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Wednesday, January 24, 2018

Cut the nonsense: Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds should be in the Hall of Fame - The Washington Post

My name is Jim. I no longer don’t care who gets in the Hall of Fame.

Jim Furtado Posted: January 24, 2018 at 09:10 AM | 37 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: hall of fame

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   1. Rennie's Tenet Posted: January 24, 2018 at 09:28 AM (#5612258)
Why isn't the article focused on rescinding the character clauses. Why is that almost never the subject of discussion? I'm not asking rhetorically - I'm curious why the rule itself doesn't receive more opposition.
   2. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 24, 2018 at 09:35 AM (#5612265)
Why isn't the article focused on rescinding the character clauses. Why is that almost never the subject of discussion? I'm not asking rhetorically - I'm curious why the rule itself doesn't receive more opposition.

Because if we find out that a player raped or killed someone, we still want to be able to keep him out.
   3. Russ Posted: January 24, 2018 at 09:49 AM (#5612267)
Why isn't the article focused on rescinding the character clauses. Why is that almost never the subject of discussion? I'm not asking rhetorically - I'm curious why the rule itself doesn't receive more opposition.


You always want to have something in the fine print to protect yourself from potential embarrassment. I don't have a problem with the character clause, in general. I do have a problem with inconsistent application of it... as the article says, there are people who used PED's in the HOF, there are people who did other things to gain advantages over opponents that were actually against the rules. No one (well, no reasonable person) believes that Clemens or Bonds started using steroids during the period when they became inner circle HOF players, which makes them fundamentally different from McGwire and Palmeiro and several others. Based on past behaviour of the HOF voting committee, they should be in, but for some reason, the voters are excluding Bonds and Clemens for *personal* reasons, either because they never liked them in the first place or because they are so disappointed about having to view the ends of their careers differently.
   4. Batman Posted: January 24, 2018 at 10:24 AM (#5612289)
Jack Morris raped and killed to the score.
   5. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 24, 2018 at 10:33 AM (#5612295)
Far to obvious a point to be an interesting article. I means seriously, in other news water is wet, Minnesota winters are cold, and breaking news, people like sex!
   6. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 24, 2018 at 10:37 AM (#5612301)

Also, Bonds and Clemens are innocent.
   7. DanG Posted: January 24, 2018 at 11:48 AM (#5612390)
...until proven guilty.
   8. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 24, 2018 at 11:56 AM (#5612403)
Also, Bonds and Clemens are innocent.

Clemens maybe. Bonds definitely used PEDs. And please don't insult our intelligence by saying he didn't know what the "Cream" and the "Clear" were.

...until proven guilty.

A standard that literally only applies in criminal court.
   9. Greg Pope Posted: January 24, 2018 at 12:07 PM (#5612415)
My name is Jim. I no longer don’t care who gets in the Hall of Fame.

So... you do care now?
   10. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: January 24, 2018 at 12:08 PM (#5612421)
I no longer don’t care who gets in the Hall of Fame.


So you DO care?
   11. dejarouehg Posted: January 24, 2018 at 12:14 PM (#5612424)
Hi Jim and welcome to the double negative club. We no longer don't care either.
   12. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: January 24, 2018 at 12:17 PM (#5612430)
I never didn't care.
   13. Tin Angel Posted: January 24, 2018 at 12:18 PM (#5612431)
Buster Olney pretty much nailed it:

Buster Olney @Buster_ESPN
To review, on Clemens/Bonds.
1. MLB: views them as members in good standing, unlike Rose, Shoeless Joe. Both eligible to work for teams.
2. Hall of Fame: views them as members in good standing. Places them on ballot annually.
3. BBWAA: Have effectively rendered a lifetime ban.
   14. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 24, 2018 at 12:18 PM (#5612433)
He could care less. Or maybe he couldn't not care less.
   15. Batman Posted: January 24, 2018 at 12:25 PM (#5612442)
Never heard him not care.
   16. wjones Posted: January 24, 2018 at 12:37 PM (#5612461)
Buster Olney pretty much nailed it:

Buster Olney @Buster_ESPN
To review, on Clemens/Bonds.
1. MLB: views them as members in good standing, unlike Rose, Shoeless Joe. Both eligible to work for teams.
2. Hall of Fame: views them as members in good standing. Places them on ballot annually.
3. BBWAA: Have effectively rendered a lifetime ban.


The only part of the above I might question is the HOF. They publicly don't take any position, as their names appear on the ballot each year. But also, the Vice President of the HOF sends out a letter to writers beseeching them not to vote for them. He doesn't state this is the HOF official position, but he does issue it on their letterhead.
   17. McCoy Posted: January 24, 2018 at 12:52 PM (#5612474)
As I’ve aged I have cared less and less about the Hall. I guess it’s dont get old enough to the point where players you saw for their entire career become eligible for the Hall.

