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Thursday, October 10, 2019

Column: MLB needs to put Shoeless Joe back in the game

GREENVILLE, S.C. (AP) — In a different time, it was an attractive little two-bedroom home, constructed in the early 1940s out of red brick and owned by one of the greatest players ever to grace the diamond, a towering yet tragic figure who lived the last half of his life and went to his grave as a pariah, shunned and scorned by the national pastime.

Now it’s a museum, right across the street from Greenville’s retro minor league ballpark, dedicated to preserving the memory of the man who once lived within its walls.

Shoeless Joe Jackson.

“It is one of the greatest stories,” says Michael Wallach, who leads the museum’s board of directors. “So many of the baseball players in the Hall of Fame, their story is their career. Joe has three parts to his story: before, during and after. All three are romantic stories.”

Well, this is the centennial, so we really shouldn’t be surprised that this idea would pop up again….

 

QLE Posted: October 10, 2019 at 12:22 AM | 23 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: bad ideas, black sox, shoeless joe jackson

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   1. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: October 10, 2019 at 06:43 AM (#5888724)
Why is this guy conflating reinstatement and forgiveness? They’re totally different things.
   2. My name is RMc and I feel extremely affected Posted: October 10, 2019 at 06:50 AM (#5888726)
No.
   3. bachslunch Posted: October 10, 2019 at 08:11 AM (#5888740)
Hell no.
   4. Greg K Posted: October 10, 2019 at 09:28 AM (#5888756)
I don't care how good he was, with all the pitchers throwing 100 MPH I'm not sure a 131 year old corpse will have the bat speed to survive in today's game.
   5. Itchy Row Posted: October 10, 2019 at 09:35 AM (#5888763)
If 131-year-old Shoeless Corpse had been an option, Dave Roberts would have let him pitch a second inning last night.
   6. Rusty Priske Posted: October 10, 2019 at 09:56 AM (#5888774)
He should be indicted into the Hall.

I am in the 'Pete Rose once he is dead' camp, and Jackson is well past that.
   7. Traderdave Posted: October 10, 2019 at 10:27 AM (#5888787)
Taking money to throw a World Series is a greater crime than betting on a game, but both are OBVIOUSLY and INCONTROVERTIBLY unpardonable offenses.

   8. Jose is an Absurd Time Cube Posted: October 10, 2019 at 10:29 AM (#5888790)
He should be indicted into the Hall.

I am in the 'Pete Rose once he is dead' camp, and Jackson is well past that.


There is a wonderful spelling error in there.
   9. kwarren Posted: October 10, 2019 at 11:47 AM (#5888845)
Or a cute "intentional pun" :)
   10. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: October 10, 2019 at 01:02 PM (#5888937)
He conspired with gamblers and accepted money TO PURPOSELY LOSE THE WORLD SERIES.

The absolute best spin on it is that he conspired, got his money, then screwed over his fellow conspirators.

He should never be reinstated.
   11. Cris E Posted: October 10, 2019 at 01:57 PM (#5888978)
No Joe. No Pete. If you like good stories then these are better for being tragedies than if they were watered down non-redemptive PR stunts.
   12. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 10, 2019 at 02:09 PM (#5888983)
Why does anyone think the decision is open to reconsideration 100 years later? What next, redoing the Treaty of Versailles at Germany’s request?
   13. caspian88 Posted: October 10, 2019 at 02:17 PM (#5888986)
Jackson's memory is actually helped by his being permanently banned. How many people today actually know who stars as big as Lajoie, Collins, Hornsby, or Wagner were?
   14. Rusty Priske Posted: October 10, 2019 at 03:05 PM (#5889010)
I wish I could claim it was intentional. Freudian Typo?
   15. Rusty Priske Posted: October 10, 2019 at 03:06 PM (#5889011)
Note, I never said they should be pardoned - just that they should be in the Hall of Fame. Recognize their accomplishments as well as their failings.
   16. GregD Posted: October 10, 2019 at 03:10 PM (#5889016)
Note, I never said they should be pardoned - just that they should be in the Hall of Fame. Recognize their accomplishments as well as their failings.
Possible compromise? Hall of Infamy in Middlefield for the people who did the most to damage baseball. Jackson and Rose in first induction class.
   17. John Northey Posted: October 10, 2019 at 05:35 PM (#5889090)
Can't find the quote, but as I recall Bill James said (and I agree 100%) that once you have put every major leaguer into the hall of fame, then every minor leaguer, then every college player, and everyone who ever played little league then and only then would I accept Shoeless Joe Jackson and Pete Rose going into the HOF (while holding my nose) as those others didn't break the #1 rule in baseball, do not bet on your games (well some did and those ones go in with Jackson & Rose).
   18. John Northey Posted: October 10, 2019 at 05:37 PM (#5889092)
As to being in the HOF I'd be willing to bet (no pun intended) a lot of stuff of Jackson & Rose's in in the HOF as parts of displays but giving them the highest honor (not that it is much of one anymore with guys like Baines in there) is too much imo.
   19. QLE Posted: October 10, 2019 at 06:17 PM (#5889113)
The absolute best spin on it is that he conspired, got his money, then screwed over his fellow conspirators.


