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Friday, January 13, 2012

College Football: Postseason Thread

Forsch 10 From Navarone (Dayn) Posted: January 13, 2012 at 07:22 AM | 892 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   601. hokieneer Posted: July 23, 2012 at 10:16 AM (#4189639)
Home games with no gate would be fine, too.

Right in the ESPN story:

The NCAA said the $60 million was equivalent to the average annual revenue of the football program.


So essentially, that's what the NCAA did. The fine is a way to remove the revenue of home games for a year, but still let the other B10 members and OOC opponents make theirs. Plus, the fine will protect all the revenue for the associated businesses in Happy Valley.
   602. DA Baracus Posted: July 23, 2012 at 10:18 AM (#4189640)
I don't see why the NFL would (or should) fight it. They have a hard enough time carrying over NCAA suspensions to people who turn pro.
   603. hokieneer Posted: July 23, 2012 at 10:21 AM (#4189641)
The scholly cuts are not insignificant. Football gets 85 scholarships, and signing classes are typically between 11 and 25 players.

Yeah that's what I was thinking. The scholarship cuts will have a significant impact 7-8 years down the road. In year 7, PSU will be playing with 40-60% (factoring in standard attrition) of scholarship juniors & seniors. It's hard to compete for anything in a tough conference with that kind of depth.
   604. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: July 23, 2012 at 10:23 AM (#4189644)
Also, they not only removed transfer restrictions for current PSU players, but may allow schools to go over their scholly limits in order to accept PSU transfers as long as the schools give up an equivalent number of schollys in the next season.

I will say this for the NCAA, the punishment is narrowly tailored and clearly contemplated to punish the program, rather than the current players. FWIW, I think this punishment is intended to be retributive rather than a deterrant, and retribution is (of course) a legitimate grounds for punishment.
   605. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 23, 2012 at 10:29 AM (#4189651)
His salary breakdown from the link:
Winning the division: 5 percent of base salary
Big Ten championship game: 8 percent of base salary
Participation in bowl game: 11 percent of base salary
Winning the BCS championship game: 9 percent of base salary


Those kinds of clauses are unconscionable for college football coaches, and part of the cultural deprivation that led to the Penn State mess. The NCAA should forbid them.
   606. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 23, 2012 at 10:31 AM (#4189653)
I get all the other penalties, but what is the possible reason for vacating the wins? They weren't cheating in any way.

The cover-up gave them a competitive advantage by staving off adverse publicity and, thereby, scaring off potential recruits.

They covered up so as not to damage the "brand" and the "brand" is what they equipped themselves with on the recruiting trail.
   607. Bad Doctor Posted: July 23, 2012 at 10:31 AM (#4189655)
Well, vacating wins is kind of a standard punishment for violations. It would have been more surprising if the NCAA didn't do so in this instance

But the standard punishment deals with standard violations. So when you can't control boosters from giving Reggie Bush or Chris Webber thousands of dollars of gifts? Well, those players should have really been ineligible and it's unfair to allow the school to accept the fruits of victories from their performance, so wins are vacated. There just isn't any corollary here, as heinous as this situation is. For PSU to have the fruits of victories for these last several years doesn't make any of us feel good, and it may be "unfair" on a karmic level, but there was nothing unfair about the actual competition itself. [EDIT: I see SBB's corollary in 606. I guess this is the road you have to go down, but it still strikes me as a stretch.]

the media lead in now to antything related paterno cannot include 'all time leader in coaching wins' or some such.

instead for all time any reference to paterno will be how his career ended in disgrace


There is something to be said for this, HW, certainly. I guess my feeling is just that measures like this really only further the "football uber alles" sentiment that led PSU down this road in the first place ... like we need some invented football punishment, because that's all that matters. I think there's something more meaningful in the sentiment that even though he would remain the all time leader in coaching wins, everyone would still remember the disgrace, and it's likely that that's what everyone without connection to Happy Valley (and perhaps even some who are connected) would remember first.

I don't think this teaches a good lesson. Trivial as it sounds, there's something to be said for "it's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game." Bad people win, bad people succeed, and that all gets filed under "life's not fair." But when bad people are exposed, the lesson isn't that we now get to go back and adjust the wins and losses to reflect that they were bad people ... the lesson is that the wins and losses don't really matter as much as the quality of that person's character and the way he lived his life. [EDIT: Oh hell, somebody's going to bust out the "oprah crap" comment again, aren't they?]
   608. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 23, 2012 at 10:34 AM (#4189658)
They may not have had knowledge but the power the football program had, which allowed this scandal, comes from the fan and fan support. Given the response of, what appears to be, the majority of PSU fans to this scandal, I think they absolutely should share in the punishment. The players can transfer. But the fans should suffer, at least until it appears they accept that PSU and Paterno were not what they were believed to have been.

I'm trying to sort out whether really bad football might be a bigger punishment for the cult than no football at all. It might be.
   609. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: July 23, 2012 at 10:35 AM (#4189660)
I will say this for the NCAA, the punishment is narrowly tailored and clearly contemplated to punish the program, rather than the current players. FWIW, I think this punishment is intended to be retributive rather than a deterrant, and retribution is (of course) a legitimate grounds for punishment.
Agreed on all this. Count me surprised to be saying that I think the NCAA actually got this one right.

I mean, short of burning down college football as a sport, that is. But that ain't happening.
   610. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 23, 2012 at 10:42 AM (#4189666)
O'Brien is a fool if he didn't take the job knowing full well he wouldn't be coaching in any bowl games. He's going to coach for three or four years, log a record of about 7-29 or 10-38, and then hit the job market with Head Coaching Experience on his resume. That's what he gets out of this.


