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Sunday, March 31, 2013

OTP: April 2013: Daily Caller: Baseball and the GOP: To rebrand the party, think like a sports fan

This week’s GOP autopsy report, commissioned by RNC Chairman Reince Priebus, is a great start in the much-needed task of rebranding the Republican Party. As the chairman acknowledged, “the way we communicate our principles isn’t resonating widely enough” and “we have to be more inclusive.” The report contains 219 recommendations to “connect people to our principles.” To achieve that goal, the party will need a strategic vision of how voters think about politics, which is something that the report lacks. For that, the GOP can learn a lot from another American passion: baseball.

This year, about 75 million Americans will go to the baseball stadium to watch a ballgame, about the same number as those who will vote in next year’s election. We rarely think about why someone becomes a baseball fan, or why they root for a certain team. Nor do we usually think about why someone chooses to vote for a certain political party. But it’s actually a very useful exercise.

When it comes to baseball, fan loyalty has almost nothing to do with the brain, and almost everything to do with the heart. In all of history, there’s never been a baseball fan who rooted for his team because it had the lowest ticket prices, or because it had the most taxpayer-friendly stadium deal, or because its players did the most community service. For the vast majority of Americans, rooting for a baseball team — not to mention, voting for a political party — isn’t really a rational choice; it’s more of a statement of personal identity — a statement telling the world, “This is who I am.” And for most people, defining “who I am” starts with family and community, before branching out into areas like race, age, gender, and class.

Family is pretty straightforward. If your mom and dad are Yankee fans, you’re almost certainly a Yankee fan. The same is true in politics. If your mom and dad are Republicans, you’re almost certainly a Republican.

Community is also pretty straightforward. If you grew up in, say, Philadelphia, chances are pretty great you’re a Phillies fan. Likewise, someone who grew up in Republican territory like, say, suburban Dallas or rural Indiana is much more likely to become a Republican than a nearly identical person from Seattle or Santa Fe.

Cities with more than one baseball team, like New York or Chicago, show revealing breakdowns by race and gender. The racial split in Chicago between Cubs fans on the North Side and White Sox fans on the South Side is well-documented. In New York, there’s an intriguing gender gap between Mets and Yankee fans, with women gravitating a lot more to the Yanks. While there’s a few theories out there trying to explain that, one obvious answer leaps out: Yankees heartthrob Derek Jeter.

In sports, as in politics, people’s convictions can’t be conveniently reduced to who their parents are or what they look like. But those things are an important foundation, upon which more rational sentiments come into being. Once you’re attached to your team on an emotional level — seeing them as a personal reflection of who you are and what you care about most — a rational exterior comes into being through phrases like “the Red Sox are the best team because they have the most heart” or “the Republicans are the best party because they know how to create jobs.”

Tripon Posted: March 31, 2013 at 10:52 AM | 6544 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1701. Publius Publicola Posted: April 09, 2013 at 08:39 PM (#4408975)
Nevermind that this isn't Nate's field. He's a computer scientist -- which is actually the problem with a lot of the cc data: the modeling is being done by computer people.


But a lawyer now. Yes, a lawyer like Ray, now there's someone who has the training to critique climate models.

Ray, you really are endlessly entertaining. Your lack of self-awareness is so endearing, like a puppy who keeps barking at his shadow.
   1702. Morty Causa Posted: April 09, 2013 at 08:44 PM (#4408989)
And just to make it personal in a non-snarky way, how many people posting here have American born ancestors on both sides of their family tree that go back before 1848?


My French ancestors probably came to Lousiana from Nova Scotia in the Acadian diaspora (ahem), and also from a fort in Alabama when the French ceded the territory to the English after the French and English war. Which makes both about the same time. The ones in Alabama had been there since the early 1730s. My English ancestry came to Lousiana from South Carolina in the early 1830s. I'm not sure when they came from England to America--back in the early 1700s probably.
   1703. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 09, 2013 at 08:47 PM (#4408997)
Ray, you really are endlessly entertaining. Your lack of self-awareness is so endearing, like a puppy who keeps barking at his shadow.

At least he's not a classless scumbag like you, who was cheering the death of an old woman with Alzheimer's yesterday. (Or a pathetic coward who hides behind an alias while cheering the death of an old woman with Alzheimer's.)
   1704. Morty Causa Posted: April 09, 2013 at 08:47 PM (#4408998)
Don't kid yourself, a huge part of the support for high immigration among the upper-middle class is the desire for cheap nannies and gardeners.


Yes, I've always said the reason the efforts at restricting illegal immigration have been so half-hearted is that the Democrats believe they'll get eventual voters and the Republicans believe they'll get cheap servants.
   1705. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 09, 2013 at 08:47 PM (#4408999)
But you should hire someone who is legally eligible to work in the US and pay them a fair wage and benefits (if your company has them).
A fair wage? Not an "as low as I possibly get away with" wage? Because if not, you're just some kind of socialist monster.
   1706. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 09, 2013 at 08:49 PM (#4409004)
A fair wage? Not an "as low as I possibly get away with" wage? Because if not, you're just some kind of socialist monster.

I'm a Distributist monster, thank you very much.

And yes, a fair wage. We pay our cleaning lady $85 for ~4 hours work, every 2 weeks; and she's legal. We raise it every year w/o her asking. I'm sure I could get cheaper, but I won't.
   1707. McCoy Posted: April 09, 2013 at 08:49 PM (#4409005)
No. But you should hire someone who is legally eligible to work in the US and pay them a fair wage and benefits (if your company has them). You shouldn't pick up an illegal at Home Depot and pay him $5/hr.

Why not? Reform immigration and then that guy won't be an illegal.

   1708. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 09, 2013 at 08:51 PM (#4409007)
No. But you should hire someone who is legally eligible to work in the US and pay them a fair wage and benefits (if your company has them). You shouldn't pick up an illegal at Home Depot and pay him $5/hr.

Concur, of course. Well, I wouldn't pay him $5/hr, I'd pay him whatever I'd pay anyone else for the job, and I suppose if his circumstances were lousy I'd be morally obliged to hire him at a good wage. Other than that, though... concur.

I was talking about building trades. For yard service, you could use a contractor that does part of the work himself, and hires legal workers.

Not sure what you mean by 'yard service'. Are we talking about someone who can't do it themselves any longer and needs someone to mow the lawn and occasionally trim the hedges...? Yard service sounds to me like the kind of thing you look for when you have a chi-chi garden, paths that need clearing and regular mulching, trees that need pruning, flowers that need specialized knowledge and care, and so on.
   1709. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 09, 2013 at 08:53 PM (#4409009)
Not sure what you mean by 'yard service'. Are we talking about someone who can't do it themselves any longer and needs someone to mow the lawn and occasionally trim the hedges...? Yard service sounds to me like the kind of thing you look for when you have a chi-chi garden, paths that need clearing, trees that need pruning, and so on.

