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Monday, January 25, 2010

CtB: Calcaterra: If Brett Favre rules applied to baseball

Calcatetris…it’s sweeping the nation!

So last night Brett Favre throws an interception that costs his team a trip to the Super Bowl. You think he’s going to be ripped for it, but within minutes of the game ending the ESPN talking heads are launching right back into that “he’s like a kid out there/he’s a gunslinger” baloney. The best one was Tom Jackson who said “That’s the thing about Brett Favre; he’s not afraid to throw an interception. That’s one of the things I most admire about him.”

I thought that was some of the best suck-up-inspired denial of reality from a commentator I’ve heard in ages, so I quickly tweeted the following for laughs: “That’s the thing about Bill Buckner. He’s not afraid to muff a grounder. That’s one of the things I most admire about him.” Worried that people may not get the joke,  I applied a #FavreRulesForAll tag on it.  I giggled to myself for approximately four seconds, shut my computer down and went to sleep.

I woke up this morning to find that the meme had been picked up (the tag improved to #ESPNFavreRulesForAll). Between 11pm and 5am this morning, hundreds of people had made thousands of “That’s the thing about [infamous person] he’s not afraid to [make a big historical failure]. Gotta respect that.” posts.  Most were pop culture related. My favorite was Will Leitch’s “That’s the thing about France: It’s not afraid to build a war plan around the Maginot Line. Gotta respect that.” It was lightning fast. It was kinda brilliant. By dawn this morning it was utterly played out, at least on Twitter. There is something glorious about that.

 

Repoz Posted: January 25, 2010 at 02:44 PM | 1018 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: online, site news

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   401. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: January 27, 2010 at 04:28 AM (#3447383)
Wing Commander, which is my favorite franchise of all time, gave you torpedoes starting in WC2. So a single bomber could down two destroyers or so. The Longbow in WC3 and 4 could blow apart an entire freakin' fleet by itself.

It's like a TBD Devastator carrying four torps and single-handedly sinking a Japanese carrier.
   402. Banta Posted: January 27, 2010 at 05:21 AM (#3447409)
Tie Fighter is my favorite Star Wars game of all time.

A lot of the tactics in Star Wars make sense if it turns out that Vader is the greatest deep cover agent of all time. Deep, dark cover.
I'm surprised it took that many I seem to recall being able to take out a frigate with just one X-wing but then again I think I played that game back in 1993 or whenever it came out.

That was some Star Wars game. Rebel Alliance?

You needed some pretty serious firepower in X Wing and Tie Fighter to do that sort of stuff.
   403. McCoy Posted: January 27, 2010 at 05:28 AM (#3447410)
Like I said above I think it was wing commander that let you down numerous big ships with one tiny fighter.

Now that I think of it I think X-Wing made you perform multiple missions to destroy capital ships. Didn't you have to disable something or another and then return to base and then fly back out in another mission to destroy the frigate?
   404. hokieneer Posted: January 27, 2010 at 05:39 AM (#3447412)
This thread has been hijacked many times.
   405. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: January 27, 2010 at 05:42 AM (#3447413)
Not a frigate. You blow apart a few frigates but those are done in large flights. Usually you're with four X-Wings flying escort for four Y-Wings going on the bomb run.

There are one or two sets of missions where you have to help take out a Star Destroyer in stages. Part one, kill escort. Part two, kill shield generators. Part three, cover the cruiser or bombers going in to take out the big ship.

TIE Fighter was awesome. My all-time favorites are TF, Full Throttle, Masters of Orion II, and Wing Commander 4. Ooh, and Aces of the Pacific and Aces over Europe. Man I loved those last two.
   406. McCoy Posted: January 27, 2010 at 06:02 AM (#3447416)
I think my favorite were in order of appearance:

Sopwith
Wings of Fury
Red Baron (I think it was called this. It was a Dynamix game)
Wing Commander series (at least the first two, don't know really recall the ones past 2)
X-Wing (throw in TIE fighter here)

After that I graduated high school and never really played a flight sim type game again.
   407. Ron Johnson Posted: January 27, 2010 at 06:06 AM (#3447418)
McCoy, some place around here I still have a copy of Red Baron. I vastly prefer strategic style games, but Red Baron is still a fave.
   408. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: January 27, 2010 at 06:22 AM (#3447423)
I remember the first time Red Baron told me that my wingmen were too far away and couldn't see my hand signals. Prehistoric times, indeed.
   409. JMPH Posted: January 27, 2010 at 06:24 AM (#3447425)
Man, I had a feeling this wasn't about Favre anymore, but I can say with confidence that I didn't see this coming.
   410. McCoy Posted: January 27, 2010 at 06:24 AM (#3447426)
I think I downloaded it a few years ago. I simply don't have the patience for most games nowadays. When I was a kid I could sit through the 10 minutes of flying around doing nothing and then the occasional mind numbing tedium of flying in a circle over and over and taking a pot shot once a circle until the enemy plane fell from the sky but nowadays I just don't feel like doing stuff like that anymore. Nor do I feel like developing the dexterity of an octupuss on meth that is required to play pretty much any action/sports game out there nowadays. I don't want to have to use 15 different buttons and 3 joysticks all placed at weird angles to play a game.
   411. Good cripple hitter Posted: January 27, 2010 at 06:49 AM (#3447436)
Anyone here remember a flight game called Corncob? Premise was that WWII never happened, instead aliens invaded earth and you have to fight them in your WWII era plane. Had what has to be my favourite feature of any video game: if you destroyed your own base/fighters, you would be placed under arrest for a certain amount of time (typically a week or so). The game actually locked you out of your save file until your jail term was served in real time.
   412. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: January 27, 2010 at 06:51 AM (#3447437)
Agreed. But that's why the Wii is awesome: so simple.

I don't have a Wii due to its awesomeness. It would eat up too much free time.
   413. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: January 27, 2010 at 06:52 AM (#3447438)
The game actually locked you out of your save file until your jail term was served in real time.


Holy crap that's evil.
   414. hokieneer Posted: January 27, 2010 at 07:03 AM (#3447440)
The game actually locked you out of your save file until your jail term was served in real time.

