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Wednesday, March 28, 2012

Curt Schilling: Red Sox are growing tired of Valentine

Speaking on WEEI earlier this week, former pitcher Curt Schilling said that several players have complained to him about Valentine’s behavior.

“I thought that the manager that managed the Mets that I was not a big fan of was now going to be a different manager, and I don’t think there’s anything different at all,” Schilling said. “And I don’t think that that is going to be conducive to doing well here. There’s a lot of things I think that are happening not just from his perspective, but when you talk to these guys—and I’m still talking to some of these guys—I don’t think this is going well. And I think it’s going bad quicker than I expected it to.”

...He also said that the players don’t like how much attention Valentine has brought to the clubhouse.

“The point I made the other night was that he’s doing a lot of things right now that are forcing his players to extend their media involvement to answer questions about him and the situation when it’s already a challenge enough to do it, to play in this market and to win,” he said.

“Any time you introduce the wild card—the guy who’s going to flip over the spread or throw something against the wall or act and react in an unpredictable way—it’s not a positive thing.”

Thanks to Chip.

Repoz Posted: March 28, 2012 at 05:16 PM | 54 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: history, red sox

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   1. Wins Above Paul Westerberg Posted: March 28, 2012 at 05:28 PM (#4091649)
Humanity: Mankind is growing tired of Curt Schilling.
   2. Bob Tufts Posted: March 28, 2012 at 05:39 PM (#4091663)
WEEI installs wind turbine next to Curt Schilling.
   3. Ebessan Posted: March 28, 2012 at 05:48 PM (#4091667)
Curt Schilling is a metronome of opinions that nobody cares about hearing.
   4. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 28, 2012 at 05:51 PM (#4091669)
I'd love to see the Red Sox become the "Bronx is Burning" Yankees.
   5. Nasty Nate Posted: March 28, 2012 at 05:51 PM (#4091670)
Curt Schilling is keeping pro baseball from New Jersey
   6. Nasty Nate Posted: March 28, 2012 at 05:53 PM (#4091671)
I'd love to see the Red Sox become the "Bronx is Burning" Yankees.


If the seasons end the same way, me too!
   7. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: March 28, 2012 at 05:57 PM (#4091674)
<insert snarky comment about Curt Schilling here>
   8. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: March 28, 2012 at 06:00 PM (#4091678)
Curt Schilling writes of confronting dark elves of human realms
   9. Tripon Posted: March 28, 2012 at 06:01 PM (#4091680)
I grow tired of Curt Schilling. He's over 5 years removed from the team, and most of the players he knew aren't on the Red Sox anymore. So what if Josh Beckett ####### about Valentine? He has no rock to stand on until he produces again.
   10. Nasty Nate Posted: March 28, 2012 at 06:06 PM (#4091688)
Calcaterra: Looks like Magglio Ordonez is schilling
   11. tjm1 Posted: March 28, 2012 at 06:06 PM (#4091689)
So what if Josh Beckett ####### about Valentine? He has no rock to stand on until he produces again.


Beckett had a very good year last year. There are plenty of reasons that Beckett should be told to be quiet and do what the manager says, but poor performance is not one of them.
   12. Nasty Nate Posted: March 28, 2012 at 06:09 PM (#4091691)
John Lackey sorry for offensive Curt Schilling
   13. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: March 28, 2012 at 06:18 PM (#4091702)
Big Blowhard makes comment regarding attention seeking manager.

Is this even news?

So Valentine is trying to manage the team in his own style, isn't that what he was hired for? Let's see how it plays out this year. I'll hold my praise or criticisms until then.
   14. Gamingboy Posted: March 28, 2012 at 06:19 PM (#4091703)
Okay, so how many "feuds"/people-annoyed-with-him does Valentine have so far?
   15. tfbg9 Posted: March 28, 2012 at 06:38 PM (#4091718)
Curt Schilling is the nicest, warmest, most generous man I have never met.

He's also probably sort of sticking up for Tito here.
   16. Dale Sams Posted: March 28, 2012 at 06:47 PM (#4091728)
Seriously. "Red Sox players glad Schilling taking heat for their petulance"
   17. Misirlou is on hiding to nowhere Posted: March 28, 2012 at 06:49 PM (#4091730)
Curt Schilling elected to Orioles HOF.
   18. AROM Posted: March 28, 2012 at 06:56 PM (#4091743)
Still around from the 1987 team:

Beckett, Lester, Youkilis, Pedroia, Ellsbury, Ortiz.