Lot's of people in my neighborhood hire someone to mow the lawn and rake the leaves. Usually the same guys plow snow in the winter. We don't hire anyone, but lots of people do.

   1710. Lassus Posted: April 09, 2013 at 08:55 PM (#4409013)
At least he's not a classless scumbag like you, who was cheering the death of an old woman with Alzheimer's yesterday.

"Good riddance" is not a cheer. Words, Joe.

Also, Brixton and Scotland and a sizable portion of the rest of Britain would like to see you come around and call them scumbags. THEY were cheering.
   1711. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 09, 2013 at 08:55 PM (#4409014)

Why not? Reform immigration and then that guy won't be an illegal.


Because you're exploiting him, encouraging others to break the immigration laws, and denying work to someone who has the legal right to work.

If you insist on breaking the immigration and labor law, you are still morally obliged to pay him the same wage you would pay a legal worker.
   1712. Morty Causa Posted: April 09, 2013 at 08:58 PM (#4409021)
1688:

I don't want to get into the whole global warming argument here. It's just too too tiresome, and it would be futile. (There's a case to be made by holocaust deniers, too, thouigh.)

I'll just say that that link I gave not only summarizes the many stuides, it also has a wealth of resources that it cites. Do yourself a favor--read it, and check out the authority. Pretend the two sides have presented a case to you, the judge. Who has the better case? Who has the most and teh better authority? If you would be honest about this, consider not only your critique of the models but what the other side says in response to your critique.
   1713. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 09, 2013 at 09:03 PM (#4409037)
Lot's of people in my neighborhood hire someone to mow the lawn and rake the leaves. Usually the same guys plow snow in the winter. We don't hire anyone, but lots of people do.
Oh, sure. I admit it never occurred to me for mowing, raking, and plowing, to look for union people. Maybe it's the areas I've lived in, but I doubt there are any. Well, the guy who plows for the town is probably union, as are the guys who plow the county and state roads, but those are gummint workers.

If you insist on breaking the immigration and labor law, you are still morally obliged to pay him the same wage you would pay a legal worker.
Yup.

I don't save all that much by hiring unskilled people to help me build (takes longer, you're paying them while you're teaching them), but teaching someone to build their first house is a blast. When you get someone enthusiastic, who can't quite believe they just nailed together their first wall (and it doesn't fall down!), there's nothing quite like it.

You know, it's weird, how many people don't want to learn things. The first time I had to tile a bathroom I hired a woman for a day on the condition she let me watch her (cue McCoy) work. She said no one does that. That they hire her, write her a check, and the last thing they want to do is know what she's doing, beyond taking a cursory interest to make sure she isn't goofing off. It's the last time too I had to pay someone to tile. One of the things I learned is that there are five key things to do/know, and those let you deal with 95% of the problems/conditions you run into.
   1714. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 09, 2013 at 09:05 PM (#4409048)
If you insist on breaking the immigration and labor law, you are still morally obliged to pay him the same wage you would pay a legal worker.

No, other people are morally obliged not to exploit him and to pay him the same wage as a legal worker.

The modern liberal's only moral obligation is to preen and show his deep concern.
   1715. McCoy Posted: April 09, 2013 at 09:07 PM (#4409057)
Because you're exploiting him, encouraging others to break the immigration laws, and denying work to someone who has the legal right to work

Better to die then be exploited? At least if he dies your conscious will be clear.

If you insist on breaking the immigration and labor law, you are still morally obliged to pay him the same wage you would pay a legal worker.

Why?
   1716. McCoy Posted: April 09, 2013 at 09:09 PM (#4409063)
I don't save all that much by hiring unskilled people to help me build

Are you paying taxes and benefits on top of the cash you are giving them?
   1717. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 09, 2013 at 09:11 PM (#4409069)
Lot's of people in my neighborhood hire someone to mow the lawn and rake the leaves. Usually the same guys plow snow in the winter. We don't hire anyone, but lots of people do.


I hire a lawn service. They show up and deal with my lawn. In the Fall and Spring they do random prep things (like I know or care about lawns). How on earth would I know if they hire illegals. 90% of the time they show up while I am at work and the other 10% I am working from home.Am I supposed to run out and card the workers? (Not that you were suggesting that I know).

As a Liberal I pay market rates, pay my taxes, and so on. I advocate higher taxes (especially financial transaction taxes, carbon taxes and income taxes for the well off), but I am not paying in extra. That doesn't make me a hypocrite, why would it? Similarly one can propose making it easier to unionize (go card check!) and still be willing to hire non-union labor.

Thinking otherwise is deluded.
   1718. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 09, 2013 at 09:12 PM (#4409073)
The modern liberal's only moral obligation is to preen and show his deep concern.


What a lovely assertion with nothing back it up. Good thing liberals never make such assertions.
   1719. Publius Publicola Posted: April 09, 2013 at 09:13 PM (#4409080)
At least he's not a classless scumbag like you, who was cheering the death of an old woman fascist with Alzheimer's yesterday.


FTFY.
   1720. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 09, 2013 at 09:14 PM (#4409083)
Oh, sure. I admit it never occurred to me for mowing, raking, and plowing, to look for union people.

Where are you getting this unionized lawn service thing? I said I hire unionized people in the building trades.

I don't have a lawn service.
   1721. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 09, 2013 at 09:19 PM (#4409098)
How on earth would I know if they hire illegals.

How about ... asking?
   1722. RollingWave Posted: April 09, 2013 at 09:22 PM (#4409107)
who cares, North Korea will launch Nukes today and we'll all be dead!
   1723. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 09, 2013 at 09:22 PM (#4409111)
Boy, Repoz is really slacking. Bob Nightengale's story about blacks in baseball has been up for a couple hours but Repoz still hasn't posted it.
   1724. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 09, 2013 at 09:24 PM (#4409117)
I don't save all that much by hiring unskilled people to help me build

Are you paying taxes and benefits on top of the cash you are giving them?
I'll 1099 someone (will I, in this case? hm. Have to think about that--if she's 17 and it's her summer job and I pay her $4800 for two months work, how do I want to handle that?) unless they ask me not to. As for taxes, what sort of taxes are you thinking of? Re benefits, I assume they're adult enough to spend a portion of what I pay them on health insurance, if they need it. I don't know anyone I'm likely to hire who doesn't have some form of health insurance, and since I pay at least 50% more than what someone with equivalent skills would be making elsewhere, I assume they can turn that into the benefits of their choosing. Am I running afoul of a law doing this? I really don't know. I've lived a lot of my life, ahem... away from government.

Keep in mind, I'm not running a business here (though that may change if I find I can build a house a year like this without overly stressing the rest of my life. Then it becomes a rather different deal). Even though the end result is a new house, it's hardly more sophisticated an operation than the guy who hires a helper to re-side his barn.

edit: "Where are you getting this unionized lawn service thing? I said I hire unionized people in the building trades."