Metal Gear Solid 3 on the PS2 did something like that as well. There was a boss fight that involved you dueling with a legendary sniper, who was rather old. There were several ways of beating the boss, different combination of circumstances led to different terms of victory. Don't remember exactly the details to set it up, but the simple answer is if you saved and quit at a certain point in the boss fight, every time you would reload your game, he would be right beside you and kill you instantly. You had to wait 5-7 real life days for him to "die of old age" before you could continue past him.
   415. McCoy Posted: January 27, 2010 at 07:30 AM (#3447444)
WWII Online, which I was surprised to find out is still going strong almost 9 years later, set it up so that a player covering distance did so at real time. In otherwods if the spawn point was 2 miles out (which it usually was for attacking forces) and there was no one who wished to play as a truck then you were forced to walk/run the distance to the battle which could take 10 or so minutes. Then of course once you got there there was nothing more infuriating then get killed on the outskirts of town by some computer controlled machine gun nest.
   416. bads85 Posted: January 27, 2010 at 07:56 AM (#3447450)
Where the hell was the air coverage when the Imperials attacked Hoth?


Vader killed one of his admirals for coming out of hyperspace at the wrong place, which somehow didn't allow the proper support for the ground troops. Just what the mistake was and how it screwed up the attack is never explained -- you are right -- it doesn't make sense, but the attack was botched from the start.
   417. McCoy Posted: January 27, 2010 at 08:22 AM (#3447452)
Vader killed him from coming out of hyperspace too far away from Hoth which allowed the rebels to get their shields up and the imperials lost the element of surprise. Which in reality is complete nonsense. The rebels knew the Imperials were coming, they found the droid afterall, and were already preparing for an evacuation and the coming battle. But coming out of hyperspace didn't prevent the Imperials from giving proper support to the ground troops it simply took them longer to get to Hoth. Which again I'll say is largely bull because nonbody is going to travel billions and billions of miles at faster than light speed and then want to drop out of hyperspace that close to that large of a mass. If your computations are off by even just a fraction of a fraction you're dead.

Vader then I believe kills the next admiral because he botches the blockade and lets the rebels escape. All in all watching those movies it makes you wonder why the Empire is the dominant force. Especially since the Rebels seemed to be extremely well funded and equipped which I have no idea how that would really be possible given all the power the Empire had.
   418. McCoy Posted: January 27, 2010 at 08:41 AM (#3447455)
To bring it back to WWII Vader's dispatching of Admirals is reminiscent of Churchill going through generals until he got to Montgomery only that Vader never got to Thrawn.
   419. T.J. Posted: January 27, 2010 at 02:20 PM (#3447497)
Anyone here remember a flight game called Corncob?

This doesn't sound like a flight sim. It sounds vaguely BDSM.
   420. CFiJ Posted: January 27, 2010 at 03:27 PM (#3447521)
McCoy, you seem to be hanging a lot on this hyperspace thing. One constant throughout the movies is that ships have the ability to drop out of hyperspace at a relatively close distance to large masses. If you're going to accept the existence of hyperspace drives, lightsabers, ion cannon and sentient droids, you might as well accept that. Star Wars is space opera, not hard SF.

As for the Hoth attack. The attack makes perfect sense. The Rebels shield protects against orbital bombardment. The Empire needs to knock down the shields in order bombard the base. They accomplish this with the AT-ATs, because the shield is not a physical one that effects solid objects, but an energy one that affects blasters. Once the AT-ATs are within the shield, they can fire at will. Once the shield is down, the Empire can bring the full power of their Star Destroyers to bear.

The Rebels basic tactic when their bases are found are to cut and run. The evacuation begins as soon as they suspect the Empire has located them. Their ground attack is purely a delaying action to keep the shield up as long as possible so that the base can be evacuated. When transports clear the shield, they are covered via an ion cannon, which can disable ships long enough for transports to escape to hyperspace, but not enough to take the Empire's task force on.

As for Vader, he doesn't know the Rebels had found the probe droid. When he finds the Rebels are already preparing for an evacuation, he assumes that it's because Veers came out of hyperspace too early. And he doesn't wait around for explanations.

Your point about the Empire's lack of concern about air superiority does stand.

Regarding X-Wings, their hyperspace drive is essential for the missions they are assigned. These include convoy, the occasional hit-and-run strike (the hyperspace is not so essential for surprise attacks as it is for quick get-aways) and last, but certainly not least, for fighting delaying actions and holding off TIE fighter attacks while other friendlies are retreating and making an escape. The only advantage the Rebels can use against the Empire is mobility, and the hyperspace drive on X-Wings are an exemplar of that.
   421. HCO Posted: January 27, 2010 at 03:30 PM (#3447524)
"You help down a Star Destroyer by going after its shield generators and stuff, but even then the Mon Calamari Cruiser you're with is actually in charge of doing the real damage."

I thought we got rid of all the Mon Calamari talk when we killed Primer Classic.
   422. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: January 27, 2010 at 03:50 PM (#3447543)

I thought we got rid of all the Mon Calamari talk when we killed Primer Classic.


That was a trap!
   423. flournoy Posted: January 27, 2010 at 03:52 PM (#3447546)
When he finds the Rebels are already preparing for an evacuation, he assumes that it's because Veers came out of hyperspace too early.


That'd be Admiral Ozzel, not General Veers, though it is Veers who brings Vader the news.
   424. bunyon Posted: January 27, 2010 at 03:58 PM (#3447555)
When he finds the Rebels are already preparing for an evacuation, he assumes that it's because Veers came out of hyperspace too early.



That'd be Admiral Ozzel, not General Veers, though it is Veers who brings Vader the news.



That's a common misperception, but actually...
   425. JRVJ (formerly Delta Socrates) Posted: January 27, 2010 at 04:00 PM (#3447558)
I'm coming in a little late on this, but one of the reasons that I absolutely LOVED the re-thought BSG is that they dealt with issues that nobody even remotely thought of in Star Wars, such as the sheer exhaustion provoked by constantly being on the run (I'm thinking of the wonderful "33" episode), plus the attrition of constantly losing people (as represented by the survivors count at the beginning of each episode), ships, spare parts, etc.

