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Thursday, February 07, 2013

Curt Schilling: ‘Members of the [Red Sox] organization’ encouraged me to use PEDs

Grrrrr…Cot Deal says it wasn’t him!

mx

Curt Schilling, in a Wednesday interview on ESPN Radio, said toward the end of his tenure with the Red Sox he was encouraged to use PEDs by “members of the organization.”

“At the end of my career, in 2008 when I had gotten hurt, there was a conversation that I was involved in in which is was brought to my attention that this is a potential path I might want to pursue,” Schilling told Colin Cowherd.

Asked for more details, Schilling said the conversation occurred in the clubhouse and involved “former members of the organization — they’re no longer there. It was an incredibly uncomfortable conversation. Because it came up in the midst of a group of people. The other people weren’t in the conversation but they could clearly hear the conversation. And it was suggested to me that at my age and in my situation, why not? What did I have to lose? Because if I wasn’t going to get healthy, it didn’t matter. And if I did get healthy, great.

“It caught me off guard, to say the least. That was an awkward situation.”

Repoz Posted: February 07, 2013 at 12:04 PM | 110 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: history, red sox

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   1. McCoy Posted: February 07, 2013 at 12:12 PM (#4364902)
Do people still think Curt should keep on talking?
   2. JJ1986 Posted: February 07, 2013 at 12:13 PM (#4364903)
I find it hard to believe that Schilling kept quiet about this for so long.
   3. GregD Posted: February 07, 2013 at 12:16 PM (#4364905)
Theo?
   4. AROM Posted: February 07, 2013 at 12:21 PM (#4364909)
Could mean player or management. I'll guess Manny Ramirez, the roidingest roider who ever roided.
   5. Repoz Posted: February 07, 2013 at 12:22 PM (#4364910)
Next he'll blame Yaz for doing illegal isometrics in 1967.
   6. Dale Sams Posted: February 07, 2013 at 12:29 PM (#4364914)
If he means players...almost ALL of the players from 2008 are gone.
   7. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: February 07, 2013 at 12:35 PM (#4364917)
This is one of those things that, if it is actually true, could be a big deal or could be utterly meaningless. If it was someone in upper management then it points to systematic encouragement of PED use by the team. If it was Manny Ramirez or maybe the towel boy charged with unclogging Manny's toilet then it's entirely uninteresting.

More importantly, it's just another PED-related semi-leak. I'm sure he'll say a little more tomorrow -- "It was on a Tuesday. Late on a Tuesday." And a little more than that the next day, and will never actually getting around to saying anything that might make this meaningful. On PEDs we're long past the point at which people either need to say something meaningful or STFU.
   8. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: February 07, 2013 at 12:41 PM (#4364919)
Its funny that he didn't feel the need to be this open about PED's while he was testifying to Congress.
   9. Yastrzemski in left. Posted: February 07, 2013 at 12:41 PM (#4364920)
@1 - No.

@5 - Shhhh.

   10. Dale Sams Posted: February 07, 2013 at 12:48 PM (#4364927)
I would say this "Somebody may or may not have done something in front of some people stuff" is identical to his Congress testimony.
   11. Danny Posted: February 07, 2013 at 12:50 PM (#4364930)
From 2/7/08:
Curt Schilling has an undisclosed injury in his right shoulder, and the pitcher has been squabbling with the Boston Red Sox over whether he should have surgery that could cost him the season or try something less drastic.

Writing on his blog, 38pitches.com, Schilling said Thursday night that he has agreed to abide by the club's request to rely on rest and rehabilitation.

"There have been disagreements these past few weeks in an effort to provide me with a solution that would allow me to pitch as much as possible during the 2008 season,'' Schilling wrote. "At no time did I ever consider taking a course of action against the club's wishes. In the end, regardless of who agreed with whom, I have chosen the club's course of action and will vigorously pursue any and every option I can to be able to help this team to another World Series title in 2008.''....

"I knew in my heart of hearts that the extra time I was giving my arm to rest this winter would in fact be the cure for what I went through the entire 2007 season,'' he wrote. "I had a strong desire to not have to go through multiple cortisone injections in my shoulder for another year. There was absolutely no reason for anyone involved to believe I would be anything other than completely healthy and ready for the 2008 baseball season.

"Things have changed since then.''
   12. TDF, situational idiot Posted: February 07, 2013 at 12:51 PM (#4364932)
I find it hard to believe that Schilling kept quiet about this for so long.
Schilling? I find it hard to believe he doesn't give us a detailed account every moment of every day, because everything he does is obviously so important.

Schilling and Cowherd. Talk about two peas on a pod.
   13. Hello Rusty Kuntz, Goodbye Rusty Cars Posted: February 07, 2013 at 12:51 PM (#4364933)
there was a conversation that I was involved in in which is was brought to my attention that this is a potential path I might want to pursue


There are much more efficient ways to say that. Schilling needs more practice talking.
   14. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: February 07, 2013 at 12:54 PM (#4364935)
Do people still think Curt should keep on talking?


YES
   15. tfbg9 Posted: February 07, 2013 at 12:56 PM (#4364936)
It was Eric Van.
   16. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: February 07, 2013 at 01:08 PM (#4364942)
You all do realize that Schilling is probably telling the truth, right?

I know, I know: we hate him, we hate people who take anti-PED positions, and we REALLY hate players who do so.

