Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Wednesday, July 08, 2009

Crew chief: Umpire told Jeter he was tagged by Rolen in stolen base attempt

Hirschbeck spoke to Foster on Tuesday and got a different version. Here’s what Hirschbeck said Foster told Jeter at the time: “The ball beat you, and I had him tagging you.”

“I don’t see a problem with that,” Hirschbeck said. “Sometimes when tempers flare, you don’t hear everything that’s said.”

Yankees manager Joe Girardi joined the argument with Jeter and was ejected. Hirschbeck, however, said Girardi was tossed for complaining about a call Sunday.

happysky Posted: July 08, 2009 at 06:07 AM | 147 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: yankees

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 1 of 2 pages  1 2 > 
   1. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: July 08, 2009 at 10:53 AM (#3245545)
“I don’t see a problem with that,” Hirschbeck said. “Sometimes when tempers flare, you don’t hear everything that’s said.”
And sometimes a guy will tell a different story to his boss after being ridiculed by the media all night.

Hey, maybe that's what Foster really said. But it's ridiculous to assume that he'd tell Hirschbeck the truth if he actually said what Jeter said he said.
   2. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: July 08, 2009 at 11:26 AM (#3245553)
For that very reason, I severely doubt that he said what Jeter stated he did. Why would he do that?
   3. calhounite Posted: July 08, 2009 at 12:02 PM (#3245562)
Because like the NFL, there are a second set of books, the one with the real rules. Where it says if the guy goes through the motions of tagging, or even if he doesn't but lays the glove somewhere in same zip code..call the runner out.

The NFL had a ruckus over their 2nd book last year, when the comm called a team out for cheating, but turned out the infraction was under the admin section, specifying stuff like the opp locker room grade of Charmin has to be 2 or more..wasn't cheating at all.
   4. Moshe Mandel Posted: July 08, 2009 at 12:42 PM (#3245584)
If this was true, why didn't he just say so yesterday? It would have been the most straightforward answer, and would have just turned it into a he-said she-said deal. Instead, Hirshbeck was really vague on Monday, Jeter repeated his version a few times, Girardi said that he too found the explanation unconvincing, and Foster was silent. Sounds like a bad cover-up to me.
   5. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 08, 2009 at 12:44 PM (#3245586)
For that very reason, I severely doubt that he said what Jeter stated he did. Why would he do that?
But if he didn't, (a) why would Jeter claim it, and (b) why would it take so long for the umps to deny it and come up with a new story?

EDIT: Coke to Moshe.
   6. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: July 08, 2009 at 12:48 PM (#3245588)
or even if he doesn't but lays the glove somewhere in same zip code

ZIP codes consist of a set of points and lines, NOT a polygonal area. One is not "in" a ZIP code, one's postal delivery point has a ZIP code.
   7. JC in DC Posted: July 08, 2009 at 12:50 PM (#3245590)
It's even somewhat implausible on its face. It's two explanations, when only the second is necessary: "I had him tagging you." Instead, it's rather clearly a case of not denying what Jeter heard, "I had the ball beating you" and then adding something that Jeter "didn't hear" (and, why would he be mad already unless he "hadn't heard" something b/c it hadn't been said?).
   8. Chris Dial Posted: July 08, 2009 at 01:05 PM (#3245601)
It's even somewhat implausible on its face. It's two explanations, when only the second is necessary: "I had him tagging you." Instead, it's rather clearly a case of not denying what Jeter heard, "I had the ball beating you" and then adding something that Jeter "didn't hear" (and, why would he be mad already unless he "hadn't heard" something b/c it hadn't been said?).
I think they mean "misheard" rather than "didn't hear".
Jeter heard: "ball beat you, and he didn't have to tag you.”
Foster said: "ball beat you, and I had him tag you.”

Seems perfectly reasonable to me, but I'm not a Yankee fan.
   9. Chris Dial Posted: July 08, 2009 at 01:06 PM (#3245602)
But if he didn't, (a) why would Jeter claim it, and (b) why would it take so long for the umps to deny it and come up with a new story?
What? You advise 100% of people to wait until they are gathered before answering a question like this. Make it 99%, I reckon.
   10. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: July 08, 2009 at 01:07 PM (#3245603)
Despite the PR spin, MLB should make very, very sure that they tell all of their umpires that what is alleged to have happened is not even remotely acceptable, and if it ever happens again, there will be reprecussions for all of the umpires.

It may even be in the interests of the league to wire their umps on gameday, so that disputes like this don't become a he said - he said affair.
   11. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: July 08, 2009 at 01:09 PM (#3245605)
Seems perfectly reasonable to me, but I'm not a Yankee fan.
But then he apparently said the same thing to Girardi, and Girardi apparently made the same exact mishearing. That's where the plausibility starts to unravel.
   12. Chris Dial Posted: July 08, 2009 at 01:12 PM (#3245611)
Despite the PR spin, MLB should make very, very sure that they tell all of their umpires that what is alleged to have happened is not even remotely acceptable, and if it ever happens again, there will be reprecussions for all of the umpires.
I agree.
   13. Chris Dial Posted: July 08, 2009 at 01:12 PM (#3245613)
But then he apparently said the same thing to Girardi, and Girardi apparently made the same exact mishearing. That's where the plausibility starts to unravel.
Or Girardi is backing his player.
   14. Howie Menckel Posted: July 08, 2009 at 01:14 PM (#3245616)
I wonder if umps have a comfort zone with Jeter - make that, HAD a comfort zone with Jeter, in terms of what may have been said.