The one thing I would have always liked to have seen in BSG is how the economy of this rag tag fleet worked. I mean, people managed to buy drinks and other things, plus there was a black market on some of the civilian ships.

What was the unit of currency? Why didn't they have galloping inflation?
   426. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: January 27, 2010 at 04:22 PM (#3447600)
What was the unit of currency? Why didn't they have galloping inflation?


I'm not a New BSG guy, but maybe they kept a fixed amount of specie in circulation. You're only impetus to inflation, then, would be people dying.
   427. JJ1986 Posted: January 27, 2010 at 04:29 PM (#3447612)
Vader killed him from coming out of hyperspace too far away from Hoth which allowed the rebels to get their shields up and the imperials lost the element of surprise.

"Admiral Ozzel came out of lightspeed too close to the system." "He felt surprise was wiser."
   428. bunyon Posted: January 27, 2010 at 04:32 PM (#3447618)
The one thing I would have always liked to have seen in BSG is how the economy of this rag tag fleet worked. I mean, people managed to buy drinks and other things, plus there was a black market on some of the civilian ships.


It's a minor nit, I think. The one thing apocolyptic shows usually miss is how bad things would be. Even shows, like new BSG (which I loved, too - 33 was incredible TV), that try to show things being bad, eventually bring it back some just to make it palatable. The reality of onboard living in new BSG would not be entertaining. Nor would any "real" war show or doctor show, etc.

It's very like watching Haiti on TV vs. being there (I'm sure - haven't been). The minor disasters I have been on scene for (nothing, at all, like Haiti or Katrina or 9/11, etc) have always been much, much worse than any like thing depicted in film. You can allude to stuff but, if nothing else, the show always ends and you get to take a warm shower and go to bed.
   429. JRVJ (formerly Delta Socrates) Posted: January 27, 2010 at 04:33 PM (#3447619)
Yes, but how would you do that? By only using such coins or notes as existed at the time of the attack on the 12 colonies? (because (a) I wonder if the BSG and the other ships had access to bank accounts and such, and even if they did; (b) what would THAT represent, anyway, in this very unique, rag tag fleet).

And what would specie represent? I know that after the U.S. went off the gold standard, money (both within and outside the U.S.) doesn't represent anything per se, except (and I'm no economist) to the extent the general public thinks that a Dollar (or a Pound, an Euro, a Swiss Franc, a Real, a Yen, a Rupee or a Renminbi) is worth a Dollar (or a Pound, Euro, etc.).

Well, what WOULD a unit of currency have represented in a unique, rag tag fleet such as the new BSG one?
   430. bunyon Posted: January 27, 2010 at 04:40 PM (#3447629)
I think it likely would have gone to a mostly barter system. And, perhaps, the colonies had not yet gone off the gold standard. Even in today's world, if and when the major governments collapse, gold will again be money.

THey really didn't get into economics on BSG because, even in our own lives, economics is boring.
   431. The Good Face Posted: January 27, 2010 at 04:41 PM (#3447631)
Well, what WOULD a unit of currency have represented in a unique, rag tag fleet such as the new BSG one?


They'll probably just use Nuka-Cola bottlecaps.
   432. JRVJ (formerly Delta Socrates) Posted: January 27, 2010 at 04:43 PM (#3447636)
THey really didn't get into economics on BSG because, even in our own lives, economics is boring.


Or perhaps the writers of the show didn't command the issue enough to give it a go....
   433. bunyon Posted: January 27, 2010 at 04:45 PM (#3447640)
Or perhaps the writers of the show didn't command the issue enough to give it a go....

I'm sure they didn't. They seem like bright, educated, logical people. I'd guess economics was not their bag.
   434. Gaelan Posted: January 27, 2010 at 04:50 PM (#3447646)
That's a common misperception, but actually...


Brilliant.
   435. Banta Posted: January 27, 2010 at 04:53 PM (#3447649)
They'll probably just use Nuka-Cola bottlecaps.

Can we turn this into a Fallout discussion?

I only really played one game last year and it was Fallout 3. The game is ####### incredible. The most revolutionary gaming experience since GTA3. I can't even imagine what the scope of Fallout 4 could be.

The only negative is the relatively short main story, but who gives a rip?
   436. GregQ Posted: January 27, 2010 at 04:58 PM (#3447658)
http://gizmodo.com/5426453/the-physics-of-space-battles
   437. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: January 27, 2010 at 05:00 PM (#3447662)
Yes, but how would you do that? By only using such coins or notes as existed at the time of the attack on the 12 colonies? (because (a) I wonder if the BSG and the other ships had access to bank accounts and such, and even if they did; (b) what would THAT represent, anyway, in this very unique, rag tag fleet).


Military fiat can accomplish a lot. I imagine they either went to a gold standard type system with whatever was left on the ship or canceled everything and went with a fixed sum of specie in circulation, both of which would encourage an underground economy.
   438. JJ1986 Posted: January 27, 2010 at 05:03 PM (#3447666)
Can we turn this into a Fallout discussion?

I hadn't really gamed in about five years, but I played Fallout 3 last year and loved it. It's ruined me for other games, though. I tried Oblivion, Mass Effect (Way too difficult, although I want to try #2), Bioshock and Assassin's Creed and none of them were nearly as good as FO3.
   439. hokieneer Posted: January 27, 2010 at 05:14 PM (#3447682)
I only really played one game last year and it was Fallout 3. The game is ####### incredible. The most revolutionary gaming experience since GTA3. I can't even imagine what the scope of Fallout 4 could be.

The only negative is the relatively short main story, but who gives a rip?


I assume you didn't play it on the PS3 then. The PS3 version was filled with tons of glitches, bugs, and more pesky crap than most other console games. I understand the magnitude and depth of Fallout 3 is so large that bugs are to be expected. Even with that in mind, there was too many.

Now that didn't stop me from playing and enjoying it. Put 80+ hours into it, and I never beat the main story. I made it over 60% through the story, and got side tracked doing the side missions, fetch quests, exploring and everything else FO3 had to offer. The game world really did feel alive, as almost every other NPC in the game had a life outside of your character's actions. The world and time itself did not revolve around your character, you were apart of it.

