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Friday, January 13, 2012

College Football: Postseason Thread

Forsch 10 From Navarone (Dayn) Posted: January 13, 2012 at 08:22 AM | 892 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   501. Lassus Posted: July 13, 2012 at 08:04 AM (#4181593)
Huh? I have no issue with counseling per se or counseling for actual victims of something. What I've commented on -- and I won't address it further here because I don't want to derail the thread -- was the concept of addiction. Which of course is not at issue with respect to Sandusky's victims.

Well, I was poking you because I could have sworn you called psychology a "junk science". Perhaps that was david or someone else. If you think therapy is a valid response to trauma, I absolutely apologize for said poking.
   502. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: July 13, 2012 at 08:08 AM (#4181594)
Well, I was poking you because I could have sworn you called psychology a "junk science". Perhaps that was david or someone else. If you think therapy is a valid response to trauma, I absolutely apologize for said poking.


Did you just confuse me with Ray? WTF?!
   503. Lassus Posted: July 13, 2012 at 08:09 AM (#4181596)
Did you just confuse me with Ray?

Did you say something stupid?
   504. Lassus Posted: July 13, 2012 at 08:22 AM (#4181599)
Actually, I found it, it was David. And you made fun of him for saying so, Sam. Ray's contribution was more to (in the brief amount I read) dismiss people for thinking psychology was a decent predictor.

Anyhow, my apology to Ray stands, I think.
   505. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: July 13, 2012 at 08:24 AM (#4181602)
Actually, I found it, it was David.


Oh. David says stupid #### all the time.
   506. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 13, 2012 at 08:29 AM (#4181605)
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette editiorial board gets it right:

For that reason Penn State should suspend its football program until the university has sufficiently regained its perspective and reset its priorities. Football, in fact all sport, must be secondary at a credible institution of higher learning. This case is only the latest, and certainly the most tragic, example of what happens when a sport rules a major university.

The most powerful men at Penn State, its legendary football coach included, failed miserably to protect children and to protect the university's reputation, ostensibly their goal in engaging in an unconscionable cover-up. Regaining the public's trust won't be easy, and figuring out how to do it is a lot more important than deciding what's to become of some coach's statue outside the football stadium.
   507. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: July 13, 2012 at 09:31 AM (#4181625)
Any "wisdom & nuanced thinking" beyond "it's wrong, & I'm against it" strikes me as probably excessive.

Meh. Maybe. I don't think I agree with that.


I can see that. In this particular case, though, surely "child abuse"="child rape." I can easily envision the issue of child abuse per se warranting "wisdom & nuanced thinking." I mean, when I was a kid I saw my mother throw my Down syndrome younger sister across the kitchen floor; that whole dynamic reflected a very complex, extremely unfortunate situation, especially when my mother's genuine mental problems were thrown into the mix. If she'd raped my sister, though, all bets would've been off.

If Andere's friends & colleagues want to sit around & pontificate & wring their hands over the complex societal & personal factors that forced poor Jerry Sandusky to rape young boys for year after year, with what amounted to the connivance of the most powerful members of the community that Sandusky (& Andere's friends & colleagues) thrived in, I guess they're welcome to -- in Harveys' wonderful phrase -- "that oprah crap."
   508. bunyon Posted: July 13, 2012 at 09:33 AM (#4181629)
Football, in fact all sport, must be secondary at a credible institution of higher learning.

True, but I think, if you haven't been on campus in the last 20 years, that the disconnect between academic and athletic administrations is hard to believe. And, 9 times out of 10, when a conflict arises, athletics wins. This is true at pretty much every school involved in D-1 athletics, no matter how great an academic reputation the school enjoys. There are a handful of exceptions.

I like to think that if my school had a scandal like PSUs I would take more action. But, I think if we were to do something like go on strike the school would respond much the way MLB did win the umps struck. Hard to know.
   509. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: July 13, 2012 at 09:34 AM (#4181631)
Oh. David says all the time.


I've long been under the impression that "stupid ####" is what "Nieporent" translates to in English.
   510. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: July 13, 2012 at 10:51 AM (#4181730)
Bill James's contrarian impulse has metastasized to the point that it's rendered him a clueless crank barely capable of serious engagement with anything.

Oh, the irony.
   511. Bitter Mouse Posted: July 19, 2012 at 11:35 AM (#4186955)
I for one love the "think of the kids" talk whenever penalties on Penn State are talked about. "The players didn't do anything, why are they being punished?"

I see what motivates this kind of talk, but the institution needs to be punished. It needs to be made clear that this sort of behavior is not OK. Additional steps can be taken to make it right (or closer) for any athletes hurt by shutting down the program.

I have zero respect for the NCAA as an organization, and neither the Big10 nor Penn State impress me at the moment either, so who knows what will happen though.

Anyone know when we will find out? Any time lines or anything? Football season is coming up fast.
   512. Cowboy Popup Posted: July 19, 2012 at 11:59 AM (#4186974)
Football season is coming up fast.