This. Its not like no one knows what kind of difficult circumstance he's coaching under. If he pulls of any kind of major upset, it will become a "30 for 30" doc.

And while its not nearly on the same scale, Roy Williams at KU and Rick Pitino at UK both began their careers inheriting programs under probation. Pitino's first team was quite mediocre and full of walk-ons and he used that as motivation for a team that would eventually win a national championship.

Any chance the B1G suspends Penn State from play for a year? This seems on par with Baylor basketball's transgressions, and they were banned from conference play for one year.
   611. billyshears Posted: July 23, 2012 at 10:46 AM (#4189673)
Shooty: They don't have anything else to whack a program with, but I'm devil's advocating here and asking, is it not enough to severely punish the individuals involved here, as has already happened, and leave the players and fans who are already suffering enough alone?


To state the obvious, this is about a football program that had grown so powerful that not only did it act as if it was immune from the law, but from common morality as well. Justice for the responsible individuals is not enough. The entire Penn State community enabled that culture, and the entire culture has to be brought to their knees.
   612. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: July 23, 2012 at 10:47 AM (#4189674)
Pitino's first team was quite mediocre and full of walk-ons and he used that as motivation for a team that would eventually win a national championship.

Funny that you mention that. I've been picturing PSU having their own version of the unforgettables as all this plays out. Pennsylvania kids filling the 65 man roster and being ok.
   613. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 23, 2012 at 10:52 AM (#4189677)
sugar

incentives are common in every large management contract known to mankind. though i agree it should be balanced that if a base graduation rate or some equivlanet isn't reached all other bonuses are null/void
   614. Every Inge Counts Posted: July 23, 2012 at 10:54 AM (#4189679)
Seems like one of the arguments I have seen against this is that the NCAA is overstepping its jurisdiction with its ruling.
   615. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: July 23, 2012 at 10:55 AM (#4189680)
I will say this for the NCAA, the punishment is narrowly tailored and clearly contemplated to punish the program, rather than the current players. FWIW, I think this punishment is intended to be retributive rather than a deterrant, and retribution is (of course) a legitimate grounds for punishment.

Agreed on all this. Count me surprised to be saying that I think the NCAA actually got this one right.

I mean, short of burning down college football as a sport, that is. But that ain't happening


Thirded. The PSU football mystique and aura were what enabled Sandusky to continue his crimes. Vacating one or two wins doesn't do all that much, but the sheer quantity in this case does help kill that special feeling people got when thinking of PSU football.

Already one top recruit is choosing to go to UNC instead of PSU, I will be shocked if the majority of recruits don't follow his lead and go elsewhere. And why would a freshman want to stay on at PSU? They can transfer with no penalties, the god-coach is dead, there will be many, many haters being ######## to the players (not justifiably), no bowls to play for, etc.
   616. DA Baracus Posted: July 23, 2012 at 11:00 AM (#4189685)
Any chance the B1G suspends Penn State from play for a year?


It would be pretty hard to get every team to find a replacement team to complete their schedule on such short notice. Sure, they could just forfeit the games but then there wouldn't be any money made on gameday for the other Big 10 schools.
   617. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: July 23, 2012 at 11:01 AM (#4189687)
And while its not nearly on the same scale, Roy Williams at KU and Rick Pitino at UK both began their careers inheriting programs under probation. Pitino's first team was quite mediocre and full of walk-ons and he used that as motivation for a team that would eventually win a national championship.
A comparison that immediately comes to mind is Gary Williams coming to the Maryland Terrapins after the twin agonies of Len Bias dying and then the Bob Wade debacle. He took over a program only to see it get hit with three years' probation, a two-year ban on postseason play, and a one year TV ban for Wade's many transgressions. And he became a folk hero for rebuilding it back into a powerhouse.
   618. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: July 23, 2012 at 11:02 AM (#4189689)
Rittenberg/Bennett ?@ESPN_BigTen

B1G penalties for PSU include loss of bowl revenue over next four years (approx. $13 million total) and censure. Conference call at 11 am

---

@ESPNMichele: Per ESPN research, w/ Penn State's '98-'11 wins vacated, the last QB to win a game at PSU was Mike McQueary on 11/22/97
   619. bunyon Posted: July 23, 2012 at 11:25 AM (#4189697)
@ESPNMichele: Per ESPN research, w/ Penn State's '98-'11 wins vacated, the last QB to win a game at PSU was Mike McQueary on 11/22/97

I love it when a plan comes together.
   620. TDF, situational idiot Posted: July 23, 2012 at 11:26 AM (#4189698)
Already one top recruit is choosing to go to UNC instead of PSU
Isn't it ironic?
   621. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: July 23, 2012 at 11:58 AM (#4189717)
Isn't it ironic?


Yeah, 'why the hell UNC' was my thought.
   622. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 23, 2012 at 12:07 PM (#4189723)
The 2010 game I watched between Ohio State and Penn State has now been vacated by both schools. College sports are awesome.
   623. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: July 23, 2012 at 12:23 PM (#4189732)
The 2010 game I watched between Ohio State and Penn State has now been vacated by both schools. College sports are awesome.

Technically, only the win is vacated.
   624. Lassus Posted: July 23, 2012 at 12:45 PM (#4189750)
To this outsider layperson, the punishment seems worthy of a rather subdued Britsh Open golf clap. -shrug-

Kids recruited two years from now will get the "We'll return Penn State to glory, and YOU'LL be the ESPN headline on that team" speech, and some will buy it. And more will buy it the following year, etc.
   625. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: July 23, 2012 at 12:46 PM (#4189752)
Wow, with all these vacated wins, now the BIG bowl game record, really sucks. (6 PSU bowl wins)
   626. KJOK Posted: July 23, 2012 at 01:03 PM (#4189757)
Then who won the games?? The league ledger has to add up.

