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Sunday, March 31, 2013

OTP: April 2013: Daily Caller: Baseball and the GOP: To rebrand the party, think like a sports fan

This week’s GOP autopsy report, commissioned by RNC Chairman Reince Priebus, is a great start in the much-needed task of rebranding the Republican Party. As the chairman acknowledged, “the way we communicate our principles isn’t resonating widely enough” and “we have to be more inclusive.” The report contains 219 recommendations to “connect people to our principles.” To achieve that goal, the party will need a strategic vision of how voters think about politics, which is something that the report lacks. For that, the GOP can learn a lot from another American passion: baseball.

This year, about 75 million Americans will go to the baseball stadium to watch a ballgame, about the same number as those who will vote in next year’s election. We rarely think about why someone becomes a baseball fan, or why they root for a certain team. Nor do we usually think about why someone chooses to vote for a certain political party. But it’s actually a very useful exercise.

When it comes to baseball, fan loyalty has almost nothing to do with the brain, and almost everything to do with the heart. In all of history, there’s never been a baseball fan who rooted for his team because it had the lowest ticket prices, or because it had the most taxpayer-friendly stadium deal, or because its players did the most community service. For the vast majority of Americans, rooting for a baseball team — not to mention, voting for a political party — isn’t really a rational choice; it’s more of a statement of personal identity — a statement telling the world, “This is who I am.” And for most people, defining “who I am” starts with family and community, before branching out into areas like race, age, gender, and class.

Family is pretty straightforward. If your mom and dad are Yankee fans, you’re almost certainly a Yankee fan. The same is true in politics. If your mom and dad are Republicans, you’re almost certainly a Republican.

Community is also pretty straightforward. If you grew up in, say, Philadelphia, chances are pretty great you’re a Phillies fan. Likewise, someone who grew up in Republican territory like, say, suburban Dallas or rural Indiana is much more likely to become a Republican than a nearly identical person from Seattle or Santa Fe.

Cities with more than one baseball team, like New York or Chicago, show revealing breakdowns by race and gender. The racial split in Chicago between Cubs fans on the North Side and White Sox fans on the South Side is well-documented. In New York, there’s an intriguing gender gap between Mets and Yankee fans, with women gravitating a lot more to the Yanks. While there’s a few theories out there trying to explain that, one obvious answer leaps out: Yankees heartthrob Derek Jeter.

In sports, as in politics, people’s convictions can’t be conveniently reduced to who their parents are or what they look like. But those things are an important foundation, upon which more rational sentiments come into being. Once you’re attached to your team on an emotional level — seeing them as a personal reflection of who you are and what you care about most — a rational exterior comes into being through phrases like “the Red Sox are the best team because they have the most heart” or “the Republicans are the best party because they know how to create jobs.”

Tripon Posted: March 31, 2013 at 10:52 AM | 6544 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

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   2801. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: April 16, 2013 at 06:41 PM (#4416124)
I haven't had an opportunity to look upthread: Did anyone point out that Mississippi Republican Senator Roger Wicker was sent an envelope containing the ricin toxin?

I think Politico broke the story.

   2802. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: April 16, 2013 at 06:42 PM (#4416125)
   2803. Gonfalon B. Posted: April 16, 2013 at 06:46 PM (#4416128)
I'd have to go back and review those cases, but from the wiki entries there seemed to be a lot more than media calling him "a suspect."

Richard Jewell was investigated by the FBI, which made no official statement about his status for almost three months (as opposed to a three hour wait yesterday). But the Post still had to pay Jewell, because they went out too far beyond the facts. They didn't go as far as that in Boston (stretching from investigation to suspect, rather than from investigation to guilty), but they still went beyond any other news agency, and that's why they're being criticized. And presumably it's why they've since reined in their coverage.

In addition to those outlets listed on the Wikipedia page, Jewell sued and collected from ABC News. There may have been more.

This insistence from some lefties that a person who was not only questioned but also had his apartment searched didn't qualify as a "suspect" is patently absurd.