Not sure it was worth it to him to air the dirty laundry, from a strategic standpoint.

A rookie Kerry Kittles once scored about 15 first-quarter points on Michael Jordan, who spent the next 3 quarters not only dominating him on both ends, but apparently telling Kittles all sorts of uncharitable things about various women in his extended family, so to speak.
Yet after the game, Kittles blankly claimed he didn't hear anything - he had been told by the vets on his team that that was how he should handle it.

Jeter appears to have burned a source, generally speaking, not sure it was worth it unless he thought he could get the guy fired. Even then, not sure it pays off in the long run.
   15. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: July 08, 2009 at 01:18 PM (#3245621)
I think they mean "misheard" rather than "didn't hear".
Jeter heard: "ball beat you, and he didn't have to tag you.”
Foster said: "ball beat you, and I had him tag you.”

Seems perfectly reasonable to me, but I'm not a Yankee fan.


But then he apparently said the same thing to Girardi, and Girardi apparently made the same exact mishearing. That's where the plausibility starts to unravel.


Or Girardi is backing his player.

Seems to me that either of these explanations is possible.

Despite the PR spin, MLB should make very, very sure that they tell all of their umpires that what is alleged to have happened is not even remotely acceptable, and if it ever happens again, there will be reprecussions for all of the umpires.


And that's the main point. What's done is done, but the idea that "he beat you to the bag" is an acceptable alternative to actually tagging a runner is something that should be stepped on with an iron boot.
   16. Chris Dial Posted: July 08, 2009 at 01:21 PM (#3245627)
I wonder if umps have a comfort zone with Jeter - make that, HAD a comfort zone with Jeter, in terms of what may have been said.

Not sure it was worth it to him to air the dirty laundry, from a strategic standpoint
I think this is also a very good chance of what happened. Foster has stood around chatting with Jeter at second base for many years now, and he thought Jeter "played ball" and they had even had this type of discussion at second base before (but the calls went Jeter's way). I wouldn't be surprised that Jeter had said to Foster on a play at second before "Come on, Marty, you know the ball beat him".

I would be terribly surprised if Girardi hadn't gone out to argue a call *arguing* "the ball beat him", and now, is saying that's not right.

People can squawk about what's right and whatnot, but there are certainly the way things are and the way things ought to be, but the way things are is the way things are, not the way things ought to be, because if the way things are were the way things ought to be, then there wouldn't be a the way things ought to be, just a the way things are.

So, I find either scenario about as likely as the other at this point, and it's preposterous to suggest somehow the Yanks have been robbed and insulted when they have certainly gotten and desired the same outcome for their team.
   17. Chris Dial Posted: July 08, 2009 at 01:23 PM (#3245631)
Doesn't everyone chuckle about the ump saying "Mr. DiMaggio will let you know when it's a strike"?
   18. bunyon Posted: July 08, 2009 at 01:53 PM (#3245648)
I recall reading in one of Luciano's books that you just can't be "on" 100% of the time over 100% of the season. Thus, when calling balls and strikes with a pitcher with good control and hitter with good discipline, it was easy to just let them be professional.


Basically, everyone above has good points. No way for us to know. You can only say that if Jeter misheard and carped to the press, that isn't cool. If Foster really said what Jeter says he said, he needs to be disciplined. We can know what we think should be done if one of the scenarios above is true, but we're not going to figure out which scenario actually is true.
   19. LargeBill Posted: July 08, 2009 at 02:07 PM (#3245660)
Chris,

I could be wrong, but I believe that anecdote was said regarding Ted Williams.

Separately, this one is going to quietly die out. None of the parties involved can benefit from continuing the issue.
   20. TomH Posted: July 08, 2009 at 02:11 PM (#3245664)
is was about Rogers Hornsby
   21. LSR Posted: July 08, 2009 at 02:12 PM (#3245665)
ZIP codes consist of a set of points and lines, NOT a polygonal area. One is not "in" a ZIP code, one's postal delivery point has a ZIP code.

Actually, no. ZIP codes do not consist of a set of points and lines. ZIP codes consist of numeric digits. The digits are then used to reference a postal delivery zone.

If you're gonna give a guy a hard time for no apparent reason you might as well get it right.
   22. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: July 08, 2009 at 02:20 PM (#3245670)
Well, that's true in a truly pedantic sense, but it's a distinction without a difference. A ZIP code is, in fact, the name of a delivery zone. Hence "ZIP", for Zone Improvement Plan.