I know the NCAA has done ######## like this before, but it's ########.


The NCAA has done this A LOT with College Basketball. I think just forfeiting the games would be better, but then that could move some team from 3rd place to 2nd place in the conference if that team received a forfeit and the current 2nd place team didn't - at least that seems to be the way the NCAA justifies vacating games.

   627. Every Inge Counts Posted: July 23, 2012 at 01:07 PM (#4189763)
So how is the reaction at Black Shoe Diaries...


I’ve gotten tired of the “for the children” bullshit. To the point where if someone brings it up, I will openly state we’ve done enough for them. They’re going to compensated financially from the university, they’re being offered the counseling they need, the offenders are facing criminal charges or already in jail. Enough is enough. If one of the victims speaks up and request something, I’m all for helping them and reasonably accommodating their wishes, but I’m done with support actions taken on their behalf. This has gotten absurdly ridiculous. So go ahead and tell me I condone child rape or whatever else you want to label me, but that’s the point that all this #### has driven me to.

It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one’s steps to the upper air – there’s the rub, the task.

by Succss With Honor Always on Jul 23, 2012 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
   628. DA Baracus Posted: July 23, 2012 at 01:08 PM (#4189765)
Kids recruited two years from now will get the "We'll return Penn State to glory, and YOU'LL be the ESPN headline on that team" speech, and some will buy it. And more will buy it the following year, etc.


Agreed. I think the death penalty might have amplified that sentiment when football returned.

However now you'll get the occasional upset while PSU is handicapped and PSU sycophants will declare that the PSU spirit lives.
   629. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 23, 2012 at 01:12 PM (#4189768)
There's many autumn days of awful football ahead for the cult, and the cult leader has been publicly denuded. That's better than a year off then back to normal.
   630. Eddo Posted: July 23, 2012 at 01:27 PM (#4189777)
Wow, that Black Shoe Diaries post really is something. Even relative to the past six months on that site.

---

Kids recruited two years from now will get the "We'll return Penn State to glory, and YOU'LL be the ESPN headline on that team" speech, and some will buy it. And more will buy it the following year, etc.

How horrible would this be, though? I agree with DA Baracus, in that an actual "death penalty" (a year with no football) would probably lead to more of this sentiment.

But the program has been punished, and harshly. The men in charge have had their reputations sullied (rightfully). At some point, Penn State should be allowed to attempt recovery, having separated themselves from the horrors of their past, right?

Unless you're really saying that Penn State should be prohibited from having a football program ever again. Then this comment makes a lot of sense. And I'm open to the thought of that actually being a reasonable punishment.
   631. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 23, 2012 at 01:40 PM (#4189785)
At some point, Penn State should be allowed to attempt recovery, having separated themselves from the horrors of their past, right?

Unless you're really saying that Penn State should be prohibited from having a football program ever again. Then this comment makes a lot of sense. And I'm open to the thought of that actually being a reasonable punishment.

Agreed on both.
   632. andrewberg Posted: July 23, 2012 at 01:52 PM (#4189791)
But the program has been punished, and harshly. The men in charge have had their reputations sullied (rightfully). At some point, Penn State should be allowed to attempt recovery, having separated themselves from the horrors of their past, right?


I agree. I have been absent for most of this discussion, so excuse me if I am repeating anything. The outcome seems pretty sensible, but I do not understand the point of focusing the punishment so much on the current team. I would have preferred a plan that allows them to compete, but does not allow the University to profit from it. I would have pegged the school's football budget to the mean of the bottom 5 Big 10 football budgets (or something similar), then allowed them to operate somewhat normally, albeit with some scholarship reductions and/or bowl restrictions. Any revenue generated by the program in excess of the mandated budget would go to the state higher ed budget, charities for underprivileged youth, etc.
   633. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: July 23, 2012 at 02:21 PM (#4189808)
They won't do it because it'll screw up their money this year, but the Big 10 ought to be very seriously considering expelling PSU from the conference. Long-term they can replace Penn St with another, less reprehensible program and the money comes back.
   634. JoeHova Posted: July 23, 2012 at 02:44 PM (#4189839)
They won't do it because it'll screw up their money this year, but the Big 10 ought to be very seriously considering expelling PSU from the conference. Long-term they can replace Penn St with another, less reprehensible program and the money comes back.

I don't think I really agree. They still let Germany be part of Europe. Any big organization/institution/country/whatever is at risk of something along these lines happening (not necessarily covering-up for a child molester but some sort of reflexive cover-up out of a desire to protect the organization). Kicking Penn State out of the Big Ten makes it seem as though there was something unique about that institution, which I don't agree with. I think Penn State should be encouraged/forced by the Big Ten, the NCAA, and whatever other associations it belongs to to clean house and take drastic steps to prevent anything like this from happening again but I don't think the students/alums/professors/coaches at the school are necessarily more reprehensible than their counterparts at any other college. Their leadership may have been, but it isn't like Penn State was the only place Spanier ever worked.
   635. Forsch 10 From Navarone (Dayn) Posted: July 23, 2012 at 02:47 PM (#4189846)
Had to tweet out that comment in 627. Just revolting.
   636. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: July 23, 2012 at 03:14 PM (#4189881)
They still let Germany be part of Europe.


Well, since it geographically is, they really had no choice. But politically, that's not actually true. They split the country in half, and shipped half of it to the other side of the Iron Curtain for forty-five years.

I don't think that Penn State is unique in certain respects, but I also don't think the punishment meted out by the NCAA is nearly harsh enough and expulsion from the Big 10 would (A) make up for that and (B) operate as a message to other Big 10 powerhouses that nobody is untouchable and this kind of #### needs to be kept on lockdown.