You should inform the absurd lefties on the New York Post, who have taken a step back from their gutsy "a duck is a duck" reporting. Their choice of words has retreated to the precise semantic spot where the rest of the journalistic profession arrived at yesterday.

When you pretend that there's not a breath of difference between someone being investigated, and someone being designated as the focal target of that investigation, with all of the legalities that entails, you're the ones playing games with words.

But the reassuring thing is that the New York Post has made the editorial decision to accept police technical doublespeak at face value when it's something really important.
   2804. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 16, 2013 at 06:53 PM (#4416133)
When you pretend that there's not a breath of difference between someone being investigated, and someone being designated as the focal point of a crime, you're the ones playing games with words.

I never pretended any such thing. Calling someone "a suspect" is not remotely the same thing as "someone being designated as the focal point of a crime" (emphasis added).

If the police search your apartment because it's your apartment, you are or were a suspect.
   2805. tfbg9 Posted: April 16, 2013 at 07:19 PM (#4416149)
Jason Blair-NY Times
Steven Glass-New Republic
Dan Rather-CBS News
Exploding Trucks rigged to Explode on Dateline
Bogus story of 9 YO Smack Addict wins Pulitzer for Wapo
Operation Tailwind story on CNN
Photoshopped Palestinian pix from Reuters
Walter Duranty Pulitzer not returned by NY Times
NBC edits audio to make Zimmerman sound racist
NY Times puts clearly misleading GHW Bush supermarket scanner story on P1

...I could go on and on. There's 10 quick ones, OTTOMH
   2806. Gonfalon B. Posted: April 16, 2013 at 07:19 PM (#4416151)
If the Post got it right and knows it, why have they stopped calling him a suspect?
   2807. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: April 16, 2013 at 07:23 PM (#4416153)

#2805 - 10 quick whats?
   2808. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: April 16, 2013 at 07:27 PM (#4416156)
#2805 - 10 quick whats?
The first six listed OTTOMHs, people were fired for their malfeasance.

Lemme know when heads roll at the Post.
   2809. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 16, 2013 at 07:28 PM (#4416158)
If the Post got it right and knows it, why have they stopped calling him a suspect?

Probably because he's not a suspect anymore.

***
Lemme know when heads roll at the Post.

Heads roll for what?
   2810. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 16, 2013 at 07:35 PM (#4416167)
If the Post got it right and knows it, why have they stopped calling him a suspect?

Certainly possible that their source changed his tune or a later source gave better info. Don't underestimate how often sources seek to ingratiate themselves with the media by passing on info that might be little more than rumor or even making stuff up.
   2811. Gonfalon B. Posted: April 16, 2013 at 07:44 PM (#4416173)
Probably because he's not a suspect anymore.

At this hour he's still under guard, he's still being questioned, and he's still cooperating. What's the matter, you don't know a suspect when you see one? What are you, a police commissioner or something?

Don't underestimate how often sources seek to ingratiate themselves with the media by passing on info that might be little more than rumor or even making stuff up.

Well, yeah. I hear there are even professionals who are paid a weekly salary to properly estimate the reliability of sources.
   2812. Pingu Posted: April 16, 2013 at 07:46 PM (#4416179)
   2813. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 16, 2013 at 07:52 PM (#4416189)
Did anyone point out that Mississippi Republican Senator Roger Wicker was sent an envelope containing the ricin toxin?

I think Politico broke the story.


It's on CNN now. I'm supposed to go with my daughter and her 5th grade class to DC in a couple of weeks. If this keeps up, we're not going anywhere.
   2814. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 16, 2013 at 07:53 PM (#4416193)
They track him wearing the disguise-- at some point he got in a vehicle, or on public transportation, or something. I'm not saying it's an iron-clad assurance they'll nail him with two days, but trying to pull something like this off without getting caught, in 2013, in a big area, would take more than just a fake beard and baseball cap.

I certainly hope you're right.

