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Saturday, August 27, 2011

Curt Schilling: Theo Epstein to Cubs ‘wouldn’t surprise me’

And others gems from the somewhat advanced squad leader.

Former Red Sox pitcher Curt Schilling joined Sports Saturday to talk baseball in advance of the Red Sox’ doubleheader with the A’s.

The Cubs have an opening at general manager, and there has been speculation that Red Sox GM Theo Epstein could have interest. Schilling said it’s a definite possibility.

“That wouldn’t surprise me. It really wouldn’t surprise me,” he said. “I think the challenge, though, is that Red Sox baseball is part of his blood and his DNA. But if you’re looking at the only challenge left for him in the game, that would be it. I think there’s a lot of ifs there, I don’t know.”

On spending big money on a closer:

“I don’t know, short of [Mariano] Rivera, maybe Joe Nathan for a stretch, has any closer ever been worth it? It was a fantastic conversation we had a week or two ago, we were talking about the [Albert] Pujols deal and what he might end up getting. If you can go back in baseball history and take players in free agency, can you name one player in the last 10 years that you can hand pick that was worth an eight-year contract? Has there ever been one? Look at closers over the last 10 years and you throw out a four- or five-year deal for a closer. How many closers have actually been worth it?”

Repoz Posted: August 27, 2011 at 08:51 PM | 37 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: cubs, red sox, sabermetrics

Reader Comments and Retorts

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   1. McCoy Wilfong for Money Posted: August 27, 2011 at 11:38 PM (#3910558)
If you can go back in baseball history and take players in free agency, can you name one player in the last 10 years that you can hand pick that was worth an eight-year contract?

ARod.
Manny Ramirez
Jim Thome
   2. morineko Posted: August 28, 2011 at 03:31 AM (#3910647)
He's right on closers...as any one of us who's had the misfortune of watching Schilling try to pin down the 9th knows. (1991, 2005, whatever)
   3. Everybody Loves Tyrus Raymond Posted: August 28, 2011 at 05:10 AM (#3910673)
Manny Ramirez
Jim Thome


Not in the last 10 years.
   4. Dale Sams Posted: August 28, 2011 at 05:50 AM (#3910675)
Not in the last 10 years.


Has there ever been one


Todd Helton
Derek Jeter
   5. charityslave is thinking about baseball Posted: August 28, 2011 at 01:16 PM (#3910715)
When CC opts out after this year and the Yanks resign him, how many years to you think he'll get? He's 31 now. If he gets 8, those last 3 or 4 years are gonna hurt.
   6. Darren Posted: August 28, 2011 at 01:43 PM (#3910725)
Wow, that was some fascinating insight on Theo.
   7. McCoy Wilfong for Money Posted: August 28, 2011 at 01:59 PM (#3910735)
Not in the last 10 years.

You wouldn't want Manny from 2001 to 2008? Or 2002 to 2009?

You wouldn't want Thome from 2001 to 2008?
   8. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 28, 2011 at 02:15 PM (#3910745)
When CC opts out after this year and the Yanks resign him, how many years to you think he'll get? He's 31 now. If he gets 8, those last 3 or 4 years are gonna hurt.

He got 7 last time, I doubt he gets more. I'd expect the Yankees to extend him 2-3 yrs. at $25-27M per on the extra years.
   9. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 28, 2011 at 02:19 PM (#3910747)
I'd expect the Yankees to extend him 2-3 yrs. at $25-27M per on the extra years.
4x23 + 3x27 = 173. I was guessing the extension would be about 7/190, but that's pretty close - the main difference is I expect Sabathia will be able to get another couple million per year out of the Yankees for his next four seasons.
   10. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 28, 2011 at 02:25 PM (#3910751)
-Halladay's last seven seasons have been so good he could sit out 2012 and he'd have been worth a huge eight-year deal.

On Theo, I mean, I don't expect that to happen, but it sure would be a story. The GM who ended the Red Sox WS drought getting a shot in Chicago? If Theo wants to be famous, if he wants to be the story, if he wants a serious historical legacy, it could be pretty appealing.
   11. ray james Posted: August 28, 2011 at 02:34 PM (#3910755)
if he wants a serious historical legacy


I think Epstein already has that.

I doubt he would move. He has a great situation right now, is on great terms with the owner, and gets to work in his hometown. Unless he's the type that has that driving need to keep proving something to himself (and he doesn't strike me as that type, since he resigned in that squabble with Lucchino a few years ago), he's not going to leave.

I think Cashman would be more likely, because I don't get the impression he's all that enamored with the working relationship he has with Steinbrenner fils. And even that's a bit of a stretch, I think. He would have to be blown away with the pitch the owner gave him.
   12. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 28, 2011 at 02:40 PM (#3910757)
He has a legacy in Boston. No one anywhere else is going to remember Theo Epstein in 25 years. If he won a WS in Chicago as well, he'd be a truly national, historical figure.

