Latest round of profound Gibbyerish from McCarver.
Chosen to represent the game’s old guard, however, is Fox Sports’ Tim McCarver, who seems to have an issue with excessive celebrations…and excessive hustle.
Harper’s unbridled enthusiasm raises eyebrows. He’s already being compared to Pete Rose, which Fox broadcaster and former St. Louis Cardinals catcher Tim McCarver says is nonsense. He wonders when someone will talk to Harper about slowing down.
“When the ball is hit 15 feet foul, and he’s on second base,” McCarver says, “it’s time to talk. I understand youthful enthusiasm, but it’s unbridled enthusiasm.”
When Fielder hit a walk-off homer against the San Francisco Giants on Sept. 6, 2009, the Brewers collapsed like bowling pins when Fielder stomped on home plate. The Giants remembered. Barry Zito hit him with a pitch in the first inning of their spring training game the following season.
“If it were (Bob) Gibson on the mound, I promise you that would never have happened,” McCarver says. “That payback isn’t something you want to even think about.”
While the celebration provoked anger and resentment among the “old-school,” the “new-school” loved it, convinced it generates enthusiasm for fans and particularly kids.
Scoffed McCarver: “I don’t buy that. [Joe] DiMaggio wasn’t flashy, but he got a lot of kids interested in baseball. Ted Williams hit, wasn’t flashy, and got a lot of kids interested in baseball. So did [Mickey] Mantle. They were the antithesis of flashy.”
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1. Champions Table Posted: June 01, 2012 at 07:01 PM (#4145583)And where are they now? All dead.
I rest my case.
We probably don't have to think about any aspect of it at this point, given that they did this once, three years ago.
And was never controversial, and universally beloved.
DiMaggio wasn't flashy? The man married Marilyn Monroe for crying out loud.
Oh, go away. Seriously, when is this twatbag going to retire already? Go ####### home and stay there.
Edit: Fortunately, my username can be abbreviate with punctuation so I can roll with this handle for a little bit.
That's what led to Bryce Harper's downfall.
I don't think that happened, not that it matters to McCarver.
Willie Mays has said that he purposely wore a cap that was too small, so that it would come off when he was running the bases or tracking down a flyball.
I thought the cap was too large, not small.
There are too many states. Please eliminate three.
I am not a crackpot.
I thought it was too small, so that the cap would perch on his head rather than grip it. But maybe you're right and the idea was for the oversized cap to be too loose. The important takeaway here is that Barry Bonds' godfather taught him everything he knew about erratic head size.
Gibson only got hit 8 times in almost 1500 career PA's, and only twice from 65-70.
Well, for one thing, you have to pick up a bat and step in the box with the understanding they may owe you one.
Yes, it's the equivalent of applauding bullying, and it is assault and battery. Intentionally throwing at people is the sucker punch of baseball.
I wonder who he threw at? Did he throw at Willie McCovey, or Frank Robinson or Frank Howard when they were in the league? Or did he make sure he threw at some pencil-neck second basemen? Gibson has always kind of come across as the Mitt Romney who sheared the gay kid's hair. A great pitcher, but . . . .
Even though eight doesn't sound like a lot, the rate per PA is actually not all that far off how he often he hit batters.
He hit each of those guys once.
Ron Hunt (who you apparently couldn't miss) and Roy McMillan lead the pack with six plunks each - Tony Taylor is third with four HBP.
Maybe he'd be first to administer the beatdowns to the charging sluggers. Merely being hulking doesn't constitute a martial art, after all. How many sluggers receiving blacks eyes to go with their bruised rib would it take before they started "forgetting" to drop their bats on the way to the field of combat?
I see what you did there.
Bringing me to perhaps my favorite quote re Gibson, from Hank Aaron to a teammate:
"Don't dig in against Bob Gibson; he'll knock you down. He'd knock down his own grandmother if she dared to challenge him. Don't stare at him, don't smile at him, don't talk to him. He doesn't like it. If you happen to hit a home run, don't run too slow, don't run too fast. If you happen to want to celebrate, get in the tunnel first. And if he hits you, don't charge the mound, because he's a Gold Glove boxer."
Really? Pedro plunked batters at twice the rate that Gibson did. How many starts did Pedro lose?
or some hulking slugger would go out to the mound and beat the #### out of him.
Yeah, just like Pedro's still in the hospital recovering from Don Zimmer's Sonny Liston imitation.