If they were there ahead of time, they would have been found in sweeps of the area. They were almost certainly placed after the crowds were already in the area, not before the race.
At a minimum, they couldn't have been in place before the race infrastructure was set up, since the garbage cans wouldn't have been there for him to put the bombs into. And if he did it too early, race workers would've taken them out with the trash (an event like that generates a LOT of trash), and he would've just blown up some garbage trucks.

This kind of thing will narrow it down. They probably had to be in some kind of container, and tracking the history of that container, when it had been previously emptied, when the bomb would have been planted, starts to narrow things down. Then you have the 'signature' of the explosive, which you hope is distinctive enough to give you a lead.

I think the emphasis on eyewitnesses or cameras is a bit optimistic. Most of these bastards don't get caught that way.
   2815. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: April 16, 2013 at 08:06 PM (#4416202)
It's on CNN now. I'm supposed to go with my daughter and her 5th grade class to DC in a couple of weeks. If this keeps up, we're not going anywhere.

Feel free to shoot me a note if you do make the trip. I know you'll have your hands full but I am happy to meet for coffee or a drink.
   2816. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 16, 2013 at 08:07 PM (#4416203)
At this hour he's still under guard, he's still being questioned, and he's still cooperating. What's the matter, you don't know a suspect when you see one? What are you, a police commissioner or something?

The Los Angeles Times says the guy is "no longer under suspicion."

I look forward to the lefties here either excoriating the Los Angeles Times for describing this non-suspect suspect as having been "under suspicion" or attempting to explain how a person can be "under suspicion" without being a suspect. Should be fun.
   2817. Publius Publicola Posted: April 16, 2013 at 08:10 PM (#4416208)
It's on CNN now. I'm supposed to go with my daughter and her 5th grade class to DC in a couple of weeks. If this keeps up, we're not going anywhere.


Oh come on. Let's not overreact.
   2818. Tripon Posted: April 16, 2013 at 08:11 PM (#4416210)

I look forward to the lefties here either excoriating the Los Angeles Times for describing this non-suspect suspect as having been "under suspicion" or attempting to explain how a person can be "under suspicion" without being a suspect. Should be fun.


The L.A. Times ###### up. Am I not a liberal(or whatever Joe considers to be a liberal) anymore?
   2819. Publius Publicola Posted: April 16, 2013 at 08:14 PM (#4416212)
From the LATimes article:

At the Ocean Shores Towers on the beachfront in the blue-collar Mafia-controlled town of Revere, near Boston, a manager said the three students who lived in the apartment were among dozens of Saudi students who have been arriving since the Arab Spring, their education financed by the Saudi government.


FTFT
   2820. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 16, 2013 at 08:16 PM (#4416215)
The L.A. Times ###### up. Am I not a liberal(or whatever Joe considers to be a liberal) anymore?

Yet another guy who'd rather embarrass himself than acknowledge the obvious.

According to a multitude of BBTF lefties, the authorities apparently searched this guy's apartment out of sheer boredom. Amazing.
   2821. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: April 16, 2013 at 08:19 PM (#4416217)
Joe: "I look forward to the lefties here either excoriating the Los Angeles Times..."

Tripon: "The L.A. Times ###### up."

Joe: "Yet another guy who'd rather embarrass himself than acknowledge the obvious."

Me: "WTF?"
   2822. Tripon Posted: April 16, 2013 at 08:20 PM (#4416218)

Yet another guy who'd rather embarrass himself than acknowledge the obvious.

According to a multitude of BBTF lefties, the authorities apparently searched this guy's apartment out of sheer boredom. Amazing.


What is the obvious? Apparently you have to spell it out.
   2823. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 16, 2013 at 08:21 PM (#4416221)
Oh come on. Let's not overreact.


It's not that I'm afraid of an attack. It's that I prefer not to spend big bucks to wait in line for 2 hours going through metal detectors and bomb sniffing dogs to get into the mint or the Smithsonian.
   2824. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: April 16, 2013 at 08:26 PM (#4416228)
It's not that I'm afraid of an attack. It's that I prefer not to spend big bucks to wait in line for 2 hours going through metal detectors and bomb sniffing dogs to get into the mint or the Smithsonian.
This is a valid complaint. Kind of like avoiding trips requiring air travel due to the hassle at the airport, which I have done.
   2825. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 16, 2013 at 08:29 PM (#4416231)
What is the obvious? Apparently you have to spell it out.

