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Friday, January 13, 2012

College Football: Postseason Thread

Forsch 10 From Navarone (Dayn) Posted: January 13, 2012 at 08:22 AM | 892 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   401. thok Posted: June 27, 2012 at 07:06 PM (#4168134)
No serious person can believe the committee will pick the right four teams (*) other than by sheer accident.


No serious person can believe that there will truly be a "right four teams" most of the time. There will be somewhere between 1 and maybe 11 correct teams in a given year. The main trick is to get as many correct teams into the tournament as possible. (Actually, the main trick is to expand the tournament to 8 or 16 teams, but that can wait for 10 years while people get used to a playoff. Or people will utterly hate the playoff, and it will go away. But it will probably expand.)

Presumably any suit would have be some breach of contract?? With who, the NCAA?


It's an obvious antitrust suit against the NCAA.
   402. Sunday silence Posted: June 27, 2012 at 07:32 PM (#4168147)
in most years, I dont usually see more than 2 or 3 teams that could rightfully consider themselves the best. Sometimes it gets convoluted but its hard to ever imagine more than say 6. I think most years they should be able to get at least the top 3 correctly into the playoff.


WHen you go 8 teams, and 3 rounds you are seriously upping the injury factor. It's almost a guarantee that someone will lose a lot of money due to career ending injury. The hitting in bowl games as well as regular season games between powerhouses is noticeably different. YOu have to consider that.
   403. zenbitz Posted: June 27, 2012 at 10:54 PM (#4168223)
from which one can only infer that their primary motivating factor, by far, was the money a playoff would generate.


Uh, does this actually need to be inferred?
   404. Every Inge Counts Posted: June 28, 2012 at 01:57 AM (#4168287)
http://smartfootball.com/grab-bag/what-does-or-should-it-mean-to-be-crowned-champion


Any fan of football should be reading this site anyway, but a pretty good article on the whole playoff talk.
   405. Every Inge Counts Posted: June 30, 2012 at 04:38 PM (#4170159)
Might be time to take down that statue....


http://tinyurl.com/88jsnw8


According to Curley's email, Paterno participated more than he ever admitted, including likely talking Curley – and thus the others – out of the plan to turn Sandusky over to authorities.

Take a second for that one to sink in.
   406. Forsch 10 From Navarone (Dayn) Posted: June 30, 2012 at 04:49 PM (#4170169)
Might be time check in on our friends at Black Shoe Diaries ...
   407. Ray (RDP) Posted: June 30, 2012 at 05:10 PM (#4170186)
According to Curley's email, Paterno participated more than he ever admitted, including likely talking Curley – and thus the others – out of the plan to turn Sandusky over to authorities.

Take a second for that one to sink in.


So much for the defense that Paterno did what he was supposed to do by reporting it up the chain, and, well, once that happened his hands were clean and he didn't need to go to the state authorities.

It appears from Curly's email that they had a plan in place to report Sandusky to the state authorities, and "Joe" talked them out of it.

So much, as well, for the notion that Paterno thought it _was_ reported to "state authorities," since the campus police department is a real police department and Schultz was the head of it.

All of these men acted reprehensibly, and are deserving of utter scorn and contempt. Curley, Paterno, Spanier, Schultz. As it is becoming increasingly clear, when faced with the choice of acting to stop child sex abuse before it ever happened again, they chose instead to protect the child rapist, Paterno's image, and the school's image.

These "men" needed to stand up to be counted. They needed to say "No. No. No. Not on our watch. This ends right here."

Extremely regrettably, they did not do so.

McQueary didn't do enough, but at least he acted to push this forward, rather than acting to stop it dead in its tracks.
   408. Forsch 10 From Navarone (Dayn) Posted: June 30, 2012 at 07:55 PM (#4170252)
Agree with pretty much everything you said, Ray. The thought of people continuing to defend "The Program" sickens me. I really hope the "college football coach as god" thing goes away after all this.
   409. Forsch 10 From Navarone (Dayn) Posted: July 01, 2012 at 01:55 AM (#4170406)
Our friends at Black Shoe Diaries have not yet devoted a post to the CNN revelations, but there was one a day or two ago in which a sorta-kinda self-aware writer talked about the need to completely sever ties with Penn State's past. Here's a pretty rich post in response to that:



Are you done whining yet. Really. Go get counseling – might do you some good.

I for one did not molest anyone. Nor did you I suspect. Nor did most of half million Penn Staters (remember ‘We Are’?). So stop with the apologies on behalf of all of us, and stop pontificating as if you know how WE ALL feel.

Seriously, you’re attitude is one of sympathetic guilt over what a sexual predator did. If you feel that strongly about it, dedicate time, money and effort to the cause of victims. Make the world a better place for your angst – I, for one, felt better in the weeks following that POS’s arrest last year by dedicating a few bucks to RAINN…might do you some good too, if you haven’t done so already.

That all said – I come here for football news, and the occasional hoops post by Eric. Not to listen to you go on and on and on about how bad things are. We are ####### Penn State. And that criminal POS will never take that away from me, or anyone who’s good and decent and associated in ways big and small w/ the university.

So…stop regurgitating your conscience on here and move on, please. Thanks. And get better soon.

The Lion Roars No More (1926-2012)

by pennst92 on Jun 28, 2012 7:46 AM EDT reply 6 recs
   410. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: July 01, 2012 at 08:46 AM (#4170428)
Has any6one checked on Posnanski lately? I presume it's tough to type while curled up into a fetal position.
   411. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: July 01, 2012 at 11:05 AM (#4170455)
Might be time check in on our friends at Black Shoe Diaries ...

One of their primary articles responding to the new email news concluded "the false attacks on Joe and PSU continue."

its a damn shame.
   412. CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck Posted: July 01, 2012 at 01:27 PM (#4170531)

Has any6one checked on Posnanski lately? I presume it's tough to type while curled up into a fetal position.


He tweeted that he wouldn't comment on the Paterno revelations because it wasn't "my place now." He promised all of it "and more" would be in his book.

There's an awful lot of Posnanski's reputation riding on that book.
   413. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 01, 2012 at 01:46 PM (#4170546)
There's an awful lot of Posnanski's reputation riding on that book.