Also, I have no problem punishing the fans and students of Penn State at all. They should be.
   637. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 23, 2012 at 03:26 PM (#4189896)

Also, I have no problem punishing the fans and students of Penn State at all. They should be.


Well they are being punished. It does kinda seem like people are trying to top each other in how hard they can be on PSU. And it almost seems like some of the anger directed at PSU over their profits should really be directed at the NCAA system in general that makes billions of dollars off the sweat of largely uncompensated teenagers. The bad apples have been fired/put in jail/have passed. The people that ceded too much power to these men in reverence, will be punished by having decimated program sullied forever. The monetary profits the university made will have to be paid back. That punishment seems to fit the crime. I don't really see what expulsion from the Big Ten really accomplishes, or what the "death penalty" really accomplishes other than punishing a lot of people that had little to nothing to do with this.

I also think now that punishment has been meted out, its time to start moving on to "what can we do to ensure #### like this doesn't happen again?" And I think that is going to require a decline in importance of quasi-professional athletics on college campus which I don't see happening but would really like to see.
   638. JoeHova Posted: July 23, 2012 at 03:39 PM (#4189912)
Well, since it geographically is, they really had no choice. But politically, that's not actually true. They split the country in half, and shipped half of it to the other side of the Iron Curtain for forty-five years.

My point is that they weren't isolated or made a pariah (both victors (or, I guess, all 4, technically) of WWII badly wanted Germany on their side, hence the division). I don't see what doing that to Penn State would accomplish except to make it even more likely that the campus population would continue to exhibit an us-against-the-world mentality and resist efforts to change the culture.
   639. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: July 23, 2012 at 03:41 PM (#4189922)
<I don't see what doing that to Penn State would accomplish except to make it even more likely that the campus population would continue to exhibit an us-against-the-world mentality and resist efforts to change the culture.


Cripple the program for decades and make that attitude largely irrelevant? That's what I'm going for.
   640. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: July 23, 2012 at 03:55 PM (#4189945)
People like Voxter scare me.
   641. Lassus Posted: July 23, 2012 at 03:55 PM (#4189946)
How horrible would this be, though? I agree with DA Baracus, in that an actual "death penalty" (a year with no football)

I honestly didn't remember the Death Penalty was only one year. I think I assumed it was two or three.


People like Voxter scare me.

I disagree with Voxter plenty, but not so much here; and I understand what RoyalsRetro (with whom I agree with far more often) is saying about one-upmanship, but I honestly do think the punishment handed down was too light. YMMV, I certainly suppose.

   642. nick swisher hygiene Posted: July 23, 2012 at 03:58 PM (#4189954)

I'm with Voxter. One supplementary point: getting rid of football at Penn St should NOT be seen as too great a punishment or as massively unfair to students, professors, etc.

That is, if you truly believe the protestations of "football is not what this institution is REALLY about", then you should be more than willing to make football go the #### away, for decades or forever, given the horrific events incubated by the PSU program. If football exists in proper proportions, at a reasonable scale, then removing it can't be an excessive punishment.

But nobody really believes the protestations they mouth; everybody knows that football is what people really care about; everybody knows it's grown to a grossly disproportionate size--and it's that very swollen excess that protects it.

And so Penn St. football will not go the #### away.
   643. JoeHova Posted: July 23, 2012 at 04:01 PM (#4189957)
Cripple the program for decades and make that attitude largely irrelevant? That's what I'm going for.

But Penn State isn't just a football program, like a country isn't just a military.



I honestly didn't remember the Death Penalty was only one year. I think I assumed it was two or three.

In the famous instance, it was 2. The NCAA gave SMU one year. Then SMU felt they weren't ready to restart the program and took a 2nd year off.
   644. JoeHova Posted: July 23, 2012 at 04:03 PM (#4189960)
But nobody really believes the protestations they mouth; everybody knows that football is what people really care about; everybody knows it's grown to a grossly disproportionate size--and it's that very swollen excess that protects it.

This seems like you want to punish Penn State for the NCAA's sins. I don't agree with singling them out in that way, even for something as heinous as the cover-up/enabling of Sandusky's crimes. If the school voluntarily wanted to eliminate the football program, or drop down to 1-AA, I wouldn't have a problem with that. That would show a real desire to change the culture of their institution. But to have something like that imposed on them seems draconian and unlikely to sit well with Penn State people. Not that punishment requires the consent of the punished but in this case, most of the people being punished in such a drastic way would have had literally nothing to do with what they were being punished for.
   645. vortex of dissipation Posted: July 23, 2012 at 04:15 PM (#4189979)
They still let Germany be part of Europe.


To stay with the sports theme though, Germany (and Japan) were banned from the 1948 Olympics.
   646. JoeHova Posted: July 23, 2012 at 04:20 PM (#4189988)
To stay with the sports theme though, Germany (and Japan) were banned from the 1948 Olympics.

Interesting, I didn't realize that. Still, both were allowed back into the international community relatively soon.
   647. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: July 23, 2012 at 04:20 PM (#4189989)
They still let Germany be part of Europe.



Well, since it geographically is, they really had no choice. But politically, that's not actually true. They split the country in half, and shipped half of it to the other side of the Iron Curtain for forty-five years.


East and West Germany weren't allowed into the UN until 1973
   648. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: July 23, 2012 at 04:21 PM (#4189990)
There is virtually no chance that the Big Ten will kick PSU out or impose any further sanctions beyond what was announced today. Philadelphia represents one of the largest media markets for BTN.
   649. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: July 23, 2012 at 04:24 PM (#4189997)
People like Voxter scare me.


I'm harmless, I assure you.