But that's like saying Derek Jeter isn't the shortstop for the Yankees, a Human Being NAMED Derek Jeter is. It's true, in so much as the set of letters that make up the name "Derek Jeter" is not the shortstop for the Yankees, while the hunk of flesh and bone assigned that name is the shortstop. But that's just being as ass. My point was that using ZIP codes to describe a geographic region is a terrible idea, full of problems and inconsistencies.
   23. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 08, 2009 at 02:24 PM (#3245675)
Case for Jeter's version:

1) Jeter said that he heard it.
2) Jeter reacted as if he had heard it.
3) Girardi's comments are consistent with Jeter's version.
4) Girardi's spontaneous reaction at the time is consistent with Jeter's version.
5) Hirschbeck agreed that it "used to be" that way.
6) It took Hirschbeck and Foster a day to come out with Foster's version.
7) The Foster version doesn't make sense:

"The ball beat you and I had him tagging you." But why would Foster even bother to say "the ball beat you"? Whether Jeter was tagged is the relevant issue. The first part is extraneous information.

"Sometimes when tempers flare, you don't hear everything that's said," Hirschbeck said. But Jeter is not claiming that he "didn't hear" what was said; to the contrary, he's claiming that he DID hear. So Jeter would have to have MISheard, not NOT heard. But "You don't have to be tagged to be out" is very different from "I had him tagging you."

Why is Foster not speaking himself?
   24. Jeff K. Posted: July 08, 2009 at 02:29 PM (#3245680)
Actually, no. ZIP codes do not consist of a set of points and lines. ZIP codes consist of numeric digits. The digits are then used to reference a postal delivery zone.

Actually, no. Numeric digits are simply visual references of mathematical constructs, and those visual representations are made of out of a set of points and lines. A ZIP code does not consist of digits, it consists of that set of points and lines.
   25. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 08, 2009 at 02:30 PM (#3245682)
I think they mean "misheard" rather than "didn't hear".
Jeter heard: "ball beat you, and he didn't have to tag you.”
Foster said: "ball beat you, and I had him tag you.”

Seems perfectly reasonable to me, but I'm not a Yankee fan.


Neither am I.

But since we're doing silly things like inferring that someone who gives an opinion on this meaningless issue is letting bias affect judgment: you're a Mets fan.
   26. villainx Posted: July 08, 2009 at 02:30 PM (#3245684)
I don't get why ZIP codes describing a geographic region is terrible. A person can't say they are within a postal delivery zone?
   27. Jeff K. Posted: July 08, 2009 at 02:31 PM (#3245687)
8) Who really gives a ####, though? Christ Almighty, this has been blown out of proportion. At best an umpire had a slip of the tongue by verbally admitting to something that was well-known. Even Jeter admitted he often is the beneficiary of "not rulebook but the way they call it" calls.
   28. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: July 08, 2009 at 02:48 PM (#3245721)
I don't get why ZIP codes describing a geographic region is terrible. A person can't say they are within a postal delivery zone?

Not really, no. There are plenty of places in the country where surrounding the set of delivery points that have a certain ZIP code with a polygon is impossible without also surrounding other delivery points with different ZIPs. Further, there are vast swaths of the midwest with no reasonable "ZIP code" assigned to them...massive fields with no postal delivery, and thus no ZIP. Using a ZIP to describe a geographic boundary is bound to #### up your statistics, almost no matter what you're trying to do with the data.

This article starts to make the case against ZIP codes as polygons, but it really doesn't quite go far enough. It does do a good job of illustrating the problem, though.
   29. Scott Lange Posted: July 08, 2009 at 02:49 PM (#3245722)
I didn't even realize that "the ball beat him" was an accepted way to make that call, in the sense that the neighborhood play is an accepted call at second. I assumed umpires sometimes have a hard time seeing tag plays, and subconsciously leap to the conclusion that the guy is out when they see the ball get there first. I never even considered that it might be intentional. I see why umpires might want to allow the neighborhood play, but why would they intentionally screw tag plays up like this? I don't get it.
   30. SoSH U at work Posted: July 08, 2009 at 02:54 PM (#3245732)
I didn't even realize that "the ball beat him" was an accepted way to make that call, in the sense that the neighborhood play is an accepted call at second. I assumed umpires sometimes have a hard time seeing tag plays, and subconsciously leap to the conclusion that the guy is out when they see the ball get there first. I never even considered that it might be intentional. I see why umpires might want to allow the neighborhood play, but why would they intentionally screw tag plays up like this? I don't get it.


I can understand employing the ball beat him rule if a guy is sliding straight into the bag. But if a player makes a specific movement to elude a tag, as I believe Jeter did here and Swisher did in the same game, then I think the umpire shouldn't fall back on that principle.
   31. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: July 08, 2009 at 02:59 PM (#3245738)
And here is the US Census Bureau on ZIP Code Tabulation Areas, their imperfect (and openly flawed) method of making ZIPs into polygons. It's not such a great idea to use these, either, but it's somewhat better than straight ZIP code, as these ARE polygons. They just don't correspond to ZIP codes: It's trivial to find a case where a person's delivery point has a certain ZIP, but the person's residence is not in that ZIP code's ZCTA, even if a ZCTA exists for their delivery point's ZIP code.
   32. villainx Posted: July 08, 2009 at 03:01 PM (#3245743)
Not really, no. There are plenty of places in the country where surrounding the set of delivery points that have a certain ZIP code with a polygon is impossible without also surrounding other delivery points with different ZIPs.