You've got to be kidding. "The obvious" is that the guy was "under suspicion."

Otherwise, what, in your mind, explains the authorities searching the guy's apartment and carrying away "bags of evidence"? Were the police somehow bored yesterday, on what was likely the busiest day for Boston law enforcement since 9/11?
   2826. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: April 16, 2013 at 08:33 PM (#4416234)

My family had a trip scheduled to DC very shortly after the Oklahoma City bombing (I don't remember exactly how soon afterwards; I was in high school at the time). We still went and had a great trip, but a few things that you previously were able to visit were closed off. For example, I think that was when they stopped giving tours of the FBI headquarters and I don't think they have ever offered them since.
   2827. Tripon Posted: April 16, 2013 at 08:35 PM (#4416236)

You've got to be kidding. "The obvious" is that the guy was "under suspicion."

Otherwise, what, in your mind, explains the authorities searching the guy's apartment and carrying away "bags of evidence"? Were the police somehow bored yesterday, on what was likely the busiest day for Boston law enforcement since 9/11?


Wait, what. Are you saying it is not a liberal position to be skeptical of police questioning people are not considered suspects. Really?
   2828. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: April 16, 2013 at 08:39 PM (#4416240)
You've got to be kidding. "The obvious" is that the guy was "under suspicion" brown.
   2829. Gonfalon B. Posted: April 16, 2013 at 08:39 PM (#4416242)
Here's another lefty embarrassing himself: Georgia Senator Saxby Chambliss:
"He was never categorized as a suspect; he was a person of interest. My understanding is that he totally cooperated and that he is no longer a person of interest."
   2830. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 16, 2013 at 08:39 PM (#4416243)
Oh, not talking about the Post anymore, huh?

***
Wait, what. Are you saying it is not a liberal position to be skeptical of police questioning people are not considered suspects. Really?

This seems to be missing one or more words. But if the point was that the police just hassled this guy for the fun of it, on a day when all hell was breaking loose in Boston, it's a silly comment/allegation.
   2831. Pingu Posted: April 16, 2013 at 08:39 PM (#4416244)
My family had a trip scheduled to DC very shortly after the Oklahoma City bombing (I don't remember exactly how soon afterwards; I was in high school at the time). We still went and had a great trip, but a few things that you previously were able to visit were closed off. For example, I think that was when they stopped giving tours of the FBI headquarters and I don't think they have ever offered them since.


I got to imagine tours of the FBI headquarters weren't all that interesting to begin with. I mean not that Ive been called in for questioning in the last few years, but isnt it just a bunch of offices, cubes, and conference rooms?
   2832. Gonfalon B. Posted: April 16, 2013 at 08:41 PM (#4416248)
Otherwise, what, in your mind, explains the authorities searching the guy's apartment and carrying away "bags of evidence"? Were the police somehow bored yesterday, on what was likely the busiest day for Boston law enforcement since 9/11?

Yet, bafflingly, the police emphatically and repeatedly took time away from their investigation to inform the press and the public that the man was not an official suspect. If only you'd been there to tell them how busy they were.
   2833. Morty Causa Posted: April 16, 2013 at 08:42 PM (#4416249)
The Los Angeles Times says the guy is "no longer under suspicion."


Kehoskie, why are you placing such credence in the LA Times when you didn't in those other news organs that were reporting he wasn't a suspect?

Too, that his apartment was searched may not have had anything to do with him per se. For instance, it could have been about a friend or acquaintance who was staying there.

   2834. Gonfalon B. Posted: April 16, 2013 at 08:44 PM (#4416252)
Oh, not talking about the Post anymore, huh?

Oh, I can do that. If the "Saudi cleared" news broke around 4-5 PM this afternoon, why had the Post spent the entire day disengaging from its derided coverage?