Aside from all the bugs/glitches, I had other problems with it. Enemies and loot were very repetitive. You could be wandering around, find a random "dungeon" (ie old office building), spend an hour running through it and only find one skill book you didn't have already, 15 copies of guns you already had, and fight the same enemies over and over. Bottle caps were worthless, after about 20-25 hours into the game I had enough caps / items in my armory(that could be turned to caps) to buy everything in an entire town. Exploration really suffered because there wasn't anything new/random at different locations, I found myself more excited to see another baseball bat/ball than to find another gun/something useful.

It was a great game, but not revolutionary in any way.
   440. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: January 27, 2010 at 05:28 PM (#3447702)
Ooo, anyone here ever play Freelancer? Awesome game. The world does not exist outside your character, but it's cleverly designed to make it seem like it does. Plus you really can make a good living as a bounty hunter, cargo runner, or pirate. Man, pirating in Freelancer is difficult and fun.
   441. Banta Posted: January 27, 2010 at 05:30 PM (#3447705)
Addressing post 440:

I did play the PS3 version and it was buggy, but it never undermined my gaming experience. The game only froze up on me a couple times and everything else I could forgive.

What you say about the repetitiveness is somewhat true, but it didn't bother me to to any great extent. I found there to be plenty of locations to keep it interesting. Sure, it could have used a few more different enemies and guns, I suppose, but, the game was pretty epic anyway.

It was revolutionary to me in that I'd never played a game that you could play almost entirely as a shooter (and after awhile, I did abandon using the VATS system all together to challenge myself) and still have the RPG elements (Mass Effect was pretty close too, albeit different). I suppose that both styles could have been fleshed out more (initial level cap of 20, come on!), but the groundwork it laid for future games was outstanding.
   442. The Good Face Posted: January 27, 2010 at 05:47 PM (#3447724)
It was a great game, but not revolutionary in any way.


I think where FO3 was groundbreaking was its ability to set mood and establish emotional depth. The loneliness of walking around the blasted landscape was palpable. You'd explore a shattered shell of a house and find... a battered teddy bear. A table set for a meal that never happened. Or maybe a feral ghoul trying to eat your face. All interspersed with a mordant sense of black humor. The game veered effortlessly between sadness, despair, hope, loneliness, fear and humor, switching gears with no warning whatsoever.

The gameplay itself was just Oblivion with guns and a pause/issue commands feature. Not a bad thing, but not particularly revolutionary.
   443. McCoy Posted: January 27, 2010 at 06:19 PM (#3447767)
McCoy, you seem to be hanging a lot on this hyperspace thing. One constant throughout the movies is that ships have the ability to drop out of hyperspace at a relatively close distance to large masses. If you're going to accept the existence of hyperspace drives, lightsabers, ion cannon and sentient droids, you might as well accept that. Star Wars is space opera, not hard SF.

Well, everything makes sense if we accept everything as true in the Star Wars universe. My point was that the star wars universe is full of crap. If they can build a computer that can successfully navigate hyperspace they can build a computer that can track and shoot down ships at an amazing level.




As for the Hoth attack. The attack makes perfect sense. The Rebels shield protects against orbital bombardment. The Empire needs to knock down the shields in order bombard the base. They accomplish this with the AT-ATs, because the shield is not a physical one that effects solid objects, but an energy one that affects blasters. Once the AT-ATs are within the shield, they can fire at will. Once the shield is down, the Empire can bring the full power of their Star Destroyers to bear.


The firepower of a star destroyer far exceeds that have the of an invasion force and the Empire had 8 star destroyers at the scene. Bombarding the crap out of the shield would have brought it down rather quickly. Much quicker than dropping an invasion force hours away from the rebel base and having them approach on "foot". But if for whatever reason you say that can't be done it still makes no sense to send AT-AT walkers to do the job. You send down your air forces that can fly hundreds if not thousands of miles per hour to fly in and destroy the shield in two seconds. The attack makes perfect sense if you want entertainment for a movie but it makes no sense whatsoever from a military standpoint.



The Rebels basic tactic when their bases are found are to cut and run. The evacuation begins as soon as they suspect the Empire has located them. Their ground attack is purely a delaying action to keep the shield up as long as possible so that the base can be evacuated. When transports clear the shield, they are covered via an ion cannon, which can disable ships long enough for transports to escape to hyperspace, but not enough to take the Empire's task force on.


I understand it is a delaying action but putting human beings in trenches armed only with a blaster isn't going to delay anybody. It is suicide. The only effective weapon they had was the snowspeeders everything else was useless and they didn't have enough snowspeeders to delay the attack. Though why they didn't send out the snowspeeders when the invasion forces was miles and miles away instead of within vision is beyond me.


As for Vader, he doesn't know the Rebels had found the probe droid. When he finds the Rebels are already preparing for an evacuation, he assumes that it's because Veers came out of hyperspace too early. And he doesn't wait around for explanations.


The Empire probably had a good idea that the droid was spotted. If I remember Han made a comment about how destroying the droid was too easy. Turns out I was wrong about the hyperspace jump as posted in a later post here. Apparently Vader wanted to drop out of hyperspace far away from the planet and use the asteroid field and distance to hide his fleet. They would then somehow bombard the planet from very far away knocking out the defenses and allowing the ground forces to simply mop up the trapped rebels. By coming out too close it supposedly warned the Rebels allowing them to put their shield up thus requiring the fleet to attack from below. Even Vader's battleplan is stupid and unlikely to catch the rebels with a shield down.





Regarding X-Wings, their hyperspace drive is essential for the missions they are assigned. These include convoy, the occasional hit-and-run strike (the hyperspace is not so essential for surprise attacks as it is for quick get-aways) and last, but certainly not least, for fighting delaying actions and holding off TIE fighter attacks while other friendlies are retreating and making an escape. The only advantage the Rebels can use against the Empire is mobility, and the hyperspace drive on X-Wings are an exemplar of that.