Not that any of this has anything to do with McCarver's typically moronic comment about Bryce Harper, which is defensible only as a straight line.
And Jack Baldschun calls him a coward. Baldschun has a point I think.
One interesting part of the story. After Gibson's second brush back on Bennett, Doug Harvey, "waved a warning finger at Gibson, which automatically results in a $50 fine" (Happened to Baldschun later in the game too). Did not realize that Umpires could fine players as late as the 60s. (Yes, the fine was actually given by the NL president, but it's "automatic")
Sequence of events: Flood homers, Bennett knocks down Javier, Gibson brushes Bennett back twice (warned and fined), Baldschun (who relieved Bennett -- Bennett was shelled) hits Gibson (warned and fined), Gibson throws his bat at Baldschun (ejected -- costing him an easy win). (Had Gibson not been ejected, one wonders about the next escalation. Perhaps Gibson lobs a grenade into the on-deck circle?)
And #20 Check the timeline. It seems to me that a fair number of his HBP were early in his career against the Phillies.
You aren't seriously comparing Don Zimmer to either a hulking slugger or Sonny Liston, are you?
Oh, and I love that, on the same page as the beanball war story, there's an ad to "Learn Judo and Karate". Google ads would be so proud!
DB
First
Maybe Jim can finally get us a sarcasm font in the beta site.
I'm definitely in the crowd who grew up listening to stories of how tough Gibson and Drysdale were. And, frankly, I'm tired of hearing about it. I grew up a Phillies fan and McCarver was Carlton's personal catcher, and hung around long enough to collect a paycheck in four different decades. So I've been hearing these stories for a long time.
People like Tony Conigliaro and Dickie Thon lose careers over beanballs. The game would probably be a lot better off without all the macho B.S.
This is just incredible B.S. I thought going all-out on every play was supposed to be a virtue?
As for the "flash," I will never understand why we consider it preferable for players to act like robots and show no emotion, to "act like you've been there before." WTF? I thought players were supposed to have fun and play like it's your last game.
No they'd just say he was another uppity ****** that was ruining baseball.
Ok, they wouldn't *say that*.
It's Andy. Even if it was sarcasm, he'd just mess up the coding. ;-)
Paul Blair's beaning was accidental and Ken Tatum was so shaken by the result he was unable to throw inside after that. Probably played a role in ending Tatum's career.
Yeah, just like Pedro's still in the hospital recovering from Don Zimmer's Sonny Liston imitation.
You aren't seriously comparing Don Zimmer to either a hulking slugger or Sonny Liston, are you?
Well, since Rocky Marciano also played baseball, I didn't want to confuse anyone, so I settled on the guy that Zimmer apparently saw in the mirror. And if that still flies over you, my brother Chico will sell you the print version of the code book.
I was decidedly in the undecided column when he first came up, having heard about his warrior paint and blowing a kiss to the pitcher and all that. But he has acted like a Major Leauger from Day #1 and won over more people than I could have imagined. I can't see how this is bad in any way for MLB.
But, since Tim McCarver is considered some elder statesman of baseball his word is authoritative to those who cover the game. You know: people who can't write interviewing people who can't talk...
Harper hustles all the time, which is exactly what the old school folks are always saying they want.
Going balls to the wall may not work for every player, but it seems to be in line with Harper's personality, and it's theoretically what everybody wants, anyhow. I say keep it up and give the tiresome old men of the future a new cliche ("Back in my day, players played hard. Why, you could hit a ball fifteen feet foul and Harper's already on second base!").
Probably, but comparing Harper to Mantle makes sense, since both switch-hit, while Mays only hit rightie.
You've forgotten the first rule of broadcasting: there's a cliche for each side of the equation and you pull out whichever one fits the narrative.
Probably, but comparing Harper to Mantle makes sense, since both switch-hit, while Mays only hit rightie.
Better to learn it now before you start making any bets on that.
Ichiro wanted to hit two homers today. He should do that more often.
"The only thing you know about pitching is you can't hit it."
How old is Harper now, 19? If McCarver can't appreciate a 19 year old playing Major League Baseball (to the tune of a 131 OPS+) who goes all out, and demonstrates some enthusiasm, the old fart should be euthanized.
On that one day, Zimmer made the mistake of not leading with the steel plate in his head. He's more machine than man.
What was the rep based on other than putting two Royals on the DL in the same game? It it couldn't have been based on how often Farmer hit guys.