No need to shout :). I was working from your earlier conversation with Jolly.
   1725. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 09, 2013 at 09:35 PM (#4409153)
As a Liberal I pay market rates, pay my taxes, and so on. I advocate higher taxes (especially financial transaction taxes, carbon taxes and income taxes for the well off), but I am not paying in extra. That doesn't make me a hypocrite, why would it? Similarly one can propose making it easier to unionize (go card check!) and still be willing to hire non-union labor.

Thinking otherwise is deluded.


And I think I have a moral responsibility to put into practice the beliefs I espouse.

We pay our cleaning lady $85 for ~4 hours every two weeks, and we give her a raise every year w/o her asking.

I like to buy my coats from Schott NYC, http://www.schottnyc.com/, who makes most of their stuff with union labor in NJ. The have an awesome Naval Pea Coat that I highly recommend. It's the real US Navy model.

I buy my ties from Mountain and Sackett, http://www.mountainandsackett.com/, because they're hand made in NYC.

I buy my Made in USA shoes from Allen Edmonds, Rocky, Thorogood and Red Wing. I buy my cars from Ford and Chrysler.
   1726. McCoy Posted: April 09, 2013 at 09:37 PM (#4409158)
Pretty much everything you just named buys goods and materials made in foreign countries.
   1727. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 09, 2013 at 09:40 PM (#4409165)
Pretty much everything you just named buys goods and materials made in foreign countries.

Maybe, but how is that not better than goods that are manufactured overseas, with materials from overseas? Half a loaf is better than none.

Our manufacturing has been gutted. If there was stuff with more US content, I'd buy it. There isn't.
   1728. McCoy Posted: April 09, 2013 at 09:43 PM (#4409177)
Our manufacturing has never produced more goods than it has in the last decade or so. That's some gutted business sector.

Maybe, but how is that not better than goods that are manufactured overseas, with materials from overseas? Half a loaf is better than none.

What happened to morality?

Buying cheaper goods means your money is free to be spent elsewhere like for instance at a restaurant where virtually everything you purchase was farmed in America.
   1729. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 09, 2013 at 09:45 PM (#4409180)
Our manufacturing has never produced more goods than it has in the last decade or so. That's some gutted business sector.

And it employs fewer people than it has in 100 years. We used to be by far the largest manufacturer in the world; now we've fallen behind China.

What happened to morality?

You can't be morally bound to do the impossible.
   1730. McCoy Posted: April 09, 2013 at 09:46 PM (#4409183)
And it employs fewer people than it has in 100 years.


And other sectors have picked up the slack and then some.
   1731. McCoy Posted: April 09, 2013 at 09:48 PM (#4409187)
You can't be morally bound to do the impossible.

How is it impossible? It isn't impossible it is simply inconvenient. You can have all of your clothes made by Americans with American made materials if you wanted to. You can have a car made in America by Americans using American products.
   1732. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 09, 2013 at 10:03 PM (#4409215)
How is it impossible? It isn't impossible it is simply inconvenient. You can have all of your clothes made by Americans with American made materials if you wanted to. You can have a car made in America by Americans using American products.

I'm going to custom order a car? That's not inconvenient, it's absurd. Do you know how much a one-off car would cost?

You're just engaging in absurdity to avoid the issue.

And other sectors have picked up the slack and then some.

There are plenty of unemployed to fill an extra 10 million manufacturing jobs.
   1733. SteveF Posted: April 09, 2013 at 10:07 PM (#4409225)
There are a few cars that are made in the US with most major components being manufactured in the US. It's a function of degree really, not kind -- sort of like being vegan. Some of those car companies are owned by foreign corporations (e.g. Toyota).
   1734. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 09, 2013 at 10:33 PM (#4409276)
How about ... asking?


And that will accomplish, what exactly? Because if they are breaking the law I am positive the owner guy (who I have never met, since the ex set it up in the first place) if he is hiring illegals tells everyone he asks, is totally upfront and honest about it.

Or maybe I should run out next time I see them and demand ID from the workers, or maybe politely ask if they are citizens?

Do you randomly go into restaurants and check the bus boys and others for green cards? Maybe you ask your server if everything is on the up and up? Possibly you check the website to see if they have a "We don't hire illegals" certified stamp there.

It is illegal you idiot, no one is going to admit to random dude - yup that's me breaking the law. And I am not going to run around checking papers, just like I don't write down the licence plates of people who speed or engage in citizen arrests when I see someone littering.
   1735. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 09, 2013 at 10:38 PM (#4409286)
And I think I have a moral responsibility to put into practice the beliefs I espouse.


I don't have a problem with you doing that. I am good friends with a guy who insists on buying local (as in MN) stuff and paying a premium for it (and I don't mean just local food). That does not make the rest of us bad people.

I can support higher mileage standards for cars and still own a low mileage SUV (though I don't, I am a stereotype as I own a hybrid sedan and a minivan - well the ex got the minivan, but you know what I mean).

As for your tariff plan I think the law of consequences would have many impacts. It is never going to happen, as there is zero political will for it, thought it is more likely that the Libertarian stuff others bring up so no harm no foul.
   1736. McCoy Posted: April 09, 2013 at 10:51 PM (#4409313)
I'm going to custom order a car? That's not inconvenient, it's absurd. Do you know how much a one-off car would cost?

You're just engaging in absurdity to avoid the issue.


No I'm not. You can have Americans custom build a car for you using mostly refurbished American parts and no it wouldn't cost an absurd amount. Or you can simply purchase refurbished American car.

But the truth is you are engaging in absurdity to avoid the issue. There are plenty of other goods that you can buy besides a car that can be 100% American but rather than address this you decided to focus on the costliest purchase and dismiss the whole issue based on that one thing.
   1737. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 09, 2013 at 11:28 PM (#4409365)
At least he's not a classless scumbag like you, who was cheering the death of an old woman with Alzheimer's yesterday.


"Good riddance" is not a cheer. Words, Joe.

Sure it is.

Anyway, it was "good riddance to that ####### something," or some such. So I don't really know what your point is. The actual point is that it was a disgusting comment.

Also, Brixton and Scotland and a sizable portion of the rest of Britain would like to see you come around and call them scumbags. THEY were cheering.


I'm still waiting for liberals to figure out that right and wrong is not determined by a popularity contest. Not that you have any evidence as to what percentage of people were cheering.

An old woman whose politics liberals disagreed with and who had been out of office for nearly a quarter century died. And some liberals couldn't stop from embarrassing themselves over it.
   1738. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 10, 2013 at 12:01 AM (#4409383)
At least he's not a classless scumbag like you, who was cheering the death of an old [[woman]] fascist with Alzheimer's yesterday.

FTFY.