In other words, most of the team's stars.
   19. Dale Sams Posted: March 28, 2012 at 07:06 PM (#4091752)
Still around from the 1987 team:

Beckett, Lester, Youkilis, Pedroia, Ellsbury, Ortiz.

In other words, most of the team's stars.
Page 1 of 1 pages


I'd put Evans, Burks and Greenwell over most of those guys in star appeal.
   20. Fancy Pants Handle doesn't need no water Posted: March 28, 2012 at 07:10 PM (#4091755)
Is anybody who played in 87 still active? I'm not even sure Jamie Moyer is that old...
   21. Dan Posted: March 28, 2012 at 07:15 PM (#4091758)
Schilling was Francona's biggest supporter going back to their days together in Philly. The fact that he'd comment on this situation acting as if he's being unbiased about Valentine is absurd and he should be embarrassed.
   22. Swedish Chef Posted: March 28, 2012 at 07:16 PM (#4091760)
Matsuzaka is still around, but I guess he hasn't seen much of Valentine, even if he was Schilling's buddy which seems rather unlikely.
   23. Srul Itza Posted: March 28, 2012 at 07:25 PM (#4091766)
If the Red Sox didn't want a managerial change and a lot of scrutiny this year, maybe they shouldn't have choked away their play-off spot last season.
   24. asinwreck Posted: March 28, 2012 at 07:34 PM (#4091775)
Moyer broke in with the Cubs in 86. Of course, Jose Canseco has offered Magic Johnson and the Dodgers his services as a pinch hitter. So, that would make two if the offer is accepted.
   25. Misirlou is on hiding to nowhere Posted: March 28, 2012 at 07:40 PM (#4091777)
Moyer (if he makes the team), and Omar Vizquel are the only remaining players from the 80's. Omar debuted in 1989.
   26. Koot Posted: March 28, 2012 at 07:43 PM (#4091779)
“Any time you introduce the wild card—the guy who’s going to flip over the spread or throw something against the wall or act and react in an unpredictable way—it’s not a positive thing.”


Management disagrees. The perception, true or not, was that Tito was too lax and the players took advantage of him. Even if that's only half true, it makes sense to have a more stern manager. Also, is Valentine actually known to throw temper tantrums? I know he's a bit of a smartass, can be tough on the media (which I personally think is great)... but I didn't realize he was known to "flip over the spread". I just can't figure out how Schilling can see how things went down last year and honestly say that having a different personality in the clubhouse is a bad thing.
   27. AROM Posted: March 28, 2012 at 08:00 PM (#4091790)
Brain fart. Meant 2007 team.
   28. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: March 28, 2012 at 08:52 PM (#4091829)
Okay, so how many "feuds"/people-annoyed-with-him does Valentine have so far?


In terms of people who have gone on the record concerning actual personal experiences with him since he took over, I'm not sure there are any. The media has certainly been trying, though.
   29. Dan Posted: March 28, 2012 at 09:13 PM (#4091855)
I just can't figure out how Schilling can see how things went down last year and honestly say that having a different personality in the clubhouse is a bad thing.


It's really quite simple. Schilling thinks that Saint Francona is perfect in every way and any manager that would dare take his job after he was fired is obviously terrible. See also: Red Sox fans on SOSH.
   30. The Yankee Clapper Posted: March 28, 2012 at 09:17 PM (#4091860)
On an afternoon edition of Baseball Tonight a few days ago, Schilling really lit into Valentine for "mismanaging" Bard's transition to the rotation. Too much emphasis on developing a change-up, a difficult pitch that Schilling said he never mastered; much better to have him develop the easier to learn and very effective splitter. Looks like there may be other issues between Schilling & Valentine, too. I eagerly await Bobby's response to Schilling's comments.
   31. Dan Posted: March 28, 2012 at 09:21 PM (#4091866)
Except that Schilling's whole premise for that rant was that Bard hadn't thrown more than 35 pitches in an outing when he was coming off a 6 inning 82 pitch start, because Schilling was going by the pitch counts in Gameday which count all balls in play as 1 pitch ABs, walks as 4, Ks as 3, etc. he claimed Bard had only thrown 105 pitches all spring. The fact that it was so clearly misinformation never crossed his mind because he was so dead set on tearing into Valentine.

Valentine should be smart enough to avoid responding to a guy who clearly has his head so far up Francona's ass that he can see out of his mouth.