You don't need hyperspace capabilities for convoy duty. You don't need to protect a ship while it is in hyperspace. You need to protect a ship while it isn't in hyperspace. Capital ships can house more than enough ships to protect them out of hyperspace. The insanity of putting a hyperspace drive on a fighter would by like putting a nuclear reactor on a PT boat so that it can escort a fishing trawler with a nuclear reactor on it. It just doesn't make any real kind of sense. As for hit and runs docking with capital ships appears to be extremely easy and hyperspace travel appears to be easy. A capital ship carrying fighters can jump into a system unleash its fighters, attack quickly, recall them and jump back out just as quickly or almost as quickly as if you were simply trying coordinate 10 X-wings to jump into a system attack and jump out. Yeah sure if there is no economic cost to it then it would be great for every single ship out there to have a hyperspace drive but it simply wouldn't make an economic sense to do it especially since it makes little military sense to do it either. The Rebels don't really have a mobility advantage on the Empire. The Empire has tons of ships that are capable of destroying the rebels and following them. There little fighters can't jump but because of that you don't just see little fighters in Imperial space. Those little fighters are always attached to something bigger and that something bigger can go anywhere where the rebels go. For the most part the Rebels can only hang out and fight on the outskirts of the known universe, the backwater of the Empire. Anywhere else and they would be crushed which is why everything we see in the movies is out in the middle of nowhere.
   444. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: January 27, 2010 at 06:29 PM (#3447782)
You want bad tactics? Try Starship Troopers, the movie. You want good tactics? Try Starship Troopers, the book.

Both of which I love, for entirely different reasons. You couldn't possibly make two stories involving a guy named Rico fighting for the Mobile Infantry against giant hive-mind Arachnids any more different if you tried.
   445. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: January 27, 2010 at 06:38 PM (#3447792)
I love this thread. This is old-school Primer right here. Off-topic fun, none of the hateful bullshit.
   446. McCoy Posted: January 27, 2010 at 06:53 PM (#3447806)
If a star wars talk turns hateful you know you are dealing with some truly disconnected people.
   447. Sexy Lizard Posted: January 27, 2010 at 06:54 PM (#3447811)
I love the tactics in Starship Troopers (movie) because they're such a wonderful parody of bad movie tactics. Bunch everyone up, no cover at all, shoot semi-randomly, then panic at the first opportunity.
   448. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: January 27, 2010 at 06:57 PM (#3447813)
Not to mention virtually no air support, no artillery at all, and no heavy weapons/tank support.

It's really quite amazing.
   449. McCoy Posted: January 27, 2010 at 06:59 PM (#3447818)
I'm guessing in the movie world Earth is way overpopulated and they need to thin the ranks a bit.
   450. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: January 27, 2010 at 07:02 PM (#3447821)
You don't thin the ranks out with Citizens of the Federation!!!!1
   451. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: January 27, 2010 at 07:02 PM (#3447822)
Dizzy... *sigh*
   452. JPWF13 Posted: January 27, 2010 at 07:05 PM (#3447826)
You want bad tactics? Try Starship Troopers, the movie.


Nuclear hand grenades! (Rocket propelled, but still...)

Seriously.
But then again, we once did actually design a nuclear mortar, one that when fired would have it's three man crew within its own blast range- the crew was supposed to dig a hole before firing, and jump in after firing the damn thing...

who knows was stupid things the Soviets tried developing too
   453. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: January 27, 2010 at 07:14 PM (#3447834)
would have it's three man crew within its own blast range


For the Federation!

We do have nuclear artillery shells, which is pretty cool.
   454. McCoy Posted: January 27, 2010 at 07:19 PM (#3447842)
I thought it was an artillery piece that could fire a low level nuclear blomb not a mortar.

Looks it up. . . . geesh they actually did build a nuclear mortar.

What a stupid weapon. Not just because those operating the mortar would be in blast range but because your own troops would be in the blast range. You would probably do more damage to your own side than you did to the enemy. They made 2100 DAvy Crockett recoilless rifle and they were in service from 1961 to 1971.
   455. hokieneer Posted: January 27, 2010 at 07:22 PM (#3447843)
#442

yes Fallout did an alright job of combing FPS and RPG gameplay. I personally found the straight FPS gameplay very aggravating and inaccurate, so I ended up using VATS for the tougher battles I got in. The RPG aspects of the game were good enough to satisfy me (I'm not a huge RPG gamer, but I can get into certain ones), but it wasn't overly complicated.

I've never played Mass Effect, but if you want a great RPG-FPS hybrid game you should try Borderlands. Some RPG aspects are very nerfed (ie, you can't control the stat increased when you level up), but it is an old school dungeon crawler at heart. All the enemies at the spawn points are randomly generated along with the loot you receive as well. The game features a very in-depth and massive gun creation engine, where you are highly unlikely to run across the same gun, even on 2nd and 3rd playthroughs. Loot and enemies level up according to your level and difficulty (it's a co-op game as well, more people = harder gameplay = better loot). The mission styles are more repetitive than FO3, but the loot/battles are random in nature and are mostly unique. The FPS gameplay is on par with most B+ to A- FPS titles, which is a whole lot better than FO3.
   456. T.J. Posted: January 27, 2010 at 07:28 PM (#3447850)
Service guarantees citizenship. Would you like to know more?
   457. hokieneer Posted: January 27, 2010 at 07:30 PM (#3447851)
I think where FO3 was groundbreaking was its ability to set mood and establish emotional depth

#443, yes I can see that. Bethseda went into great detail to put in the prepared-but-not-eaten dinners, the toy cars just lying around, the mailboxes with mail still in them, etc.

My favorite genre of games are the survivor-horror games, so the mood and atmosphere of a game are very important to me. Fallout was great in setting a mood, but it didn't do anything better than other games have been doing for years. Resident Evil 1-3 (and maybe 4), the first few Silent Hill games, Dead Space, Bioshock, etc all do an excellent job of establishing the nature of the setting, to the point where the environment tells part of the story as well. It was such a large setting to accomplish this feeling of immersion into the game, but other games have accomplished it before (at least for me) just on a smaller scale.
   458. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: January 27, 2010 at 08:14 PM (#3447911)
I think the Empire were the good guys. If you take out the cartoonish "I am evil and dark and thus powerful" garbage that's obviously Rebel propaganda, it's clearly a bunch of ragtag religious extremists striking at the elements of civilization and technology. What do they want to bring back? A bureaucratic, deadlocked, could-barely-protect-itself society where you were chosen for leadership based on your innate biology? That's some messed up stuff right there.
   459. Banta Posted: January 27, 2010 at 08:19 PM (#3447915)
Alderaan was asking for it! A hotbed of insurgents if I'd ever seen one.