Well, if she pissed you off, she must have been doing something right. I'd bet that at the time she entered politics she'd gladly have signed for large swathes of socialists cheering her death. I'd bet she expected it in recent years, and that she wore that thought as a badge of honor.
   1739. Richard Posted: April 10, 2013 at 12:11 AM (#4409388)
I'm still waiting for liberals to figure out that right and wrong is not determined by a popularity contest. Not that you have any evidence as to what percentage of people were cheering.

I'd hazard a guess at most people in the UK North of Cambridge who remember the 1980s (and many who don't). They are basically the two thirds of the electorate that voted against Thatcher in 3 general elections.



   1740. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: April 10, 2013 at 12:43 AM (#4409414)
The car was mainly an invention developed by non-Americans. If Snapper really wants to buy American, he should buy a good old-fashioned pogo stick, invented in Wichita, Kansas.

I'm still waiting for liberals to figure out that right and wrong is not determined by a popularity contest.

They don't always. Republicans win sometimes, after all.
   1741. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 10, 2013 at 01:04 AM (#4409429)
C'mon, McCoy. Snapper acc to 1725 is doing more than many.

Morty--I just picked up a copy of Kurzweil's How to Create a Mind. It's good reading through page 40. He claims, "Pattern recognizers are the basic unit of the human neocortex", where "each of our routine procedures is remembered as an elaborate hierarchy of nested activities. The same type of hierarchy is involved in our ability to recognize objects and situations." In short, the mind thinks new thoughts, in large part, by combining those pattern recognizers in various ways. The next chapter, he claims, contains a number of thought experiments meant to show this is true.

I'm still waiting for liberals to figure out that right and wrong is not determined by a popularity contest.


Why was I not told!?!?
   1742. SteveF Posted: April 10, 2013 at 01:17 AM (#4409449)
Bitcoins are up to ~$235 a piece. They were about $20 a little over 2 months ago, and about $80 a piece 2 weeks ago and ~$140 a piece 4 days ago.
   1743. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 10, 2013 at 03:32 AM (#4409491)
"Bitcoins"?
   1744. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 10, 2013 at 03:37 AM (#4409492)
.
   1745. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: April 10, 2013 at 07:32 AM (#4409505)
A Gallery of British Newspaper Covers on Thatcher's Death. They range from "The Woman Who Saved Britain" to "The Woman Who Tore Britain Apart", from understated visual hagiography to a mock photo of a blood-stained tombstone with REJOICE! superimposed over it. It's a reminder of just how strong an impression Thatcher made in the UK, both positive and negative.

That last one was from (naturally) the Socialist Worker, but maybe the most characteristic was the one in The Sun, which played it straight, sort of: MAGGIE DEAD IN BED AT RITZ. That one reminded me of the Philadelphia Inquirer's immortal headline after DeGaulle's death: DeGAULLE KEELS OVER AND DIES WHILE WATCHING TV
   1746. Richard Posted: April 10, 2013 at 07:45 AM (#4409511)
Steve Bell's cartoon in the Guardian yesterday is my personal favourite commentary on Thatcher's passing.
   1747. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: April 10, 2013 at 07:48 AM (#4409513)
Steve Bell's cartoon in the Guardian yesterday is my personal favourite commentary on Thatcher's passing.

So put up a link.
   1748. Greg K Posted: April 10, 2013 at 07:49 AM (#4409516)
Can't immediately find the visual evidence on google, but I recall Pierre Trudeau received somewhat similar treatment on his death. Canadians, generally divided regionally, either loved or hated that guy.

I don't think I ever saw it, but a friend of mine was particularly impressed with the Calgary Sun's classy take.
   1749. Greg K Posted: April 10, 2013 at 07:52 AM (#4409518)
Perhaps he means this one?

It's funny that about half the comments seem to have been removed by the moderator. More than a few of my British friends have said they're going to take a moratorium on the internet for a day or two as this was always going to turn into a ####-show which would only angry up the blood.
   1750. Richard Posted: April 10, 2013 at 07:56 AM (#4409519)
Yes I did, thanks Greg.

Bell had been waiting for that day for 35 years.
   1751. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 10, 2013 at 08:13 AM (#4409525)
The actual point is that it was a disgusting comment.


So I am still waiting for an explanation why is is disgusting to tell the truth about how one feels about someone on the day they die. Are we ever allowed to express contempt towards the dead? What is the "proper" waiting period, where only positive or neutral things are said? When exactly will it be OK to express contempt about her and her passing? Ever?

And remember this is a website, no one here is picketing the funeral or anything, there is no yelling at her grieving relatives. A while back certain folks made a bunch of hay about the liberals needed ice cream and feinting couches, but not so much now I guess because other folks have them and are clutching away at their pearls.

Her death is a good time to talk about her legacy which (like most people) contains good and bad things. Honesty and discussion are what makes it work not "oh no I can't say anything bad they died within the last 75.3 hours which is inside the magical conservative window of the silence.
   1752. Publius Publicola Posted: April 10, 2013 at 08:34 AM (#4409534)
I'd bet that at the time she entered politics she'd gladly have signed for large swathes of socialists cheering her death. I'd bet she expected it in recent years, and that she wore that thought as a badge of honor.


I'm sure she did. All fascists have contempt for whom they believe are their social inferiors. That's what drives their politics.

You know who Thatcher reminds me of? Miss Jean Brodie, endlessly polite as she spouts her addle-brained worship of "Generalissimo Franco" to her naive and credulous students tragically put in her charge.
   1753. Publius Publicola Posted: April 10, 2013 at 08:36 AM (#4409535)
That was a pretty groovy cartoon Richard and Greg. Thx.
   1754. Lassus Posted: April 10, 2013 at 08:40 AM (#4409539)
I want to see Ray outside protesting "Billy Elliot - the Musical" at the next production in the city.


feinting couches

I'm pretty sure this is fainting. Because it would be pretty hard to land properly on a feinting couch.
   1755. Rants Mulliniks Posted: April 10, 2013 at 08:51 AM (#4409545)
As for hiring unionized labour, its pretty hard where I live. Most elctricians and plumbers aren't even unionized here. I started a major reno/build in 2009, with myself as the architect and primary builder. I hired a house mover to jack up the old 1896 (small) farmhouse off of its stone foundation and slide it over onto the new foundation. He hired local labourers and paid them $10/hr (minimum wage was $8.something at the time).

One of the labourers mentioned to me that he had a lot of roofing experience and offered his services for when the time came to put the roof on, so later that year I called him and told him I had a few days work for him (I still had to board in the roof and trim out the eaves and facia in additional to shingling) and that I'd pay him $16/hr or twice minimum wage and 60% more than the other guy was paying him. So in return for my generous offer, he showed up 90 minutes late the first day, didn't come at all the second day, and when it came time for him to actually get up on the roof the third day, he told me he had lost his nerve and couldn't handle the height. So I sent him home, got sweet dick all done on the three vacation days I used, and ended up having to hire a roofing company to finish the roof because I couldn't find anyone to help me. The roof is 36' to the peak (its a two storey with a 12/12 roof over a walkout basement) so its not difficult to understand why some average Joe couldn't do it.