None of which has anything to do with the fact that there's no reason to disbelieve what he's saying.
   17. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: February 07, 2013 at 01:16 PM (#4364945)
What, you think Bolshevik Bud appointed George Mitchell to *expose* a problem?
   18. Dale Sams Posted: February 07, 2013 at 01:18 PM (#4364947)
Not to mention #16, Cowherd asked him "If anyone ever approached him about using steroids." It's not like Curt woke up this morning and decided..."I haven't seen my name in headlines in a few hours."
   19. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: February 07, 2013 at 01:21 PM (#4364949)
Schilling and Cowherd. Talk about two peas on a pod.


Ugh, not even close. Schilling may be a blowhard but Cowherd is quite possibly the devil spawn of Rush Limbaugh and Glen Beck.
   20. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 07, 2013 at 01:23 PM (#4364950)
You all do realize that Schilling is probably telling the truth, right?

I know, I know: we hate him, we hate people who take anti-PED positions, and we REALLY hate players who do so.

None of which has anything to do with the fact that there's no reason to disbelieve what he's saying.


I like Schilling in spite of his right wing politics and his former laundry, I obviously don't hate people who take anti-PED positions unless they're complete idiots about it, and I don't hate players who speak out against PEDs.

But until Schilling starts naming names and agrees to testify about specifics under oath, we have no ####### way to judge the truth or untruth of what he's saying. One of these days he's going to have to #### or get off the pot.
   21. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: February 07, 2013 at 01:30 PM (#4364956)
I knew Schilling wouldn't recede gracefully from the spotlight but I just assumed that meant broadcasting or something. Good show, Curt!
   22. TDF, situational idiot Posted: February 07, 2013 at 01:34 PM (#4364961)
You all do realize that Schilling is probably telling the truth, right?

I know, I know: we hate him, we hate people who take anti-PED positions, and we REALLY hate players who do so.

None of which has anything to do with the fact that there's no reason to disbelieve what he's saying.
1. I have no reason to disbelieve Schilling.

2. a) I don't "hate" Schilling (don't know the guy). His public persona, though, is as a blowhard, a guy who took the state of Rhode Island for millions and then blamed them when his poorly conceived company went belly up, and hypocritical at every corner. b) I don't "hate" "people" who take anti-PED positions; I think they need to wake up and look at what pro sports has been for, well, ever. c) I don't "hate" players who take anti-PED positions, but a player like Schilling (a star during the depth of the PED "scandal" in MLB) is being a hypocrite to say anything now when he was quiet when he was a player.

If Schilling had come out right then - after MLB had banned PEDs - I, among others, would look at him differently. But it sure looks like he's just looking for a camera and a microphone once again.
   23. Dale Sams Posted: February 07, 2013 at 01:36 PM (#4364964)
is being a hypocrite to say anything now when he was quiet when he was a player.

If Schilling had come out right then - after MLB had banned PEDs - I, among others, would look at him differently. But it sure looks like he's just looking for a camera and a microphone once again.


Dude is being interviewed and he answered a ####### question. How is that being a hypocrite?
   24. Booey Posted: February 07, 2013 at 01:37 PM (#4364965)
Like all the Frank Thomas anti-PED comments lately, I think this is just Schilling trying to pimp his HOF case. Voters have made it clear that they're not electing anyone who even MIGHT have used PED's, so guys like Thomas and Schilling are trying to bolster their cases by making it clear that they were clean. If they really were, I can't say I blame them.
   25. Dale Sams Posted: February 07, 2013 at 01:42 PM (#4364970)
By the way...does anyone have a link to Schillings actual legendary testimony before Congress? I'd like to read it for myself...it's starting to sound like another of those "Red Sox myths"* like, Buckners game 7 error.

*Meaning 'clammed up before congress', will probably actually be 'Wasn't 100% sure, so he didn't want to lie to anyone'.
   26. rr Posted: February 07, 2013 at 01:42 PM (#4364972)
Andy is right here. Contrary to what Eso thinks (and makes a point of saying, multiple times, on every Schilling thread),not every lefty at BTF hates Schilling. I have said many times that I like some things about the guy, and if nothing else he would make a great Primate: he is an articulate, intelligent, baseball-loving video game geek who loves giving his opinions on his politics and just about anything else that pops into his head, which makes him similar to, oh, about 500-1000 guys here.

And I certainly get why he wouldn't want to name names on these issues, but if he is not going to name names, at this point, he would probably be better off talking about something else.

   27. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 07, 2013 at 01:56 PM (#4364981)
You all do realize that Schilling is probably telling the truth, right?

I know, I know: we hate him, we hate people who take anti-PED positions, and we REALLY hate players who do so.

None of which has anything to do with the fact that there's no reason to disbelieve what he's saying.


Well, what's he saying? Perhaps if he'd tell us. Or you can, since you seem to know. His story is so vague as to be uninteresting. Who was telling him to take what? Schilling doesn't say. So I don't know what I'm supposed to do with his story.

What do you take from his story? What is he telling the truth about?
   28. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 07, 2013 at 01:56 PM (#4364982)
I don't even have "sports hate" for Curt (Dodgers, Yankees, AJ Peirogi and other folks it is fun to boo). I don't have a very high opinion of many facets of his personality, but some parts are OK - like most people he is complex.

I have no reason to think he is not telling the truth, but the lack of specifics gives me no reason to think he is telling the truth - and besides it is steroids so I don't really care one way or another* (though management 'encouraging' players does seem more than a little problematic I admit).