Speaking of which, unless I missed some big game, week one looks pretty lousy. Tennessee @ NC State, Northwestern @ Syracuse, Clemson @ Auburn. Meh. Other than Michigan-Alabama, it looks like a snoozer.
   513. DA Baracus Posted: July 19, 2012 at 12:11 PM (#4186986)
I have zero respect for the NCAA as an organization, and neither the Big10 nor Penn State impress me at the moment either, so who knows what will happen though.


The Big 10 knows just what to do!
   514. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: July 20, 2012 at 11:27 AM (#4187929)
NCAA will impose a punishment. Not the death penalty.
   515. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: July 20, 2012 at 11:28 AM (#4187932)
Week one includes Boise State at Michigan State on Friday night. But I agree that its mostly snoozers. Iowa against Northern Illinois at Soldier Field will be the highlight of my weekend.
   516. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: July 20, 2012 at 11:39 AM (#4187946)
There is also Georgia Tech vs. Virginia Tech that Monday.
   517. Cowboy Popup Posted: July 20, 2012 at 11:43 AM (#4187949)
Week one includes Boise State at Michigan State on Friday night.

I figured I missed one. That should be a pretty interesting game. The Big Ten has a chance to make a statement week one.

There is also Georgia Tech vs. Virginia Tech that Monday.

Saw that one. I'm not convinced VA Tech is going to be all that good this year and I have trouble getting hyped up for ACC conference games early in the season before we know which teams are good. I will probably watch it since it is a Monday though. I guess whoever wins becomes a frontrunner for their division.
   518. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: July 20, 2012 at 11:49 AM (#4187966)
It's at least an interesting matchup between a pursuit defense and the Georgia Tech rushing attack.

But I'm a sucker for the bizarre schemes in cfb.
   519. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: July 20, 2012 at 11:58 AM (#4187973)
But I'm a sucker for the bizarre schemes in cfb.

Ditto. I love watching tech or Navy or D2 craziness.
   520. Joey B. has reignited his October #Natitude Posted: July 22, 2012 at 10:33 AM (#4189038)
It's being reported in several different outlets now that the NCAA is going to hit Penn State with what is being termed as "unprecedented penalties".

I'm glad and I hope that it's true, because nobody at that university has given me any indications at all that they really give a damn about what happened. It looks to me like they care about absolutely nothing but trying to carry on as normal and preserve what is left of their reputation.
   521. I am going to be Frank Posted: July 22, 2012 at 11:28 AM (#4189056)
Well PSU took the statue down.
   522. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: July 22, 2012 at 12:55 PM (#4189072)
From ESPN:

NCAA president Mark Emmert has decided to punish Penn State with severe penalties likely to include a significant loss of scholarships and loss of multiple bowls, a source close to the decision told ESPN's Joe Schad on Sunday morning.

But Penn State will not receive the so-called "death penalty" that would have suspended the program for at least one year, the source said.

The penalties, however, are considered to be so harsh that the death penalty may have been preferable, the source said.

The NCAA will announce "corrective and punitive measures" for Penn State on Monday morning, it said in a statement Sunday. Emmert will reveal the sanctions at 9 a.m. ET in Indianapolis at the organization's headquarters along with Ed Ray, the chairman of the NCAA's executive committee and Oregon State's president, the news release said.



The purpose of the NCAA is to keep a level playing field among schools and to make sure they use proper methods through scholarships and etcetera. This is not a case that would normally go through the process. It has nothing to do with a level playing field.
” -- A former NCAA Committee on Infractions chair and current Division I appeals committee member who wished to remain anonymous

It is expected the NCAA Division I Board of Directors and/or the NCAA Executive Committee has granted Emmert the authority to punish through non-traditional methods, the source told Schad.
   523. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: July 22, 2012 at 01:16 PM (#4189077)
Well PSU took the statue down.

Fantastic. Now everyone can switch to being outraged at that mural, or being outraged at the plaque in front of the library, or make a switch and start being outraged that the statue was taken down because PSU is trying to whitewash its history and take undeserved shortcuts in the healing process or whatever.
   524. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 22, 2012 at 01:29 PM (#4189084)

Fantastic. Now everyone can switch to being outraged at that mural, or being outraged at the plaque in front of the library, or make a switch and start being outraged that the statue was taken down because PSU is trying to whitewash its history and take undeserved shortcuts in the healing process or whatever.


Yes, all of that needs to now be decided. You don't honor a man who enabled a child predator for his own selfish gain.
   525. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: July 22, 2012 at 01:31 PM (#4189086)
Yes, all of that needs to now be decided. You don't honor a man who enabled a child predator for his own selfish gain.

How do you feel about the Jefferson Memorial?
   526. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: July 22, 2012 at 01:36 PM (#4189087)
They should change its face to Paterno's.
   527. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 22, 2012 at 01:39 PM (#4189089)
How do you feel about the Jefferson Memorial?


It can come down too, for all I care. Though this doesn't work very well as a comparison because slave ownership, no matter how disgusting, was an accepted part of the culture at the time. That doesn't make it right, obviously, but it does make the Paterno situation not comparable, since child sex abuse is not an accepted part of the culture and so there was no "excuse" for Paterno's enabling of it.