The foundation contractor used temporary foreign workers from Jamaica.

I hired a painter two years ago, and he said his rate was $20/hr. After a few weeks of him working intermittently when the weather permitted (and doing an excellent job) he complained that he was really doing us a favour, because he should be charging $35/hr and including his travel time. I told him that despite my wife and I having three degrees, including a Masters, neither one of us made close to that, and neither one of us got paid to commute, so if he wanted to charge that he could find another employer and I'd buy the vacation and do it myself.
   1756. zonk Posted: April 10, 2013 at 08:53 AM (#4409547)
I want to see Ray outside protesting "Billy Elliot - the Musical" at the next production in the city.


Is that the one about the naughty little bastard that skipped out on his moral duty to go work in the mines like a good little urchin should?
   1757. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 10, 2013 at 09:06 AM (#4409557)
There is also a selfish reason to worry if a contractor is using illegal workers. If they get hurt at your house, and he doesn't have them covered under workers' comp, they can sue you.
   1758. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 10, 2013 at 09:12 AM (#4409561)
So I am still waiting for an explanation why is is disgusting to tell the truth about how one feels about someone on the day they die.

It's not necessarily disgusting, but it is solipsistic and theatrical -- which is why the modern liberal is so quick to engage in it.(*)

It unfolded rather comically here. First, she was dubbed "evil" as a way of showing the world how deeply concerned the polemicist was. Then, when insufficient notice of that was taken and it was brushed aside as the adolescent act that it was, the ante was upped to "fascist."

What's next -- holding his breath and turning blue?

(*) Because what's most important on a day an influential soul perished from the Earth isn't that passing -- it's the modern liberal's unabiding deep concern. It's most critical that that be the center of attention.
   1759. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 10, 2013 at 09:21 AM (#4409565)
it's the modern liberal's unabiding deep concern. It's most critical that that be the center of attention.

That's because they use deep concern to provide cover, and salve their consciences for not actually doing anything about the problems they profess to care about.

I support unions, so it's OK that I buy whatever product is cheaper, regardless of who made it. I support immigration reform, so it's OK that my nanny and gardener are illegal. I support giving more of other peoples' money to the poor, so it's OK that I don't actually give much to charity myself.

Or the classic Warren Buffett and Bill Gates doozy, I support higher income and estate taxes, but I've structured all my income as capital gains, and I'v shielded all my assets in a charitable trust (which like most charitable trusts will probably never give away any of its principal).
   1760. Morty Causa Posted: April 10, 2013 at 09:28 AM (#4409571)
   1761. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 10, 2013 at 09:30 AM (#4409576)
The market for your select pea coats has just gone through the roof, snapper

Knowing Penney's, probably cheap Chinese knock-offs ;-)
   1762. McCoy Posted: April 10, 2013 at 09:48 AM (#4409587)
C'mon, McCoy. Snapper acc to 1725 is doing more than many.

And Jefferson slept with his slaves. So what? Snapper brought up morality, he brought up tariffs, he brought up the need to bring jobs to America, he brought up the view that it would just be a little bit more expensive to buy American.
   1763. The Good Face Posted: April 10, 2013 at 10:06 AM (#4409600)
So I am still waiting for an explanation why is is disgusting to tell the truth about how one feels about someone on the day they die. Are we ever allowed to express contempt towards the dead? What is the "proper" waiting period, where only positive or neutral things are said? When exactly will it be OK to express contempt about her and her passing? Ever?

And remember this is a website, no one here is picketing the funeral or anything, there is no yelling at her grieving relatives. A while back certain folks made a bunch of hay about the liberals needed ice cream and feinting couches, but not so much now I guess because other folks have them and are clutching away at their pearls.

Her death is a good time to talk about her legacy which (like most people) contains good and bad things. Honesty and discussion are what makes it work not "oh no I can't say anything bad they died within the last 75.3 hours which is inside the magical conservative window of the silence.


Indeed. Rest assured that should you predecease me, I'll be celebrating up a storm here!
   1764. Morty Causa Posted: April 10, 2013 at 10:13 AM (#4409606)
Look, obviously public figures are different from regular people, whether that's Reagan, Thatcher, LBJ, Nixon, or Clinton. Or Phillip Roth, Marlon Brando, and John Lennon. The response will not be generic and merely perfunctorily ritualistic.
   1765. BDC Posted: April 10, 2013 at 10:15 AM (#4409607)
I support unions, so it's OK that I buy whatever product is cheaper, regardless of who made it

I dunno. I often buy cheap products, but then I don't have much money, in part because I don't belong to a union. The cycle reinforces itself.

I did just pay ~2.5x the supermarket price for an order of pastured chicken that I'm fixing to pick up tomorrow. I support humane and sustainable local farming, so for once I'm not buying whatever's cheaper. I'll get going on the rest of the world's problems tomorrow :)
   1766. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: April 10, 2013 at 10:19 AM (#4409611)
Whenever I read about bitcoins, I feel incredibly old.

I rarely agree with Joe K., but he said something a few weeks ago that I think bears discussion. (I don't have a great way of framing it or much to add but the discussion is kind of stale right now.)
He made a crack about how liberals want to expand social services and immigration - both of which sound good to me in isolation - and how there are underdiscussed, unintended consequences to doing both. I think this is an issue with neoliberal thought in general - support of programs that work in the abstract but might not when put into practice or in conjunction with each other (you can extend this to Classical v. Keynesian economics as well, though those have iterated based their initial positions).
That doesn't mean that the liberals are wrong (I am one, after all) or that this issue doesn't affect conservative positions as well (though those tend to be simpler and are less impacted here) but... there you go.
   1767. The Good Face Posted: April 10, 2013 at 10:19 AM (#4409612)
Look, obviously public figures are different from regular people,


Why? What difference does that make with respect to our feelings about the dead? If anything, it should be more acceptable to speak ill of non-public figures, since they're less likely to have a large number of people with strong feelings about them, for good or for ill.

If it's OK for Kevin to celebrate when Thatcher died, it should be OK for me to celebrate when BM dies.
   1768. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: April 10, 2013 at 10:22 AM (#4409614)
An old woman whose politics liberals disagreed with and who had been out of office for nearly a quarter century died. And some liberals couldn't stop from embarrassing themselves over it.


It's really cute how you pretend that only liberals do this, not conservatives, how only liberals are fooled by conmen like Edwards, never conservatives

You must know the most unrepresentative sample of conservatives on God's green earth
   1769. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: April 10, 2013 at 10:27 AM (#4409620)
So I am still waiting for an explanation why is is disgusting to tell the truth about how one feels about someone on the day they die.