JIMMY SMITS IS NOT YOUR SAVIOR!

Also, Borderlands did intrigue me. I'll probably check it out eventually.
   460. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: January 27, 2010 at 08:29 PM (#3447927)
Oooh, it's a peaceful planet without weapons. It's just instrumental in the rebel leadership, the destruction of the Death Star (I admit that that is a PR nightmare, but you don't call it the "Stealth Bomber" to win friends, you call it that to scare people), and presumably the deaths of thousands.
   461. Craig Calcaterra Posted: January 27, 2010 at 08:36 PM (#3447936)
I hate how every single time one of my posts gets linked it turns into a discussion of science fiction economics and war tactics. It's like friggin' clockwork . . .
   462. The District Attorney Posted: January 27, 2010 at 08:38 PM (#3447938)
Switch... Jimmy Smits
   463. PreservedFish Posted: January 27, 2010 at 08:41 PM (#3447943)
I have read every word of McCoy's on Star Wars here, and I think it's all terrific. Bravo.
   464. Sexy Lizard Posted: January 27, 2010 at 08:46 PM (#3447951)
Jimmy Smits is the answer to that all-important trivia question: "Who played the guy who was Crockett's partner before Tubbs showed up?"

And speaking of Crockett, that Davy Crockett device is crazy.

Small teams of the Atomic Battle Group (charged with operating the device) would be stationed every few kilometers to guard against Soviet attack, using the power of their nuclear artillery to kill or incapacitate advancing troop formations and irradiate the area so that it was uninhabitable for up to 48 hours, long enough to mobilize NATO forces.


So, basically the plan in case of Soviet invasion was to irradiate the West German border?
   465. JRVJ (formerly Delta Socrates) Posted: January 27, 2010 at 08:46 PM (#3447952)
Craig, I don't think I've ever been party to one of these discussions, so I apologize for somehow tapping into this weird kharma that you have.
   466. flournoy Posted: January 27, 2010 at 08:48 PM (#3447955)
Yeah, Alderaan had it coming.

Something that's always bothered me is how small the planets are. Dead Obi-Wan told Luke to go to Dagobah to seek Yoda, so he catches the next flight to Dagobah and happens to bump into Yoda almost immediately. Man, what the hell? If someone told me to go to Earth to find some dude, I'd ask him to be a little more specific.

Oh, so Obi-Wan is on Geonosis, is he? Well, we'll go find him. I'm sure we won't have any trouble. I know you could just explain all this with "the force," but that's a cop out.
   467. bunyon Posted: January 27, 2010 at 08:56 PM (#3447964)
I know you could just explain all this with "the force," but that's a cop out.

You don't believe in the Force, do you?
   468. The Good Face Posted: January 27, 2010 at 08:56 PM (#3447965)
Oh, so Obi-Wan is on Geonosis, is he? Well, we'll go find him. I'm sure we won't have any trouble. I know you could just explain all this with "the force," but that's a cop out.


A wizard did it.
   469. Cabbage Posted: January 27, 2010 at 08:57 PM (#3447966)
So, basically the plan in case of Soviet invasion was to irradiate the West German border?


I'm guessing the French came up with that one.
   470. flournoy Posted: January 27, 2010 at 09:00 PM (#3447972)
You don't believe in the Force, do you?


Let me tell you kid, I've seen a lot of weird stuff...
   471. Cabbage Posted: January 27, 2010 at 09:08 PM (#3447983)
Something that's always bothered me is how small the planets are.


Its not that, but my only real star wars pet peeve is that every planet has a single consistent climate. The Forest Moon of Endor? C'mon, if the planet is large enough to have Earthish gravity, then there cannot be consistent heating across the surface. So how can the entire friggin planet have nothing but forest? Where is the humidity coming from to provide the rainfall necessary for that sort of deciduous growth? And when the rain gets dumped in one spot of the forest, where does the next spot get its weather from. There have to be rivers with that much water, where do they drain?

I mean, desert and water planets are somewhat plausible, but I Kashyyyk? c'mon. (and I know about the theory raised in KOTOR, that doesn't change the atmospheric problems).

/thank goodness you people don't know me in real life. My wife would mock me mercilessly if she saw this.
   472. Ron Johnson Posted: January 27, 2010 at 09:14 PM (#3447992)
Craig, do you have a different type of off topic discussion you'd prefer? We've got plenty of people here who would go for theology if that would make you happier.
   473. flournoy Posted: January 27, 2010 at 09:15 PM (#3447994)
No, I agree, Cabbage, that has bothered me as well. Naboo is the only planet that is shown to have any diversity at all, and even there, it's not much. Even Coruscant is uniform in the sense that it's just an entire planet of urban sprawl.
   474. Juan V Posted: January 27, 2010 at 09:17 PM (#3447995)
#412 and #415 would piss me off to no end. Consider I've pretty much stopped playing the Resident Evil and Metroid games because they won't let me save whenever I damn want to...
   475. bunyon Posted: January 27, 2010 at 09:23 PM (#3448004)
My biggest problem with BSG was that for a ragtag fleet of survivors, they apparently had thirty separate news organizations, judging by the press conferences the President held in the first season. Really, we have a room full of people yelling "Madame President! Madame President!" with only 30-40,000 people?

These types of reporters are like cockroaches.

Actually, it was my impression it was the press pool travelling with Roslin when the attack occured. So, that explains why there are a bunch of nitwit reporters. Now to explain why 30-40 reporters are travelling with the Secretary of Education.
   476. Banta Posted: January 27, 2010 at 09:29 PM (#3448017)
My biggest problem with BSG was that for a ragtag fleet of survivors, they apparently had thirty separate news organizations, judging by the press conferences the President held in the first season. Really, we have a room full of people yelling "Madame President! Madame President!" with only 30-40,000 people?

They're reporters. They don't know how to do anything else! Imagine Mariotti in that situation. He'd be spending all his time still talking about Samuel Anders' intangibles and clutchness.