But hey keep stirring the pot Curt.

* OK this is not really true, I don't care if players use, I am OK with there being negotiated testing and penalties, and I object to the moralism many folks have regarding PEDs and tghe retroactive application of their morality.
   29. Srul Itza Posted: February 07, 2013 at 02:01 PM (#4364988)
there's no reason to disbelieve what he's saying


The fact that he brings this up for the first time after so many years is a reason. You can say he was never asked directly, but come on, this is a big deal, and he has been asked about steroids and volunteered statements about steroids many times, and only now he drops this bombshell?

The fact that his adventures in Rhode Island cast doubt on his honesty is a reason. You play fast and loose with the facts once, your reputation for honesty may never recover.

The fact that he has declined to provide any details is a reason. Just making a bald statement like this, where there is nobody to contradict you, raises doubts.


Now, I am not saying he is not telling the truth here. But to assert that there is no reason at all to disbelieve him is to take a partisan position for partisan reasons.
   30. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: February 07, 2013 at 02:01 PM (#4364989)
I liked Schilling the player and don't have strong opinions about him one way or the otherwise (Rhose Island thing aside) - add me to the robinred and friends camp.
   31. McCoy Posted: February 07, 2013 at 02:01 PM (#4364990)
Him maybe telling the truth doesn't even matter to me. My point has been that Schilling is only talking about it now when it costs him nothing and may gain him something (Hall induction). If he truly cared about the issues he blows so hard about in baseball he should have spoken up then. He's a moral coward.
   32. base ball chick Posted: February 07, 2013 at 02:02 PM (#4364992)
i agree with robin and andy

pretty silly to hate schilling because he is a republican. so is pretty much every other ballplayer. it's not like he's a racist or wife beater or gay basher. he has a big mouth like a whole lot of guys right here. so he sez what he thinks. you want him to shut up because he doesn't say what you want him to?

liberal is supposed to mean that he got a right to his opinions and if someone asks it is fine to say em. it's not like he's stepping in front of the mic kanye style.

and i disagree that he should out other players. unless they are braying about how Clean And Pure And Sinless they are.
   33. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: February 07, 2013 at 02:04 PM (#4364994)
I'm a huge fan of Curt Schilling as both a pitcher and a guy-who-talks-about-baseball.

I have little doubt that this story is true. But as Fernigal says in #7, if this is about the roid-dealing assistant to the traveling secretary's trainer, then it's perhaps of mild interest. It could even be about some player's assistant or entourage member or whatever. I assume ballclubs attract lowlifes like that, it might be worth investigating for a story but it's not world-shaking. If it's about Theo Epstein and Tito Francona, it's the biggest roid story perhaps ever. Since Schilling didn't actually say much of anything about the details, it's hard to have much to say about it.
   34. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 07, 2013 at 02:06 PM (#4364998)
He's tiptoeing up to a line he needs to decide whether he wants to cross. Potentially interesting, but no there there yet.
   35. DFA Posted: February 07, 2013 at 02:08 PM (#4364999)
Like all the Frank Thomas anti-PED comments lately, I think this is just Schilling trying to pimp his HOF case. Voters have made it clear that they're not electing anyone who even MIGHT have used PED's, so guys like Thomas and Schilling are trying to bolster their cases by making it clear that they were clean. If they really were, I can't say I blame them.


My recollection is that when Thomas retired he was pretty annoyed at what he felt were hitters who achieved their totals through cheating. So his anti PED statements aren't a new thing. And in fact, if he is innocent than it is guys like him whose legacies are tarnished by guys like Raffy et al.
   36. Poster Nutbag Posted: February 07, 2013 at 02:09 PM (#4365002)
So.....this going to be the new "OT: Schilling" thread? I like watching train wrecks!
   37. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 07, 2013 at 02:16 PM (#4365009)
i disagree that he should out other players. unless they are braying about how Clean And Pure And Sinless they are.

Lisa, I'm not saying that Schilling should rat out other players. But I am saying that until he starts getting more specific, he's not advancing our knowledge with anything that we can put our hands on.
   38. tshipman Posted: February 07, 2013 at 02:16 PM (#4365010)
I have little doubt that this story is true. But as Fernigal says in #7, if this is about the roid-dealing assistant to the traveling secretary's trainer, then it's perhaps of mild interest. It could even be about some player's assistant or entourage member or whatever. I assume ballclubs attract lowlifes like that, it might be worth investigating for a story but it's not world-shaking. If it's about Theo Epstein and Tito Francona, it's the biggest roid story perhaps ever. Since Schilling didn't actually say much of anything about the details, it's hard to have much to say about it.


This is pretty much where I'm at on it. My assumption (since the incentives are for both him and Cowherd to do so) is that Schilling is exaggerating for effect here. If it were Francona/Epstein/Lucchino, that would be the biggest bombshell ever and probably warrant whoever it is being blacklisted from baseball.

It was probably a personal training assistant.
   39. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 07, 2013 at 02:16 PM (#4365011)
I have little doubt that this story is true. But as Fernigal says in #7, if this is about the roid-dealing assistant to the traveling secretary's trainer, then it's perhaps of mild interest. It could even be about some player's assistant or entourage member or whatever. I assume ballclubs attract lowlifes like that, it might be worth investigating for a story but it's not world-shaking. If it's about Theo Epstein and Tito Francona, it's the biggest roid story perhaps ever. Since Schilling didn't actually say much of anything about the details, it's hard to have much to say about it.