   528. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: July 22, 2012 at 01:44 PM (#4189094)
Weirdly, I'm on Ray's side on this one. It's not a Stalinist tactic to take down a statue of a disgraced football coach. Jefferson wasn't a saint, but as far as we know he lived reasonably within the bounds of his contemporary morality. Beyond all that, Jefferson was long dead and already repurposed as a sort of secular saint by the time his memorial was even built.
   529. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 22, 2012 at 06:09 PM (#4189292)
The penalties, however, are considered to be so harsh that the death penalty may have been preferable, the source said.


I don't know much about college football. Do you guys agree with this?
   530. I am going to be Frank Posted: July 22, 2012 at 06:23 PM (#4189299)
If its a postseason ban for a significant period of time (greater than four years) then I can see this being a problem. Also if its a loss of 25 scholarships a year for several years this could also be really bad. SMU was forced to dismantle their program and stop playing football for one year and they self-imposed an extra year. They couldn't recover because the SWC disintegrated and they really didn't have the history or resources to build themselves back up.

PSU is a historical power in a big conference and is the flagship university in a talent-rich state. Hypothetically if they were to get a death penalty I could see them being competitive in the Big 10 in four or five years after they were to restart the program.
   531. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: July 22, 2012 at 06:34 PM (#4189303)
If Ray is a blind squirrel, this PSU mess is his acorn. Outside of the emails to Pos bit, he's dead on correct on all counts.

In 50 years people should think of Penn State University and Happy Valley the same way they currently think of Abraham Baldwin Agriculture College in Tifton, GA. Only, you know, the folks in Tifton never willfully covered up multiple child rapes for the sake of a football program.
   532. booond Posted: July 22, 2012 at 06:37 PM (#4189305)
Difference between SMU and PSU is SMU became good because they cheated. We don't have that evidence on PSU. They could come back from an off year.
   533. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: July 22, 2012 at 06:39 PM (#4189307)
A fine between $30MM and $60MM.
   534. Dan The Mediocre Posted: July 22, 2012 at 06:48 PM (#4189311)
Difference between SMU and PSU is SMU became good because they cheated. We don't have that evidence on PSU. They could come back from an off year.


Also, SMU got caught, then had the Trustees decide to keep paying players, then got caught again. I don't think the NCAA had much choice at that point.
   535. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: July 22, 2012 at 07:14 PM (#4189316)
A fine between $30MM and $60MM.


Nice windfall for the NCAA. I wonder if they will use any of that money to help the victims.
   536. KJOK Posted: July 22, 2012 at 07:17 PM (#4189317)
Also, SMU got caught, then had the Trustees decide to keep paying players, then got caught again. I don't think the NCAA had much choice at that point.


Yes, the reason SMU got the death penalty was because they were ALREADY on probation, and had been punished for serious violations. The next step was the death penalty.

Penn St was not on any sort of probation, or even under investigation by the NCAA, so as I understand it the NCAA Executive committee had to allow a special grant of punishment by the NCAA President for Penn State outside of the normal NCAA investigation and enforcement procedures.

   537. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: July 22, 2012 at 08:10 PM (#4189331)
In 50 years people should think of Penn State University and Happy Valley the same way they currently think of Abraham Baldwin Agriculture College in Tifton, GA. Only, you know, the folks in Tifton never willfully covered up multiple child rapes for the sake of a football program.


PSU has had the best meteorology program in the country for 5 decades now. If the dude reading the evening forecast on your local TV is an actual meteorologist, then it's probably 60/40 that he got a degree of some sort from PSU. It'd be awesome if we all thought of Penn State as a great machine for generating weather nerds.
   538. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: July 22, 2012 at 08:24 PM (#4189335)
People at Black Shoe Diaries seem to think a bunch of Paterno's wins are going to be vacated. I would find this to be weird, but I guess it's possible.

I wouldn't mind at all if they just said, "Raze the stadium, guys. You're done." But that's not going to happen.
   539. Monty Posted: July 22, 2012 at 08:28 PM (#4189338)
Vacate all the wins and award them to...who's the main rival to Penn State? Pitt? Give all the wins to Pitt.
   540. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: July 22, 2012 at 09:09 PM (#4189358)
The wins thingy is significant because Paterno has just one more career win than Eddie Robinson at Grambling.
   541. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: July 22, 2012 at 09:21 PM (#4189360)
The fine will reportedly go towards a charity for victims of child abuse. Which seems apt, and a good choice if the charity is well run. Sadly, I'm guessing the money will likely come from academics or minor sports rather than the team. Because #### teaching people at a football university, right?
   542. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: July 22, 2012 at 09:25 PM (#4189364)
The wins thingy is significant because Paterno has just one more career win than Eddie Robinson at Grambling.


That's what I figured. Vacate two wins, and he loses the only record that holds the same kind of prestige as Ryan's, Young's, and Bonds'. Actually, THAT strikes me as vaguely Stalinist in the way that the razing of the statue doesn't, but whatever.