Seems like little difference in using congressional districts, school districts, or for that matter, neighborhoods, as in East Village being distinct from West Village or Lower East Side (for Manhattan downtowners). There is probably a lot of overlap, and not real clear borders. But as with ZIP codes, it's probably clear enough to be around the area.
   33. PreservedFish Posted: July 08, 2009 at 03:06 PM (#3245756)
verbally admitting to something that was well-known.


But, I don't think this is the case. It seems to me that umpires in general are good about trying to call the real result of the play, and not falling back on "the ball beat him." If Foster really uses that as his standard, he is out of step with his colleagues and of course is flouting the rule book.
   34. LSR Posted: July 08, 2009 at 03:09 PM (#3245765)
Actually, no. Numeric digits are simply visual references of mathematical constructs, and those visual representations are made of out of a set of points and lines. A ZIP code does not consist of digits, it consists of that set of points and lines.


No. Look at a ZIP code. Those are numeric digits you're looking at. You are interpreting those digits as mathematical constructs, but that doesn't invalidate the fact that they are what they are: digits. Furthermore, your interpretation is imprecise. If you really want to go there, a ZIP code actually references a finite list of addresses, i.e. points. There are no lines in a ZIP code.

If you want to take the literal approach to its extreme, you could go so far as to say that the digits (as digitally represented or in print) are themselves constructed of points and lines, but it wouldn't invalidate the fact that ZIP codes consist of numeric digits.
   35. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: July 08, 2009 at 03:11 PM (#3245768)
What?!? The signifier merely DENOTES the signified, it does not equate to it? Tell us more!!
   36. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: July 08, 2009 at 03:12 PM (#3245773)
Furthermore, your interpretation is imprecise. If you really want to go there, a ZIP code actually references a finite list of addresses, i.e. points. There are no lines in a ZIP code.

Delivery routes are assigned a ZIP code. There are lines in a ZIP code.
   37. Chris Dial Posted: July 08, 2009 at 03:22 PM (#3245795)
But since we're doing silly things like inferring that someone who gives an opinion on this meaningless issue is letting bias affect judgment: you're a Mets fan.
This may come as a shock to you but I don't care about the Yankees. My Mets fandom has absolutely no bearing on what I think of the Yankees.
   38. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 08, 2009 at 03:24 PM (#3245798)
This may come as a shock to you but I don't care about the Yankees. My Mets fandom has absolutely no bearing on what I think of the Yankees.


It doesn't come as a shock to me at all; it just supports my point that we shouldn't assume that people are taking positions here out of "bias."
   39. Chris Dial Posted: July 08, 2009 at 03:27 PM (#3245804)
it just supports my point that we shouldn't assume that people are taking positions here out of "bias."
Well, if it weren't a bunch of Yankee fans arguing most vehemently the last two days, you might have a point. Also, I wasn't assuming - I know Larry and JC are (and others with whom I have had these discussions).

Also Ray, YOU hadn't made a post when I said that. Only DMN above had (He's an O's fan).
   40. Dr Love Posted: July 08, 2009 at 03:29 PM (#3245805)
This may come as a shock to you but I don't care about the Yankees. My Mets fandom has absolutely no bearing on what I think of the Yankees.


Who gives a ####. The real question is do you care about ZIP codes?
   41. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 08, 2009 at 03:30 PM (#3245810)
Who gives a ####. The real question is do you care about ZIP codes?
I didn't until now, but I'm still puzzled at post 36. How can routes, as opposed to points on those routes, be assigned ZIP codes? Surely the routes themselves don't have independent existence.
   42. Obama Bomaye Posted: July 08, 2009 at 03:31 PM (#3245812)
How are these not geographical regions?
   43. Chris Dial Posted: July 08, 2009 at 03:38 PM (#3245822)
The real question is do you care about ZIP codes?
Oh, I am well familiar with Fly's screed on this. He just took this show on the road.
   44. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 08, 2009 at 03:38 PM (#3245825)
I didn't even realize that "the ball beat him" was an accepted way to make that call, in the sense that the neighborhood play is an accepted call at second. I assumed umpires sometimes have a hard time seeing tag plays, and subconsciously leap to the conclusion that the guy is out when they see the ball get there first. I never even considered that it might be intentional. I see why umpires might want to allow the neighborhood play, but why would they intentionally screw tag plays up like this?

Especially in the pre-replay days, about all the crowd and people in the dugouts could tell was whether the ball beat a runner (if that). I suspect umpires learned that they avoided more arguments by saying the runner was tagged in those circumstances. Even when replay started, they didn't use it nearly as much as today, so it seems plausible that umpires were slow to change their approach. It's also a hard call, especially when the runner ends up getting tagged on a part of the body that isn't the 1st part of his body to touch the base. There are a lot of calls that I'm unsure of unless they show the replay in slow motion from a good angle.
   45. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: July 08, 2009 at 03:41 PM (#3245828)
How are these not geographical regions?

Three things: First, 10030?

Second, you can't argue that ZIP codes are valid geographic polygons by showing a map of the most regular ZIP codes in the country, particularly when they don't even apply to the area under discussion.

