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Baseball Primer Newsblog— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand
Tuesday, October 26, 2010
Why should you want to know?
Why are you obsessed with fighting
Times and fates you can’t defy?
[Yankee GM Brian] Cashman says he ultimately turned down the deal when the Mariners came back to him wanting another of his top prospects, either shortstop Eduardo Nunez or pitcher Ivan Nova, in addition to [Jesus] Montero.
I have to give him the benefit of the doubt this time. He was reluctant to offer any of his top prospects, knowing he could soon go get [Cliff] Lee the way he did [C.C.] Sabathia, for big money and no players.
Yet he decided having Lee for this season was worth Montero and the other player the Mariners first asked for, Triple-A second baseman David Adams - who was on the disabled list at the time with an ankle injury.
“He’d been on the DL for two months,” said Cashman, “and (the Mariners) were bugging me about him for a week. I finally said yes and it turned out they didn’t know he was hurt. They came back and asked for either Nunez or Nova.”...
“We see Nunez as a starting shortstop in the big leagues,” he said, “and Nova as a starting pitcher with great potential. I couldn’t do that for a three-month rental. There was no guarantee what would happen going forward. It was too much to give up for three months.”
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1. The Pequod Posted: October 26, 2010 at 02:35 PM (#3675960)Boy, between this and Leuke it sounds like the Mariners could really use The Google.
If the Yankees had Cliff Lee, they still might have gotten rolled in the ALCS. Lee doesn't hit.
Which is embarassing since all they had to do was go to one of the Yankees blogs run by a basement dwelling nerd to find out. I'm sorry, but the M's seem very Mickey Mouse.
From Cashman's perspective, the "first opportunity to sign a guy before he's a free agent" isn't really worth much -- and in fact, he considers a player demanding an extension before approving a trade to make the trade worth less -- and, he's pretty much right about that -- when it comes to the Yankees. So he viewed the trade as being merely three months of Cliff Lee.
Because, let's face it, if the Yankees want to sign a guy and he hits free agency, there doesn't seem to be any obstruction to them doing that beyond their own desire to pay.
You're giving us Babe Ruth and Mickey Mantle for Felix Hernandez?
Yep.
[Two weeks later]
Wait a minute...cassssshhhhMMMMAAAAAN!!!! [Shakes fist in rage]
Which is why trading Montero, given that they have several aging (and possibly declining) position players, seems so ill-advised.
I find convincing the argument that the Yankees should not have traded Jesus Montero for Cliff Lee. That isn't what Cashman says happened though - he says he offered to trade Jesus Montero for Cliff Lee. What I find weird is that having decided to trade Montero for Lee, Cashman decided that Nunez or Nova were too valuable to include in the deal.
EDIT: obviously, I also find it weird that Smoak + rapist would be considered a better offer by the Mariners front office.
it's possible that Cashman took an effort to convince himself that trading Montero for Lee was an acceptable risk, but thought that it was already more than generous offer, and that giving an injured player would be ok, but a healthy player he wasn't going to add a potential major leaguer.
Well, they are insurance plans and possible trade deadline bait for relievers or bench players. They may not be high upside or average players, but they are still cheap Major League ready players and teams seem to value that. If Montero was as high as Cashman was willing to go, then adding other ballplayers that have value, however marginal that value might be, should be enough to get him to back out of the deal.
I don’t really see what the problem is. Sure it seems a little weird to make the big commitment and then fight them at the margin. But, that’s precisely what it takes to make a good deal. If it was breaking a deal over 50 cents obviously that would be silly. But these guys are not meaningless.
If you value a Cliff Lee at 100, and value Montero at 95, then it’s a good trade. If you value Nunez and Nova at 10 each, then it no longer is a good deal.
It sounds like there is some serious miscommunication going on in the Mariners FO. Someone in the organization must have known that Leuke was a rapist and Adams was hurt, but apparently that message was never passed on. Maybe their email is broken. Or Jack Z is really scary to talk to.
It wasn't that Nunez or Nova were too valuable, it was that Montero, Nunez and Nova were too valuable.
Yesterday's press conference seems to indicate he is replacing Posada in 2011.
Given how bad Posada (and Cervelli) were behind the plate this season, can Montero's defense really be that much worse?
("Grazed a Yankee!
My baby catcher, Montero!"
With some pedagogy,
you'll be tough, premature prodigy.)
Adapted ...
The quote in the excerpt says they asked for Montero plus Nunez or Nova.
Even if you don't think it makes the signing any easier, it would likely be worth a first round draft pick in this instance.
Hey! Top 20 Prospects in the International League don't just grow on trees.