Since joining the Big 10, Penn St's rival has to be OSU, right? They're often the two best teams in the conference.
   543. CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck Posted: July 22, 2012 at 09:26 PM (#4189365)
Between Paterno and Bobby Bowden, we have plenty of evidence that building statues of living people and putting their likenesses in stained glass windows is a really bad idea.

Not that Bowden's stubborn, awkward-as-all-hell forced resignation debacle belongs in the same stratosphere as the Penn State atrocity.
   544. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: July 22, 2012 at 09:31 PM (#4189370)
I was gonna ask what Bowden did, other than get senile and let FSU fall into the second tier of football powers.
   545. The District Attorney Posted: July 22, 2012 at 09:36 PM (#4189378)
Then who won the games?? The league ledger has to add up.

I know the NCAA has done bullshit like this before, but it's bullshit. To me, that's probably the only thing short of hanging that should be off the table here.
   546. CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck Posted: July 22, 2012 at 09:41 PM (#4189382)

I was gonna ask what Bowden did, other than get senile and let FSU fall into the second tier of football powers.


That's pretty much it. And it's a perfectly legit reason to fire someone. It becomes really, really difficult to kick someone out on his ass after you've put him on a stained glass window, however.
   547. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: July 22, 2012 at 10:25 PM (#4189411)
And it's a perfectly legit reason to fire someone.


Oh, I agree. That's really the difficulty of the bargain you strike with star coaches, though: As long as they're still young and healthy enough to be competent, they carry a kind of prestige that's hard to replicate with a hired gun. Bowden and Paterno both took middling-to-good programs and turned them into elite, title-winning outfits that contended for conference titles yearly until they got old. It's not, I think, that men like these (or Woody Hayes, or Bear Bryant, or whomever) are actually irreplaceable geniuses as strategists, motivators, or even recruiters -- but success of this variety builds on itself, especially in an environment in which you can't openly bid for players' services. (To wit, the various saints of college basketball -- Coach K, Ralph Miller, John Thompson, etc.) Bowden or Paterno may have no special talent for any of those things, but each can say, "Look at us, kid. We win titles. We win 10 games a year even when we're bad. I make sure that happens." People find that kind of thing persuasive and reassuring. Witness the political careers of FDR & Charles de Gaulle, men who ruled democracies for decades based on that kind of comfort and certainty.

Of course there are programs that have done fine violating this idea: USC, significantly; but also Auburn and Florida. But this comes with its own drawbacks, not least that cheating results in students being punished rather than coaches, programs can experience extended fallow periods, and so on. And then there's the fact that Bowden & Paterno could just say, "Nope, not getting fired. Sorry. Also, hire my kids."
   548. CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck Posted: July 22, 2012 at 10:58 PM (#4189420)
I think that's right on, Vox. In Bowden's case he pretty much was Florida State football. That was a nothing program he built into a juggernaut. He was there so long that one of his players eventually became the university president. One can imagine how inclined that president would be to stand up to Bowden.

When Spurrier was at Florida he used to say that he hated the idea of being one of those coaches who spent 20+ years at one school. Now, a lot of that was Spurrier engaging in Bowden Baiting, his favorite pastime, but there's a lot of wisdom to it. Forget the way a Paterno or Bowden situation can warp the university's perspective: just from a football-obsessed POV the program becomes inextricably linked to those guys in a way that makes it impossible to imagine the team existing without them. Spurrier leaves Florida, the Gators suffer through Ron Zook for a couple seasons, and then Urban Meyer comes along and wins titles. Meyer leaves and it puts UF in a tough spot, but there's little sense of existential angst.

We'll see how PSU and FSU recover. Jimbo Fisher seems to be doing a solid job in Tallahassee. But the poor bloke in charge at Penn State is probably screwed.
   549. Forsch 10 From Navarone (Dayn) Posted: July 22, 2012 at 11:14 PM (#4189428)
Since joining the Big 10, Penn St's rival has to be OSU, right?

There's no shortage of fan animus. (NSFW language, idiots)

As for the sanctions, if it's not the death penalty, I certainly hope there's a TV ban on top of bowl ban and schollie reductions. Hell, wouldn't mind seeing them not be allowed to have any home games for a couple of seasons. The last thing anyone should want to see is 110,000 "true believers" rallying 'round the flag this season. Personally, I'd shut them down completely for two, three years, at which point they would be free to apply for reinstatement. Allow any current players and signed commits to transfer without penalty.
   550. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: July 22, 2012 at 11:51 PM (#4189442)
Spurrier leaves Florida, the Gators suffer through Ron Zook for a couple seasons, and then Urban Meyer comes along and wins titles. Meyer leaves and it puts UF in a tough spot, but there's little sense of existential angst.


Totally. Much as I loathe Florida (old Nebraska / Great Plains prejudices), I think this is dead on. There are a lot of reasons why a 12-15 year term limit on head coaches is a bad idea, but it does allow a team to replace a Spurrier with a Meyer (or a Belotti with a Kelly, to use a minor league version of the same idea) with relatively few bumps in the road.

Then again, it's no guarantee. Notre Dame hasn't been the same since Holtz left, and he was "only" there for a decade.
   551. CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck Posted: July 23, 2012 at 12:02 AM (#4189451)
Then again, it's no guarantee. Notre Dame hasn't been the same since Holtz left, and he was "only" there for a decade.