Third, I don't deny that some people can make inaccurate maps that claim to show ZIP codes as geographic areas. I'm saying that these maps are inaccurate. For example, every PO Box in the Island of Manhattan is neglected on that map. Or, at least, most of them.
   46. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: July 08, 2009 at 03:47 PM (#3245835)
Here, for example, is a Manhattan "ZIP code map" that conflicts with yours.
   47. Dr Love Posted: July 08, 2009 at 03:56 PM (#3245850)
Here, for example, is a Manhattan "ZIP code map" that conflicts with yours.


Those look like geographical regions to me.
   48. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 08, 2009 at 03:58 PM (#3245855)
Fly = Cliff Claven.
   49. Scoriano Flitcraft Posted: July 08, 2009 at 04:00 PM (#3245859)
Interesting that no one has mentioned Rolen. I suspect that he's someone that might benefit from his defensive reputation in close calls.
   50. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: July 08, 2009 at 04:10 PM (#3245878)
Those look like geographical regions to me.

Again, BOTH maps are inaccurate. There are numerous overlapping, inconsistent, and just plain wrong places on both maps, and neither of them is capable of showing the nuance of the situation through polygons.
   51. Nasty Nate Posted: July 08, 2009 at 04:25 PM (#3245910)
"he lays the glove somewhere in same census tract" doesn't have the same zip to it as a metaphor
   52. bunyon Posted: July 08, 2009 at 04:32 PM (#3245924)
Are you in a zip code if you're at the post office?
   53. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: July 08, 2009 at 04:33 PM (#3245926)
Why does the ZIP code for Central Park start with 000 instead of 100?

How can routes, as opposed to points on those routes, be assigned ZIP codes? Surely the routes themselves don't have independent existence.

Same question here. I have never heard of somebody's street address remaining the same while their ZIP code changed. (quite different from telephone area codes)

However, I'm in a building right now whose ZIP code is, I believe, shared among all the buildings on this particular college campus, which definitely cannot be described using a single polygon. From some buildings, if you walk in any direction you get to private homes and businesses which have a different ZIP code.
   54. happysky Posted: July 08, 2009 at 04:39 PM (#3245939)
All this has been blown out of proportion !!!
   55. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: July 08, 2009 at 04:47 PM (#3245951)
“The ball beat you, and I had him tagging you.”
Isn't it quite conceivable that the ump was 100% sure that the ball beat Jeter and 55% sure Rolen applied the tag? To me, "I had him tagging you" sounds like the ump had doubt about his call.
   56. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: July 08, 2009 at 05:00 PM (#3245984)
Same question here. I have never heard of somebody's street address remaining the same while their ZIP code changed. (quite different from telephone area codes)

Happens all the time. I could find an example, if you'd like...

Here.

However,

How are boundaries for ZIP Codes defined?

The USPS does not define boundaries for ZIP Codes. Instead ZIP Codes represent clusters of addresses, grouped into these units for efficiency of delivery. In most cases ZIP Codes resemble spatial areas since they comprise spatially proximate street ranges. However, this is not always the case. In rural areas, ZIP codes can be collections of road lines (rural delivery routes) that in reality do not look much like a closed spatial area.

Do carrier routes follow ZIP Codes?

Each carrier route is explicitly defined as part of a single ZIP Code. The full 9 digits of the carrier route code (e.g. 12508C007) is a unique code that defines each carrier route and so it cannot cross multiple ZIP Codes.


That's from http://www.carrierroutes.com/ZIPCodes.html
   57. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: July 08, 2009 at 05:02 PM (#3245987)
However, I'm in a building right now whose ZIP code is, I believe, shared among all the buildings on this particular college campus, which definitely cannot be described using a single polygon. From some buildings, if you walk in any direction you get to private homes and businesses which have a different ZIP code.

Exactly. Now, imagine that you are on a baseball field stuck in the middle of such a situation. This baseball field has no postal delivery. School building on your left, private home on the right. What ZIP code are you in? Simple, you're not. Because ZIP codes are only assigned to the points of mail delivery on either side of you.
   58. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: July 08, 2009 at 05:04 PM (#3245988)
Are you in a zip code if you're at the post office?

Not really, no. Some post offices contain PO Boxes from multiple ZIP codes.
   59. Obama Bomaye Posted: July 08, 2009 at 05:06 PM (#3245991)
Killa Hills 10304!
   60. Obama Bomaye Posted: July 08, 2009 at 05:07 PM (#3245995)
How about if you stuff yourself into a mailbox. Are you in a zip code then?

(actually I do find this conversation interesting, not trying to #### w/ you)
   61. villainx Posted: July 08, 2009 at 05:09 PM (#3245999)
However, I'm in a building right now whose ZIP code is, I believe, shared among all the buildings on this particular college campus, which definitely cannot be described using a single polygon. From some buildings, if you walk in any direction you get to private homes and businesses which have a different ZIP code.

Why does it have to be a single polygon? The United States isn't like that, or Michigan.

Or, when you are in that building, you are in x zip code, and when you step outside you are in y zip code. No?

Using a ZIP to describe a geographic boundary is bound to #### up your statistics, almost no matter what you're trying to do with the data.

Zip code wouldn't be able to give a good idea of where a person is located?
   62. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: July 08, 2009 at 05:12 PM (#3246002)
How about if you stuff yourself into a mailbox. Are you in a zip code then?

