Piggies: eight arms to hold you.
On June 19, the Rockies were 25-40 and their starting pitchers were historically awful. At that point they switched to a four-man paired rotation, believing there was never a better time to examine the 75-pitch-limit model. Sixty-four games later, the Rockies have shown enough improvement that they will continue using a form of the four-man rotation moving into next season, according to general manager Dan O’Dowd…
Rather than four starters and three “piggyback” relievers, the Rockies ideally would like to employ an octopus: eight arms.
There would be four starters on a 75-pitch count and four “hybrid” pitchers, trained starters limited to 50 pitches. Two pitchers, in essence, would be asked to perform the previous job of a starter — get the team as deep as possible into a game… Relievers have been told that it could work with a right-hander starter followed by a left-handed piggybacker. And vice versa… The Rockies have discussed variations of the model, allowing for elasticity based on performance — if a starting pitcher emerges as an ace, he could work on a regular four-day rest schedule with more pitches at his disposal — but they seem committed to going forward with it…
the piggyback reliever doesn’t have to pitch after the starter. With left-handers Adrian Gonzalez and Andre Ethier sandwiching Hanley Ramirez, Tracy used Matt Reynolds to put down the sixth inning.
This offered a glimpse into the future. If the Rockies use eight starters (four conventional, four hybrids), they could have two middlemen (such as Josh Roenicke and Adam Ottavino), a pair of setup arms and a closer. That would require carrying a 13-man staff, which could compromise the bench.
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1. Dale Sams Posted: August 30, 2012 at 09:16 PM (#4223132)I'm guessing nothing by hot air escaped from the explosion.
No one was injured.
Wow, I absolutely LOVE this part. Hook the starter and bring in a fireman LOOGY for a middle inning, then go to what's called here a 'hybrid' guy to get to the 9th. That is too cool.
Two setup pitchers? Just picked an NL game at random: the Giants, in their win, used 142 pitches. If the goal is to get 110-130 pitches out of your first two pitchers, how much pitching would the setup men actually do?
I was thinking the same thing. Imagine a world where you would actually use your best pitcher available for that particular situation? An earth shattering discovery!
Our way was to make sure one of the two "middle" guys was a swingman/long man as opposed to a general RP. The type that can do both, like a Kyle Kendrick/Travis Blackley-type.
However, I can't imagine a strategy is a good one if you're actively hopeful to add Kyle Kendrick/Travis Blackley types.
One other thing - if/when someone gets injured, how do they fill the gap? Is the AAA team going to be using a similar rotation plan? I doubt it's very easy for a pitcher to switch from a five/six-day routine to a four/five-day routine on short notice if he's called up.
4 pairs of starters, going 4-5 innings. One starts, the other gets in after 4, 5 if starter is really efficient. Next turn, they change places.
Two relievers capable of pitching 9th, or going between starters, if starter is pulled in the middle of an inning.
One reliever capable of going 5 innings, for extras and injuries.
AAA - someone capable of replacing one of starters or relievers in case of injury. (nice option is if you have two AAA guys with options who you can use so that every time LR is tired, he goes down and the other one takes his place).
Also, 4-day rotation means pitch - rest - throw day - rest - pitch, and starters are capable of throwing one inning on their throwing day.
Added bonus: 11 pitchers means 14 position players - extended bench.
I don't know if you do have to commit to it like that, but I don't think anybody knows anything about how it's going to play out. I know it's fascinating.
I sort of hope nobody reaches 100.
April 4.57, 5.03, 3.84
May 5.66, 6.50, 4.27
June 5.88, 7.57, 4.24
July 5.16, 6.39, 3.71
Aug 4.70, 4.33, 5.07
I'm not seeing the miracle here. August has been a pretty good month but so what?
I told you before, you can't do that!
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/split.cgi?t=p&team=COL&year=2012
I think it's a good idea for the 4th/5th SP spots, but you're never going to develop or attract (FA) any really good SPs limiting them to 75 pitches.
I'd go with 3 regular starters, 4 SPs/long-men used in the 4/5 spots based on matchups, and 4 short-RPs.
Because you are never, ever going to get a top flight free agent pitcher to agree to sign on to take part in this cockamamie system.
EDIT: And snapper beat me to my point.
The Rockies are going to have a problem landing top flight talent, because it's Colorado.
How will they know if they have an ace if they never let him pitch past the 5th? Do they plan to stretch out guys who still look good at 75 pitches? I don't see how you do that in this construct.
FWIW, as we head into September, the Rockies still don't have a single pitcher who's thrown 100+ innings this year. Among pitchers who will pitch again for the team this year, Jeff Francis is at 82.2, Alex White has 77, and Josh Roenicke has 76.1.
I sort of hope nobody reaches 100.
This. Please please please.
If they sign a guy to be an ace, they will let him start the season in a traditional pattern. If a guy constantly goes 5 innings with a 2.00 era or less, they will probably be willing to stretch him out also. The great thing about what the Rockies are doing is that they seem pretty reasonable with willing to modify it based upon the circumstances that pop up.
I think the assumption that they will not be flexible about that is a bit off-base, considering that they specifically state that they will be flexible about that.
It seems to make a certain amount of sense for a team in their position. They don't have anyone that has really demonstrated that he can be consistently effective in a standard SP role at the MLB level. Given that pitching well tends to be easier for those asked to pitch less, it might let them get more effective innings out of a collection of AAAA pitchers. And it might also be a decent way to develop your young pitchers if you are forced to rush them to the majors because your MLB roster sucks.
It seems to make a certain amount of sense for a team in their position. They don't have anyone that has really demonstrated that he can be consistently effective in a standard SP role at the MLB level. Given that pitching well tends to be easier for those asked to pitch less, it might let them get more effective innings out of a collection of AAAA pitchers. And it might also be a decent way to develop your young pitchers if you are forced to rush them to the majors because your MLB roster sucks.
OK, but if you're going to be flexible, why not just let guys pitch as long as they're effective.
If you're going to be flexible with the 75 and 50 pitch limits, you're basically just saying we're willing to have a quick hook on SPs, b/c we've got a bunch of long relievers.
Or saying that we don't want to leave starters in long enough to lose effectiveness, even if they lose effectiveness at ~75 pitches, so we're going to make sure we've got a bunch of long relievers, and we're going to make sure our long relievers get regular work.
I think it's a matter of emphasis and general procedure. The pitchers expect to be in a 4-man rotation and have a 75-pitch limit. Guys who are pitching well may be allowed to exceed the 75-pitch limit--they've done that this year from time to time and the pitcher was usually given an extra day of rest (that is, 4 days). However, even under the 4-man, the starters have been so horrible, it hasn't come up that often.
They've put a lot of emphasis on how the pitch limit generally keeps the guy from going through the order a 3rd time, but that seems to vary a lot by pitcher--Francis has at least started a 3rd time through the order (and the 1st half of the order are the guys you'd think they'd want to avoid) a bunch of times.
Yeah, well if all you have is shitty pitchers, no system is going to work.
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