Thank you for these sentences, because it gives me a perfect excuse to link to this book. On the unintentional hilarity scale, it's really, really hard to beat it.
   552. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: July 23, 2012 at 12:08 AM (#4189455)
Thank you for these sentences, because it gives me a perfect excuse to link to this book. On the unintentional hilarity scale, it's really, really hard to beat it.


Thank you for this. It's . . . thank you.
   553. Every Inge Counts Posted: July 23, 2012 at 12:11 AM (#4189456)
Between Paterno and Bobby Bowden, we have plenty of evidence that building statues of living people and putting their likenesses in stained glass windows is a really bad idea.


Maybe Alabama should have waited to build that statue of Nick Saban....
   554. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: July 23, 2012 at 12:14 AM (#4189458)
Everybody knows that Saban is senile and routinely covers up child rape. And that's without considering the genocide stuff.
   555. CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck Posted: July 23, 2012 at 12:25 AM (#4189467)

Everybody knows that Saban is senile and routinely covers up child rape. And that's without considering the genocide stuff.


While I grant that what Alabama has done to Florida each of the last three years has been painful to watch, I'm hesitant to label it "genocide." If it gets Saban dragged off to The Hague, however, I can probably overcome my scruples.
   556. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: July 23, 2012 at 12:33 AM (#4189472)
Just wait till you find out what everybody in Oregon knows about Jim Carroll.
   557. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: July 23, 2012 at 12:44 AM (#4189479)
Allow any current players and signed commits to transfer without penalty.


And Penn State pay the scholarships.
   558. steagles Posted: July 23, 2012 at 02:17 AM (#4189497)
i think you people are way too giddy about kicking this dog again, even though it's already been repeatedly knocked to the ground.

death penalty
+ Tv bans
+ bowl bans
+ scholarship losses
+ vacating wins
+ heavy fines
+ loss of players who transfer without having to sit out a year


and all of that is in spite of the fact that paterno's dead, sandusky is in jail for the rest of his life, and curley and schultz are indicted for perjury, and spanier was fired. those are the primary actors in this, and they all seem to be getting theirs.


who are you punishing here? and why are you punishing them?

with all of the above having already left in disgrace, none of them are personally affected by bringing the asshammer down on PSU football.

and even if you still want to punish the school for their misdeeds, is that actually what's going on here? the underlying crime is kind of an atrocity (i suspect that some people will take issue with the phrase "kind of" being attached to that sentence, but i feel it's important to note that he did not kill any of his victims. nor did he mutilate or torture them. the word atrocity carries a very strong meaning, and i can't help but think that if you use that word here, it significant lightens the weight of the word when it's used to refer to something that truly is an atrocity (genocides in myanmar, sudan, cambodia, rwanda, genital mutilation in africe, honor killings in the middle east, medical experimentation in the holocaust). those are atrocities, this is, well, not that) but the crime that relates to the members of the school is only a failure to report. and even that's kind of a fallacy, because sandusky had been investigated by the police and that investigation went nowhere.


and if you want to punish the football team just so you don't have to see 110 thousand screaming PSU fans every saturday in beaver stadium, you know, because it's unseemly, i'd ask, who does that benefit? it doesn't benefit the athletes, it doesn't benefit the students, it doesn't benefit scholastic departments at the university, it doesn't benefit the victims, it doesn't benefit anyone who isn't any of those people, either.


aside from urban meyer and lane kiffin, does anyone benefit from this? i know there's a visceral reaction to this, but the university (not just the football team) does a lot of good things, and it seems like people are all gung ho about destroying them--again, the university, not just the football team--, despite the fact that the people who are at fault here are maybe .0001% of the population at the school.


and if you want to point to the fact that some random idiots got liquored up and threw over a newsvan as evidence of the entire university being complicit in these actions, i would argue that it was an isolated incident whose impact was almost wholly insignificant.



and if you want to argue that this harsh punishment makes a strong statement against shielding any future child rapists from prosecution, well, i'd ask, is that really in any way necessary? again, sandusky is going to jail for life, spanier, curley, and schultz have lost their jobs (and with their names all over google, i can't imagine it'll be exceedingly easy for them to find new ones), and the latter two have outstanding criminal charges against them.

that right there is the incentive against doing what these men did.


and if you want to argue that someone still needs to be punished for the fact that a rapist walked as a free man for a decade before setting foot in a court room, well, i'd say that's not something to be handled by the president of the NCAA, but rather, it should, and it will, be handled in a civilian court of law, where victims will be free to pursue lawsuits against the university and the men involved in the "cover-up".




anyway, the board of trustees at PSU seems wholly content to bend over a chair and take a fat throbbing, NCAA logo emblazoned #### up the ass as a way to show further contrition over these heinous acts, despite the fact that the university, as it exists today, is only tangentially related to the main actors in this drama.



considering my strong interest in the pursuit of anarchy, i should be ecstatic that we get to see what happens when the head of this snake starts trying to eat its own tail, but i still can't help but feel a little tinge of unease at the haste that these penalties have been thought up and potentially implemented, not to mention the fact that there's no precedent and no standing for these penalties to be handed out, based on the NCAA's own bylaws.
   559. Forsch 10 From Navarone (Dayn) Posted: July 23, 2012 at 02:35 AM (#4189500)
nor did he mutilate or torture them.