Speaking of getting old I’m rapidly realizing I am now viewed as part of the older generation. I’ve got dentists talking to me about what I need to do to take care of my teeth during this phase of my life. I’ve got eye doctors telling me how my eyes are going to decline in this phase of my life and so on. People, I still remember 2002 like it was yesterday!
   18. Walt Davis Posted: January 24, 2018 at 03:54 PM (#5612712)
I still remember 2002 like it was yesterday!

A sure sign of being old ... as if anything that happened as long ago as 2002 could possibly have any relevance to today.
   19. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 24, 2018 at 04:27 PM (#5612734)
2002 was yesterday. Say, what year do you think it is?
   20. dlf Posted: January 24, 2018 at 04:32 PM (#5612739)
Nah, 1993 was yesterday; 2002 was earlier this morning.
   21. Batman Posted: January 24, 2018 at 04:38 PM (#5612742)
I'm still looking forward to the flying cars we'll have in the year 2000.
   22. Lars6788 Posted: January 24, 2018 at 04:43 PM (#5612747)


Clemens maybe. Bonds definitely used PEDs. And please don't insult our intelligence by saying he didn't know what the "Cream" and the "Clear" were.


BS on this idea Clemens is clean as a whistle
   23. dlf Posted: January 24, 2018 at 04:49 PM (#5612749)
#22 - All of which were kept by McNamee for years in an old drink can. And none of which had any trace amounts of any PEDs. Or circumstantial at best proof of anything. We are back to believing the word of someone fired by a police department for lying about investigations.
   24. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 24, 2018 at 05:23 PM (#5612773)

BS on this idea Clemens is clean as a whistle
A certified liar fabricated evidence. Big whoop.
   25. formerly dp Posted: January 24, 2018 at 06:38 PM (#5612841)
Bonds should def be in. Clemens not so much. Because #### the Yankees.
   26. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 24, 2018 at 06:42 PM (#5612847)
I actually... can't argue with the logic of #25.
   27. Batman Posted: January 24, 2018 at 06:52 PM (#5612859)
But Clemens was already a Hall of Famer before he (took PEDs/became a Yankee/raped and murdered).
   28. ptodd Posted: January 24, 2018 at 07:12 PM (#5612876)
My sentiments exactly. The HOF is officially irrelevant to me and I could care less who gets in or who does not. I'm done with it.
   29. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 24, 2018 at 08:12 PM (#5612933)
The HOF is officially irrelevant to me and I could care less who gets in or who does not.

But how much less could you care in the future than you care now? You seem pretty down on the HoF, so can I put you down for 50%?
   30. Hysterical & Useless Posted: January 25, 2018 at 02:43 PM (#5613352)
Unlike any other human institution, the Hall of Fame is imperfect. Therefore, I care not one whit for the Hall of Fame.

Gotta get back to the HoF announcement thread!
   31. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 25, 2018 at 02:47 PM (#5613358)
Bonds should def be in. Clemens not so much. Because #### the Yankees.

But the Yankees employed Bonds' father in 1975, which kept a roof over young Barry's then-normal-sized head when he was 11. So they're at least somewhat responsible for him as well.
   32. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 25, 2018 at 02:52 PM (#5613365)
Bonds should def be in. Clemens not so much. Because #### the Yankees.

You realize no Yankee fans actually like Clemens, right?
   33. SoSH U at work Posted: January 25, 2018 at 03:04 PM (#5613390)
You realize no Yankee fans actually like Clemens, right?


Does Suzyn Waldman count as a fan? I seem to recall she was quite smitten.
   34. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 25, 2018 at 05:14 PM (#5613517)
You realize no Yankee fans actually like Clemens, right?

I cheered him when he was winning, and got disgusted with him when he wasn't. AFAIWC he was always on a short hook, but his personal traits weren't here or there.
   35. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: January 25, 2018 at 05:32 PM (#5613532)
#34:
I cheered him when he was winning, and got disgusted with him when he wasn't.


Sounds like your Clemens fandom was Icy Hot.

https://deadspin.com/163170/roger-clemens-hates-his-crotch
   36. Zach Posted: January 25, 2018 at 07:41 PM (#5613581)
Buster Olney @Buster_ESPN
To review, on Clemens/Bonds.
1. MLB: views them as members in good standing, unlike Rose, Shoeless Joe. Both eligible to work for teams.
2. Hall of Fame: views them as members in good standing. Places them on ballot annually.
<st>3. BBWAA: Have effectively rendered a lifetime ban.</st>


3. BBWAA: Declines to vote for them.

Fixed.
   37. Zach Posted: January 25, 2018 at 07:47 PM (#5613583)
I actually like that the standard for the HOF is an election. Defined statistical thresholds are just deciding in advance which mistakes you're willing to make.

As is, there's a case to put 'em in and a case to keep 'em out. If you can't persuade the holdouts, you don't go in.

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