I've seen more than enough from him to make firm conclusions about where I think his reputation stands.

If he suddenly gets religion in his book and calls these men including Paterno out for what they were -- people who were contemptible in that they were more concerned about a football coach and program than stopping a child sex abuser -- I'll be happy to acknowledge that he finally came around, and will give him credit for that. But it will never erase his scornful behavior at the outset of this scandal, making absurd arguments and lying about the facts as he did - and continuing now several months later not to explain where he stands now.
   414. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 10:30 AM (#4180871)
Freeh Report

"Curley emails Spanier and Schultz, discussing Sandusky's retirement options: "Joe did give him the option to continue to coach as long as he was the coach."


Live Blog: Washington Post

At the press conference, Freeh reiterates again and again that top Penn State officials showed no concern for the safety and welfare of Sandusky’s victims. They didn’t even talk to Sandusky about it. “In short, nothing was done and Sandusky was allowed to continue with impunity,” Freeh said.

Freeh said that Paterno received a report from a younger coach that Sandusky had behaved inappropriately with a young boy in a locker room shower, but delayed passing along the information because he did not “want to interfere” with people’s weekend plans. At no time did the officials try to identify the boy, Freeh said.


Dan Wetzel: Freeh Report assigns blame to Joe Paterno, other Penn State officials for Jerry Sandusky's crimes

The Freeh Report concluded that, as many had assumed, Paterno (as well as other administrators) was aware of a 1998 criminal investigation on allegations that Sandusky abused a boy in Penn State locker room showers. While the local district attorney did not prosecute, the Freeh Group condemned Paterno and the others for not setting up further precautions against Sandusky's behavior.
It concluded that Spanier, vice president Gary Schultz and athletic director Tim Curley also knew and did nothing.
   415. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:53 AM (#4180944)
The Freeh Report concluded that, as many had assumed, Paterno (as well as other administrators) was aware of a 1998 criminal investigation on allegations that Sandusky abused a boy in Penn State locker room showers. While the local district attorney did not prosecute, the Freeh Group condemned Paterno and the others for not setting up further precautions against Sandusky's behavior.

It concluded that Spanier, vice president Gary Schultz and athletic director Tim Curley also knew and did nothing.


Early indications from this report are that as the facts come in, the chips are falling as suspected. Much of this is a connect the dots kind of thing, where 2+2+2+2 = 8 and not much else. Sandusky's abrupt resignation at a young age does in fact turn out to be linked to the 1998 incident, which in turn means that the 2001 shower incident that McQueary reported does not come in isolation and Paterno was aware who he had on his hands, etc etc etc.

Paterno, Spanier, Curley, and Schultz were into this up to their eyeballs. And for what? To protect images of fairy tales? It wasn't their fault that Sandusky was a child rapist. But it became their fault that he was allowed to continue unfettered and enabled for so long.
   416. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 12, 2012 at 01:42 PM (#4181074)
Penn State shouldn't be playing football in 2012. The activity is a corrupting and iniquitous influence on their university and other universities they would come in contact with.

If they won't do it themselves, the Big Ten or NCAA should do it for them.

A university president -- a man of letters -- letting a glorified gym teacher and confirmed pedophile run free, all for the glorification of the Phys. Ed. department and a bunch of weird cultist fans.

What.

The.

####.

We've lost our way. Terribly.
   417. Forsch 10 From Navarone (Dayn) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 02:46 PM (#4181156)
Agree wholeheartedly, SBB. I have no idea how any self-respecting alumnus could show up at one of their games this season.
   418. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 02:46 PM (#4181157)
A glorified gym teacher is exactly what he was, and what these coaches are. Except that money is involved.

But so much for Paterno simply "doing nothing." It appears he was active in the coverup. So far the worst suspicions are in fact being confirmed.

God only knows what is now being said at the black shoe diaries site.

I wonder if Posnanski thinks it might be time now to comment again?
   419. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 02:47 PM (#4181158)
Yes. The football season/program should be canceled. Although I read last week that the school is swimming in donations - some of it because of this as a misguided "show of support" - so doubtful that happens any time soon.
   420. Forsch 10 From Navarone (Dayn) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 02:59 PM (#4181177)
This is very PRK of them.
   421. SoSH U at work Posted: July 12, 2012 at 03:03 PM (#4181187)
This is very PRK of them.


I bet it worked. I'm sure those kids never did find out what was in the report.

   422. PeteF3 Posted: July 12, 2012 at 03:05 PM (#4181191)
Sandusky's abrupt resignation at a young age does in fact turn out to be linked to the 1998 incident,


Actually the Freeh Report specifically says that there's no evidence that this is the case. Sandusky's resignation was linked to Paterno telling him that he wasn't going to be Head Coach anytime soon, and that conversation took place before the 1998 shower incident.
   423. Lassus Posted: July 12, 2012 at 03:12 PM (#4181199)
Except for the backhand to gym teachers (a lot of people would probably be a lot fatter if not for my parents' long careers), I agree fully with what Ray has written here.
   424. stanmvp48 Posted: July 12, 2012 at 03:18 PM (#4181207)
What does PRK mean?
   425. JJ1986 Posted: July 12, 2012 at 03:21 PM (#4181208)
What does PRK mean?


People's Republic of Korea (North Korea).
   426. Chicago Joe Posted: July 12, 2012 at 03:26 PM (#4181211)
What does PRK mean?

People Raping Ki---er, what JJ said.
   427. Moloka'i Three-Finger Brown (Declino DeShields) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 03:32 PM (#4181215)
I wonder if Posnanski thinks it might be time now to comment again?


He tweeted something the other day to the effect that he'll do his speaking in the book (which, he vaguely suggested, will have the whole story).
   428. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: July 12, 2012 at 03:34 PM (#4181216)
This is very PRK of them.


That is pretty sneaky, but there's probably nobody on campus in the summer anyway, right?
   429. Mayor Blomberg Posted: July 12, 2012 at 04:01 PM (#4181234)
(which, he vaguely suggested, will have the whole story)


I think Freeh scooped him.
   430. DA Baracus Posted: July 12, 2012 at 04:01 PM (#4181236)
Agree wholeheartedly, SBB. I have no idea how any self-respecting alumnus could show up at one of their games this season.