I have no problem characterizing what Sandusky did to those kids as "torture."
   560. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: July 23, 2012 at 02:42 AM (#4189503)
who are you punishing here? and why are you punishing them?

Do you happen to be from Pennsylvania, by any chance?
   561. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: July 23, 2012 at 07:16 AM (#4189525)
but i feel it's important to note that he did not kill any of his victims. nor did he mutilate or torture them.

Is this really the direction you want to go in? Because this comes off as a fairly disgusting apologia and is not helping your argument against burning the PSU athletic program to the ground.
   562. Lassus Posted: July 23, 2012 at 07:37 AM (#4189527)
anyway, the board of trustees at PSU seems wholly content to bend over a chair and take a fat throbbing, NCAA logo emblazoned #### up the ass as a way to show further contrition over these heinous acts, despite the fact that the university, as it exists today, is only tangentially related to the main actors in this drama.

This right here is the hallucinatory money quote, I'd say.
   563. A Fatty Cow That Need Two Seats Posted: July 23, 2012 at 07:46 AM (#4189528)
the board of trustees at PSU seems wholly content to bend over a chair and take a fat throbbing, NCAA logo emblazoned #### up the ass

piling on, of course, but is this really the way you want to describe the actions taken against penn state?
   564. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: July 23, 2012 at 07:58 AM (#4189529)
but i feel it's important to note that he did not kill any of his victims. nor did he mutilate or torture them.


You know who else didn't kill any of his victims, or mutilate or torture them? Hitler.

Well, not personally. Not that I know of.

...

Ummm.

I'm not sure what I'm saying here.

Never mind.
   565. Cowboy Popup Posted: July 23, 2012 at 08:15 AM (#4189534)
who are you punishing here? and why are you punishing them?

Not that I want to get involved in this, but what a strange question. This is college football. They punish the program. In this sport, the people who break the rules are often long gone by the time the NCAA gets around to discovering the transgression and enacting a punishment. I mean, they just busted USC pretty badly for something that a player and coach in the NFL did. Whether or not the same people are there, the program is still there and it will suffer the consequences of the people who led it astray.
   566. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:19 AM (#4189574)
The NCAA has hit Penn State with a $60 million sanction, a four-year football postseason ban and a vacation of all wins dating to 1998, the organization announced Monday morning in a news release.

"These funds must be paid into an endowment for external programs preventing child sexual abuse or assisting victims and may not be used to fund such programs at the university," the statement said.

The career record of former head football coach Joe Paterno will reflect these vacated records, the statement continued.

Penn State must also reduce 10 initial and 20 total scholarships each year for a four-year period, the release said.
   567. JJ1986 Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:23 AM (#4189578)
I get all the other penalties, but what is the possible reason for vacating the wins? They weren't cheating in any way.
   568. Gaelan Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:24 AM (#4189580)
Not to pile on but asking the who benefits question is the worst way to pursue justice. Calculation of benefits is antithetical to thinking about justice.
   569. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:26 AM (#4189581)
I get all the other penalties, but what is the possible reason for vacating the wins? They weren't cheating in any way.

I've always thought the vacating wins penalty was dumb. How do you pretend those games didn't happen? On the other hand, where is Paterno on the all-times wins list now? Heh!
   570. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:30 AM (#4189584)
jj

trying to include paterno in the penalty impact. just my guess

i think the ncaa is overreaching and the presidents will regret giving it this power.

on the flip side i am ok with penn state not being in bowl games for a while. it would be unseemly at minimum to have thousands of psu fans whooping it up on a new year's day for victims families to see.
   571. Every Inge Counts Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:30 AM (#4189585)
Bill O'Brien must be pumped he took the Penn State job now...

Bill O'Brien can't be happy

His salary breakdown from the link:
Winning the division: 5 percent of base salary
Big Ten championship game: 8 percent of base salary
Participation in bowl game: 11 percent of base salary
Winning the BCS championship game: 9 percent of base salary
   572. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:31 AM (#4189586)
I get all the other penalties, but what is the possible reason for vacating the wins? They weren't cheating in any way.


It takes Paterno's name out of the record books. Makes Bobby Bowden the wins record holder. That's the point.

I had a lengthy argument with a friend and fellow PSU alum of mine last night; he argued that stripping scholarships and banning from bowls really is only punishing the current players and fans for the sins of coaches and administrators who are now gone. I don't fully agree with it, but I see his point.
   573. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:31 AM (#4189588)
I get all the other penalties, but what is the possible reason for vacating the wins? They weren't cheating in any way.

I guess the argument would be that if people at PSU were covering up to protect the program then the wins were partially a result of this unfair advantage.

In reality, I think this is about Paterno's legacy as much as anything.
   574. Bad Doctor Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:31 AM (#4189589)
I get all the other penalties, but what is the possible reason for vacating the wins? They weren't cheating in any way.