I'm not saying Theo will, or is likely to leave, for reasons such as you list, but if he has any ego at all, he must be thinking about it.
   13. ray james Posted: August 28, 2011 at 03:05 PM (#3910771)
No one anywhere else is going to remember Theo Epstein in 25 years.


Baseball fans will. Maybe he won't be a household name but he's already secured his legacy in MLB circles.
   14. Repoz Posted: August 28, 2011 at 03:12 PM (#3910774)
He has a legacy in Boston. No one anywhere else is going to remember Theo Epstein in 25 years.

He is respectively hated in NY and always will be.
   15. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 28, 2011 at 03:26 PM (#3910787)
I'm having trouble with this discussion.

Are you arguing that a GM who won the first WS in Boston in decades and then the first WS for the Cubs in a century wouldn't be remembered in a qualitatively different way from a GM who pulled off only one of those two? Are you arguing that it wouldn't be appealing to a person to have a chance to hit that exacta?
   16. TerpNats Posted: August 28, 2011 at 03:37 PM (#3910802)
Kenny Williams ended an even longer drought on the other side of Chicago; will anyone remember him?
   17. ray james Posted: August 28, 2011 at 04:20 PM (#3910834)
Are you arguing that it wouldn't be appealing to a person to have a chance to hit that exacta?


It depends on the person. And I don't think Epstein is the type that sort of thing matters a whole lot to. He's already in a great situation.
   18. robinred Posted: August 28, 2011 at 04:31 PM (#3910848)
Are you arguing that a GM who won the first WS in Boston in decades and then the first WS for the Cubs in a century wouldn't be remembered in a qualitatively different way from a GM who pulled off only one of those two? Are you arguing that it wouldn't be appealing to a person to have a chance to hit that exacta?


You're 100% right, of course. I don't much like the Cubs, and can't stand the Red Sox, but when the Cubs finally do win it, it is going to be a huge deal. If Epstein were the GM both times, that would be one of the primary angles of the media coverage. Personally, I am hoping the Indians get off the schneid first, but the Cubs will be a much bigger story nationally. I knew many non-baseball fans in San Diego who followed the 2004 ALCS and WS--same would happen with the Cubs.

Whether such an opportunity would appeal to Epstein enough to get him to leave a great gig like he has now is another question. I am sure it would take a massive salary offer.

Wild-ass mindreading: I would think the romance/narrative/opportunity etc. of the Cubs' job might appeal to Billy Beane or Brian Cashman. Walt Jocketty seems to like the Cincinnati job well enough, but I think the Chicago gig might appeal to him as well.
   19. robinred Posted: August 28, 2011 at 04:31 PM (#3910850)
will anyone remember him?

White Sox fans and Ozzie Guillen.
   20. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: August 28, 2011 at 06:12 PM (#3910935)
I'd expect the Yankees to extend him 2-3 yrs. at $25-27M per on the extra years.

Don't forget to add in another opt-out clause!
   21. McCoy Wilfong for Money Posted: August 28, 2011 at 06:14 PM (#3910936)
The only people that remember GMs from 25 years ago are old men and people that attend conventions.
   22. tfbg9 Posted: August 28, 2011 at 06:23 PM (#3910940)
Lou Gorman.
Never been to a convention. Only 50.
   23. McCoy Wilfong for Money Posted: August 28, 2011 at 06:25 PM (#3910942)
When hasn't 50 been old?
   24. GregD Posted: August 28, 2011 at 06:33 PM (#3910946)
The only people that remember GMs from 25 years ago are old men and people that attend conventions.
Who are the most remembered GMs, anyway? Not combined manager-GMs, which seems different, but pure GMs? How many Yankees fans could name George Weiss? Of the executives in the HOF who weren't primarily MLB or AL or NL directors, you've got:

Ed Barrow
Warren Giles
Pat Gillick
Larry MacPhail (though he was a part-owner for a while)
Lee McPhail (though he probably made it for being a league president)
Branch Rickey
George Weiss

The list could be a little longer or a little shorter depending on what you do with people who cycled through various roles and what you do with the 19th century and Negro Leagues people.

But Branch Rickey is famous with Jackie Robinson. And who is #2? Is it really likely that Gillick will be remembered, even in Toronto and Philly, in 25 years? Or Epstein and Cashman once they've been retired a decade or so?
   25. robinred Posted: August 28, 2011 at 06:41 PM (#3910950)
Ed Barrow
Warren Giles
Pat Gillick
Larry MacPhail (though he was a part-owner for a while)
Lee McPhail (though he probably made it for being a league president)
Branch Rickey
George Weiss


I think Rickey is the only GM who is really famous, due, as you say, to Robinson, although Rickey of course did much more than that.

But, GMs are perhaps watched more closely today due to FA and sabermetric infiltration into the MSM. I suppose the most famous GM today is actually Beane.

Still, the same guy being GM of the Curse-Breaking Red Sox and Goat/Garvey/Bartman-burying Cubs would be a huge deal, and I think it would get Epstein's name into the minds of a lof of casual fans in addition to making him a hero to two huge national fanbases.
   26. Kiko Sakata Posted: August 28, 2011 at 07:13 PM (#3910960)
Who are the most remembered GMs, anyway? Not combined manager-GMs, which seems different, but pure GMs?