They'll sell out every game. If you're on Twitter, #WeAre is a cesspool of idiocy today.
   431. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 12, 2012 at 04:10 PM (#4181240)
as i have stated in the lounge despite being a former player of many years past and a contributing alum to the universit of wisconsin i am ok with college football, not just penn state football, going away. between the health hazards and the ridiculously poor decision-making the springs out of folks with misaligned priorities i think if someone said 'enough' and had it go away for a while that maybe just maybe folks would regain some sense of balance

that's my story and i'm sticking to it.
   432. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 04:28 PM (#4181249)
Actually the Freeh Report specifically says that there's no evidence that this is the case. Sandusky's resignation was linked to Paterno telling him that he wasn't going to be Head Coach anytime soon, and that conversation took place before the 1998 shower incident.


Fair enough. I retract that comment; I suspect one of the news accounts I read made a connection.

I plan to read the full Freeh report but haven't had time yet.

---

as i have stated in the lounge despite being a former player of many years past and a contributing alum to the universit of wisconsin i am ok with college football, not just penn state football, going away. between the health hazards and the ridiculously poor decision-making the springs out of folks with misaligned priorities i think if someone said 'enough' and had it go away for a while that maybe just maybe folks would regain some sense of balance

that's my story and i'm sticking to it.


I agree that college football, as currently constructed, is a mess. But as we know, given all of the money involved, nothing will change any time soon.
   433. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 12, 2012 at 04:30 PM (#4181251)
as i have stated in the lounge despite being a former player of many years past and a contributing alum to the universit of wisconsin i am ok with college football, not just penn state football, going away. between the health hazards and the ridiculously poor decision-making the springs out of folks with misaligned priorities i think if someone said 'enough' and had it go away for a while that maybe just maybe folks would regain some sense of balance

Well put. As gutless as Paterno turned out to be, I can't help but believe that the money and media exposure in college football got so big that it contributed mightily to his ultimate corruption. Before Nike, ESPN, the internet, luxury suites in college stadiums, and all the rest (*) -- in, say, 1975 -- I can't see Spanier and Paterno so utterly losing their way. If they were in the same postions at Columbia or Dartmouth, there's absolutely no way they do what they did.

That should be Poz's angle to try to salvage his Paterno work.

(*) The Supreme Court royally ###### up in 1984 when it overturned the entirely rational NCAA football TV broadcast limits and structure.
   434. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 12, 2012 at 04:37 PM (#4181256)
and to be clear i am putting my money where my mouth is if you will. i told the university that university contributions will now cease for the football program and i have told my kids that if they want the badger football tickets renewed it will have to come out of their pockets.

i am not picketing the athletic director's office. but i am gravely concerned.

more money for the engineering program. the wife can fuss with the liberal arts program (gag)
   435. Joey B. "disrespects the A" Posted: July 12, 2012 at 04:39 PM (#4181259)
Agree wholeheartedly, SBB. I have no idea how any self-respecting alumnus could show up at one of their games this season.

You would think, right? But if the (small number of) people I know connected to Penn State are anything at all like a general indication of that community, they have barely even started to seriously come to grips with what what happened there. The level of denial I still see in these people blows my mind.

EDIT: I just saw the story linked to in #420, and it is a perfect indicator of just what I'm talking about.
   436. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 04:41 PM (#4181260)
He tweeted something the other day to the effect that he'll do his speaking in the book


Maybe the abysmal comments he made at the outset were just part of a Master Plan to get people to buy his book to see whether he will start to sound more reasonable or whether he will continue to shred his reputation.
   437. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 04:50 PM (#4181266)
Nike is cutting one of its last remaining ties to Joe Paterno -- removing his name from the child care building on the corporation's campus.


Remember, it's not only that Paterno was a football coach. He also would lend his name to programs such that buildings were named after him. Such as this one. "The Joe Paterno Child Development Center."

Even the peripheral aspects of this are absurd.
   438. Fanshawe Posted: July 12, 2012 at 04:59 PM (#4181272)
You would think, right? But if the (small number of) people I know connected to Penn State are anything at all like a general indication of that community, they have barely even stated to seriously come to grips with what what happened there. The level of denial I still see in these people blows my mind.


I'm a PSU alum (graduated in 2004) and I can't imagine going to or watching a football game anytime soon. I've given money to academics every year since I've graduated (never to football) and I haven't decided whether that will continue. So I'm not an unbiased party here, I guess, but I can kind of understand why people are acting weird about it. I went to Penn State for coincidental and almost accidental reasons, and if Paterno et al had done the right thing and fully reported the 1998 crimes I almost certainly would have gone to a different school, and I would have had different friends, and I would never have met my wife, etc. Many parts of my life that make me happy exist solely or substantially because I went to Penn State and it's kind of upsetting to know that my happiness comes at the expense of many of those victims. I know that makes me, like, the 800,000th most aggrieved person in all this, but it still makes me upset. And if I hadn't really thought about it that hard, or was more invested in the school, maybe I'd be one of those people making posts about being a proud Penn Stater for life, and saying we should judge Paterno by his life and not by his mistakes, or whatever. I think some of them will come around.
   439. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 12, 2012 at 05:01 PM (#4181273)
I think Jason Whitlock's column on PSU and college athletics is a good response:
I just know SMU’s death penalty didn’t slow under-the-table recruiting. What it did was make the reward for pretending to have integrity greater. The Pony Express begat Paterno State. Penn State self-righteously chanted “We Are!” and donated record sums of cash because its football-crazed alums and fan base fell for the myth that Joe Paterno had more integrity than his peers.

He didn’t. He never did.

Well, the latter might not be true. Maybe he did. But big-time college athletics could pervert Mother Teresa. Football and men’s and women’s basketball are so far removed from the alleged goals of college athletics and so invested in the lie of amateurism that it’s impossible for any of their long-term participants to retain the integrity they brought to the games.