Farmer had 12 HBPs in his big league career. To put that in rate terms, he did so at a much lower frequency than noted beanballer Greg Maddux.
Well, maybe in Boston.
The world would have been a better place if Zimmer had the foresight to coat his hands with heat salve and go straight for Pedro's beady little eyes.
"The only thing you know about pitching is you can't hit it."
Which matches almost word-for-word what another HoF pitcher said about his HoF manager:
O! the temerity!
It also doesn't help if, like Lastings Milledge, they really, really suck.
Harper's OPS+ was 135 going into today's game, but since his OPS shot up from .873 to .922, it's safe to say that his OPS+ has also gone up in the past 24 hours.
A few other rookie OPS+ numbers for players who came up at 20 or younger:
Ty Cobb (age 18) 86, and 132 at age 19
Mel Ott (age 17) 120, and 139 at age 19
Jimmie Foxx (age 17) 255 in 9 AB, and 130 at age 19)
Ted Williams (age 20) 160
Willie Mays (age 20) 120
Mickey Mantle (age 19) 117
Hank Aaron (age 20) 104
Ken Griffey Jr. (age 19) 108
Alex Rodriguez (age 18) 16, and 72 at age 19 and 161 at age 20
Sure, but his intangibles were a poem.
Gibson was ejected in the fourth with a 5-1 (soon to become 7-1) lead -- i.e., a game he figured to win. He would finish the '64 season with 19 wins. The ejection cost him his first 20-win season.
He plunked 102 batters out of the over 16000 he face. He hit one out of every 158 batters he faced.
If you want to reference a pitcher who hit batters (since 1950), then use Jim Bunning (every 98 batters faced), or Don Drysdale (every 92 batters faced), or even Jamey Wright (every 57 batters faced..the plunkiest pitcher ever (in a per batter faced measurement)).
Roger Clemens, Nolan Ryan, Randy Johnson...there are lots of other pitchers that hit batters more frequently than Bob Gibson.
Maybe Gibson didn't really need to hit people very often because he scared the #### out of everyone, and nobody ever showed him up.
So by not hitting batters, he made them worried about being hit?
Is that similar to Ichiro not hitting home runs, he puts the fear of home runs in the mind of pitchers?
Maybe Gibson didn't really need to hit people very often because he scared the #### out of everyone, and nobody ever showed him up.
So what would have happened if Jim Rice faced Bob Gibson?
Heart attacks for everyone viewing the at-bat?
Best I've heard of is Al Cowens vs Ed Farmer. Farmer had broken Cowens' jaw (and put Frank White on the DL in the same game). Cowens waited until he had healed fully and then when Farmer got Cowens to ground out to short, Cowens headed to the mound. The perfect time since everybody on the defensive team has a job to do and nobody can come to the pitchers aid immediately.
The Chicago police filed an assault charge, but Farmer refused to press charges (initially he had said that he would) provided Cowens shook his hand.
Before the mid-50s generally speaking if a batter and pitcher wanted to fight, generally speaking nobody interfered. The last time I heard of teammates not getting involved was Joe Adcock/Ruben Gomez. Story goes that Adcock took exception to the way Gomez had been pitching him and headed out to the mound. Gomez wanted no part of Adcock and Adcock chased Gomez all over the park (with both sets of teammates laughing). Supposedly Gomez went back to the clubhouse and came back with a knife, ready for round two. Again, the story is that Willie Mays talked Gomez into giving up the knife. No idea how much of the story is true, but I can't think of a batter/pitcher fight since then where nobody got involved.
Frank Robinson was known for a number of things when it came to attempts to intimidate him. If you knocked him down he'd make a show of digging in in the precise same spot. If you hit him he'd take first base and then try to plant the second-baseman on the left field fence. Gene Mauch came to the conclusion that it was a waste of time trying to intimidate Robinson -- just made him mad(der -- he was pretty intense at the best of time) Eventually Mauch forbade his pitchers from throwing above the waist inside on Robinson.
Anyhow, Gibson faced Robinson 96 times. Hit him only once but held him to a .229/.316/.410 line. The HBP doesn't seem to have been intentional -- at least it didn't make any particular game sense. Top of the 3rd, 2 out, bases empty. scored tied (4-4, IOW Gibson had a rough start). Robinson had singled and scored in his previous PA. (Robinson had an opportunity for a hard slide following the HBP since Coleman followed with an infield single. Probably did slide hard.)
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