There is too much cynicism and rushing to judgment in the world to begin with, and I will admit that I am one that thought that this sort of thing shouldn't really be in the NCAA's "jurisdiction" to begin with and they should step down.

Having said that, does this not make the NCAA look as bad as it possibly could? The vacating wins strikes me as the raison d'etre for the whole thing -- now the NCAA doesn't have somebody who will be forever remembered as enabling child rape on the top of its coaching wins list.

Others on this board have made great points about the distinction between public cries for PSU being properly punished and contrite and public cries of scrubbing history in an Orwellian nature. Is it fair to say that the NCAA's action this morning lands with both feet quite firmly in the latter?
   575. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:31 AM (#4189590)
Gotta agree. I'd be happy, I think, if Perv State (& certainly its football field) were burned to the ground, but the hideous behavior by the highers-up, the vile Joe Paterno included, had no impact on what happened on the football field.

OTOH, at least certain hand-wringers here can untwist their panties over the death penalty scenario.
   576. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:32 AM (#4189591)
O'Brien is a fool if he didn't take the job knowing full well he wouldn't be coaching in any bowl games. He's going to coach for three or four years, log a record of about 7-29 or 10-38, and then hit the job market with Head Coaching Experience on his resume. That's what he gets out of this.
   577. Lassus Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:32 AM (#4189592)
Is this worse than the fabled "Death Penalty"? Seems like it might not be.
   578. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:33 AM (#4189593)
I think vacating wins is normally pretty stupid, but it makes a bit more sense here - given that this scandal is (in part) about protecting PSU's image / getting Paterno the career time win record ... punishment should involve his losing that place. Plus, obviously the NCAA likes that in a CYA sense.

Having said that, death penalty + offering kids the chance to transfer w/o penalty (and maintaining the scholarships for those who stay) was the way to go, I think.
   579. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:34 AM (#4189596)
I don't fully agree with it, but I see his point.

They would never be able to punish a school if they didn't do it this way as they could always just fire those responsible and use your friend's argument to avoid punishment. Corporations would love to have this kind of escape of culpability, as well. We fired the CEO! Leave us alone now!
   580. JJ1986 Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:35 AM (#4189598)
But having Paterno's name missing from the top will always draw more attention to the record than if he was simply there. It will always be about how Paterno actually had the most wins but they were stripped from him. People aren't going to forget what actually happened.
   581. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:37 AM (#4189600)
Shooty: Yes, that's about right. Penn State's a little different, in that they really have cleaned house from top to bottom, but I agree with you. The counter-point is, is not the fact Tim Curley will likely never work for an NCAA-sanctioned school again enough to deter other ADs from thinking about coverups? Or maybe more to the point, does also stripping scholarships and banning from bowls really add any additional deterrent value?
   582. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:37 AM (#4189601)
Others on this board have made great points about the distinction between public cries for PSU being properly punished and contrite and public cries of scrubbing history in an Orwellian nature. Is it fair to say that the NCAA's action this morning lands with both feet quite firmly in the latter?

Well, vacating wins is kind of a standard punishment for violations. It would have been more surprising if the NCAA didn't do so in this instance.
   583. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:37 AM (#4189602)
jj

the media lead in now to antything related paterno cannot include 'all time leader in coaching wins' or some such.

instead for all time any reference to paterno will be how his career ended in disgrace

i don't know if that was the goal but that is how it will play out

   584. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:39 AM (#4189604)
But having Paterno's name missing from the top will always draw more attention to the record than if he was simply there. It will always be about how Paterno actually had the most wins but they were stripped from him. People aren't going to forget what actually happened.


It's a fair point, I understand the argument that "he didn't cheat his way to those wins so why mess with the factual record of what happened?", but on the whole it makes more sense to take his name out than to leave it in, I think.

I honestly think we're being naive if we don't think just about any big-shot college football coach wouldn't have done nearly the same things Paterno did in the same situation. Presuming oneself above the law is practically a requirement.
   585. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:44 AM (#4189607)
Or maybe more to the point, does also stripping scholarships and banning from bowls really add any additional deterrent value?

I don't know, but what else do they have to whack a program with? I think the death penalty is going to be more and more difficult to impose as they keep signing these larger and more complicated tv and tv network deals. All the more reason to just make these football teams independent LLC's loosely affiliated with the universities by marketing and stadium rental agreements. This is a big, big business now and the school presidents and the trustees can't run large educational institutions and run mini-media empires at the same time.
   586. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:47 AM (#4189608)
the media lead in now to antything related paterno cannot include 'all time leader in coaching wins' or some such.

Is there still time for Poz to edit his book? ;)
   587. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:50 AM (#4189610)
Shooty: They don't have anything else to whack a program with, but I'm devil's advocating here and asking, is it not enough to severely punish the individuals involved here, as has already happened, and leave the players and fans who are already suffering enough alone?

I would assume it's pretty much Free Agency Day now on Penn State's incoming freshman class, anyway.
   588. Lassus Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:52 AM (#4189613)
I'm really curious, as I don't follow college sports enough to know. Is this worse than the Death Penalty given to SMU? It honestly doesn't seem so.