And clearly Bard, who already throws a change up decently, should stop working on it in favor of developing an arm-shredding splitter from scratch.
   32. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: March 28, 2012 at 09:56 PM (#4091902)
Too much emphasis on developing a change-up, a difficult pitch that Schilling said he never mastered; much better to have him develop the easier to learn and very effective splitter.


Unlike much of what he pontificates about, this is something that Schilling actually knows a thing or two about and probably should be taken seriously on. At least as far as it the relative ease and effectiveness of the two pitches anyway. I have no idea whether it's true that the Red Sox put too much emphasis on Bard developing a change. And I've never heard the splitter referred to as "arm-shredding" before.
   33. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: March 28, 2012 at 10:16 PM (#4091919)
Bard already had a change. He needed to refine it and work on feel, but it looked like at least an average pitch, with the potential to be better, when he threw it last year, I'm pretty sure Dan Bard has never thrown a splitter in his life. I don't understand why you would have a guy learn an entirely new pitch rather than refine the arsenal he already has.

Schilling's advice sounds like, "Dan Bard should do exactly what i did in my career.". It worked for him, I don't see why it would necessarily be the best plan for someone else.
   34. Darnell McDonald had a farm Posted: March 28, 2012 at 10:34 PM (#4091938)
"I think it’s going bad quicker than I expected it to."

It was bad when the hire was announced. Valentine is a circus clown
   35. HeavyHitter Posted: March 28, 2012 at 10:54 PM (#4091953)
Valentine is much smarter than the average management-level employee in the industry and he knows it. If there are players complaining to Schilling, they are the source of the problem . . . and were probably the cause of last year's late-season collapse. Get rid of the gutless wonders.
   36. Srul Itza Posted: March 28, 2012 at 11:08 PM (#4091965)
Get rid of the gutless wonders.


Well that excludes Ortiz. If there is anyone with big gut, its BIG Papi
   37. ptodd Posted: March 28, 2012 at 11:25 PM (#4091976)
I doubt Schilling made up the fact that players on the Red Sox that he talks to are grumbling about Bobby V.

The only relevant question is does it matter. Players will continue to cash their big checks under Bobby V, and will do their best on the field since nobody wants to embarrass themselves and there is more money coming for the young guys.

The biggest problem I see with Bobby V is not keeping players happy, it's with overmanaging and attention seeking and conflict with the GM, and being dumb to accommodate any or all 3. For example, having Aviles lead off is dumb. Keeping Lavarnway as the 3rd catcher would be dumb. Not allowing Bard to start to open the regular season would be dumb. Waving to ejected managers to mock them is dumb. Complaining about another manager not wanting to play 10 innings in a night game on the road before having 2 day games the next day is dumb.
   38. SteveF Posted: March 29, 2012 at 01:58 AM (#4092021)
I wonder how many players liked Earl Weaver.
   39. Shock Posted: March 29, 2012 at 02:09 AM (#4092022)
I wonder how many players liked Earl Weaver.


Or, for that matter, Curt Schilling.
   40. Srul Itza At Home Posted: March 29, 2012 at 02:10 AM (#4092023)
"The secret of successful managing is to keep the five guys who hate you away from the four guys who haven't made up their minds." Stengel
   41. jingoist Posted: March 29, 2012 at 03:05 AM (#4092030)
Most Orioles accepted the Mayor of Baltimore because he got them to the world series and those extra WS dollars really meant something to those guys 40 years ago.
Some guys, like Palmer, enjoyed making Earl's life a bit tougher; Earl enjoyed the mental sparring with Palmer as well.
But then again, there's almost never been a bigger prima donna that Jimmy P.

With today's salaries I imagine that most players dont care nearly as much for the payday as they do the glory of winning a WS.
Way too early to tell about Valentine and Boston; I also dont doubt there are a number of prima donnas on that team.
   42. baudib Posted: March 29, 2012 at 04:14 AM (#4092038)
Seems really likely that Bobby V. is exactly the type of manager the Red Sox need right now.
   43. Smiling Joe Hesketh Posted: March 29, 2012 at 12:47 PM (#4092373)
Seems really likely that Bobby V. is exactly the type of manager the Red Sox need right now.

An attention-whoring media whore who criticizes his players to the press?

Um....no.
   44. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: March 29, 2012 at 12:52 PM (#4092380)
An attention-whoring media whore who criticizes his players to the press?

Um....no.