Because that opinion is 180 degrees off from Ray's opinion, that's why.

Ray's getting really cranky, maybe he should step back a bit, take a deep breath, he starting to come off/argue a bit like JoeK.

   1770. McCoy Posted: April 10, 2013 at 10:27 AM (#4409621)
I buy my Made in USA shoes from Allen Edmonds, Rocky, Thorogood and Red Wing

Allen Edmonds has a plant in the Dominican Republic that makes their "cheap" shoes.

Red Wing has a plant in China that makes virtually all of their non-brand shoes and a bunch of their Red Wing boots as well.

Thorogood appears to be only made in America

Rocky has plants in the Dominican Republic, China, and Puerto Rico. In fact none of their shoes are made in the 50 states and the only reason they have a plant in Puerto Rico is because in order to sell shoes to the government they have to be made in the USA and Puerto Rico qualifies as USA.


   1771. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: April 10, 2013 at 10:30 AM (#4409622)
An old woman whose politics liberals disagreed with and who had been out of office for nearly a quarter century died. And some liberals couldn't stop from embarrassing themselves over it.

It's good you weren't around in 1963 and 1968 to witness some of the reactions to the deaths of JFK and Martin Luther King, many of which I heard first hand up close. You might have had to swallow an extra dose of amnesia pills in order to maintain yourself in your comfort zone.
   1772. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 10, 2013 at 10:30 AM (#4409623)
And Jefferson slept with his slaves. So what? Snapper brought up morality, he brought up tariffs, he brought up the need to bring jobs to America, he brought up the view that it would just be a little bit more expensive to buy American.

If a lot of people buy American, and/or are given incentives to do so (i.e. tariffs) it would only be a little more expensive.

The best estimate I've seen is that assembling an iPhone in the U.S. would add $30 to its cost, and they sell for well over $500. If it was fully absorbed by Apple, it would cut their profit per phone by 13%, but of course they would pass some of that on to consumers.

But, if one person wants to buy American it is often downright impossible or prohibitively expensive. I can't afford to have all my electronic goods custom made. A single TV would probably cost $1M if you had to order each part as a one-off custom job.
   1773. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 10, 2013 at 10:31 AM (#4409624)
Allen Edmonds has a plant in the Dominican Republic that makes their "cheap" shoes.

Red Wing has a plant in China that makes virtually all of their non-brand shoes and a bunch of their Red Wing boots as well.

Thorogood appears to be only made in America

Rocky has plants in the Dominican Republic, China, and Puerto Rico. In fact none of their shoes are made in the 50 states and the only reason they have a plant in Puerto Rico is because in order to sell shoes to the government they have to be made in the USA and Puerto Rico qualifies as USA.


And I don't but the ones not made in USA. They list which are which on their websites.
   1774. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: April 10, 2013 at 10:34 AM (#4409628)
If it's OK for Kevin to celebrate when Thatcher died, it should be OK for me to celebrate when BM dies.


and if you pass before Andy I suppose it's ok if he does the Charleston over your grave?


Personally I see little point in celebrating the passing of a non-public figure, unless that person did something extremely nasty to you or someone close to you, public figures, especially political/economic leaders are fair game- because they should be fair game, alive or dead.

If Ahmadinejad dies in a car accident next year, I will have no problem if some of my fellow Americans take the opportunity to say, "good riddance to that #######"

Over, here if Al Franken kicks the bucket I know that some people will be gleeful, should they stifle themselves when liberals and hollywood types start trying to quasi deify him?

   1775. Random Transaction Generator Posted: April 10, 2013 at 10:40 AM (#4409640)
I assume the conservative folks will be just as solemn and reverent when Fidel Castro finally dies.
No way they would cheer or say "good riddance". Gosh, no.
   1776. The Good Face Posted: April 10, 2013 at 10:42 AM (#4409644)
and if you pass before Andy I suppose it's ok if he does the Charleston over your grave?


Of course, I'll be dead; what will I care? Although I'm pretty confident the parties will be turned around there.

Over, here if Al Franken kicks the bucket I know that some people will be gleeful, should they stifle themselves when liberals and hollywood types start trying to quasi deify him?


I sure won't! I'll chortle with pleasure, and no doubt several of the puritan lefty pinchnoses here be shocked and appalled (APPALLED!), and express their indignition in the most self-aggrandizing tones possible. Which will, of course, merely double my pleasure.
   1777. BDC Posted: April 10, 2013 at 10:43 AM (#4409646)
A single TV would probably cost $1M if you had to order each part as a one-off custom job

And there would still be nothing on when you wanted to watch but Celebrity Apprentice.
   1778. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 10, 2013 at 10:47 AM (#4409652)
and if you pass before Andy I suppose it's ok if he does the Charleston over your grave?

Andy got there already -- remember the death wish and the suspension?

I assume the conservative folks will be just as solemn and reverent when Fidel Castro finally dies. No way they would cheer or say "good riddance". Gosh, no.

Right, because the difference between Margaret Thatcher and Fidel Castro is merely one of degree.

And modern liberals wonder why rational people find them so clueless.

   1779. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: April 10, 2013 at 10:50 AM (#4409658)
If it's OK for Kevin to celebrate when Thatcher died, it should be OK for me to celebrate when BM dies.


and if you pass before Andy I suppose it's ok if he does the Charleston over your grave?

Nah, I'd just buy a few cases of beer for some uninsured cancer patients and then drive them up to Hartsdale to pay their respects at his gravesite.

Personally I see little point in celebrating the passing of a non-public figure, unless that person did something extremely nasty to you or someone close to you, public figures, especially political/economic leaders are fair game- because they should be fair game, alive or dead.

If Ahmadinejad dies in a car accident next year, I will have no problem if some of my fellow Americans take the opportunity to say, "good riddance to that #######"


It's probably a stupid distinction, but I think there's something to be said for holding off with your comments on public figures this side of Hitler or Stalin, at least until the body's six feet under. And as for commenting on the death of non-public figures, I'd restrict those comments to private conversations.
   1780. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: April 10, 2013 at 10:50 AM (#4409659)
I rarely agree with Joe K., but he said something a few weeks ago that I think bears discussion.


Oh he'll say things that can be linked into something that bears discussion, the problem is you can't have that discussion with JoeK, because he doesn't argue in good faith and facts and truth are very fluid concepts to him.

There are unintended consequences to virtually everything.

let's say you wanted to double legal immigration rates and at the same time "expand social services"
which social services? what social services, are non-citizen immigrants going to be eligible?

If an immigrant works, and has taxes withheld, including $ for unemployment "insurance"- and he gets laid off, should he or should he not be able to collect unemployment, doe she waive any right to collect unemployment as part of the "deal" that allows him to stay here legally?

What about children born here to immigrant parents, are they eligible?