You're in violation of several federal laws regarding use of the mails, but...I dunno. I think at that point you could be said to HAVE a ZIP code, but probably not be in one. I've never been good at edge cases like this.
   63. JPWF13 Posted: July 08, 2009 at 05:15 PM (#3246009)
Are you in a zip code if you're at the post office?

Not really, no. Some post offices contain PO Boxes from multiple ZIP codes.


I've decided that I only care about the specific region where I live, and here, 95%+ of Zip codes correspond to a definable geographic region. so as far as I'm concerned, expressions like, "He wasn't even in the same Zip Code" are ok with me.
   64. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: July 08, 2009 at 05:16 PM (#3246010)
Or, when you are in that building, you are in x zip code, and when you step outside you are in y zip code. No?

No.

I mean, it's a fact. ZIP codes are not polygons. They are very explicitly not polygons. They do not have "area". One cannot be in one. One can be near a delivery point associated with a ZIP code, but that's the best you can say. There are plenty of cases such as central park where it is very ambiguous. What ZIP code is Central Park in?
   65. villainx Posted: July 08, 2009 at 05:27 PM (#3246026)
I mean, it's a fact. ZIP codes are not polygons. They are very explicitly not polygons. They do not have "area". One cannot be in one.

So if someone said they were in zip code, say, 10004, you wouldn't understand that person to mean that they were in the New York City, Manhattan, downtown, southern tip?

Are you saying that it also would be weird for someone to say that he or she was "in" the financial district?
   66. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: July 08, 2009 at 05:30 PM (#3246032)
Are you in a zip code if you're at the post office?


No. And interesting fact, you don't have to pay taxes if you're in the post office, either.
   67. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: July 08, 2009 at 05:33 PM (#3246036)
So if someone said they were in zip code, say, 10004, you wouldn't understand that person to mean that they were in the New York City, Manhattan, downtown, southern tip?

For that specific ZIP code, sure. What ZIP Code is someone taking their lunch break in the Pentagon Courtyard in?
   68. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: July 08, 2009 at 05:47 PM (#3246042)
You can't argue that ZIP codes are defined as polygons by giving an example of one (or many) ZIP codes that can be very closely approximated by a polygon. It's like arguing that stoves are clocks because your oven has a digital clock on it.
   69. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 08, 2009 at 06:00 PM (#3246061)
You can't argue that ZIP codes are defined as polygons by giving an example of one (or many) ZIP codes that can be very closely approximated by a polygon. It's like arguing that stoves are clocks because your oven has a digital clock on it.
You can't argue that ZIP codes are not polygons by giving examples of places that aren't in a ZIP code, either.
   70. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: July 08, 2009 at 06:02 PM (#3246062)
Speaking of zip codes, Lastings Milledge sucks.
   71. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: July 08, 2009 at 06:03 PM (#3246063)
You can't argue that ZIP codes are not polygons by giving examples of places that aren't in a ZIP code, either.

No, I argued that ZIP codes aren't polygons by defining zip codes as what they are, and linking to an article that gives a clear example of it, in my second or third post.
   72. villainx Posted: July 08, 2009 at 06:06 PM (#3246069)
You can't argue that ZIP codes are defined as polygons by giving an example of one (or many) ZIP codes that can be very closely approximated by a polygon.

Or probably most, even an overwhelming majority?

even if he doesn't but lays the glove somewhere in same zip code..call the runner out.

I guess from your original exception, the usage of zip code as closely approximated by a polygon isn't a terrible misstatement. I mean, those calls are called neighborhood plays, and the same complaint can be made for "neighborhoods" being polygons too.
   73. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: July 08, 2009 at 06:11 PM (#3246073)
Or probably most, even an overwhelming majority?
I would bet that less than 15% of NYC ZIP codes can be accurately defined by a polygon.

At least, a polygon that doesn't overlap with other NYC ZIP codes.
   74. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: July 08, 2009 at 06:22 PM (#3246085)
#62, well played
   75. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: July 08, 2009 at 06:25 PM (#3246088)
This thread sets a new ecord at BBTF...but I'm not sure what that record would be. All I know is, it's probably not good...and there must be some way to attach it to either Lastings Milledge or Jeff Francoeur.
   76. BDC Posted: July 08, 2009 at 06:36 PM (#3246100)
Well, I sort of take the point about ZIP codes. Sort of. I mean, it's a convention, right? Every apartment in my building gets mail addressed with ZIP code 76013, and so do the surrounding houses and buildings and other mail-receiving locations. So I live in ZIP Code 76013, for most intents. It's sort of like saying that there is no batting lineup, because aside from the All-Star game or something they don't actually line up, they are just nine scattered lonely human beings. I'm cool with that. In the sense that I am not going to call for the banning of Fly from Primer and the expunging of this entire thread, or anything.