I think it is actually helpful. As annoying as Bobby V. can be I think having him as lightning rod is probably helpful for guys like Beckett, Lester, Youkilis and others who were in the middle of it over the winter. Obviously the media has not let last year go but I feel like having Valentine there to say God knows what at any time has taken that away.

If they had hired Gene Lamont or someone like that yesterday's off day stories would have been "you know, Beckett hasn't REALLY apologized for beer and fried chicken" instead of "Bobby V. sucks/is awesome and here's why."
   45. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: March 29, 2012 at 01:16 PM (#4092397)
The biggest problem I see with Bobby V is not keeping players happy, it's with overmanaging and attention seeking and conflict with the GM, and being dumb to accommodate any or all 3.


There is no evidence of conflict with the GM that is not a product of Chris Gasper's fevered imagination.

For example, having Aviles lead off is dumb.


IT IS SPRING TRAINING.

Not allowing Bard to start to open the regular season would be dumb.


Why? Plenty of reasonable people have concerns about this. Also, IT IS SPRING TRAINING.

Waving to ejected managers to mock them is dumb.


Who ####### cares? Are you serious?

Complaining about another manager not wanting to play 10 innings in a night game on the road before having 2 day games the next day is dumb.


Are you really taking the bait on this media-created story? Come on.

Look, I'll be happy to jump all over Valentine when he actually does something that matters, but the Valentine-derangement syndrome I'm seeing already is insane. Between this and thinking Iglesias should be the opening day SS, Red Sox insanity seems to be at an all-time high, which is saying something.

   46. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 29, 2012 at 01:23 PM (#4092406)
I'm pretty sure Dan Bard has never thrown a splitter in his life. I don't understand why you would have a guy learn an entirely new pitch rather than refine the arsenal he already has.

Is "learn a splitter" sometimes a code word for "doctor the baseball"?
   47. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: March 29, 2012 at 01:48 PM (#4092426)
Is "learn a splitter" sometimes a code word for "doctor the baseball"?


Maybe. It seems like the spitball doesn't get talked about much anymore. When I was a kid (y'know, when everything was perfect) it seemed like there were endless discussions of who threw it, anyone with a good sinker was accused and guys like Joe Niekro, Rick Honeycutt and Jay Howell got busted. And of course there was Gaylord Perry.

Now no one seems to mention it. I don't think I've ever read an article about Derek Lowe throwing a spitball but he's the kind of guy in the 80s who everyone would have just assumed was throwing it.

Not really a good or bad here, just an observation.
   48. Bob Evans Posted: March 29, 2012 at 01:52 PM (#4092431)
Is "learn a splitter" sometimes a code word for "doctor the baseball"?

I don't know about the splitter, but the spitter as I know it is pretty tough on the arm.
   49. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 29, 2012 at 01:52 PM (#4092433)
Maybe. It seems like the spitball doesn't get talked about much anymore. When I was a kid (y'know, when everything was perfect) it seemed like there were endless discussions of who threw it, anyone with a good sinker was accused and guys like Joe Niekro, Rick Honeycutt and Jay Howell got busted. And of course there was Gaylord Perry.

Now no one seems to mention it. I don't think I've ever read an article about Derek Lowe throwing a spitball but he's the kind of guy in the 80s who everyone would have just assumed was throwing it.


Yeah, I mean it seems to me that if you're a pitcher with great hard stuff (FB, cutter, whatever) and can't master a breaking pitch or change, a spitter is the answer to your prayers.

And, since the bottom falls out like a splitter, it's a great cover story.
   50. Bug Selig Posted: March 29, 2012 at 04:39 PM (#4092511)
I don't know about the splitter, but the spitter as I know it is pretty tough on the arm.


My understanding is exactly the opposite.
   51. Rafael Bellylard: A failure of the waist. Posted: March 29, 2012 at 04:45 PM (#4092517)
One of the complaints about Roger Craig when he managed the Giants was he insisted most all his pitchers learn the splitter, and a high percentage of them went on to have arm trouble. It does seem to be rough on the arm.
   52. SteveF Posted: March 29, 2012 at 06:54 PM (#4092605)
I think you're right. My understanding is that now they try and get guys to learn a change-up first, and if they can't get a feel for it, they'll try the splitter.
   53. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: March 29, 2012 at 07:27 PM (#4092616)
Curt Schilling is the nicest, warmest, most generous man I have never met.


WOW!
   54. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: March 29, 2012 at 07:53 PM (#4092623)
I'd put Evans, Burks and Greenwell over most of those guys in star appeal.


Count da ring!

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