And have they found those ten extra corpses yet? You could probably locate a few in the New York Post's standards and practices department.
   2835. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: April 16, 2013 at 08:45 PM (#4416254)
This seems to be missing one or more words. But if the point was that the police just hassled this guy for the fun of it, on a day when all hell was breaking loose in Boston, it's a silly comment/allegation.
but why is it that he was he questioned? and if many other people were also questioned, why is it that only his questioning was newsworthy?


   2836. Publius Publicola Posted: April 16, 2013 at 08:46 PM (#4416257)
It's not that I'm afraid of an attack. It's that I prefer not to spend big bucks to wait in line for 2 hours going through metal detectors and bomb sniffing dogs to get into the mint or the Smithsonian.


You're going to have to go through metal detectors anyway. It's been that way for years and it doesn't take long, maybe 1 minute.
   2837. Publius Publicola Posted: April 16, 2013 at 08:50 PM (#4416266)
Oh, not talking about the Post anymore, huh?


I am. What about those 12 deaths, huh?
   2838. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 16, 2013 at 08:50 PM (#4416267)
Yet, bafflingly, the police emphatically and repeatedly took time away from their investigation to inform the press and the public that the man was not an official suspect. If only you'd been there to tell them how busy they were.

Ray has already explained this.

***
Kehoskie, why are you placing such credence in the LA Times when you didn't in those other news organs that were reporting he wasn't a suspect?

Too, that his apartment was searched may not have had anything to do with him per se. For instance, it could have been about a friend or acquaintance who was staying there.

I'm not "placing credence"; I'm showing that a lefty outlet was using the same general terminology as the dreaded right-wing Post.

As for the second paragraph, give me a break. You want us to believe this guy was never a suspect but the police lucked into picking up a guy whose roommate(s) were suspects? Please.

***
but why is it that he was he questioned? and if many other people were also questioned, why is it that only his questioning was newsworthy?

Were other people's homes searched, with "bags of evidence" carried away?
   2839. Publius Publicola Posted: April 16, 2013 at 08:55 PM (#4416273)
I'm still trying to figure out hwo they came up with the number 12. It's not even close to the actual one. Here's how I think the conversation went:


Post Frontpage Editor: Wow, that sounds awful. How many deaths?

Post reporter: I don't know. I know there's some. And more to come based on the wounds I've seen at the hospital here.

Post Frontpage Editor: Well, about how many than?

Post reporter: I don't know. It's hard to say. The doctors are very busy, I know that.

Post Frontpage Editor: Give me a ####### number! We're going to print in 20 minutes!

Post reporter: Errrr.......... 12?

Post Frontpage Editor: Great! Super job with the scoop. Now, any suspects yet?

Post reporter: (oh ####)





   2840. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: April 16, 2013 at 08:57 PM (#4416276)
Have we yet found out which civilian detained the wounded Saudi who had the nerve to run from a bomb blast? Would love to hear his side of things.
   2841. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: April 16, 2013 at 08:58 PM (#4416278)
From what I recall, the Post's declaration of 12 dead came around the same time when responsible outlets were reporting 12 casualties. Big difference.
   2842. Publius Publicola Posted: April 16, 2013 at 08:58 PM (#4416281)
GS, I don't want to judge that dude too harshly. He was reacting in a instance of great emotional confusion and fear. He tackled the guy but he didn't beat him up or anything.
   2843. Pingu Posted: April 16, 2013 at 09:04 PM (#4416289)
I'm still trying to figure out hwo they came up with the number 12. It's not even close to the actual one. Here's how I think the conversation went:


Post Frontpage Editor: Wow, that sounds awful. How many deaths?

Post reporter: I don't know. I know there's some. And more to come based on the wounds I've seen at the hospital here.

Post Frontpage Editor: Well, about how many than?

Post reporter: I don't know. It's hard to say. The doctors are very busy, I know that.

Post Frontpage Editor: Give me a ####### number! We're going to print in 20 minutes!

Post reporter: Errrr.......... 12?