I think the clean owner-GM-manager split with three different people holding down those jobs, and the general knowledge of who GMs are is a very recent phenomenon. I was a HUGE Orioles fan in the late 1970s / early 1980s. That was a hugely successful team for a long time. I'm drawing a complete blank on who the GM of that team was. The Orioles of the 1960s - 1980s were credited to Earl Weaver.

Branch Rickey is, of course, sui generis, because of Jackie Robinson (and, for more serious fans of baseball history, basically his invention of the modern farm system).

But the earliest generation of GMs who were potentially famous for being GMs, I think was probably Pat Gillick and Sandy Alderson. So, it's really far too soon to tell how more recent GMs, like Beane and Epstein, will be remembered 25 years from now, because I don't think there are good useful historical precedents.
   27. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: August 28, 2011 at 07:43 PM (#3910971)
Lou Gorman.
Never been to a convention. Only 50.
I don't think a GM of the team you follow really counts.

What's going to be really cool is when Wake becomes the Red Sox pitching coach a few years down the road, and then eventually Varitek's bench coach and, inevitably, manager.
   28. puck Posted: August 28, 2011 at 08:00 PM (#3910978)
Who are the most remembered GMs, anyway?


Al Campanis?
   29. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: August 28, 2011 at 08:24 PM (#3910991)
I was just about to shout (curse?) M. Donald Grant's name, only to realize that he was the Mets' chairman, not general manager. Joe McDonald was the GM when Seaver was traded to the Reds.
   30. Dale Sams Posted: August 28, 2011 at 09:23 PM (#3911015)
What's going to be really cool is when Wake becomes the Red Sox pitching coach a few years down the road, and then eventually Varitek's bench coach and, inevitably, manager.


I was under the impression that Variteks disdain for catching Wake extended to something personal in the past.
   31. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: August 28, 2011 at 09:55 PM (#3911033)
Could be Dale, that post was 100% aimed at tfbg.
   32. Something Other Posted: August 28, 2011 at 11:04 PM (#3911079)
Good thread, and I have a perverse enjoyment wrt how Sabathia is going to stick up the Yankees due to his opt-out. I asked on another thread and no one was familiar enough with the situation at the time of CC's signing the original contract to be able to say; does anyone here know why the MFYs included the opt-out? Was it a real sticking point, or just a sweetener?

It reminds me of Beltran's contract with the Mets, 7 years and 25mil more than the Yankees were offering, and Boras STILL got the Mets to agree not to offer arb at the end of the deal, which, of course, cost the Mets when they dealt Beltran this year.
   33. Marcel Posted: August 29, 2011 at 02:37 AM (#3911197)
It reminds me of Beltran's contract with the Mets, 7 years and 25mil more than the Yankees were offering, and Boras STILL got the Mets to agree not to offer arb at the end of the deal, which, of course, cost the Mets when they dealt Beltran this year.

How did it cost them? They got a top pitching prospect from the Giants. A prospect that has already had some developmental time and has shown himself to not be overmatched if worth far more than a supplemental round pick a year from now.
   34. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: August 29, 2011 at 02:50 AM (#3911205)
I was under the impression that Variteks disdain for catching Wake extended to something personal in the past.


I don't believe either part of that sentence is correct.
   35. pkb33 Posted: August 29, 2011 at 03:05 AM (#3911209)
He has a legacy in Boston. No one anywhere else is going to remember Theo Epstein in 25 years. If he won a WS in Chicago as well, he'd be a truly national, historical figure.

I think that vastly misstates and misunderstands, the place of a baseball GM in the national mindset. If Theo leaves, it's because he wants the challenge of 'doing it somewhere else' since he surely knows the national impact of winning it elsewhere (even as a 'second win') will be a lot smaller than it was when he 1) won it in Boston and 2) won it with the media-friendly 'boy genius wins for hometown team' storyline.
   36. robinred Posted: August 29, 2011 at 03:22 AM (#3911217)
elsewhere


Not if "elsewhere" is the North Side of Chicago. There is not quite as much BS/navel-gazing/books etc. about the Cubs as there were, and are, about the Red Sox, due mostly to the Northeastern corridor media presence and the Boston's numerous near-misses, but if and when the Cubs win the World Series; hell, even if they MAKE it to the World Series, it will be a huge deal. And there is plenty of BS out there about the Cubs now.

Epstein's being GM of BOTH teams would be a very big deal and a nice angle for the media.

I think there is almost no chance that Epstein will actually leave Boston, but if he left to take over the Cubs, it would be a big deal. If they won the pennant or the WS under him, it would be a huge deal. This is a team in a big market in an iconic ballpark with a 103-year drought. No Bambino and Bucky and no Bill Simmons, but they have Bartman and the goat, and it will be huge.
   37. T.J. Posted: August 29, 2011 at 08:23 PM (#3911678)
Has there ever been one?

How long were Bonds's contracts?

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