I suppose, but if you buy that Cliff Lee is going to be a very significant postseason factor, then this would be saying that you don't mind leaving the postseason earlier because it's more important that you retain Eduardo Nunez. (In other words, what is increased chance of doing well in the playoffs worth in your calculus?) Plus, naturally, the larger point that many folks would not only rate Montero 5% less valuable than three months of Cliff Lee (to a team that will have an excellent chance to sign him after the season in any case), but actually would rate him more valuable.
I have to admit that I do love the image of the M's continually calling and begging for David Adams, and Cashman demurring that he simply can't afford to part with that kind of prospect, while a voice in his head keeps saying "what the hell do they want this guy for, anyway." Cashman = operator
And that being said, another question I guess could be posed is, does it help the Yankee org for Cashman to get so specific about this stuff...
I thought it was more that Montero will have a chance to win a roster spot in spring training, which probably equates to "we think he should be capable of doing that". I see him splitting the DH time (that isn't devoted to resting A-Rod, Jeter & to a lesser extent Teixeira) with Posada, while doing some catching depending on how much his defense allows. Might need to carry a 3rd catcher, which would probably also require a utility player that can play both infield & outfield.
If the Mariners didn't know about the rapist and an injured player, I doubt they'll find out what Cashman is saying in interviews.
Maybe I’m thick but I still don’t see what the argument here even is. The Yankees appear to have valued the entire package of pluses and minuses of obtaining Lee to be sufficiently high that it was worth parting with Montero, but not sufficiently high that it was worth parting with Montero+some other guy. Obviously, the value of Lee in the postseason is already factored into that equation.
I’m not claiming it was the ‘right’ decision or whatever. I’m just saying that it’s perfectly reasonable to refuse to make a trade of two marquee guys (in one sense or another) because the value of the throw-ins unbalances the deal.
Agreed, but it's also reasonable to wonder if the cost of not making it to the WS is worth Eduardo Nunez which is the fallout Cashman is dealing with and why he's making an attempt to justify himself publically. I'm not saying it's fair, but it's the kind of criticism you deal with as gm of the Yankees.
25 - Well played, Bob, even if she was a Dodgers fan.
I think what #29 is asking is (a) this is unusually specific for a GM isn't it? and (b) how does this make Montero feel? (must make Nunez and Nova feel pretty good) and (c) did he just put more pressure on himself to sign Cliff Lee?
It's one thing for "sources close to the negotiation" to say that Montero and Adams had been agreed to, etc. For Cashman to talk so openly about this strikes me as quite rare. Of course everybody's supposed to be a grownup and he may have already informed Montero's agent during the negotiations so maybe all parties were aware of this.
As to his decision, it depends on whether you believe him in the part where he says they see Nunez as a starting SS and Nova as a decent or better starting pitcher. If he believes that, then (from his perspective) swapping Montero and one of those guys might have been a worse deal than the Randy Johnson for Garcia, Guillen and Halama deal. Wouldn't you rather have the D-Backs side of that one? :-)
the Mariners could really use The Google.
No way dude, they've developed their own proprietary search engine!
That was Houston.
FAIL!
edit: Walt set a trap with his sticky, sticky honey.
Injured second basemen are the new under-valued asset!
It runs on the tears of Mariners fans.
so do I, methinks that, though they won't admit it now, someone in the M's office REALLY REALLY wanted Lueke who reputedly has stunning stuff...
because I gotta tell you if they prefer Smoak v. Montero...
This engine would probably get more mileage running on white-hot rage -- but does anyone in Seattle care that much anymore?
Being almost worth Cliff Lee by yourself is not much of an insult. Plus it was already known he was offered.
Are you kidding? I would have held onto him for his name alone.
Wasn't there egg on someone at Chevrolet's face when they finally discovered why the Nova model wasn't selling in Latin America?
Because the team he has the easiest time beating is, apparently, the Yankees.
Urban legend.
You do get to keep draft picks if you avoid free agency.
Perhaps Pepsi wasn't content to allow Coke to corner the marketing on "our carbonated fructose water can bring the dead back to life" market after Coke fired the first shot in the movie "Mac and Me".
From the My Year of Flops review:
Considering the way Montero hit after the trade fell through, he responded very well.
Could it be the Mariners were "bugging" Cashman about Adams not to get Cashman to include him (which he appeared more than willing to do), but to get him to agree to have the physical done before the trade was finalized? The Mariners' side of this from what I read is that (a) Adams was part of the Yankees' trade proposal, to which (b) they agreed on Thursday "pending exchange of physical information" and that (c) once they learned after the exchange of medical info how badly Adams was hurt, they came back and asked for Nunez or Nova.
Given that Cashman is the guy in the eye of the storm here, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Cashman shaded the truth in just this manner so he could shift the responsibility to the Mariners for the trade being aborted ("hey, don't blame me, we HAD an agreement, I can't help it if they're a bunch of stupid idiots who didn't do their due diligence earlier").
-- MWE
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