A good man can live a lie for only so long before he becomes just a man. That, I suspect, is what happened to Joe Paterno. There was so much money tied to Penn State football that it was easy for Paterno and the Penn State administrators to choose protecting Sandusky over protecting children.
   440. Nasty Nate Posted: July 12, 2012 at 05:06 PM (#4181277)
...if Paterno et al had done the right thing and fully reported the 1998 crimes I almost certainly would have gone to a different school,


Out of curiosity .... why?
   441. jobu Posted: July 12, 2012 at 05:08 PM (#4181278)
a glorified gym teacher and confirmed pedophile

Even more peripheral and absurd than the Joe Paterno Center for Kids who Can't Read Good....

Arguably more unreadable at this point than the Joe Posnanski book is the children's book "The Gym Teacher from the Black Lagoon."

I'll spoil the plot for you. The book is part of a series of "from the Black Lagoon" books where a child is fearful of an authority figure, who ultimately turns out to be a nice person. A new teacher, a librarian, etc. In the "Gym Teacher" volume, the gym teacher is a monster wearing a t-shirt labeled "State Penn," and he torments the children (albeit non-sexually). At the book's denouement, the scales fall from the eyes of the child narrator, who ultimately realizes that the monstrous gym teacher is actually a normal-looking, friendly-to-children guy. Wearing a "Penn State" t-shirt. Sort of like Leland Palmer/Killer Bob, but for the children's set.

Trailer for the video version of the book is here. Unfortunately, no screen cap of the "Penn State" t-shirt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZVLP5em6So
   442. Fanshawe Posted: July 12, 2012 at 05:21 PM (#4181289)
Out of curiosity .... why?


I was an out-of-state student, and only visited the school because couple of my friends and I were invited to some recruiting event and we thought it would be fun to go on a road-trip pretty much, and, "well it was a respected school so who knows." We went, I really liked the school, and I ended up going there (one of the other guys did too). None of us knew anything about PSU at the time other than it was ranked fairly well in the U.S. News reports. College football wasn't a big deal where I grew up so I didn't really care about that (I didn't bother pre-buying season tickets for my freshman year because I didn't think it was that big a deal. Oops.). If the only thing I knew about PSU was that they had just fired their child-raping football coach, I don't think we would have even taken the invitations seriously. We probably would have made some unfortunate jokes and then visited Syracuse or something. Granted, this is me trying to mind-read my 17-year-old self, so take it for what it's worth.
   443. Andere Richtingen Posted: July 12, 2012 at 05:21 PM (#4181290)
the wife can fuss with the liberal arts program (gag)

Just like... Joe Paterno.
   444. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 05:24 PM (#4181295)
I went to Penn State for coincidental and almost accidental reasons, and if Paterno et al had done the right thing and fully reported the 1998 crimes


I can't get on Paterno for the 1998 thing, as far as I understand it. It was fully investigated and unless Paterno actually pulled strings to thwart any potential indictment (for which I have seen no evidence) then the 1998 thing in isolation is not at all on him.

It is what he did AFTER -- and did not do -- that he gets condemned for.
   445. zenbitz Posted: July 12, 2012 at 05:26 PM (#4181296)
College Football is too big to fail. However, if the NCAA doesn't hand Penn State a death sentence, I think it's the end of _NCAA_ college football and the beginning of "minor league college-associated pro football".
   446. Andere Richtingen Posted: July 12, 2012 at 05:28 PM (#4181299)
The fact that Joe Paterno remained the head coach for 13 years after Sandusky resigned is all you need to know with regard to Paterno telling him he wasn't going to be head coach. The last thing 72 year-old Paterno wanted was someone waiting in the wings when he had no plans to leave the stage. I do not discount the possibility that suspicion and rumor about Sandusky didn't play a role, but there is no reason to assume it.
   447. Eddo Posted: July 12, 2012 at 05:34 PM (#4181301)
If the only thing I knew about PSU was that they had just fired their child-raping football coach, I don't think we would have even taken the invitations seriously.

I wouldn't beat yourself up or feel conflicted. If you weren't following college football at the time, to the point where you weren't even aware you should get season tickets as a freshman, I doubt the resignation/firing of an assistant coach would have been on your radar.
   448. Fanshawe Posted: July 12, 2012 at 05:35 PM (#4181305)
I can't get on Paterno for the 1998 thing, as far as I understand it. It was fully investigated and unless Paterno actually pulled strings to thwart any potential indictment (for which I have seen no evidence) then the 1998 thing in isolation is not at all on him.

It is what he did AFTER -- and did not do -- that he gets condemned for.


I don't claim to have a complete understanding of the report, but from what I can tell, the aministration was, at best, extremely unhelpful with the 1998 investigation, or laughably blind to the events, and futher coddled Sandusky as early as 1999 (Here's a link, I know deadspin isn't everyone's favorite site around here but they've been pretty solid on this).
   449. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 12, 2012 at 05:37 PM (#4181307)
andere

i am going to give post 443 a pass and not engage you on this topic

as i have said my piece on psu you will have no reason to respond to my posts since there will not be any more on the topic

and yes, i am offended you managed to somehow lump my wife together with that individual. i am seeing red right now.

if that was your goal then you were not the poster i thought

good day
   450. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 12, 2012 at 05:50 PM (#4181310)
The fact that Joe Paterno remained the head coach for 13 years after Sandusky resigned is all you need to know with regard to Paterno telling him he wasn't going to be head coach. The last thing 72 year-old Paterno wanted was someone waiting in the wings when he had no plans to leave the stage. I do not discount the possibility that suspicion and rumor about Sandusky didn't play a role, but there is no reason to assume it.


Except that isn't what happened. The known child molester was given the option by Paterno and Penn State of coaching for as long as he wanted to coach.(*)

See, everyone was thinking Sandusky was forced out because Penn State and Paterno knew he was a child molester because ... well, because you fire known child molesters.(**) But to Paterno and Penn State, the fact that Sandusky was a known child molester merely disqualified him from ever being the head coach.

(*) Contemporaneous email, Schultz to Curley and Spanier.