Not that he'd be wrong, of course.
   477. JRVJ (formerly Delta Socrates) Posted: January 27, 2010 at 09:41 PM (#3448030)
Actually, I figure the reporters didn't know what else to do, and they kept on "working" as if their news organizations were still operating.

Now as to who paid their wages (or gave them their necessary ration cards), well, we don't know enough (much?) about the economy of BSG, as I mentioned before, but perhaps Old Man Adama and President Roslin figured it was better to just humor these guys (versus haven't them throw a hissy fit if they aren't all allowed to act as reporters).
   478. bunyon Posted: January 27, 2010 at 09:41 PM (#3448033)
Mariotti: The Chief just isn't reliable. He's a big fraud who poops his uniform.

Paige: Are you kidding me? He's great. He's there all the time. He's a machine!
   479. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: January 27, 2010 at 09:45 PM (#3448044)
Really, we have a room full of people yelling "Madame President! Madame President!" with only 30-40,000 people?


Blogs, vlogs, hlogs, and doomsdaythinkfactory.org.
   480. Alex_Lewis Posted: January 27, 2010 at 09:54 PM (#3448054)
I have read every word of McCoy's on Star Wars here, and I think it's all terrific. Bravo.


Kinda. But the movies aren't about space tactics and plausible technology. If you want that, watch Babylon 5, or something. All the technology does is serve as a vehicle for Luke, Han Solo and Darth Vader. I mean, what's the point of having a prissy interpreter robot? There is no point other than that he's kind of funny. It doesn't add up logically, but then again, it's not supposed to. This is like complaining about how in Star Trek wicked aliens always attack Riker by doing an easily blockable fistchop (or whatever you want to call that move) instead of simply shooting him. If they shot him, he'd be dead. Even BSG has these kind of failures. Welcome to light fiction.

No, I agree, Cabbage, that has bothered me as well. Naboo is the only planet that is shown to have any diversity at all, and even there, it's not much. Even Coruscant is uniform in the sense that it's just an entire planet of urban sprawl.


Wouldn't that be difficult to follow? If every place was wildly diverse, they'd just start to blend together after a while. In fact, in the history of SF, has there ever been a series that involved traveling to multiple, highly diversified worlds? I can't think of one. If you're planet hopping, you keep it simple; if you're hanging around a single planet, you mix things up.

My biggest problem with BSG was that for a ragtag fleet of survivors, they apparently had thirty separate news organizations, judging by the press conferences the President held in the first season. Really, we have a room full of people yelling "Madame President! Madame President!" with only 30-40,000 people?


I'll bet the job market is pretty good when there are only 40,000 people. That said, just having a Walter Cronkite type handle things would probably be a better idea than having a mass of AP drones.

Moving on to space sims... Freespace is a hidden favorite that I believe was only played by me and a bunch of beta testers. Now *that* was a fun game. Wing Commander stole my adolescent heart, however. I've probably killed a couple thousand Kilrathi in my day. Anyone ever notice the design similarities shared between Wing Commander 2's Ferret-class fighter and the Vipers in BSG? Anybody?
   481. flournoy Posted: January 27, 2010 at 10:01 PM (#3448063)
Wouldn't that be difficult to follow? If every place was wildly diverse, they'd just start to blend together after a while. In fact, in the history of SF, has there ever been a series that involved traveling to multiple, highly diversified worlds? I can't think of one. If you're planet hopping, you keep it simple; if you're hanging around a single planet, you mix things up.


Play with us for a moment. We know why they made these decisions, we're just complaining that they don't make sense. We know that our complaints themselves don't make sense.
   482. Banta Posted: January 27, 2010 at 10:03 PM (#3448066)
You know, I bet Favre would have thought twice about throwing that ball if he knew that this thread was gonna be the result of it.
   483. Hector Moreda & The Generalissimo Posted: January 27, 2010 at 10:06 PM (#3448067)
Actually, it was my impression it was the press pool travelling with Roslin when the attack occured. So, that explains why there are a bunch of nitwit reporters. Now to explain why 30-40 reporters are travelling with the Secretary of Education.

There were also the reporters covering the decommissioning of the Galactica.

Tie Fighter was my favorite sim ever. The opening pro-Empire propaganda was genius. The guy in my dorm that had it, swore up and down that a friend of his watched it while tripping, and bought into it wholesale. My numbers 2 & 3 were The Battle of Britain and Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe. LucasArts had some wicked game designers in the '90s.
   484. Alex_Lewis Posted: January 27, 2010 at 10:19 PM (#3448081)
Tie Fighter was my favorite sim ever. The opening pro-Empire propaganda was genius. The guy in my dorm that had it, swore up and down that a friend of his watched it while tripping, and bought into it wholesale. My numbers 2 & 3 were The Battle of Britain and Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe. LucasArts had some wicked game designers in the '90s.


Okay. So I was tooling around on YouTube (as you do) and happened to come across a video of a couple of kids playing Monkey Island (don't ask me why). Damn their eyes, but all they did was complain about how much it sucked and how it was boring and stupid. What's the matter with people?! Thes kids didn't sound like idiots, but they certainly sounded like fools. Who hates Monkey Island? Who, damn it?! I want detailed answers!
   485. Ron Johnson Posted: January 27, 2010 at 10:36 PM (#3448099)
#484 Nah, Favre is willing to risk a Star Wars thread. That’s one of the things I most admire about him.
   486. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: January 27, 2010 at 10:37 PM (#3448102)
Anyone ever notice the design similarities shared between Wing Commander 2's Ferret-class fighter and the Vipers in BSG? Anybody?


Yeah, is was a homage to the original BSG, I imagine. Or that design is just common in sci-fi--thin body, three fins, boom, spaceship. Whatever, it had two lousy mass drivers. Give me a T-Bolt anyday.

Who hates Monkey Island? Who, damn it?! I want detailed answers!


This is one of the LucasArts interactive fiction games, right? Those were great.
   487. JPWF13 Posted: January 27, 2010 at 10:40 PM (#3448106)
They made 2100 DAvy Crockett recoilless rifle and they were in service from 1961 to 1971.


well the Davy Crockett used the same warheard, but had more range than the mortar. The mortar was never mass produced and deployed... at some point on the product development/acquisition/production trail someone evidently had a clue
   488. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: January 27, 2010 at 10:43 PM (#3448111)
   489. zenbitz Posted: January 27, 2010 at 10:45 PM (#3448114)
think where FO3 was groundbreaking was its ability to set mood and establish emotional depth.