What it comes down to is I think the linkage being asserted by JoeK is false- because he's operating from 2 premises:

1: Expanding social services is bad
2: Immigration is bad

Even better he sees a feedback, immigrants tend to be the types of people who favor expanding social services, so more immigrants (bad in and of itself) eventually leads to expanded social services (also bad in and of itself)... which attracts more immigrants, and eventually we're a nation of brown skinned moochers.

The anti-immigrants nativists don't just want to restrict immigration most sincerely want to see mass deportations of those already here (hint not gonna happen unless and until we become a fascist police state)
They want to ban children of illegals from public services from public schools, from citizenship- if you ask them why you'd want to deliberately create a mass illiterate underclass, the response is either "tough" or it won't happen if we deport them all or make it so miserable they leave...

The claim that you can't have immigration if you offer social services (or vice versa) is made by people who want neither as a fallback position.
   1781. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: April 10, 2013 at 10:54 AM (#4409663)
I sure won't! I'll chortle with pleasure, and no doubt several of the puritan lefty pinchnoses here be shocked and appalled (APPALLED!), and express their indignition in the most self-aggrandizing tones possible. Which will, of course, merely double my pleasure.


And unless he's a hypocrite I suppose Ray will be forced to join those liberals in their shocked indignation at your breach of decorum.
   1782. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 10, 2013 at 10:55 AM (#4409665)
2: Immigration is bad

I think you're missing an "Illegal" before immigration.

Literally no one here is saying legal immigration is bad. I'd be perfectly fine with the same total rate of immigration (or even higher) if it was 95% legal (100% is never obtainable). It would be especially good if we selected for skilled labor, rather than extended family members, and whoever is willing to cross a desert with a drug dealer.
   1783. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: April 10, 2013 at 10:55 AM (#4409666)

If a lot of people buy American, and/or are given incentives to do so (i.e. tariffs) it would only be a little more expensive.

The American economy is not nearly big or diverse enough to replace everything we import.

The best estimate I've seen is that assembling an iPhone in the U.S. would add $30 to its cost, and they sell for well over $500.


This is what I don't understand. Let's say that iPhones were assembled in the United States. So a bunch of people that would otherwise work in a Starbucks or give yoga lessons or landscape or make sandwiches would now instead be assembling iPhones. Why would that be an improvement?
   1784. Morty Causa Posted: April 10, 2013 at 10:56 AM (#4409667)
Why? What difference does that make with respect to our feelings about the dead? If anything, it should be more acceptable to speak ill of non-public figures, since they're less likely to have a large number of people with strong feelings about them, for good or for ill.

If it's OK for Kevin to celebrate when Thatcher died, it should be OK for me to celebrate when BM dies.


Not to push this too much, because it is to some degree a matter of degree. But, first, we should note the reality of precedent: we do in fact react differently. There's an actual history. Public figures have a dimension that affects us and the larger community to an extent that we don't see regular people as possessing. They redound to our sense of a shared public life. We don't feel an interest in expressing an opinion about the butcher, bakery, etc., because, meh, what does it matter? Although this is a matter of degree, those people are both more personal and more inconsequential. Some feel an interest in lambasting Thatcher or Nixon or LBJ or MLK because what they are seen as representing lives on and could have an effect on you. It's serious as to our public life--that is not how your Aunt Tillie is viewed.
   1785. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 10, 2013 at 11:02 AM (#4409677)
This is what I don't understand. Let's say that iPhones were assembled in the United States. So a bunch of people that would otherwise work in a Starbucks or give yoga lessons or landscape or make sandwiches would now instead be assembling iPhones. Why would that be an improvement?

Have you not noticed we have a massive unemployment/discouraged worker problem in the US?

Also, having the assembly here would cause a bunch of supporting industries to cluster here, that would also produce jobs, and probably more capital intensive/higher wage ones. Look at all the parts suppliers feeding the Big3.

The loss of assembly jobs to China hasn't stopped their. Lots of the machine tools, and material suppliers have followed their customers.
   1786. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 10, 2013 at 11:06 AM (#4409681)
Some feel an interest in lambasting Thatcher or Nixon or LBJ or MLK because what they are seen as representing lives on and could have an effect on you. It's serious as to our public life--that is not how your Aunt Tillie is viewed.

Sure, and saying "Wow, LBJ was a horrible President. He Effed up Vietnam and the Great Society was a disaster" is totally inbounds, basically anywhere except his eulogy.

But, saying "LBJ was a scumbag. I'm glad he's dead, and hope he rots in hell", is all together different in kind, and almost always inappropriate, especially right after the death.
   1787. Random Transaction Generator Posted: April 10, 2013 at 11:13 AM (#4409695)
I assume the conservative folks will be just as solemn and reverent when Fidel Castro finally dies. No way they would cheer or say "good riddance". Gosh, no.

Right, because the difference between Margaret Thatcher and Fidel Castro is merely one of degree.


It is for some.

And modern liberals wonder why rational people find them so clueless.


Of course, I wouldn't expect you to understand the viewpoints of other people. That would imply you have some sort of empathy or consciousness of people in a different situation than yourself.

And modern conservatives wonder why rational people find them so out of touch with society.
   1788. The Good Face Posted: April 10, 2013 at 11:13 AM (#4409696)
And unless he's a hypocrite I suppose Ray will be forced to join those liberals in their shocked indignation at your breach of decorum.


Ray is one of the most intellectually consistent posters here, so it wouldn't surprise me at all.

Some feel an interest in lambasting Thatcher or Nixon or LBJ or MLK because it could have an effect on you. It's serious as to our public life--that is not how your Aunt Tillie is viewed.


BM plays a larger role in my daily life than senile old Fidel Castro, or nursing home Maggie Thatcher. I mean, I may wind up reading 10+ of his posts a week. Awful, right? So when he goes, it's party time!
   1789. Morty Causa Posted: April 10, 2013 at 11:14 AM (#4409698)
   1790. Morty Causa Posted: April 10, 2013 at 11:20 AM (#4409700)
Sure, and saying "Wow, LBJ was a horrible President. He Effed up Vietnam and the Great Society was a disaster" is totally inbounds, basically anywhere except his eulogy.

But, saying "LBJ was a scumbag. I'm glad he's dead, and hope he rots in hell", is all together different in kind, and almost always inappropriate, especially right after the death.


<shrug> First, you're tilting at windmills. Second, that sort of response you deplore is informative. Third, thus it is, thus it always has been. Take it for what you will. If you don't take it for much, one way or the other, I'd be inclined to go along. This kind of falls along the line of what Doerr or Dom DiMaggio supposedly told Ted Williams once: Fenway Park can be filled to capacity and everyone can be cheering wildly for you but two fans who are booing you. And you'll only hear the boos.
   1791. Random Transaction Generator Posted: April 10, 2013 at 11:20 AM (#4409701)
From #1789's link:

It's said Thatcher stood up for freedom and democracy in the world. She didn't in South Africa, where she opposed sanctions against apartheid and called Nelson Mandela a 'terrorist'. She didn't in Chile, where she supported the murderer and torturer Augusto Pinochet. She didn't in Cambodia, where she gave support to the Khmer Rouge, of all people.