(**) And that's why the Freeh Report was unable to find evidence that Sandusky was forced out because he was a known child molester -- he wasn't.
   451. Andere Richtingen Posted: July 12, 2012 at 06:59 PM (#4181335)
That's all fine and good sugar bear, and completely irrelevant to my point.

Harveys, I should have known not to make that joke, but do you seriously think that was a poke at your wife? Seems like it was pretty obviously a riff on your liberal arts snark. Which it was.
   452. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: July 12, 2012 at 07:09 PM (#4181342)
Just catching up on this, but the bottom line, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that the 4 honchos at Penn State covered up over a decade of child rape to protect the reputation of the school and, more importantly, the football program. I think that's it for me and college football. We've past the point of insanity. We may need to look at the model the rest of the world uses for athletics--if you want to play a sport or support one, you join a club created for that specific purpose. Lets just end the BS already.
   453. Forsch 10 From Navarone (Dayn) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 07:38 PM (#4181354)
I think I'm with you, Shooty. The thing that bothers me is that this could happen at any number of big-time programs. Obviously, I don't think Alabama/Ohio State/USC/LSU/Texas/Florida/whatever are harboring child rapists, but the cult-like insularity and utter lack of any sense of proportion is there. Paying even passing attention to, say, signing day makes me feel like I need a shower, and now it's all just becoming too much.
   454. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 07:43 PM (#4181357)
I think I'm with you, Shooty. The thing that bothers me is that this could happen at any number of big-time programs. Obviously, I don't think Alabama/Ohio State/USC/LSU/Texas/Florida/whatever are harboring child rapists, but the cult-like insularity and utter lack of any sense of proportion is there. Paying even passing attention to, say, signing day makes me feel like I need a shower, and now it's all just becoming too much.


I think you guys are being too hard on Paterno and his program. Yes, Paterno covered up and enabled child abuse and rape, but at least he wasn't letting proamateur athletes get paid under the table for their work! Not on his watch! No sir!

   455. Forsch 10 From Navarone (Dayn) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 07:46 PM (#4181359)
Well, I think we can agree that greedy agents are the real problem here.
   456. DA Baracus Posted: July 12, 2012 at 07:48 PM (#4181361)
I think you guys are being too hard on Paterno and his program. Yes, Paterno covered up and enabled child abuse and rape, but at least he wasn't letting proamateur athletes get paid under the table for their work! Not on his watch! No sir!


I only care about how many players he oversigned.
   457. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: July 12, 2012 at 07:55 PM (#4181368)
I'm a UNC alum, and right now they're in the middle of scandal #2, in which it turns out that one professor was running a bunch of no-show classes that seem to have been primarily for football players. This comes on the heels of the scandal of the last couple of years, that was the usual mishmash of improper benefits, contact with agents, a tutor committing academic fraud, and general "lack of institutional control". The whole thing is terrible. UNC is a good school, consistently in the US News top 30, and one of the top 5-6 publics on the list. It's been very honorable too -- UNC started a program to allow poor kids to get through school with no debt before the debut of similar programs at some far-richer Ivy League schools, and Kiplingers has rated it the best value in higher education for 11 years in a row. That I think is just about the highest sort of honor a university can aspire to. And yet, because of ####### football, to lots of people it's now just a school for cheaters and frauds. ####### football.

Obviously this isn't anything like as bad as Penn State, but it's another symptom of the same general rot.
   458. rr Posted: July 12, 2012 at 08:11 PM (#4181376)
PSU alum Michael Weinreb on Grantland:

Last November, as the worst month in my alma mater's history unfolded, a Penn State medical-school researcher named Craig Meyers went on the radio to detail a remarkable scientific discovery: He had discovered a potential cure for cancer. It went largely unnoticed, because Craig Meyers is a scientist and because no one associated with Penn State gave a good ####### about science in that moment, because they were enveloped by football.

That's what we are left with now that former FBI director Louis Freeh's damning independent report on Penn State has been released: It is everything the lawyers and flacks and message-board apologists assured us it wasn't. It is a football scandal, it is a Penn State scandal, and it is a fundamental violation of the very Grand Experiment — of the balance between academics and athletics, of the notion that football can elevate a university rather than weigh it down, of the idea that men like Craig Meyers benefit from men like Joe Paterno — that the school had espoused since the 1960s.


http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8160271/joe-paterno-legacy-penn-state-aftermath-freeh-report
   459. Zipperholes Posted: July 12, 2012 at 08:15 PM (#4181378)
It's amazing how people have all the answers when others' flaws are exposed.
   460. madvillain Posted: July 12, 2012 at 08:32 PM (#4181389)

It's amazing how people have all the answers when others' flaws are exposed.


Joe Paterno covered up for a child rapist, repeatedly. I'm not exactly mother Teresa, but at least I haven't knowingly enabled child sexual abuse. The facts aren't kind to JoePa, why should we be?
   461. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 12, 2012 at 08:34 PM (#4181390)
Weinreb endorses a deemphasis or suspension of the football program, if necessary to preserve the university's integrity. It plainly is.

   462. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 08:34 PM (#4181391)
It's amazing how people have all the answers when others' flaws are exposed.


"Don't cover up child sex abuse" is not exactly an "answer" that requires genius level thinking.
   463. booond Posted: July 12, 2012 at 09:24 PM (#4181415)
It's amazing how people have all the answers when others' flaws are exposed.


This isn't a flaw. Being in-decisive is a flaw. Suffering from self-doubt is a flaw. Having a big ego is a flaw.

Paterno and the others conspired to keep a pedophile out of jail for their own benefit. They did it so they could continue to make money. This is as bad as humanity gets. They knowingly allowed a child rapist to continue raping so that their football team wouldn't get bad publicity.

And we don't know how long Paterno knew. The report only starts in 1998. How many years did he cover for Sandusky? How many years did he look the other way so that he could win football games?

The football program should go away.

   464. Forsch 10 From Navarone (Dayn) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 09:26 PM (#4181417)
It's amazing how people have all the answers when others' flaws are exposed.