Plenty of public universities do fine without football, or with only minor football programs. I'm sure Penn State could, too. In fact, the idea that it couldn't strikes me as much more frightening than the idea of killing the program entirely.
   650. JoeHova Posted: July 23, 2012 at 04:31 PM (#4190006)
Plenty of public universities do fine without football, or with only minor football programs. I'm sure Penn State could, too. In fact, the idea that it couldn't strikes me as much more frightening than the idea of killing the program entirely.

I think it would do fine without football. Some people are claiming that football subsidizes various other sports, which it may, but other non-football colleges do find a way to have plenty of sports teams. Who said the University wouldn't survive?
   651. JoeHova Posted: July 23, 2012 at 04:35 PM (#4190012)
East and West Germany weren't allowed into the UN until 1973

The UN didn't exist at the time Germany and Japan were ravaging the world. Not inviting someone to join is different than kicking them out. I didn't mention Germany to get into a big thing about postwar era geopolitics, I just wanted to say that permanently excluding large groups of people based on the actions of a subset of those people is pretty rare lately, even in the most extreme circumstances.
   652. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: July 23, 2012 at 04:39 PM (#4190015)
I suspect that whoever it was that was "frightened" by the fact that I'm unpersuaded by football's necessity to human endeavor thinks I'm somehow putting an institution of higher education at risk for violating NCAA rules. Or something. It's bullshit. Football has too much importance on campuses, and killing a high profile program for crimes this egregious shouldn't provoke outrage.

Don't worry, I have plenty of contempt for NCAA, too. But pretending as though PSU somehow isn't responsible for this specific problem is a whitewash.
   653. Topher Posted: July 23, 2012 at 04:46 PM (#4190024)
There are a lot of academic benefits to Big Ten membership.

Killing football and/or the relationship with the Big Ten would hurt the academic reputation of the university. That impacts all current students, all alumni, and recruiting future students.

I doubt the hit would be significant, but there would be a hit. Considering how much importance is given to the various rankings, I can't see Penn State making a decision that would cause its spot to drop, even if it was only a few notches.
   654. JoeHova Posted: July 23, 2012 at 04:50 PM (#4190031)
But pretending as though PSU somehow isn't responsible for this specific problem is a whitewash.

I'm not saying they're not responsible. They are responsible. I don't want to act like they're unique though. Something similar could have happened on a lot of campuses in a lot of different situations. Maybe not quite as bad as what happened at Penn State but the ingredients for this kind of travesty are present almost everywhere in society. To just eliminate Penn State from the public consciousness and then forget about that aspect of the tragedy is not something I'm in favor of.
   655. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: July 23, 2012 at 04:51 PM (#4190033)
There's no particular reason the school couldn't participate in the CIC without playing sports in the Big 10. The idea that academics should be tied to football in this way is almost certainly deleterious to higher education. And I see no reason why killing football would damage its academic standing any more than the scandal already has.
   656. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: July 23, 2012 at 04:53 PM (#4190034)
To just eliminate Penn State from the public consciousness and then forget about that aspect of the tragedy is not something I'm in favor of.


That strikes me as really tortured logic. Let them keep playing so other teams that also keep playing won't forget they exist? Nobody would forget PSU's extermination soon.
   657. Topher Posted: July 23, 2012 at 04:58 PM (#4190037)
There's no particular reason the school couldn't participate in the CIC without playing sports in the Big 10.


Agreed. I just think there is zero chance of it being allowed by the other member schools. I'd like to think I'm wrong about that.
   658. billyshears Posted: July 23, 2012 at 04:59 PM (#4190040)
Not that punishment requires the consent of the punished but in this case, most of the people being punished in such a drastic way would have had literally nothing to do with what they were being punished for.


Most of the people who feel like they are being punished in this case aren't actually being punished. The NCAA ensured that current athletes would suffer no harm. The current coaches have their contracts. That leaves the students/fans/community at large. The students will be fine - the leveling of 1 years' worth of football revenue is not going to cripple the university. As for the fans/community, well, Penn State does not have a god given right to have a kick ass football team. Having to root for a team that might get crushed by Northwestern is not a punishment. I get it - it sucks for fans that they will be unable to derive as much enjoyment from Penn State football as they did in the past, but we have to expand the definition of punishment awfully far so that something that has no tangible effect on somebody constitutes punishment.
   659. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: July 23, 2012 at 05:22 PM (#4190053)
Most of the people who feel like they are being punished in this case aren't actually being punished. The NCAA ensured that current athletes would suffer no harm. The current coaches have their contracts. That leaves the students/fans/community at large. The students will be fine - the leveling of 1 years' worth of football revenue is not going to cripple the university. As for the fans/community, well, Penn State does not have a god given right to have a kick ass football team. Having to root for a team that might get crushed by Northwestern is not a punishment. I get it - it sucks for fans that they will be unable to derive as much enjoyment from Penn State football as they did in the past, but we have to expand the definition of punishment awfully far so that something that has no tangible effect on somebody constitutes punishment.


QFT.
   660. zenbitz Posted: July 23, 2012 at 05:46 PM (#4190074)
I guess if yu have a bunch of folks saying the punishment is 'too light' and another saying it was 'too harsh' it was probably about right. Maybe.
   661. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: July 23, 2012 at 05:52 PM (#4190078)
The NCAA ensured that current athletes would suffer no harm.

Heh, good one.
   662. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: July 23, 2012 at 05:57 PM (#4190088)
Heh, good one.


All right, explain how they're materially harmed in ways that actually matter.
   663. JoeHova Posted: July 23, 2012 at 05:58 PM (#4190089)
Most of the people who feel like they are being punished in this case aren't actually being punished.

I was talking about if they get kicked out of the Big Ten, which is the idea I was disagreeing with. That would definitely punish the athletes and coaches in other sports, and losing the CIC aspect of Big Ten membership would hurt the academics of Penn State, which affects all students, alums, and professors.