It really doesn't help that aspects of that spin fall apart when one looks at his batting, at-bat by at-bat, as follows:

Game 1: Reaches on an error in the 2nd and ultimately scores a run as the leadoff hitter; grounds out with no one on in 4th; grounds out with runners on first and second in the 6th; flies out batting leadoff in the 9th.

Game 2: Doubles batting leadoff in the 2nd; singles with a runner on first in the 4th; struck out looking with a runner on second in the 6th; singles (and ultimately reaches second on a throwing error) with no one on in the 8th.

Game 3: One of the Dickey Kerr games (for which I've seen questions raised as for whether or not the Black Sox tried as hard to lose, as an honest pitcher would make such efforts more obvious); singles batting leadoff in the 2nd and ultimately scored a run; bunts out with runners on first and second in the 3rd; singles batting leadoff in the 6th and is then caught stealing.

Game 4: Doubles batting leadoff in the 2nd; reaches on an error by the second baseman with a runner on second in the 3rd; grounds out batting leadoff in the 6th; struck out with nobody on in the 8th.

Game 5: Popped out with runners on first and third in the 1st; grounded out with nobody on in the 4th; grounded out batting leadoff in the 7th; grounded out with a runner on third to end the game in the 9th.

Game 6: The other Dickey Kerr game; popped out with a runner on first in the 1st; fouled out to the catcher with nobody on in the 4th; singled with a runner on second in the 6th and ultimately scored a run; walked batting leadoff in the 8th; singled with a runner on second in the 10th.

Game 7: The game the Black Sox allegedly tried to win when the gamblers wouldn't pay up in full; singled with a runner on second in the 1st (though the description of the play seems somewhat odd); singles with a runner on second in the 3rd and is forced out at the next at-bat; reached on error by the second baseman with runners at first and second in the 5th; grounded out with no one on in the 7th.

Game 8: Popped out with runners on second and third in the 1st; home run with no one on in the 3rd; flied out with a runner on first in the 6th; doubled with runners on second and third in the 8th (and the White Sox already down 10 to 1); grounded out with runners on second and third in the 9th to end the World Series.

Overall, this is not a record that seems to confirm honest play- he gets a lot of hits when there's no one else on base, but declines visibly when there are runners on base, especially in circumstances where those runs could have made a difference. Moreover, this is a relatively brief investigation- I have to wonder what looking either at his fielding or at these at-bats with more detail would suggest.
   20. My name is RMc and I feel extremely affected Posted: October 10, 2019 at 07:11 PM (#5889125)
What next, redoing the Treaty of Versailles at Germany’s request?

Fun fact: Germany finally repaid the last of the WW1 reparations in 2010. (They're apparently still paying WW2 reparations.)
   21. cardsfanboy Posted: October 10, 2019 at 07:35 PM (#5889128)
I fully think Joe is guilty, and Pete even moreso.... (and Pete is clearly a worse human being than Joe) but I just don't see a reason to not have them inducted (that freudian slip above was awesome, to the point that I assumed it was intentional) into the hof. Even while Pete is alive. I'm not as big on the sporadic and inconsistent use of the character clause personally so that is a big part of it, but Pete and Joe are so far over the line that it trumps their crime in my opinion. (and yes I know, I'm a guy who half ass opposes Dick Allen because of the character clause...but to me that seems much iffier)
   22. Red Voodooin Posted: October 10, 2019 at 08:21 PM (#5889140)
The problem with James' argument laid out in 17 is that there are almost certainly other HoFers who threw games and gambled on their teams. The Cobb/Speaker thing was almost certainly true, IMO, and covered up by Landis and owners.
   23. Red Voodooin Posted: October 10, 2019 at 08:24 PM (#5889142)
Also I'm pretty sure James was writing about Hal Chase, not Jackson or Rose.

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