What's more interesting to me is the concept of area code. Remember when you saw an area code and you knew where the person or business was located? 512 was Austin, 214 was Dallas, 817 was Fort Worth. Now, someone can call you from an 817 number and they might actually *live* in Seattle or St. Petersburg, depending on the flexibility of their cellphone contract. Now that's truly not a polygon anymore, though Fly would probably say it never was.
   77. Bernal Diaz has an angel on his shoulder Posted: July 08, 2009 at 06:38 PM (#3246104)
Fly is ####### with you guys.
   78. Randy Jones Posted: July 08, 2009 at 06:40 PM (#3246106)
I think that Fly needs to get out of his mother's ZIP code and maybe get some sun and fresh air.
   79. bumpis hound Posted: July 08, 2009 at 06:43 PM (#3246109)
Hello, Newman.
   80. JC in DC Posted: July 08, 2009 at 06:44 PM (#3246112)
His basement has an air circulation system and a UV lamp, so he's doing ok.
   81. For the Turnstiles (andeux) Posted: July 08, 2009 at 06:49 PM (#3246116)
I would bet that less than 15% of NYC ZIP codes can be accurately defined by a polygon.

If you're going to be pedantic about what a ZIP code is, you should make sure you know what a polygon is. Any collection of points can be (non-uniquely) enclosed in a polygon. It might not be a regular polygon, and it might not be convex, but it is still a polygon.
   82. Sheer Tim Foli Posted: July 08, 2009 at 06:53 PM (#3246122)
Fly's out of the blue point of order over an unassuming expression is one thing. The number of folks at this site who rose to the challenge of debate on his own terms (without flaming or insults) is another thing altogether.

It's like some debating school playground - any topic any time. You want to argue zip codes - I'll argue zip codes until you don't know what zip code you are in (or on or under or whatever).

I do love this place.
   83. RJ in TO Posted: July 08, 2009 at 06:54 PM (#3246126)
Hey everyone! Here's a whole pile of information about polygons!

I'm looking forward to this thread taking an even more bizarre turn.
   84. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: July 08, 2009 at 06:57 PM (#3246131)
Any collection of points can be (non-uniquely) enclosed in a polygon. It might not be a regular polygon, and it might not be convex, but it is still a polygon.

Any collection of points can be, yes. However, not to the exclusion of any other set of points, which may belong to another set. In the case of ZIP codes, you can't even guarantee that you can contain all the points in multiple, non-contiguous polygons (Here in the GIS world, we call that a multipolygon. At least the OGC does.) Given a 2D representation of your polygons, where the polygons do not have Z values allowing for them to be cantilevered over one another, one cannot make a unique representation of ZIP codes as polygons. You simply can't. Certainly not in theory, and, as it happens, not in practice.
   85. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: July 08, 2009 at 06:57 PM (#3246132)

At least, a polygon that doesn't overlap with other NYC ZIP codes.


Why would a polygon have to be contiguous? The Spanish province of Burgos consists of two pieces that are not contiguous. The province of Vizcaya consists of three discontinuous pieces. Yet nobody would say that Spain isn't divided into provinces.
   86. Nasty Nate Posted: July 08, 2009 at 06:59 PM (#3246135)
Fly, how do you get involved with the GIS world? its interesting stuff.
   87. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: July 08, 2009 at 07:01 PM (#3246137)
It's my job (sort of). I agree, it is interesting stuff.
   88. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: July 08, 2009 at 07:02 PM (#3246140)
Why would a polygon have to be contiguous? The Spanish province of Burgos consists of two pieces that are not contiguous. The province of Vizcaya consists of three discontinuous pieces. Yet nobody would say that Spain isn't divided into provinces.

It wouldn't. But you can't draw that boundary between two ZIPs, when that boundary is completely undefined. You can come close, sorta. But, what if you had two ZIPs in the same building? Intermingled by office?
   89. villainx Posted: July 08, 2009 at 07:06 PM (#3246144)
Fly's out of the blue point of order over an unassuming expression is one thing. The number of folks at this site who rose to the challenge of debate on his own terms (without flaming or insults) is another thing altogether.

I was just asking for a fuller explanation cuz I don't understand where he is coming from.

Well, I sort of take the point about ZIP codes. Sort of. I mean, it's a convention, right? Every apartment in my building gets mail addressed with ZIP code 76013, and so do the surrounding houses and buildings and other mail-receiving locations.

And your Apt number represents both the apartment you are in and the mailbox.
   90. Jack Keefe Posted: July 08, 2009 at 07:07 PM (#3246145)
Hey if some 1 had a different zip code as me but he lived in the same building I would punch the guy in the nose. I don't want that sort of guy around if you know what I mean. He would be getting funny ideas and that is not the sort of thing that I counternance Al. I like a quiet time a couple of Line and Kugels a nice peppy broad and I like to get on the elevator and have no 1 wondering what my zip code may be.
   91. Mike Emeigh Posted: July 08, 2009 at 07:16 PM (#3246159)
Why is Foster not speaking himself?


The crew chief speaks for the crew, normally.

It's entirely possible that what Foster meant to say was what Hirschbeck claims he said - and what he actually said was something close to what Jeter/Girardi claim he said. When tempers flare, not only do people mishear things - they also misspeak.

-- MWE
   92. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 08, 2009 at 07:22 PM (#3246174)
The crew chief speaks for the crew, normally.


Okay, but why didn't the crew chief speak to Foster that same night?

It's entirely possible that what Foster meant to say was what Hirschbeck claims he said - and what he actually said was something close to what Jeter/Girardi claim he said. When tempers flare, not only do people mishear things - they also misspeak.