That strikes me as really tortured logic. Let them keep playing so other teams that also keep playing won't forget they exist? Nobody would forget PSU's extermination soon.

You brought up whitewashing. What would throwing Penn State out of the Big Ten and eliminating their football program be if not a whitewashing? "Exterminating" them is like expecting the death of a criminal to eliminate crime. Penn State is probably already one of the least likely places for something like this to ever happen again. So, what does "exterminating" them really accomplish?

I guess I don't really see this scandal as being inherent to Penn State so much as I see it being possible in any big organization. If people view themselves as being indebted to the organization (whether for money, respect, power, whatever) they will sometimes try to protect (what they view as protecting, anyway) the organization. There have been far too many cover-ups in U.S. and world history to be able to view this as something unique. Certain circumstances at Penn State probably allowed this situation to get worse than it would have in other places but it's hardly unusual for powerful people to take idiotic steps to try to protect their brand. My point is that the culture in a lot places is insular and prone to hero worship. Penn State is not at all unique in that regard and so I don't view them as needing to be collectively punished to the extent that some people are advocating.
   664. Sunday silence Posted: July 23, 2012 at 06:41 PM (#4190166)
Seems like one of the arguments I have seen against this is that the NCAA is overstepping its jurisdiction with its ruling.


THe first thing that hit me is whether this would leave the NCAA vulnerable to a Due Process law suit by PSU. I am saying this having read no news whatsoever on todays punishment. Perhaps PSU has already said they are going along with it. But no hearing? no appeals? Doesnt sound kosher under due process.

It's also interesting that a few people upthread have said that we should make sure this can NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN AT PSU. As opposed to happening at any college. I guess that's impossible, huh? So we should make the impossible happen at PSU.
   665. bunyon Posted: July 23, 2012 at 06:47 PM (#4190178)
My take on it is that the punishment should indicate that covering something like what they covered up is worse than not controlling the boosters or making a few phone calls outside the indicated dates. If the punishment is the same as for an egregious recruiting violation, you can bet that the next coach will not have punishment as a reason not to coverup something like this.

Now, that coach may simply be a decent human being but, given the state of NCAA athletics, I don't want to rely on that.


THis punishment probably does that. So, it is good enough. I would rather have seen more but it is sufficient.
   666. Sunday silence Posted: July 23, 2012 at 07:25 PM (#4190241)
The Paterno family said on Monday the NCAA's actions "defame the legacy and contributions of a great coach and educator without any input from our family or those who knew him best." [source: Reuters]


His family is like totally tone deaf to all this, huh? Just shut the hell up for awhile would be a much better strategy than trying to fight this. Just say "yeah, these kids suffered more than we can ever know and the victories dont compare with that in any way. We accept whatever the NCAA says."

Again, I dont think people should be punished for being stupid or tone deaf, but these people are so wrapped up in this they dont get it.
   667. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 23, 2012 at 08:15 PM (#4190292)
664/SA - speculation is that this was a plea bargain of sorts
   668. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: July 23, 2012 at 08:55 PM (#4190337)
"Exterminating" them is like expecting the death of a criminal to eliminate crime.


I just don't think that holds. Crimes are often committed by sociopaths, who have very little sensitivity to negative reinforcement. Colleges are not generally run by sociopaths, and are liable to be very sensitive to deterrents.
   669. Rafael Bellylard: Built like a Panda. Posted: July 23, 2012 at 08:57 PM (#4190341)
As one of those who wanted to see Penn State get the Death Penalty, I will admit I'm satisfied with the sanctions handed down.

As far as how this will effect Penn State competitively, I think they can look at University of Indiana's last 10 years and see their future.
   670. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:01 PM (#4190346)
As far as how this will effect Penn State competitively, I think they can look at University of Indiana's last 10 years and see their future.


The what now?
   671. madvillain Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:06 PM (#4190353)
The PSU cult can't differentiate (because it would invalidate their entire premise that they are being unduly punished for the actions of one man) between Sandusky's crimes and the crimes of their coach and administration.

PSU isn't being punished for what Sandusky did, they are being punished for covering up what Sandusky did.

The oft cited argument of the cultists, that the grand jury didn't charge JoePa, is irrelevant. Had the grand jury had access to the emails in the Freeh report, they might have acted differently.
   672. Rafael Bellylard: Built like a Panda. Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:08 PM (#4190360)
The what now?


My point exactly.
   673. madvillain Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:10 PM (#4190361)
In other crap news, Fitz Toussaint decided to drive drunk last night and Frank Clark decided it would be a good idea to steal a macbook air from the Michigan dorms. What a great way to take the air out of the season opener guys. Clark is a marginal player that was expected to contribute a bit at weak side end, Fitz however, is a clear number 1 on the depth chart at RB and is a probably an NFL mid round draft pick if he has a good season.

I suspect he'll be held out of the 'bama game and run a bunch of stairs in the interim. Same for Clark, although this might not be the 1st strike against Clark from the rumors around the program. Clark is an intriguing athlete, and while not expected to be a clear cut starter this year, his upside is large. It would be a shame to lose him. Hopefully he can get his act together.
   674. Sunday silence Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:12 PM (#4190363)
retribution is (of course) a legitimate grounds for punishment.


Is this in Blackstone's COmmentaries or something?