Post Frontpage Editor: Great! Super job with the scoop. Now, any suspects yet?

Post reporter: (oh ####)


I think the Post is bullshit, and I said "dont believe that until you hear it elsewhere" to my wife as soon as it was re-reported on the radio here. But even so, this caricature is too harsh. There were plenty of interviews that day with people saying all kinds of things. No other major publication ran with it unconfirmed, but its not hard to imagine they did have a source that said 12 dead.
   2844. Mayor Blomberg Posted: April 16, 2013 at 09:06 PM (#4416291)
Ricin letter, per NYTimes

The letter was postmarked in Memphis and had no suspicious markings or return address, the office of the Senate sergeant-at-arms reported.

A federal official said the letter had been sent to the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s laboratories in Quantico, Va., for further examination because field tests for ricin can be unreliable.

Ricin can be fatal if ingested or inhaled. In 2004, Senate offices were closed for days after the poison was found in the mailroom of Senator Bill Frist, a Tennessee Republican, who was the majority leader then. And detection of ricin carried echoes of the anthrax attack on the Senate just days after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

Senator Claire McCaskill, Democrat of Missouri, told reporters after the Napolitano briefing that the letter had come from someone who frequently writes lawmakers. She said the person had been identified, but she declined to divulge the name.
   2845. Mayor Blomberg Posted: April 16, 2013 at 09:07 PM (#4416293)
Pingu: Not even World News Daily?
   2846. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 16, 2013 at 09:10 PM (#4416295)
You're going to have to go through metal detectors anyway. It's been that way for years and it doesn't take long, maybe 1 minute.


Yes, but for years they didn't have a recent terrorist bombing in Boston followed up by a chemical attack on the Senate. And note I said "if this keeps up". If nothing else happens, this is likely to blow over. If it does, DC ispossibly in lockdown mode and not worth visiting.
   2847. Gonfalon B. Posted: April 16, 2013 at 09:10 PM (#4416296)
I'm not "placing credence"; I'm showing that a lefty outlet was using the same general terminology as the dreaded right-wing Post.

You're not, and it didn't. From your own link:
"The man was considered a “person of interest,” but is no longer under suspicion, said a federal law enforcement official who requested anonymity to discuss an ongoing investigation."

The word "suspect" appears zero times in your posted article. He can't no longer be one, when he never was one.

The Seattle Post Intelligencer explains:
"Officers sometimes face problems when reporters confuse the terms suspect and person of interest – something that could potentially be libelous in an article. A person of interest who is hesitant to talk to the police may not if they’re labeled publicly as a suspect in a related crime."

So not only was the New York Post's first-day coverage wrong, it could theoretically have impeded the investigation. I smell Pulitzer!
   2848. Pingu Posted: April 16, 2013 at 09:15 PM (#4416299)
Blomberg, I dont know what that means.
   2849. McCoy Posted: April 16, 2013 at 09:18 PM (#4416303)
You want to know which event is going to be a real pain in the ass because of security? The White House Correspondents Dinner, that is what.
   2850. Publius Publicola Posted: April 16, 2013 at 09:19 PM (#4416309)
If it does, DC ispossibly in lockdown mode and not worth visiting.


Anecdote. I live in downtown DC, near the waterfront. There is a middle school practice field directly across the street. A girls rugby team was practicing in the dark, even though they have stadium lights. As I was walking my dogs, I asked the coach through the fence "Why are you practicing in the dark?" and he replied "They won't let us turn them on because of the Boston attack.".

But still, Miserlou, you'll be fine. A lockdown just isn't going to happen.
   2851. Publius Publicola Posted: April 16, 2013 at 09:24 PM (#4416320)

The word "suspect" appears zero times in your posted article. He can't no longer be one, when he never was one.


GB, Kehoskie is just going to reply that a person "under suspicion" is a suspect. So you aren't going to win a semantic argument with him on this one, even though your larger point is correct that the Post jumped the gun.