Good work, Iron Lady of Conservatism!
   1792. Greg K Posted: April 10, 2013 at 11:21 AM (#4409703)
Sure, and saying "Wow, LBJ was a horrible President. He Effed up Vietnam and the Great Society was a disaster" is totally inbounds, basically anywhere except his eulogy.

Unless you're John Cleese.

"Good Riddance, you free-loading bastard" is really something that more eulogies should include.
   1793. Morty Causa Posted: April 10, 2013 at 11:22 AM (#4409705)
BM plays a larger role in my daily life than senile old Fidel Castro, or nursing home Maggie Thatcher. I mean, I may wind up reading 10+ of his posts a week. Awful, right? So when he goes, it's party time!


Have at it! Remember, though, what Kurt Vonnegut said: you are what you pretend to be, so be careful of who you pretend to be. (Feel free to "back at you" when it fits.)
   1794. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 10, 2013 at 11:31 AM (#4409710)
It is for some.

We know -- the clueless and delusional. It's nothing to be proud of.

Of course, I wouldn't expect you to understand the viewpoints of other people. That would imply you have some sort of empathy or consciousness of people in a different situation than yourself.

And modern conservatives wonder why rational people find them so out of touch with society.


It isn't rational to see the differences between Castro and Thatcher as merely a matter of degree.

Nor is it rational to view Thatcher as "evil" or "fascist."
   1795. Morty Causa Posted: April 10, 2013 at 11:36 AM (#4409720)
As a lawyer, you should know that "rational" isn't much of a threshold to meet.
   1796. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 10, 2013 at 11:37 AM (#4409722)
If it's OK for Kevin to celebrate when Thatcher died, it should be OK for me to celebrate when BM dies.


I for one am more than OK with folks doing whatever after I die (heck comment before I die also). So long as you don't then pretend to never personally attack anyone after doing it, I say go for it (within the TOS of course).

But then I have told my family they could do whatever they wanted (legally) with my body after I am done with it. I'll be dead, what do I care? Now I expect folks to not be total jerks to any in grief over my passing, but otherwise go to town.

BM plays a larger role in my daily life than senile old Fidel Castro, or nursing home Maggie Thatcher.


<Blush>

As a more serious aside I personally don't glory in anyone's death. I am against the death penalty and am a personal pacifist. I didn't cheer when Osama Bin Laden died, or anyone else that I can think of in recent history. I think people dying is one of the most natural things possible (obviously) and after a long and full life should not be feared. Everyone dies, but that does not mean I glory in itand certainly don't want to cause it.

I am in an extreme minority in these opinions, and that is OK. Other folks (on both/all sides) can and should honestly express themselves. I don't find honesty disgusting, shallow, or any of the other epithets used upthread. After seeing the Life of Pi, with my best friend, my reaction to a pivotal question asked "Which story do you prefer" was a very atypical "The Truth" (which made my friend laugh when we discussed the movie afterwards), but hey viva la differance.
   1797. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: April 10, 2013 at 11:41 AM (#4409726)

Have you not noticed we have a massive unemployment/discouraged worker problem in the US?


Yes, but that's a failure of demand, not that we've run out of things to do. We also had high unemployment in the 70s, when a much larger proportion of the population was engaged in assembling things, and low unemployment in the 90s, when there were fewer manufacturing workers than in the 70s.

The rate of unemployment is simply not related to the 'number of jobs' as if there are a fixed number of chairs that everyone is looking to sit in. Rather the number of jobs rises and falls with population and overall demand.

Also, having the assembly here would cause a bunch of supporting industries to cluster here, that would also produce jobs, and probably more capital intensive/higher wage ones. Look at all the parts suppliers feeding the Big3.


You seem to be saying that manufacturing jobs will generate higher wages than jobs in the service industry or commodities. That's simply not the case, as a blanket statement. One of the richest areas in the United States is Silicon valley, and of course all of those jobs are service jobs as we classify them. All industrialized nations, even Germany and Japan, have 75% or more of their population engaged in service jobs, and those are also the richest nations. China only has 35% of its population providing services. It's worth noting that as China is getting wealthier, more and more workers are shifting out of manufacturing into service jobs.

In the end, if you want higher wages, it's far easier and more efficient to simply raise the minimum wage. Increasing demand for labor would also do the trick, although tariffs are unlikely to have any effect on the unemployment rate (far more likely that it would go up under a high-tariff regime than go down).


   1798. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 10, 2013 at 11:42 AM (#4409727)
As a more serious aside I personally don't glory in anyone's death. I am against the death penalty and am a personal pacifist. I didn't cheer when Osama Bin Laden died, or anyone else that I can think of in recent history. I think people dying is one of the most natural things possible (obviously) and after a long and full life should not be feared. Everyone dies, but that does not mean I glory in itand certainly don't want to cause it.

I agree with all of this, and I am pro-death penalty, and not a pacifist. In medieval/pre-modern Europe, in some places they would ask all the people to pray for the soul of a prisoner to be executed on the day he was to die. That's sort of my attitude towards people I consider bad, but are short of the Hitler/Pol Pot/Stalin class evil doers.

   1799. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 10, 2013 at 11:43 AM (#4409730)
The rate of unemployment is simply not related to the 'number of jobs' as if there are a fixed number of chairs that everyone is looking to sit in. Rather the number of jobs rises and falls with population and overall demand.


In the end, if you want higher wages, it's far easier and more efficient to simply raise the minimum wage.


I am busy so I can't jump into the economic discussion as I would like (sure, now that I am busy we talk about this stuff, when I had time it was all IQ this, gun control that, and so on ... sigh), but I wanted to quote 1797 and agree.
   1800. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: April 10, 2013 at 11:46 AM (#4409733)
It isn't rational to see the differences between Castro and Thatcher as merely a matter of degree.

Well, duh, considering only one of them could be peaceably voted out of office.

Nor is it rational to view Thatcher as "evil" or "fascist."

In the commonly used senses of those words, that's about on the same level as calling Obama a "socialist" or a "collectivist", or saying that he "hates America". The use of language like that says a lot more about the people using those words than it does about the people they're using them against.

That said, it's certainly fair game to point out the glaring difference in the way that Thatcher reacted to Pinochet and Mandela. The idea that she represented anything other than one more example of selective "freedom loving" is no less laughable than the examples of leftists who rant about Israel while finding little but virtue in Hugo Chavez. Thatcher had many of the necessary qualities that made her a very effective leader of her party, but let's not take it into Pride of the Yankees territory.
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