Black Shoe Diaries, is that you?
   465. Esoteric Posted: July 12, 2012 at 09:33 PM (#4181419)
Paterno and the others conspired to keep a pedophile out of jail for their own benefit. They did it so they could continue to make money. This is as bad as humanity gets. They knowingly allowed a child rapist to continue raping so that their football team wouldn't get bad publicity.
Can't really boil it down to its core any more than this.
   466. Gaelan Posted: July 12, 2012 at 09:35 PM (#4181420)
Faculty don't have very much opportunity for job mobility but I don't know how they can go on serving the University. This isn't an ordinary job. You can't just show up, do your work, and go home. It would be completely demoralizing. Only a complete cleansing can restore the honour of the institution. Without it everything that comes from the university is suspect.
   467. Zipperholes Posted: July 12, 2012 at 09:46 PM (#4181429)
My point is, I hear a lot of talking, and not much listening. That goes for all of the issues we're currently facing. Instead of anointing ourselves experts who know exactly how to deal with something as terrible and complex as this, I think we'd be well-served to learn and listen.
   468. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: July 12, 2012 at 09:46 PM (#4181430)
It's amazing how people have all the answers when others' flaws are exposed.

#### off troll.
   469. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: July 12, 2012 at 09:47 PM (#4181431)
I think we'd be well-served to learn and listen.

Give me a ####### break. Now is the time for a heap of moral outrage. You are ridiculous.
   470. Tripon Posted: July 12, 2012 at 09:53 PM (#4181434)
To learn and listen to what? How to cover up what a pedophile did for decades?
   471. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 09:56 PM (#4181435)

From the Deadspin account of the Freeh report:

• Sandusky requested a title to associate himself with Penn State. Paterno wrote "no," but along the sidebar, "Volunteer Position Director – Positive Action for Youth."


FACEPALM. JoePa is trolling us.


My point is, I hear a lot of talking, and not much listening.


Listening to what exactly?
   472. smileyy Posted: July 12, 2012 at 10:01 PM (#4181437)
[467] I think a lot of the posters here listened to the Freeh report and are, in fact, reacting accordingly and appropriately.

OTOH, maybe you're the type who are waiting for your Officially Recognized Betters to tell you how to think and feel. In which case, you might want to invest in some irony recognition.

(Hint: children got raped because Offically Recognized Betters told others that it wasn't a big deal)
   473. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 10:01 PM (#4181438)
My point is, I hear a lot of talking, and not much listening. That goes for all of the issues we're currently facing. Instead of anointing ourselves experts who know exactly how to deal with something as terrible and complex as this, I think we'd be well-served to learn and listen.


How to "deal with" credible accounts of a child sex abuser? I wasn't expecting Paterno and Spanier to personally slap the cuffs on Sandusky. I was expecting them to report him to the state authorities. How hard and "complex" is that, exactly?

But of course they went much further than simply "did not report it." They actively conspired to cover it up. Because that was the "humane" thing to do, after all. And in so doing a number of other children got to live "Touched: The Jerry Sandusky Story." What are you arguing, exactly?
   474. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 12, 2012 at 10:02 PM (#4181439)
zipper

this is not 2 days into the revelation. this matter has been highly scrutinized
   475. Zipperholes Posted: July 12, 2012 at 10:06 PM (#4181440)
To learn and listen to what? How to cover up what a pedophile did for decades?
What was the mindset that caused this to happen, fundamentally? Is it unique to Penn State? Is it unique to major college football? Is it unique to organizations that have a huge figurehead like Paterno? Is it a mindset that's endemic to all different types of organizations, including corporations and religious groups? Is it becoming more prevalent in modern times? If so, why? At what stage of life do people start adopting this mentality? What role can the perpetrators play in helping us figure this out? What do they have to say? What do the victims have to say?

I'd love to know all these things. I don't have the answers.
   476. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: July 12, 2012 at 10:09 PM (#4181442)
What was the mindset that caused this to happen, fundamentally? Is it unique to Penn State? Is it unique to major college football? Is it unique to organizations that have a huge figurehead like Paterno? Is it a mindset that's endemic to all different types of organizations, including corporations and religious groups? Is it becoming more prevalent in modern times? If so, why? At what stage of life do people start adopting this mentality? What role can the perpetrators play in helping us figure this out? What do they have to say? What do the victims have to say?


These are all very good questions.

Nevertheless, the guilty should be punished.
   477. Zipperholes Posted: July 12, 2012 at 10:11 PM (#4181444)
I think a lot of the posters here listened to the Freeh report and are, in fact, reacting accordingly and appropriately.
Yeah, it's perfectly normal and reasonable to react to this, and to do so emotionally. My focus is on the idea that we really know why this happened, fundamentally, and that we know the best way to deal with it.
   478. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 12, 2012 at 10:18 PM (#4181454)
zipper

don't make folks out here to be children as you ask the profound questions

i hate that oprah crap

   479. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 10:20 PM (#4181455)
The Supreme Court royally ###### up in 1984 when it overturned the entirely rational NCAA football TV broadcast limits and structure.


Interesting take. Do you think the opinion was wrong? Do you mean it is regrettable given the explosion of $$$ associated with college football? Perhaps I need to reread, but my impression was this was a slam dunk, and am certainly happy with what it gave us (fans) over the years. What we had to do to follow our favorite teams pre NCAA v OU was really a giant pain in the ass. Call long distance back to Omaha, phone by the radio, audio taping of games and receiving in the mail 4 days later. It sucked. You'd see your team twice a year, maybe 3 teams tops on TV.

The case if I recall was 7-2, with Stevens writing the majority, and Byron Whizzer White (a former All American football player at Colorado) wrote the dissent with Rehnquist. Easterbrook represented OU and Georgia.

Frankly, I think the proliferation of games on TV was inevitable (in retrospect of course) as I would imagine the NCAA couldn't resist expanding TV rights had they won.
   480. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 10:25 PM (#4181460)
What was the mindset that caused this to happen, fundamentally? Is it unique to Penn State? Is it unique to major college football? Is it unique to organizations that have a huge figurehead like Paterno? Is it a mindset that's endemic to all different types of organizations, including corporations and religious groups? Is it becoming more prevalent in modern times? If so, why? At what stage of life do people start adopting this mentality? What role can the perpetrators play in helping us figure this out? What do they have to say? What do the victims have to say?