Pre-testing, it was in the best interests of front offices and teams to employ roiders, and to know more than their competitors about who in the player pool was roiding and who wasn't. (*)

If we keep that unshakeable principle in mind, and the knowledge that this is a very competitive industry filled with ambitious people who get ahead through succeeding competitively, many things naturally follow -- among them, discussions about roids and roiding between players and senior management. The world will likely never know about those conversations.

(*) Indeed, that knowledge falls squarely within the textbook definition of "exploitable market inefficiency." Was that part of the Moneyball approach to team-builing?
   40. Danny Posted: February 07, 2013 at 02:17 PM (#4365014)
Schilling's congressional testimony can be found here. Excerpts:

Mr. SCHILLING. No, I don’t think he is the only player. I think
he is a liar. I think that what he did was grossly overstate a situation to make himself not look as bad.
Mr. SANDERS. What would be your guess in terms of——
Mr. SCHILLING. You know what? I took an oath. I swore to tell
the truth today. Nineteen years in the big league, I have never
seen a syringe. Other than one prescribed by a doctor to a player,
I have never seen steroids.
Mr. SANDERS. But in locker room gossip? You may not have seen
it. Right. This guy is doing something. That guy is doing something. I don’t need names. What is your guess? You have heard
people say somebody is doing it?
Mr. SCHILLING. Absolutely. We have been through discussions
about other guys on other teams. I would say the percentage is on
or around where it’s been tested at. I don’t think it’s much higher,
I think it’s—again, I am in a locker room I have played with six
different teams. I have played with over thousands of players. I
would guess that maybe 5 to 10 players in the last 15 years were
using.

I would like to know the obligation that each of you think you
have for your team to make sure you don’t have drugs being used
by teammates.
Let me start with you, Mr. Schilling.
Mr. SCHILLING. Well, my obligation first is to the Lord and to my
family, my family name, above any of my teammates that I have
ever had.
Mr. SHAYS. OK. What do you think the Lord would want you to
do?
Mr. SCHILLING. To be as truthful and honest as you could be and
had to be.
Mr. SHAYS. Do you feel that means you should confront, even privately, your colleagues that are using them, drugs?
Mr. SCHILLING. I think that varies with different people
   41. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 07, 2013 at 02:22 PM (#4365021)
My recollection is that when Thomas retired he was pretty annoyed at what he felt were hitters who achieved their totals through cheating. So his anti PED statements aren't a new thing. And in fact, if he is innocent than it is guys like him whose legacies are tarnished by guys like Raffy et al.


Frank Thomas was 6'5, 275. It was mighty big of him to whine that other players might be using steroids to try to catch up to the massive weight advantage he had over them. Mighty big of him to try to preserve the huge competitive advantage he had over them by preventing them from using steroids to try to level the playing field. Oh, how Moral he is!
   42. Dale Sams Posted: February 07, 2013 at 02:23 PM (#4365023)
Thank you Danny.

also this:

Tweet: Lucchino said Schilling accusation (that someone in organization encouraged PED use) came "out of left field" but it will be looked into.
   43. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: February 07, 2013 at 02:23 PM (#4365024)
The key thing to understand the hilarity of Schilling's congressional testimony is to compare it to his comments before being subpoenaed.

   44. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 07, 2013 at 02:24 PM (#4365026)
Pre-testing, it was in the best interests of front offices and teams to employ roiders, and to know more than their competitors about who in the player pool was roiding and who wasn't. (*)


Note that the vague conversation Schilling refers to took place in 2008, i.e., after testing.

many things naturally follow -- among them, discussions about roids and roiding between players and senior management.


In the midst of a group of people? With others present who weren't involved?

That would be odd.
   45. Tripon Posted: February 07, 2013 at 02:26 PM (#4365027)
Its probably the assistant to the trainer or something. And there was a real cost to Schilling at the point and time. He already signed a contract in 2008, and was getting paid the full amount. If he got caught in season, that would mean he would have forfeited a good portion of that and the team would have benefited in not paying the salary.
   46. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 07, 2013 at 02:29 PM (#4365031)

It was probably a personal training assistant.


Don't worry; we won't have to speculate for long. We'll know soon enough, when Esoteric circles back around to the thread to fill us in on what Schilling was talking about.
   47. AROM Posted: February 07, 2013 at 02:30 PM (#4365035)
Schilling is such a tease. If he's going to bring this up, he should be ready to name names. Or else don't bring the whole thing up at all.

For probably more than half of the baseball public, this makes somebody look bad. Morally repugnant even, since steroids are the greatest of evils. Who looks bad? The GM? The manager? The trainers? Other ballplayers? We don't know. So Curt has made all of them look a little bad, since the readers will each make their individual judgments of who Curt is supposed to be talking about. Some of those people are innocent. Thanks a lot Curt.
   48. villageidiom Posted: February 07, 2013 at 02:31 PM (#4365037)
It was probably a personal training assistant.
Given the almost clumsy lack of awareness that the discussion should have been done in a much more private manner, I'm going to guess it was Manny Ramirez.
   49. tshipman Posted: February 07, 2013 at 02:33 PM (#4365039)
Don't worry; we won't have to speculate for long. We'll know soon enough, when Esoteric circles back around to the thread to fill us in on what Schilling was talking about.


