demurring that he simply can't afford to part with that kind of prospect, while a voice in his head keeps saying "what the hell do they want this guy for, anyway."


Injured second basemen are the new under-valued asset!
   40. Walt Davis Posted: October 26, 2010 at 08:06 PM (#3676259)
Thanks Shooty!
   41. Jeff R., P***y Mainlander Posted: October 26, 2010 at 08:24 PM (#3676270)
No way dude, they've developed their own proprietary search engine!


It runs on the tears of Mariners fans.
   42. Eric P. Posted: October 26, 2010 at 08:52 PM (#3676290)
6oo6le is going to take the world by storm.
   43. fhomess Posted: October 26, 2010 at 09:30 PM (#3676322)
I think it's also important to consider that the value of Cliff Lee to the Yankees is significantly less than his value to most other clubs. The Yankees looked like a much better bet when the trade was not made than they did when the Yankees were knocked out of the postseason. Yes, adding Lee increases the chances of winning it all, but by how much? That's hard to quantify, and I have little doubt that Cashman did his best to figure it out, but they still got pretty far with Lee on the other team's bench.
   44. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: October 26, 2010 at 11:44 PM (#3676402)
EDIT: obviously, I also find it weird that Smoak + rapist would be considered a better offer by the Mariners front office.


so do I, methinks that, though they won't admit it now, someone in the M's office REALLY REALLY wanted Lueke who reputedly has stunning stuff...
because I gotta tell you if they prefer Smoak v. Montero...
   45. Dave Spiwak Posted: October 26, 2010 at 11:52 PM (#3676410)
It runs on the tears of Mariners fans.


This engine would probably get more mileage running on white-hot rage -- but does anyone in Seattle care that much anymore?
   46. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 27, 2010 at 12:02 AM (#3676419)
"how does this make Montero feel?"

Being almost worth Cliff Lee by yourself is not much of an insult. Plus it was already known he was offered.
   47. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: October 27, 2010 at 12:14 AM (#3676429)
Cashman already traded Jose Tabata for a pile of junk. I'm glad this fell through. So boo hoo, they lost in the ALCS. I'd rather get to watch Montero for 10 years.
   48. Lassus Posted: October 27, 2010 at 12:19 AM (#3676437)
Looking at Nova, I'm surprised that there's support for him having been the sticking point.

Are you kidding? I would have held onto him for his name alone.
   49. Shock Posted: October 27, 2010 at 12:41 AM (#3676448)
Nevermind; I do now.
   50. PepTech Posted: October 27, 2010 at 12:48 AM (#3676452)
I would have held onto him for his name alone.


Wasn't there egg on someone at Chevrolet's face when they finally discovered why the Nova model wasn't selling in Latin America?
   51. Srul Itza Posted: October 27, 2010 at 12:50 AM (#3676454)
I think it's also important to consider that the value of Cliff Lee to the Yankees is significantly less than his value to most other clubs.


Because the team he has the easiest time beating is, apparently, the Yankees.
   52. Srul Itza Posted: October 27, 2010 at 12:53 AM (#3676456)
Wasn't there egg on someone at Chevrolet's face when they finally discovered why the Nova model wasn't selling in Latin America?


Urban legend.
   53. The District Attorney Posted: October 27, 2010 at 02:02 AM (#3676499)
Snopes agrees. It also cites as a legend the one where Coca-Coca was translated in China as "Bite the Wax Tadpole." But surprisingly to me, listed as "undetermined" is the one where "Pepsi is the choice of a new generation" was translated into Japanese as "Pepsi brings your ancestors back from the dead."
   54. Josh1 Posted: October 27, 2010 at 03:11 AM (#3676541)
From Cashman's perspective, the "first opportunity to sign a guy before he's a free agent" isn't really worth much -- and in fact, he considers a player demanding an extension before approving a trade to make the trade worth less -- and, he's pretty much right about that -- when it comes to the Yankees


You do get to keep draft picks if you avoid free agency.
   55. dingo powered war machine (CoB) Posted: October 27, 2010 at 03:48 AM (#3676555)
But surprisingly to me, listed as "undetermined" is the one where "Pepsi is the choice of a new generation" was translated into Japanese as "Pepsi brings your ancestors back from the dead."


Perhaps Pepsi wasn't content to allow Coke to corner the marketing on "our carbonated fructose water can bring the dead back to life" market after Coke fired the first shot in the movie "Mac and Me".

From the My Year of Flops review:


That’s the genius of Product Placement: The Movie—oh, I mean Mac And Me. Just about every major plot point revolves around McDonald’s or Coca-Cola. It pinballs from one product-placement setpiece to another, unencumbered by shame or self-consciousness. Mac’s Spidey senses lead him to a cave where he encounters his dead family. All is not lost, for Mac, Calegory, Ward, the woman in the McDonald’s uniform, and Stanley discover that they can bring the dead aliens back to life by pouring cold, delicious Coca-Cola into their mouths. Not only is Coca-Cola the perfect thirst-quencher, and far superior to Pepsi, it literally has the power to bring the dead back to life. Jesus has nothing on Coca-Cola.
   56. OCD SS Posted: October 27, 2010 at 11:13 AM (#3676614)
Tip of the cap to # 42.
   57. rLr Is King Of The Romans And Above Grammar Posted: October 27, 2010 at 11:37 AM (#3676623)
Being almost worth Cliff Lee by yourself is not much of an insult. Plus it was already known he was offered.

Considering the way Montero hit after the trade fell through, he responded very well.
   58. Mike Emeigh Posted: October 27, 2010 at 08:42 PM (#3677128)
Allow me to propose an alternate scenario.

Could it be the Mariners were "bugging" Cashman about Adams not to get Cashman to include him (which he appeared more than willing to do), but to get him to agree to have the physical done before the trade was finalized? The Mariners' side of this from what I read is that (a) Adams was part of the Yankees' trade proposal, to which (b) they agreed on Thursday "pending exchange of physical information" and that (c) once they learned after the exchange of medical info how badly Adams was hurt, they came back and asked for Nunez or Nova.

Given that Cashman is the guy in the eye of the storm here, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Cashman shaded the truth in just this manner so he could shift the responsibility to the Mariners for the trade being aborted ("hey, don't blame me, we HAD an agreement, I can't help it if they're a bunch of stupid idiots who didn't do their due diligence earlier").

-- MWE
   59. Big Train Posted: October 27, 2010 at 09:18 PM (#3677159)
I think Cashman pulls the trigger on whatever if they lost in the ALCS or the series last year. You know what i mean?

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