Can someone explain if this is a good punishment or not?
   589. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:52 AM (#4189614)
Bowl bans and reduced scholarships are the only true means the NCAA has to penalize a school. And nearly EVERY penalty hits the school after the evil doers are already gone.

I do think O'Brien will do much better than 10-38. I wouldn't be surprised if PSU has a .500 record over the next four years.
   590. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:54 AM (#4189617)
I would be surprised if Penn State won more than 10 games over the next four years. I'm expecting a mass exodus of commitments the next few weeks; we'll see.
   591. bunyon Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:55 AM (#4189621)
and leave the players and fans who are already suffering enough alone?

They may not have had knowledge but the power the football program had, which allowed this scandal, comes from the fan and fan support. Given the response of, what appears to be, the majority of PSU fans to this scandal, I think they absolutely should share in the punishment. The players can transfer. But the fans should suffer, at least until it appears they accept that PSU and Paterno were not what they were believed to have been.

So, if not the death penalty, I would have put a 4 year ban on home games as well.
   592. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:55 AM (#4189622)
is it not enough to severely punish the individuals involved here, as has already happened, and leave the players and fans who are already suffering enough alone?

I just think you should consider the implication of that line of thought. How could you ever hold an institution--corporate, academic, political, etc.--accountable for anything if you could simply excise the individuals designated for responsibility?
   593. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:57 AM (#4189624)
Is this worse than the Death Penalty given to SMU? It honestly doesn't seem so.

Not even close. PSU can muddle through four years. Lots of players won't transfer, although many will. If they were given the SMU death penalty (no games for one year, only road games for a 2nd year), the program would be forced to start over from scratch. How many players would stay in such a scenario? Ten? Twenty? Of the current PSU 105 man roster (including scrubs), I could see 75 remain. Scrubs don't have better options, seniors and juniors may decide they can start at PSU instead of transferring and maybe never winning a job elsewhere. PSU diehards will stay. They can put together ok teams for 4 years. They'll still stink for 2 or 3 years after penalties.

But the death penalty would kill the program. All players gone. Season ticket list starting over from scratch in 2 years. etc. etc.
   594. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: July 23, 2012 at 10:00 AM (#4189629)
I would have put a 4 year ban on home games as well.

A home game ban, like a TV ban, is not going to happen due to its impact on other schools. How would the B10 operate if PSU had to have 8 road games each year? I could see them forced to give up home OOC games, but even that would be hard to do for existing contracts.
   595. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: July 23, 2012 at 10:00 AM (#4189630)
This punishment is about as severe as the NCAA can get.

The death penalty could be construed as worse than the fine because $60 million is a ton of cash money and the bowl ban will be a major recruiting deterrent (and I would guess they are probably also cut out of the Big Ten bowl shares by conf. rule). So PSU is going to lose vast sums of money and future recruits will be discouraged from joining in the near future. On the other hand, current players will be able to stay with their friends and teammates while finishing their scholarships at the school they chose.

IMO the death penalty hits players much harder than the institution so I am glad it was not imposed here.

EDIT: I meant the death penalty could be construed as less harsh than the fine... typing on my phone here
   596. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: July 23, 2012 at 10:01 AM (#4189631)
I don't know, but what else do they have to whack a program with?


Personally, I think they should have taken a page out of UEFA's handbook, when they make an Italian* team play behind closed doors. Not in exclusion to the other penalties of course. I agree with Harvey's that having a packed stadium whooping for the team is unseemly, and disrespectful to the victims and their families. Shut them out.

*yeah come on, it's always an Italian team
   597. bunyon Posted: July 23, 2012 at 10:05 AM (#4189633)
Home games with no gate would be fine, too.

I'm not sure I get the point about contracts. I can see that some scheduling conflicts may exist for this year but past that? Are you saying a team wouldn't gladly trade an away game for a home game? I can't imagine anyone wouldn't jump at that trade.
   598. DA Baracus Posted: July 23, 2012 at 10:06 AM (#4189634)
I think that's a great idea Shooty. If PSU wants to show that it's about more than football, they should happily agree to it.
   599. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: July 23, 2012 at 10:14 AM (#4189637)
I think that's a great idea Shooty. If PSU wants to show that it's about more than football, they should happily agree to it.

The NCAA will never allow it and the NFL would fight it tooth and nail, too. I think it's the right thing to do but I'm under no illusion it will ever happen. It would just completely obliterate the current status quo.
   600. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: July 23, 2012 at 10:15 AM (#4189638)
This is a very severe penalty and I would definitely say it is in the same neighborhood as the DP. The scholly cuts are not insignificant. Football gets 85 scholarships, and signing classes are typically between 11 and 25 players.

Coupled with the fact that players can't transfer w/o sitting out a season, the roster will be significantly shorted in the short and medium terms. $60 million is quite severe. I'd be stunned if they compete for a BIG championship for 8 seasons.

Wisconsin gets a bye to the BIG title game this season for sure, with only Purdue, Indiana and Illinois being eligible.
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