I laughed.

Tweet: Lucchino said Schilling accusation (that someone in organization encouraged PED use) came "out of left field" but it will be looked into.


Isn't this sort of silly? How could you even look into this? It was five years ago! I know people love working in baseball, but how many people are even still going to be around from then?
   50. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: February 07, 2013 at 02:35 PM (#4365042)
etty silly to hate schilling because he is a republican. it's not like he's a racist or wife beater or gay basher.


Add in low taxes for the super-rich, and you've pretty much got the current Republican party platform in a nutshell.
   51. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: February 07, 2013 at 02:36 PM (#4365043)

I don't think Schilling has to name names, but I do think it's important to say what level of person within the organization, and to say whether he felt like this was an "official" directive/suggestion or merely someone going off the reservation.

Frank Thomas was 6'5, 275.

Obviously, that size must provide a natural advantage. I mean, look at all the 6'5, 275 guys who have become successful major league hitters.
   52. Booey Posted: February 07, 2013 at 02:37 PM (#4365045)
My recollection is that when Thomas retired he was pretty annoyed at what he felt were hitters who achieved their totals through cheating. So his anti PED statements aren't a new thing. And in fact, if he is innocent than it is guys like him whose legacies are tarnished by guys like Raffy et al.


True, I do remember Thomas speaking out against steroids while he was still playing, so his comments aren't new. It's just that to do so again right now when he's going to be on the HOF ballot next year just seems a little...convenient.
   53. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: February 07, 2013 at 02:37 PM (#4365046)

Isn't this sort of silly? How could you even look into this? It was five years ago! I know people love working in baseball, but how many people are even still going to be around from then?

I would start by following up with Schilling.
   54. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: February 07, 2013 at 02:39 PM (#4365052)
I know people love working in baseball, but how many people are even still going to be around from then?


The Red Sox clubhouse staffers are a bunch of guys who have been around forever. There are guys introduced on Opening Day every year that have been around literally since the 80s (yes, literally). Of course my guess is that these guys keep these jobs forever in part because of their ability to get steroids, Popeye's chicken, hookers and God knows what else without ever disclosing that information.
   55. SoSH U at work Posted: February 07, 2013 at 02:40 PM (#4365054)
How could you even look into this?


You could ask Schilling the ID of the guy who suggested it to him. That's where I'd start, were I truly interested in investigating it.

Like others, if it's true, I can't imagine it was anyone of importance. If you're a Red Sox official of any significance, do you want to suggest PEDs, after testing had been in place, to baseball's biggest loudmouth who has already paid lip service to being anti-PEDs?
   56. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 07, 2013 at 02:43 PM (#4365058)
Note that the vague conversation Schilling refers to took place in 2008, i.e., after testing.

Duly noted. Post-testing it remains in the interests of front offices and teams to employ roiders ... as long at they can get away with it. In Schilling's particular case, the Red Sox had no reason not to want him to roll the dice on roiding. Like every other team, they'd prefer the Bartolo Colon pitch unitl you're caught strategy to outright retirement.

In the midst of a group of people? With others present who weren't involved?

That would be odd.


Why? Nobody's going to tell. Hell, the reporters probably wouldn't tell.
   57. Dale Sams Posted: February 07, 2013 at 02:44 PM (#4365061)
If you're a Red Sox official of any significance, do you want to suggest PEDs, after testing had been in place, to baseball's biggest loudmouth who has already paid lip service to being anti-PEDs?


....and IN FRONT of a group of other players?
   58. bunyon Posted: February 07, 2013 at 02:46 PM (#4365065)
My money is on Pesky.
   59. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 07, 2013 at 02:47 PM (#4365066)
Like others, if it's true, I can't imagine it was anyone of importance. If you're a Red Sox official of any significance, do you want to suggest PEDs, after testing had been in place, to baseball's biggest loudmouth who has already paid lip service to being anti-PEDs?


I agree with you.

Now, if I were a clubhouse dealer I'd try to sell him some.

It is abundantly clear from the record that - quite contrary to the arguments that were offered up so frequently here that "these are professional athletes and they are extremely careful about what they put in their bodies" - most of these players will take something simply because someone suggested it to them. Particularly trainers, other players - even the random gym rat. Pettitte testified under oath that he took HGH without really knowing what it was because McNamee was giving it to him, and "I trust Mac; I would run through a wall if Mac told me to."

And of course the fact that these drugs are illegal now in the US makes it difficult for people to take them under proper medical supervision.
   60. Dolf Lucky Posted: February 07, 2013 at 02:47 PM (#4365067)
Tweet: Lucchino said Schilling accusation (that someone in organization encouraged PED use) came "out of left field" but it will be looked into.


Isn't this a direct confirmation that it was Manny? (i.e., there's always money in left field, I mean the banana stand)
   61. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: February 07, 2013 at 02:50 PM (#4365074)
I would like to hear WHICH PED, specifically, they were encouraging him to use. That wouldn't be outing anyone.
   62. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: February 07, 2013 at 02:52 PM (#4365075)
The key thing to understand the hilarity of Schilling's congressional testimony is to compare it to his comments before being subpoenaed.


The key thing to understand is that Schilling was being asked, under oath, about locker room gossip. That is a ####### joke.
   63. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: February 07, 2013 at 03:07 PM (#4365095)
Andy is right here.