In a related question: What the hell did Centenary ever do to lose its basketball program for what like 7 years in the early 70s? I have this book on the NCAA tournament and the year end summary always ends with "On probation: Cententary..." I suppose I will google it now that I think of it, perhaps others can shed some light here.
   675. Every Inge Counts Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:18 PM (#4190368)
In other crap news, Fitz Toussaint decided to drive drunk last night and Frank Clark decided it would be a good idea to steal a macbook air from the Michigan dorms. What a great way to take the air out of the season opener guys. Clark is a marginal player that was expected to contribute a bit at weak side end, Fitz however, is a clear number 1 on the depth chart at RB and is a probably an NFL mid round draft pick if he has a good season


Losing Toussaint for the opener would be huge.
   676. madvillain Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:37 PM (#4190388)
Losing Toussaint for the opener would be huge.


Yea, we were probably screwed anyways, now we are certainly screwed. I can see something like 28-3 as the final. Bama is on another level than Michigan right now and this only furthers the divide. The only hope we have is a herculean effort from the defense and/or a magical D-Rob game in which he throws nothing off his back foot and doesn't get injured AT ALL, while running 15+ times.

Those things aren't likely. Michigan's roster is still in rebuild mode from the end of the Carr years and the RR years. Hoke is off to a great start all-around, but the team won't be "his" until 2018.
   677. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:42 PM (#4190395)
I'd bet PSU still finishes better off than IU over the next decade.
   678. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: July 23, 2012 at 09:45 PM (#4190399)
What the hell did Centenary ever do to lose its basketball program for what like 7 years in the early 70s?


According to the Wikipedia page for Robert Parish, it was a pissing match over test scores in which they basically played chicken with the NCAA and lost:

Parish took a standardized test that did not fit the NCAA's formula; Centenary converted his score to an equivalent that would fit the formula, which it had done for 12 other athletes in the previous two years. This was a violation of NCAA regulations; however, the NCAA had not paid any attention to the school's actions before Parish's recruitment. Shortly before Parish was to enroll, the NCAA notified Centenary that he and four other basketball players whose test scores had been converted were ineligible to play there, but said that the school would not be subject to penalty if it rescinded the five scholarships. Centenary argued that the rule did not say that the school could not convert the scores of Parish and the other players . . . When Centenary refused to pull the scholarships . . .[t]he school's basketball program was put on probation for 6 years, during which time it was not only barred from postseason play, but its results and statistics were excluded from weekly statistics and its existence was not acknowledged in the NCAA's annual press guides.


Around the same time, SW Louisiana St was given the death penalty for falsifying transcripts.
   679. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: July 23, 2012 at 11:02 PM (#4190508)
Agreed with 676. Its time for a few stairs and an evening om the sidelines to teach Fitz that blowing an .08 is completely stupid, but it means they're going to get rolled by Bama. Oh well, the talent isn't there yet anyways. Couple of years away. As for Clark, I don't think thieves should be representing the program, no matter how athletic. This is Michigan, fergodssakes.
   680. I am going to be Frank Posted: July 23, 2012 at 11:19 PM (#4190512)
I'm a little worried about the 'Bama game turning into another Mississippi State disaster. Even with Fitz, Michigan wasn't likely to gain much yardage against 'Bama.
   681. The Keith Law Blog Blah Blah (battlekow) Posted: July 23, 2012 at 11:53 PM (#4190519)
Agreed. I just think there is zero chance of it being allowed by the other member schools. I'd like to think I'm wrong about that.

The University of Chicago is still in the CIC, despite dropping football in 1939.
   682. Sunday silence Posted: July 23, 2012 at 11:59 PM (#4190522)
voxter: thanks for explanation of the Centenary situation; the best I could come up with was a copy of the circuit decision affirming the Dist Ct. I didnt get the details on the test etc.
   683. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: July 24, 2012 at 12:13 AM (#4190529)
I'm a little worried about the 'Bama game turning into another Mississippi State disaster. Even with Fitz, Michigan wasn't likely to gain much yardage against 'Bama.

Depends how you define disaster. I can't imagine Bama getting out of the 20's, but I could easily see Michigan scoring a touchdown or less. I think everyone sort of expects 24-3 or thereabouts, so if that's what we end up with, meh. They're not going to win the NC this year anyways, so whaddayagonnado. I'd be happy if they just take down Ohio @Ohio.
   684. Every Inge Counts Posted: July 24, 2012 at 01:58 AM (#4190567)
I mean I can imagine Alabama getting out of the 20s, but I don't think it will be like Mississippi State....I can see it being more like the Alabama-Penn State games from the last 2 seasons.
   685. bunyon Posted: July 24, 2012 at 07:36 AM (#4190612)
This is Michigan, fergodssakes.

We are Penn State.

The NCAA uses its power to control schools through a completely made-up grouping of schools academically. Grouping schools into conferences seems so normal to us that we don't stop and consider that the relationship is completely arbitrary. Penn State would lose academic standing if it left the Big 10 simply because we've all decided to include such trivial matters in our academic rankings.
   686. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: July 24, 2012 at 08:10 AM (#4190619)
I'd bet PSU still finishes better off than IU over the next decade.

Agreed.

   687. Eddo Posted: July 24, 2012 at 08:57 AM (#4190638)
The NCAA uses its power to control schools through a completely made-up grouping of schools academically. Grouping schools into conferences seems so normal to us that we don't stop and consider that the relationship is completely arbitrary. Penn State would lose academic standing if it left the Big 10 simply because we've all decided to include such trivial matters in our academic rankings.

Is this correct? I think it's actually the other way around - the conferences hold more power over the NCAA than the NCAA does over them, no?

Being grouped in the Big Ten has academic cachet because the conference itself has academic standards that most (all?) of the other major conferences don't have. The NCAA does not control that one bit.

It's true that leaving the Big Ten doesn't have to lead to a drop in academic standing, as has been pointed out with regards to the University of Chicago (which is the freaking University of Chicago, people!). However, for a school like Penn State, which does not have the U of C pedigree (which by no means is an insult), no longer being associated with the most prestigious academic coalition of large universities in its region could certainly have consequences.
   688. bunyon Posted: July 24, 2012 at 09:01 AM (#4190643)
no longer being associated with the most prestigious academic coalition of large universities in its region could certainly have consequences.