Actually a step backward (except technologically) from FO1 and 2. But perhaps a step forward for console games.

The Naboo ground attack in Phantom Menace really bugged the crap out me as well. Both the Gungans and Droids arrayed themselves like it was Napoleonics (note that ridiculous infantry tactics show up in current movies like Avatar as well)

The clone wars technical manual mentions that a turbolaser on a Republic Cruiser (Venerator-class star destroyer) has a range of 6 light minutes. I guess if you can get the target to hold still for 6 minutes... (I suppose they should be commended for using a correct type of unit for distance).

One thing that always bugged me about Empire is that Hoth "system" and Bespin "system" are in the same system! The Falcon's hyperdrive is busted, and they hide (attached to the star destroyer!!!) until the garbage is dumped, then limp SUB LIGHT to Bespin!!!

As to why some fighters have hyperdrives... basically they are just like personal hyperdrive vehicles. It's just that TIE fighters (pretty much the only non-hyperdrive capable ships) are so cheap as to not have one installed. They also have essentially no shields (the only TIE fighter that ever survives anything like a direct hit is Vaders when it bumps into one) Perhaps to put it in SWU economic terms, building carriers is more expensive than 1000s of hyperdrive units.

Maybe X-wings cost 10x that of TIE fighters, but require 10 times the number of trained pilots (even more expensive than hyperdrive units, I am sure).

A point in your favor is that according to Wookiepedia, the Rebel flag ship can house 120 starfighters, which makes zero sense if they are hyperdrive capable. Possibly a fuel issue?

Still your assumption that the SW economics is broken rests on the fact that starfighter hyperdrive engines are "hyperexpensive" when there is little evidence to indicate this. Maybe it's as relatively cheap as a supercharger on a 2000's automobile.

The design choices of the TIE/ln could arguably be explained by Imperial military philosophy, which viewed the starfighters and their pilots as an expendable asset.


And they must be going "real space" much faster than c because they transit systems in minutes to hours.
   490. JPWF13 Posted: January 27, 2010 at 10:48 PM (#3448118)
Not to mention virtually no air support, no artillery at all, and no heavy weapons/tank support.

It's really quite amazing.


In the book
each soldier wore a head to toe suit of armour, and each suit had its own power supply, so not only was each soldier effectively bulletproof from head to toe, they could run upwards of 100 MPH, carry a ton (literally) of stuff, had instant communication with any other soldier, etc etc

all that was discarded for the movie, if you took a division of the movie's version of "mobile infantry" and had it fight a WWII infantry division (US/Uk/Ger/USSR...) I'm not sure what division would win...
   491. PreservedFish Posted: January 27, 2010 at 10:53 PM (#3448120)
Kinda. But the movies aren't about space tactics and plausible technology. If you want that, watch Babylon 5, or something. All the technology does is serve as a vehicle for Luke, Han Solo and Darth Vader. I mean, what's the point of having a prissy interpreter robot? There is no point other than that he's kind of funny. It doesn't add up logically, but then again, it's not supposed to.


My "bravo" didn't mean, "Oh man, McCoy is really taking it to those logical inconsistencies. He has proved them stupid beyond a doubt. I will never enjoy Star Wars again."

My "bravo" meant, "This is fun to read."
   492. PreservedFish Posted: January 27, 2010 at 10:55 PM (#3448126)
Side question: is there any great work of fiction or film in which everything - all motivations and sequences - is absolutely logical and watertight?
   493. Alex_Lewis Posted: January 27, 2010 at 10:58 PM (#3448128)
My "bravo" didn't mean, "Oh man, McCoy is really taking it those logical inconsistencies. He has proved them stupid beyond a doubt. I will never enjoy Star Wars again."

My "bravo" meant, "This is fun to read."


Fair enough. But have you ever considered the ramifications of Hitler's decision to largely ignore the British and engage in a two front war? If he had simply solidified Fortress Europe, the entire war could have turned out differently!
   494. Juan V Posted: January 27, 2010 at 10:59 PM (#3448129)
LucasArts had some wicked game designers in the '90s.


Oh yeah. Add Full Throttle and Sam & Max to that.
   495. Alex_Lewis Posted: January 27, 2010 at 10:59 PM (#3448130)
Side question: is there any great work of fiction or film in which everything - all motivations and sequences - is absolutely logical and watertight?


The Bible. Oh yeah, I went there!
   496. Banta Posted: January 27, 2010 at 11:02 PM (#3448133)
One thing that always bugged me about Empire is that Hoth "system" and Bespin "system" are in the same system! The Falcon's hyperdrive is busted, and they hide (attached to the star destroyer!!!) until the garbage is dumped, then limp SUB LIGHT to Bespin!!!

The universe was a lot smaller back then.
The Naboo ground attack in Phantom Menace really bugged the crap out me as well. Both the Gungans and Droids arrayed themselves like it was Napoleonics

I'm gonna relink to the Phantom Menace review from the previous page. I ended up watching the whole thing. It is worth it.

Go ahead, you're already wasting your life!
   497. Ron Johnson Posted: January 27, 2010 at 11:02 PM (#3448134)
#494 I can't find anything to quibble with in "Killer Angels" (the book that is -- the movie Gettysburg was annoying despite the earnest intentions of the people making it)
   498. Banta Posted: January 27, 2010 at 11:04 PM (#3448137)
The Bible

Please. God's character development arc from the Old Testament to the New Testament makes no sense at all!
   499. PreservedFish Posted: January 27, 2010 at 11:13 PM (#3448154)
The first thing I thought of was The Godfather. But there are a few little problems. I've never understood why Don Corleone was unguarded at the hospital - yes, I get that the cops chased away his strongmen, but why didn't any of them report this back to the family? Why was his extreme vulnerability only discovered when Michael happened to visit? Unless it was Tessio's branch in charge of the protection ... hmmmm.
   500. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: January 27, 2010 at 11:16 PM (#3448163)
500th!

Edit: Damn.
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