Well, reach over & give him a dope slap, why don't you? Just on general principles.
   64. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: February 07, 2013 at 03:11 PM (#4365099)
The key thing to understand is that Schilling was being asked, under oath, about locker room gossip. That is a ####### joke.

True. That's its own separate joke, though. I don't blame Schilling for testifying the way he did, but I wonder if he regretted all his big talk about PEDs before being subpoenaed. The juxtaposition of his pre-subpoena bravado and his meek testimony make for a good chuckle. Nothing more than that, though. McGwire, in hindsight (and foresight for a lot of people), probably was the smartest of the lot.
   65. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: February 07, 2013 at 03:20 PM (#4365108)
So, in a nutshell, Schilling was asked to take PEDs for the good of the team, but he declined because he cared more about his personal reputation and numbers than about winning?
   66. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 07, 2013 at 03:24 PM (#4365113)
Schilling can't be certain which club official asked him to use PEDs, because the person was wearing a gorilla suit at the time.
   67. Guapo Posted: February 07, 2013 at 03:35 PM (#4365126)
It was an incredibly uncomfortable conversation.


Because they were shooting a needle into my buttock at the time.
   68. Heinie Mantush (Krusty) Posted: February 07, 2013 at 03:40 PM (#4365131)
Fern 7/MCoA 33 nail it:

If this turns out to be an example of institutional promotion of the use of AAS/PEDs, this absolutely changes the entire narrative of PED usage in baseball. This would be a post-Mitchell action by a team at the epicenter of the baseball universe. Moreover, this would absolutely obliterate the line (and one that I'll admit to having used myself) between amps and steroids, insofar as one was affirmatively promoted by teams (leaded/unleaded coffee) and the other simply a case of gross institutional negligence (let that jacked up trainer walk around with his pill kit!)

There are all sorts of really hugely problematic issues that could arise from what Schilling is saying if this came from any member of the BoSox in a high level role (and I'll include the team's S&C coach/trainer in that equation.) While I'm sure MLB will just keep quiet and hope this story blows over, I really think the best path forward at this point for MLB is to attempt to create an honest oral history of PEDs through a truth commission.
   69. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: February 07, 2013 at 03:47 PM (#4365140)
Pettitte testified under oath that he took HGH without really knowing what it was because McNamee was giving it to him, and "I trust Mac; I would run through a wall if Mac told me to."

And with the stuff he was shooting into me, I could do it too!
   70. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 07, 2013 at 03:59 PM (#4365155)
Fern 7/MCoA 33 nail it:

If this turns out to be an example of institutional promotion of the use of AAS/PEDs, this absolutely changes the entire narrative of PED usage in baseball. This would be a post-Mitchell action by a team at the epicenter of the baseball universe. Moreover, this would absolutely obliterate the line (and one that I'll admit to having used myself) between amps and steroids, insofar as one was affirmatively promoted by teams (leaded/unleaded coffee) and the other simply a case of gross institutional negligence (let that jacked up trainer walk around with his pill kit!)


Lou Merloni:
"I'm in spring training, and I got an 8:30-9:00 meeting in the morning. And I walk into that office, and this happened while I was with the Boston Red Sox before this last regime, I'm sitting in the meeting. There's a doctor up there and he's talking about steroids, and everyone was like, 'Here we go, we're gonna sit here and get the whole thing -- "they're bad for you."'

No. He spins it and says 'You know what, if you take steroids and sit on the couch all winter long, you can actually get stronger than someone who works out clean, if you're going to take steroids, one cycle won't hurt you, abusing steroids it will.' He sat there for one hour and told us how to properly use steroids while I'm with the Boston Red Sox, sitting there with the rest of the organization, and after this I said 'What the heck was that?' And everybody on the team was like 'What was that?' And the response we got was 'Well, we know guys are taking it, so we want to make sure they're taking it the right way.'

Where did that come from? That didn't come from the Players Association."

This isn't a "post-Mitchell" event (Merloni was with Boston through 2003). But it's also an account that not only didn't "absolutely change the entire narrative of PED usage in baseball," but one that was shoved back under the rug with incredble speed. Similar incidents have been described for other franchises.
   71. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 07, 2013 at 04:13 PM (#4365169)
Lou Merloni:
"I'm in spring training, and I got an 8:30-9:00 meeting in the morning. And I walk into that office, and this happened while I was with the Boston Red Sox before this last regime, I'm sitting in the meeting. There's a doctor up there and he's talking about steroids, and everyone was like, 'Here we go, we're gonna sit here and get the whole thing -- "they're bad for you."'

No. He spins it and says 'You know what, if you take steroids and sit on the couch all winter long, you can actually get stronger than someone who works out clean, if you're going to take steroids, one cycle won't hurt you, abusing steroids it will.' He sat there for one hour and told us how to properly use steroids while I'm with the Boston Red Sox, sitting there with the rest of the organization, and after this I said 'What the heck was that?' And everybody on the team was like 'What was that?' And the response we got was 'Well, we know guys are taking it, so we want to make sure they're taking it the right way.'


It was in the best interest of the Boston Red Sox that Lou Merloni take steroids. Thus, the Boston Red Sox encouraged Lou Merloni to use steroids.

This can't be a surprise.