This dialogue is going to go nowhere so let's let it rest, huh?.
   2852. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: April 16, 2013 at 09:24 PM (#4416321)
Were other people's homes searched, with "bags of evidence" carried away?
you want a bag of evidence, i can get you a bag of evidence dude. i can get you a bag of evidence by 3PM. with nailpolish.


again, why is it that his house was searched?

he's been cleared by the FBI, so he quite clearly was not involved in this, so what was it that prompted them to search his home in the first place?

oh that's right, he was injured in the blast. and he was running away.

now, it seems to me as if a lot of people would fit that particular description at that time, so what set him apart from everyone else?
   2853. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 16, 2013 at 09:28 PM (#4416330)
I got to imagine tours of the FBI headquarters weren't all that interesting to begin with. I mean not that Ive been called in for questioning in the last few years, but isnt it just a bunch of offices, cubes, and conference rooms?


There used to also be interrogation rooms, conference rooms, all kinds of labs, evidence storage and examinatiion rooms... If you're interested in that kind of thing, and a lot of people are, it would be as good as most other tours of things that interest you. I suppose everything other than paperwork might have been farmed out to satellite offices, in which case the interesting tours might be of those offices.

With all the CSI that gets watched, I imagine the FBI would be turning people away for these tours. People have always wanted to know more about crime, criminals, and law enforcement, and the FBI is the official American heart of that.

"They won't let us turn them on because of the Boston attack.".

Is there any conceivable rationale for this?
   2854. Lassus Posted: April 16, 2013 at 09:31 PM (#4416336)
This insistence from some lefties that a person who was not only questioned but also had his apartment searched didn't qualify as a "suspect" is patently absurd.

I have made no such claim; but any insistence, from anyone, that the POST isn't a piece of shit newspaper is far more absurd.
   2855. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 16, 2013 at 09:31 PM (#4416337)
This dialogue is going to go nowhere so let's let it rest, huh?
This line should be the political OT thread slogan.
   2856. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: April 16, 2013 at 09:35 PM (#4416341)
ok, look.

the only reason this guy was singled out for questioning (by a citizen, so there's no LEO bias here) was because of his skin color.
and the only reason why it was printed in the new york post was because of his nationality.


whether that is right or wrong, acceptable or not, is a discussion for another time. but it really should be acknowledged that those two statements are what drove the post's reporting.
   2857. Monty Predicts a Padres-Mariners WS in 2016 Posted: April 16, 2013 at 09:40 PM (#4416345)
whether that is right or wrong, acceptable or not, is a discussion for another time. but it really should be acknowledged that those two statements are what drove the post's reporting.


The Post was probably also driven by the urge to be first with the news. Which has to be hard for newspapers these days, since Twitter is so much faster.
   2858. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: April 16, 2013 at 09:42 PM (#4416348)

the only reason this guy was stopped (by a citizen, so there's no LEO bias here) was because of his skin color.
and the only reason why it was printed in the new york post was because of his nationality.


What is the source of the claim that the Saudi guy was tackled by a civilian? I saw that reported on CBS but I'm not sure that the reporter witnessed it firsthand, and I'm not sure how that reconciles with the reports that he was in the hospital with injuries sustained in the bombing. I suppose he could have suffered injuries requiring hospitalization, and also managed to start running away before he was tackled. Or that he could have suffered injuries in the tackling, not in the bombing.
   2859. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 16, 2013 at 09:43 PM (#4416351)
Feel free to shoot me a note if you do make the trip. I know you'll have your hands full but I am happy to meet for coffee or a drink.


We'll be staying at the L'Enfant Plaza Hotel on the nights of May 14-16. These trips are usually incredibly jam packed with activities.
   2860. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 16, 2013 at 09:44 PM (#4416355)
"They won't let us turn them on because of the Boston attack.".


Is there any conceivable rationale for this?


No. Just as there is no rationale for you to take off your shoes or be limited to 3 oz of shampoo when going through security at the airport.
   2861. Publius Publicola Posted: April 16, 2013 at 09:49 PM (#4416366)
We'll be staying at the L'Enfant Plaza Hotel on the nights of May 14-16.