Are there no other schools in the region that are better than the Big 10 schools? My point is that the grouping is based on athletics, from which we derive academic standing. The academics of Penn State change not a whit if they leave the Big 10. It's entirely a problem of perception.
   689. Eddo Posted: July 24, 2012 at 09:11 AM (#4190648)
Are there no other schools in the region that are better than the Big 10 schools? My point is that the grouping is based on athletics, from which we derive academic standing. The academics of Penn State change not a whit if they leave the Big 10. It's entirely a problem of perception.

Of course the grouping is based on athletics. However, there still are academic qualifiers in place; it's the reason schools like Cincinnati, Pitt, and West Virginia (three schools off the top of my head) were not seriously considered for entry to the Big Ten.

I'm not totally sure what you're arguing. Is it that the Big Ten schools aren't generally better academically than other big conference schools? Or that it's only the Big Ten name that props up the academics of these schools? I'm honestly curious.
   690. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: July 24, 2012 at 09:30 AM (#4190656)
The grouping is based on geography, athletics, academics, mission, etc. The grouping is not arbitrary. Universities are constantly aligning themselves and comparing themselves to peer schools in many ways, athletic conferences are just one way. The CIC provides real benefits, so to claim PSU's academics will "change not a whit" if they leave the Big 10 is false.

   691. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: July 24, 2012 at 09:35 AM (#4190663)
This is Michigan, fergodssakes.

We are Penn State.


Indeed. Having read Three and Out: Rich Rodriguez and the Michigan Wolverines in the Crucible of College Football (admittedly written from a standpoint of sympathy toward the not-at-all-admirable Rodriguez) a couple of months ago, the whole "Michigan Man" ethos strikes me as downright delusional.

Though I suppose the alumni of any university of much repute are infested with similar insularity, arrogance & self-obsession (see also, down here: Alabama, University of); it's enough to make me extremely happy about having gone to a nondescript rural Arkansas cow college with no claim to fame whatsoever other than having, I suppose, produced Tommy Tuberville &, ummm, some guy who thinks he's a talking mongoose.
   692. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 24, 2012 at 09:37 AM (#4190665)

Are there no other schools in the region that are better than the Big 10 schools? My point is that the grouping is based on athletics, from which we derive academic standing. The academics of Penn State change not a whit if they leave the Big 10. It's entirely a problem of perception.


Well of course, but perception is a pretty big deal isn't it? Its not like students, donors, grant-givers, actively use some sort of WAR-like objective measurement of academics.
   693. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: July 24, 2012 at 09:39 AM (#4190667)
This is Michigan, fergodssakes.

We are Penn State.


Indeed. Having read Three and Out: Rich Rodriguez and the Michigan Wolverines in the Crucible of College Football (admittedly written from a standpoint of sympathy toward the not-at-all-admirable Rodriguez) a couple of months ago, the whole "Michigan Man" ethos strikes me as very, very hollow. Though I suppose the alumni of any university of much repute is infested with similar insularity, arrogance & self-obsession (see also, down here: Alabama, University of); it's enough to make me extremely happy about having gone to a diminutive, utterly nondescript backwoods Arkansas cow college with no claim to fame whatsoever other than having, I suppose, produced Tommy Tuberville &, ummm, some guy who thinks he's a talking mongoose.
   694. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: July 24, 2012 at 10:00 AM (#4190678)
The Pac 10 and Big 10 have the highest academic standards in the country, and the admission of Colorado was partly contingent on its getting its academics up to snuff, I think. The thing is, I'm not sure that many people really know or care about that.

And again, there's no reason PSU couldn't remain in the CIC without playing Big 10 sports. Beyond that, I suspect that this scandal -- the coverup much more than the initial crime -- is going to damage the institution's reputation in all fields, probably more than expulsion from its conference would.

How were PSU's academics back when they were independent?
   695. billyshears Posted: July 24, 2012 at 10:13 AM (#4190687)
The Pac 10 and Big 10 have the highest academic standards in the country, and the admission of Colorado was partly contingent on its getting its academics up to snuff, I think. The thing is, I'm not sure that many people really know or care about that.


I, for one, didn't know this. How are these standards applied? Are they applied school wide generally, or to the athletic program specifically?
   696. Eddo Posted: July 24, 2012 at 10:18 AM (#4190695)
I, for one, didn't know this. How are these standards applied? Are they applied school wide generally, or to the athletic program specifically?

School-wide. Or at least that's how it usually is when you hear these type of statements.

You will occasionally hear academic standing of athletes, but I don't believe that's what Voxter is citing here. I know I haven't been.
   697. I am going to be Frank Posted: July 24, 2012 at 10:34 AM (#4190701)
There was pretty big worry that Nebraska would not be invited to the Big 10 because they not part of the AAU, but money trumps all.
   698. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: July 24, 2012 at 10:35 AM (#4190702)
How were PSU's academics back when they were independent?

I've seen lots of bragging about how their research revenues have jumped since joining the Big Ten, but I don't know how it compares to the average R1 school.
   699. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: July 24, 2012 at 10:36 AM (#4190705)
There was pretty big worry that Nebraska would not be invited to the Big 10 because they not part of the AAU, but money trumps all.

They were AAU upon admittance. Then became the first to be kicked out.
   700. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: July 24, 2012 at 10:38 AM (#4190707)
Nebraska was voted out of the AAU just after joining the Big Ten.

EDIT: coke owed

DOUBLE EDIT: technically Nebraska lost its status before beginning membership in the Big Ten but after the official offer and acceptance of membership.
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