It was also in Theo Epstein's best interest to know who was roiding and to what degree (and in his best interest that Red Sox players roided). Thus, the unsurprising passage in the Mitchell Report:

"When the Boston Red Sox were considering acquiring Gagné, a Red Sox official made specific inquiries about Gagné’s possible use of steroids. In a November 1, 2006 email to a Red Sox scout, general manager Theo Epstein asked, “Have you done any digging on Gagne? I know the Dodgers think he was a steroid guy. Maybe so. What do you hear on his medical?”

The scout, Mark Delpiano, responded,

Some digging on Gagne and steroids IS the issue. Has had a
checkered medical past throughout career including minor leagues.
Lacks the poise and commitment to stay healthy, maintain body
and re invent self. What made him a tenacious closer was the max
effort plus stuff . . . Mentality without the plus weapons and
without steroid help probably creates a large risk in bounce back
durability and ability to throw average while allowing the changeup
to play as it once did
. . . Personally, durability (or lack of) will
follow Gagne . . .


This passage has been in the public domain for many years now. Somehow, some way, Eric Gagne got pilloried and Theo Epstein walked away unscathed.
   72. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: February 07, 2013 at 04:19 PM (#4365173)
Maybe David Ortiz just called him over to offer him a milkshake. Schilling just connected the dots from there.
   73. Walt Davis Posted: February 07, 2013 at 04:20 PM (#4365175)
You guys have hit the points I suppose. He could have at least narrowed it down to "senior management", "player", "low-level employee", something.

Given there were other people around, his description also reads like a classic case where one guy meant it as a joke or a wry observation or a simple statement of the reality if Schilling's situation -- something between when I offer to amputate a friend's head when they've got a cold to pointing out to a terminal cancer patient that they've got nothing to lose in trying a crazy Mexican miracle. Sort of a "well, if you're gonna use PEDs, now would be the time." But Schilling took it seriously.

If it is genuine then, given the timing, the most likely PED discussed would have been HGH ... which, per the evidence we've got, don't do nothing but certainly a lot of players have expressed a belief in its injury healing powers.

   74. Walt Davis Posted: February 07, 2013 at 04:23 PM (#4365179)
The key thing to understand is that Schilling was being asked, under oath, about locker room gossip.

Moreover, he was being asked to "guess" under oath. Not Bernie Sanders' finest moment.
   75. Walt Davis Posted: February 07, 2013 at 04:27 PM (#4365186)
Theo Epstein walked away unscathed.

Not true. We made fun of him for still being dumb enough to acquire Gagne.
   76. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 07, 2013 at 04:28 PM (#4365188)
This passage has been in the public domain for many years now. Somehow, some way, Eric Gagne got pilloried and Theo Epstein walked away unscathed.


I'm not seeing what there is there to scathe Epstein with. "I know the Dodgers think he was a steroids guy." And?
   77. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 07, 2013 at 04:29 PM (#4365191)
Moreover, he was being asked to "guess" under oath. Not Bernie Sanders' finest moment.


Sadly, it probably was.
   78. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: February 07, 2013 at 04:40 PM (#4365201)
Curt Schilling is like Jeremy Roenick with more teeth.
   79. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: February 07, 2013 at 04:45 PM (#4365210)
Moreover, he was being asked to "guess" under oath. Not Bernie Sanders' finest moment.

TBF, if congress was looking for background info on the prevalence of steroids in baseball, a renowned player who made a point of mentioning he'd played for 6 teams and "thousands" of players is reasonably "expert" enough to answer. The irony is that if Schilling hadn't been so vocal about the issue prior to the hearings he wouldn't have been called. He sure made it seem like he knew what was going on. You can't fault a bunch of dummy congressmen if they believed it.
   80. Randy Jones Posted: February 07, 2013 at 04:58 PM (#4365230)
Curt Schilling is like Jeremy Roenick with more teeth.


In that case I need to ask Patrick Roy if I can borrow his Stanley Cup rings, cause I am sick of hearing Schilling talk.
   81. jack the seal clubber (on the sidelines of life) Posted: February 07, 2013 at 04:59 PM (#4365231)
Not Bernie Sanders' finest moment.


I have difficulty remembering what his finest moment was.
   82. Jick Posted: February 07, 2013 at 05:11 PM (#4365240)
Frank Thomas was 6'5, 275. It was mighty big of him to whine that other players might be using steroids to try to catch up to the massive weight advantage he had over them. Mighty big of him to try to preserve the huge competitive advantage he had over them by preventing them from using steroids to try to level the playing field. Oh, how Moral he is!


If you can take advantage of a situation in some way, it's your duty as an American to do it. Why should the race always be to the swift or the jumble to the quick-witted? Should they be allowed to win merely because of the gifts God gave them? Well, I say cheating is the gift man gives himself!
   83. stealfirstbase Posted: February 07, 2013 at 05:24 PM (#4365250)
Frank Thomas was 6'5, 275. It was mighty big of him to whine that other players might be using steroids to try to catch up to the massive weight advantage he had over them. Mighty big of him to try to preserve the huge competitive advantage he had over them by preventing them from using steroids to try to level the playing field. Oh, how Moral he is!

Sadly, I think Ray is probably really small. Also, I suppose Ben Johnson was just leveling the playing field in the olympics too, right Napoleon?
   84. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 07, 2013 at 06:10 PM (#4365295)
I'm not seeing what there is there to scathe Epstein with. "I know the Dodgers think he was a steroids guy." And?

And what I said in 39.

I'm actually sort of taking your "side" here and noting that front office people and ownerships enabled the roiding. Remember Big Stein crossing off the roid clause in Giambi's contract?