But, as I understand it, no tempers were flaring until Foster allegedly said what Jeter claims he said. And one would think that Foster would have immediately corrected Jeter's "misunderstanding" if that were the case.

"No, Derek, I didn't say that. I said this."

The idea that Jeter would be confused about what Foster said, both preceding and during a lengthy argument, seems fantastical to me.
   93. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: July 08, 2009 at 07:34 PM (#3246192)
Just because some places aren't in a ZIP code doesn't mean that no place is.

Semi-agreed. When does one LEAVE the ZIP code, though? If it doesn't have a border, then it can't have an area.
   94. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 08, 2009 at 07:35 PM (#3246194)
It wouldn't. But you can't draw that boundary between two ZIPs, when that boundary is completely undefined. You can come close, sorta. But, what if you had two ZIPs in the same building? Intermingled by office?
Other than the Pentagon, are there any such buildings?
   95. Chris Dial Posted: July 08, 2009 at 07:43 PM (#3246204)
Okay, but why didn't the crew chief speak to Foster that same night?
What difference does that make?

That's what stunned me about DMN's observation - Foster shouldn't go off ranting to the media - there's a general policy about these things. And unless you have a good transcript of what was said during the argument, it's hard to claim Foster didn't say something to that effect "You misheard me" "Oh bull ####### ####! You know good and goddammd well you said he didn't have to tag me (him). You are a sorry sack of ####. You ###### up balls and strikes all day yesterday and now you #### this up. If we lose this game by one run, you can bet you won't have heard the last of this!"
   96. Barnaby Jones Posted: July 08, 2009 at 07:44 PM (#3246210)
But, what if you had two ZIPs in the same building? Intermingled by office?


Then each of those offices would be in different zip codes, and could be assigned to the area/volume set referred to by the zip code in question. There is no boundary problem in this example, except for when you try and represent it aerially/2-dimensionally in GIS. But that is a problem with mapping, not conception.
   97. Dr Stankus and the Semicolons Posted: July 08, 2009 at 07:48 PM (#3246216)
I believe that the Zip Code for Davis, CA was different for the PO Boxes. I had one that was in the downtown area, 95617. Everything else downtown, and really throughout the town was 95616.
   98. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: July 08, 2009 at 07:50 PM (#3246222)
I'm not aware of any. I'm sure there are many cases where underground locations have different ZIPs than the surface buildings above them.
   99. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: July 08, 2009 at 07:51 PM (#3246225)
I believe that the Zip Code for Davis, CA was different for the PO Boxes. I had one that was in the downtown area, 95617. Everything else downtown, and really throughout the town was 95616.

The vast majority of PO Boxes are like this.
   100. Dr Stankus and the Semicolons Posted: July 08, 2009 at 07:52 PM (#3246226)
The vast majority of PO Boxes are like this.


I had no idea.
Page 1 of 2 pages  1 2 > 

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
TedBerg
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogOT: NFL/NHL thread
(8694 - 4:15pm, Nov 26)
Last: Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip

NewsblogShould the Red Sox Be Afraid of Hanley Ramirez Being Hanley Ramirez? - Red Sox - Boston.com
(20 - 4:15pm, Nov 26)
Last: PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth)

NewsblogOTP Politics November 2014: Mets Deny Bias in Ticket Official’s Firing
(4959 - 4:14pm, Nov 26)
Last: dlf

NewsblogSandy Alderson says Mets can move quickly if a shortstop becomes available - NY Daily News
(1 - 4:09pm, Nov 26)
Last: Walt Davis

NewsblogDave Cameron: A proposed three-way swap for Red Sox, Mariners, Nationals
(8 - 4:08pm, Nov 26)
Last: Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige

Newsblog2015 Potential Hall of Fame Ballot | Baseball-Reference.com
(18 - 4:07pm, Nov 26)
Last: Walt Davis

NewsblogOT:  Soccer (the Round, True Football), November 2014
(529 - 4:06pm, Nov 26)
Last: frannyzoo

NewsblogFemale Sportswriter Asks: 'Why Are All My Twitter Followers Men?' | ThinkProgress
(168 - 4:06pm, Nov 26)
Last: Shibal

NewsblogYankees won't get into bidding war for Chase Headley: source - NY Daily News
(12 - 4:02pm, Nov 26)
Last: The Yankee Clapper

NewsblogAdam Rubin: My Hall of Fame ballot
(62 - 3:42pm, Nov 26)
Last: Booey

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 11-26-2014
(8 - 3:19pm, Nov 26)
Last: Kiko Sakata

NewsblogBoston Red Sox prove (once again) that competitive balance in baseball will never exist | cleveland.com
(11 - 2:59pm, Nov 26)
Last: cardsfanboy

NewsblogOT - November 2014 College Football thread
(580 - 2:47pm, Nov 26)
Last: Lance Reddick! Lance him!

NewsblogStanton Losing About $141 Million of Record Deal to Taxes - Bloomberg
(93 - 2:26pm, Nov 26)
Last: AROM

NewsblogNotable Players Available In The Rule 5 Draft - BaseballAmerica.com
(3 - 1:38pm, Nov 26)
Last: esseff

Page rendered in 0.7842 seconds
53 querie(s) executed