These are all great questions and we have plenty of time to go over them, but I think in the immediate aftermath of the Freeh Report, outrage and condemnation is probably an appropriate response.
   481. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: July 12, 2012 at 10:27 PM (#4181463)
   482. Andere Richtingen Posted: July 12, 2012 at 10:31 PM (#4181467)
Just so everyone knows, Penn State faculty, especially those who are finding potential cures for cancer, are doing just fine thank you very much. There has definitely been an effect on morale, which I have seen mostly among the undergraduates. Teaching during the fall semester was really difficult. Students were all walking around looking like someone had shot their dog. And Paterno's death in January hit very hard. It's been weird, and it has definitely set a tone, but it has had very little effect on my day to day life, and very little effect on the day to day lives of most of my friends and colleagues associated with the university. A couple of people I know seem obsessed with it, but these are people who seem easily distracted. I still spend my days doing research, teaching, going to various sorts of meetings, and coming home to my family every day. The general budgetary problems we face (not nearly as bad here as in most of the country) are a far bigger concern. There will be some changes around here in the wake of Sandusky, some of them annoying, ineffectual bureaucratic nonsense, but I am optimistic that there is now some light shed on the provinciality of this place and that there will be some positive changes as well. I haven't read the entire Freeh Report but most of what I have seen seems spot on, and of course the university administration is embracing it because what the hell else are they going to do. I can also say that my friends and colleagues here are expressing far more wisdom and nuanced thinking about issues of child abuse in society in the wake of this horrible situation than I am seeing from outsiders. Far more than most of what I am reading here at BTF, that's for sure.
   483. Lassus Posted: July 12, 2012 at 10:40 PM (#4181477)
I can also say that my friends and colleagues here are expressing far more wisdom and nuanced thinking about issues of child abuse in society in the wake of this horrible situation than I am seeing from outsiders. Far more than most of what I am reading here at BTF, that's for sure.

Such as?
   484. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 10:56 PM (#4181486)
Such as?


I echo Lassus's question. Such as what, exactly?

This was a damned straight easy case which didn't require a lot of "nuance" or "wisdom."
   485. greenback calls it soccer Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:39 PM (#4181498)
Such as?

Penn State should have its kids taken away?
   486. smileyy Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:42 PM (#4181500)
My focus is on the idea that we really know why this happened, fundamentally, and that we know the best way to deal with it.


You seem to be missing the discussion that's happening on this very thread, asking those very questions.
   487. Mayor Blomberg Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:43 PM (#4181503)
What was the mindset that caused this to happen, fundamentally? Protect the brand. "All the other important stuff we do that would go by the wayside" is a rationalization.
Is it unique to Penn State? of course not.
Is it unique to major college football? of course not.
Is it unique to organizations that have a huge figurehead like Paterno? Nope.
Is it a mindset that's endemic to all different types of organizations, including corporations and religious groups? Dingdingding, winner!
Is it becoming more prevalent in modern times? If so, why? No, but it's being more widely reported.
At what stage of life do people start adopting this mentality? Which? Pedophilia? Take an abnormal psych class.
What role can the perpetrators play in helping us figure this out? What do they have to say? Apparently, "I didn't do it."
What do the victims have to say? Those who wanted to speak have spoken. The Church has a list of people who have told their stories.

there, happy?
   488. The District Attorney Posted: July 13, 2012 at 12:16 AM (#4181520)
Bill James, from his mailbag:
The Freeh reports states quite explicitly and at least six times (a) that the 1998 incident did NOT involve any criminal conduct--on the part of Sandusky or anyone else--and (b) that Paterno had forced the resignation of Sandusky before the 1998 incident occurred.

The 1998 incident was perceived AT THE TIME to involve no criminal conduct. The May 3, 1998 incident was very, very, very thoroughly investigated by at least four different agencies (University police, state police, and two different child welfare agencies), all four of which issued written reports stating that no criminal event had occurred. In retrospect, since the actions were part of a pattern of criminal conduct, it may be said that they were criminal conduct in and of themselves, but no one saw that at the time.

In any case, what EXACTLY is it that Paterno should have done? Fire him again? It is preposterous to argue, in my view, that PATERNO should have taken action after all of the people who were legally charged to take action had thoroughly examined the case and decided that no action was appropriate.
   489. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 13, 2012 at 12:34 AM (#4181530)
In retrospect, since the actions were part of a pattern of criminal conduct, it may be said that they were criminal conduct in and of themselves, but no one saw that at the time.


Actually, no. The fact that an investigation was closed does not necessarily mean that no one "saw" criminal conduct. They might have simply thought that there wasn't enough evidence to try him. Despite what prosecutors in the Clemens case did, you do not go to trial every time you have "some" evidence of criminality.

In any case, what EXACTLY is it that Paterno should have done? Fire him again? It is preposterous to argue, in my view, that PATERNO should have taken action after all of the people who were legally charged to take action had thoroughly examined the case and decided that no action was appropriate.


Again, my problem is not with what Paterno did in 1998. It's not 1998 in isolation (presuming that is all Paterno knew). My problem is not informing authorities at least in 2001 when a visibly shaken Mike McQueary comes to your freaking home on a Saturday to report an eye witness account of something "of a sexual nature" that happened the night before in your shower facility. You know there was smoke in 1998, and yet you STILL do nothing in 2001. (And, of course, Paterno didn't merely "do nothing" in 2001; he actively covered it up.)
   490. madvillain Posted: July 13, 2012 at 12:49 AM (#4181534)
What was the mindset that caused this to happen, fundamentally? Is it unique to Penn State? Is it unique to major college football? Is it unique to organizations that have a huge figurehead like Paterno? Is it a mindset that's endemic to all different types of organizations, including corporations and religious groups? Is it becoming more prevalent in modern times? If so, why? At what stage of life do people start adopting this mentality? What role can the perpetrators play in helping us figure this out? What do they have to say? What do the victims have to say?

I'd love to know all these things. I don't have the answers.