The accounting of the Steroid Era that leaves out things like the soout-Epstein email is incomplete.
   85. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: February 07, 2013 at 06:25 PM (#4365318)
In that case I need to ask Patrick Roy if I can borrow his Stanley Cup rings, cause I am sick of hearing Schilling talk.


That quip from Roy is one of the truly great moments in trash talk.
   86. willcarrolldoesnotsuk Posted: February 07, 2013 at 07:06 PM (#4365344)
That quip from Roy is one of the truly great moments in trash talk.
What was it?
   87. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: February 07, 2013 at 07:13 PM (#4365350)
This passage has been in the public domain for many years now. Somehow, some way, Eric Gagne got pilloried and Theo Epstein walked away unscathed.


I have no idea why Epstein shouldn't have emerged unscathed from this quote.
   88. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 07, 2013 at 07:27 PM (#4365360)
Remember Big Stein crossing off the roid clause in Giambi's contract?


Assuming this happened, all it shows is that Steinbrenner was concerned about it - but not concerned enough to walk away from the deal over it. I'm not seeing what the big deal is here.
   89. Randy Jones Posted: February 07, 2013 at 07:35 PM (#4365369)
What was it?

Roenick was on the Blackhawks and Roy on the Avalanche and they were playing against each other in the playoffs in '96:

After game 4, Roenick told the media,

"It should have been a penalty shot, there's no doubt about it. I like Patrick's quote that he would've stopped me. I'd just want to know where he was in Game 3, probably getting his jock out of the rafters in the United Center maybe."

Roy retorted with his now-famous line:

“I can’t really hear what Jeremy says because I’ve got my two Stanley Cup rings plugging my ears.”


The Avalanche went on to win the Cup that year.
   90. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 07, 2013 at 07:36 PM (#4365371)
I have no idea why Epstein shouldn't have emerged unscathed from this quote.

He shouldn't if the players didn't.

Why didn't he do anything to stop the roiding, if he knew it was going on? He was in as good a position to "do something" about it as, say, Jeff Bagwell.

Moreover, why did he enable the roiding by valuing players more if they roided?
   91. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 07, 2013 at 07:40 PM (#4365372)
Moreover, why did he enable the roiding by valuing players more if they roided?


Where did you get this "fact" from?
   92. Bhaakon Posted: February 07, 2013 at 07:49 PM (#4365379)
What's with all this talk of congressional hearings? Unless I'm missing something, Schilling testified before congress in 2005 and again in Jan 2008. The conversations he's describing is alleged to have occurred during the 2008 baseball season, after he'd already testified.
   93. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 07, 2013 at 08:37 PM (#4365397)
But until Schilling starts naming names and agrees to testify about specifics under oath, we have no ####### way to judge the truth or untruth of what he's saying. One of these days he's going to have to #### or get off the pot.

There really isn't an appropriate vehicle for Schilling (or anyone else) to testify under oath about these issues. What is he supposed to do, give an unsolicited affidavit to a bunch of publicity seeking politicians, or self-promoting journalists, looking to advance their careers? Should he send a statement to the MLB folks who seem to have broken every promise of confidentiality? Equally important, does he even have any Smoking Gun knowledge? I doubt Schilling is going to say "And then Manny handed David Ortiz a syringe, and Ortiz injected Dustin Pedroia in his butt, right in front of me". It seems more likely that Schilling (and others) would be more apt to testify that Player X told me that Player Y said that Player Z was taking PEDs. Or that X told me the strength coach knew a guy who had access to PEDs. Assuming there isn't an outbreak of self-incrimination, what is to be gained by chasing down those leads, threatening people with perjury if their version differs from someone else?
   94. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 07, 2013 at 08:43 PM (#4365400)
Re: #92--
People are bringing up Schilling's testimony as a cautionary previous example of his expansive claims, which ended up being scaled way, way back when the rubber hit the road.
   95. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: February 07, 2013 at 08:55 PM (#4365404)
Please. "Former employees". How convenient. And so what? If they were still employed, he'd tell who they were? I doubt it. And, "other people heard". How convenient. Who? "Oh, I won't say." Why not? Because you'll have to kill someone?

Curt, go away.
   96. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: February 07, 2013 at 09:26 PM (#4365414)
liberal is supposed to mean that he got a right to his opinions and if someone asks it is fine to say em.


I thought this was a conservative thing, what with strict construction and that whole, 1st Amendment thingy right there in black and parchment?

In any case, this is sleazy stuff. Cast aspersions on an organization, and let it twist in the wind absent details? Pretty shitty thing to do, no?
   97. tfbg9 Posted: February 07, 2013 at 09:48 PM (#4365418)
Schilling tweeted that it wasnt a baseball ops guy.
   98. rr Posted: February 07, 2013 at 10:00 PM (#4365423)
What is he supposed to do,


As many people have said, and as your post actually reinforces, he should probably just quit talking about it.
   99. Walt Davis Posted: February 07, 2013 at 10:12 PM (#4365429)
Schilling tweeted that it wasnt a baseball ops guy.

So it was a player, coach, trainer, doctor, accountant, janitor, broadcaster, owner, PR hack or the cutie who worked in payroll? We've almost got it nailed down!

Yet another prediction contest!
   100. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 07, 2013 at 10:36 PM (#4365445)
20 questions. Yay.
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