Hannah Arendt's excellent "Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil" is a good place to start. Seriously.

Institutional pressure exists everywhere, and while PSU is a far cry from Nazi Germany, the conspiracy at the top levels of PSU leadership, with their "humane" coarse of action, is digging at the heart of Arendt's conclusions about what allows such things to happen.
   491. Squash Posted: July 13, 2012 at 01:57 AM (#4181549)
What was the mindset that caused this to happen, fundamentally? Protect the brand. "All the other important stuff we do that would go by the wayside" is a rationalization.
Is it unique to Penn State? of course not.
Is it unique to major college football? of course not.
Is it unique to organizations that have a huge figurehead like Paterno? Nope.
Is it a mindset that's endemic to all different types of organizations, including corporations and religious groups? Dingdingding, winner!
Is it becoming more prevalent in modern times? If so, why? No, but it's being more widely reported.
At what stage of life do people start adopting this mentality? Which? Pedophilia? Take an abnormal psych class.
What role can the perpetrators play in helping us figure this out? What do they have to say? Apparently, "I didn't do it."
What do the victims have to say? Those who wanted to speak have spoken. The Church has a list of people who have told their stories.


I have to agree, I don't think these are particularly mysterious questions. Humans have a strong tribal impulse and we do all sorts of things and convince ourselves of all sorts of wackiness to protect the tribe.
   492. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: July 13, 2012 at 02:14 AM (#4181551)
You seem to be missing the discussion that's happening on this very thread, asking those very questions.

I must be missing that as well. What I see in this thread is some extremely justified outrage and sadness, some people saying "Power corrupts. It's that simple", one person saying "What's the point of discussing this, since all we can do is express outrage" and being shouted down, the inevitable tiresome sniping at Joe Posnanski, and a couple people congratulating themselves on having successfully guessed the worst 6 or 8 months ago.
   493. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: July 13, 2012 at 04:27 AM (#4181564)
I can also say that my friends and colleagues here are expressing far more wisdom and nuanced thinking about issues of child abuse in society in the wake of this horrible situation than I am seeing from outsiders. Far more than most of what I am reading here at BTF, that's for sure.


"Wisdom & nuanced thinking about issues of child abuse in society"?

Really?

But that's reserved for Tuesdays & Thursdays, surely.

On Mondays, Wednesdays & Fridays, I suppose, you all gather for wine & cheese parties to induldge in "wisdom & nuanced thinking" about issues of rape in society.

Weekends, I'm sure, are devoted to "wisdom & nuanced thinking" about -- Godwin alert! -- the Holocaust. No doubt over cocktails & really darling hors d'oeuvres.

Maybe my thinking is too linear here, but my gut reaction is that if you're sitting back & marinating yourself in "wisdom & nuanced thinking" about child rape & the perpetuating & covering-up thereof, especially when it happened in your own ivory-tower community's midst for years, you're doing something wrong. Any "wisdom & nuanced thinking" beyond "it's wrong, & I'm against it" strikes me as probably excessive.
   494. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 13, 2012 at 04:34 AM (#4181565)
the inevitable tiresome sniping at Joe Posnanski


He has brought this completely on himself, by coming out of the box with outrageous comments about the situation, and then clamming up - for some 8 months now - when asked to defend them.

But you can Extra!Extra! read all about whether he continues to make an ass out of himself in his book.

Pass.
   495. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 13, 2012 at 06:19 AM (#4181569)
i hate that oprah crap


This is just all kinds of awesome.
   496. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 13, 2012 at 06:52 AM (#4181573)
Fire him again?

He didn't fire him; he offered him the chance to coach as long as he wanted.(*)

Bill James's contrarian impulse has metastasized to the point that it's rendered him a clueless crank barely capable of serious engagement with anything.

(*) Which is to say, had Jerry Sandusky chosen the prize behind door number two, he would have been the Penn State defensive coordinator, instead of a mere professor emeritus, when he raped a 10-year-old boy in the Penn State locker room. As it was, he coached the 1999 season as a suspected child molester, there having been an "emergency" need for his services.
   497. Lassus Posted: July 13, 2012 at 07:08 AM (#4181575)
Any "wisdom & nuanced thinking" beyond "it's wrong, & I'm against it" strikes me as probably excessive.

Meh. Maybe. I don't think I agree with that. But I really don't agree with Andere. He's pissed because because - in his own word - "outsiders" are passing judgment on his house, and that reaction is understandable. I also agree that there are indeed wise and nuanced ways to discuss child abuse.

But neither this thread nor the other one are about child abuse. They are about Poz, JoePa, Penn State, and all their screwups from small to catastrophic. To get on this thread or other "outsiders" for being less nuanced in their discussion of child abuse - when that's not been the topic of discussion - is swinging the bat at the water cooler IMO.
   498. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 13, 2012 at 07:14 AM (#4181578)
I can also say that my friends and colleagues here are expressing far more wisdom and nuanced thinking about issues of child abuse in society in the wake of this horrible situation than I am seeing from outsiders. Far more than most of what I am reading here at BTF, that's for sure.

How about action? Is there any serious movement among faculty, or any other faction, to advocate the suspension of the 2012 football season? Or to otherwise deemphasize football?

Is the university going to foist upon us, in conjunction with the clowns at ESPN, pieties about the "healing process," "moving on," "overcoming adversity," and "learning life lessons" (*) while otherwise carrying on the rah-rah?

(*) Or, heaven forbid, something along the lines of "honoring the victims."
   499. Lassus Posted: July 13, 2012 at 07:17 AM (#4181579)
Of course a nuanced discussion would inevitably get into the positive effects of therapy for victims of abuse, and the shine is going to go off Ray's position rather quickly in that case.
   500. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 13, 2012 at 07:52 AM (#4181589)
Of course a nuanced discussion would inevitably get into the positive effects of therapy for victims of abuse, and the shine is going to go off Ray's position rather quickly in that case.


Huh? I have no issue with counseling per se or counseling for actual victims of something. What I've commented on -- and I won't address it further here because I don't want to derail the thread -- was the concept of addiction. Which of course is not at issue with respect to Sandusky's victims.
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