Heh. I can practically hit that place with a rock from my front door. You can take your daughter down to the Tidal Basin for a stroll. It's 3 blocks away. Walk a little further to the Jefferson Memorial. Or walk the other direction the Air and Space. That's practically across the street from where you'll be.
   2862. Pingu Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:00 PM (#4416378)
"They won't let us turn them on because of the Boston attack.".


Is there any conceivable rationale for this?

No. Just as there is no rationale for you to take off your shoes or be limited to 3 oz of shampoo when going through security at the airport.


Well, its kind of different, since someone did try to blow up a plane with a shoe bomb, and a shampoo bottle makes for a pretty convienient liquid explosive smuggling device.

For the life of me, I cant figure out how making girls rugby team practice in the dark helps protect anyone.
   2863. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:00 PM (#4416379)
What is the source of the claim that the Saudi guy was tackled by a civilian?

I realize stress and all, but might this not be actionable? I suppose juries might tend to sympathize with the tackler, and I suppose he could skew his story to make the tacklee seem suspicious...

Still, if I was the guy scared birdless (not that I get scared birdless, of course) and was running for my life with my adrenaline spiking, and if some jackanape tackled me especially for the sin of being brown, which kept me closer rather than farther from the explosions, and particularly if I ended up in the hospital for more than a scrape, and as a result of this the effing FBI interrogated me for hours and searched my apartment--not to mention my name and picture were in the papers under headlines with words like 'suspect' and 'questioning'--I'd be seriously pissed off.

For the life of me, I cant figure out how making girls rugby team practice in the dark helps protect anyone.

Well, there's the usual rationale for trying to get girls to do things in the dark, but short of that the only remotely... plausible reason would be because if someone wanted to shoot at them it would be harder to hit them.
   2864. Mayor Blomberg Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:00 PM (#4416381)
Pingu, World net daily is a particularly inflammatory source of "news." can make Fox and the Post look mainstream.
   2865. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:11 PM (#4416393)
and a shampoo bottle makes for a pretty convienient liquid explosive smuggling device.


So do four 3 oz bottles, which you are allowed.

Well, its kind of different, since someone did try to blow up a plane with a shoe bomb


But children under 16 don't have to. but parents traveling with them do.

   2866. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:15 PM (#4416399)
Richard Jewell was investigated by the FBI, which made no official statement about his status for almost three months (as opposed to a three hour wait yesterday). But the Post still had to pay Jewell, because they went out too far beyond the facts.


I'll have to read more about it before I conclude this. There are lots of reasons for defendants to settle lawsuits.

They didn't go as far as that in Boston (stretching from investigation to suspect, rather than from investigation to guilty),


Well, yes, that is kind of an important line to blow past.

but they still went beyond any other news agency, and that's why they're being criticized. And presumably it's why they've since reined n their coverage.


They're being criticized because leftists don't want to call a Saudi a suspect for political reasons. They've since "reined in their coverage"... well, who knows why (and I'll assume they have - I haven't looked) - but I'll take a wild guess and say that maybe he's not a suspect anymore.

In addition to those outlets listed on the Wikipedia page, Jewell sued and collected from ABC News. There may have been more.


Fair enough.
   2867. McCoy Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:16 PM (#4416402)
So do four 3 oz bottles, which you are allowed.

Plus you are then allowed to buy big containers of water or alcohol once you get through the checkpoint. About 60% of the point of all the security measures is to make people feel better, 20% to CYA, 10% to create jobs, and about 10% of it is to actual protect people.
   2868. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:17 PM (#4416403)
We'll be staying at the L'Enfant Plaza Hotel on the nights of May 14-16. These trips are usually incredibly jam packed with activities.

That's a really good venue for students, as the Mall and several Smithsonian institutions are right around the corner. It also doesn't hurt that you'll have four Metro lines (Orange, Blue, Green, Yellow) under your feet....

EDIT: And what PP said.
   2869. McCoy Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:18 PM (#4416404)
Unless they blow it up!
   2870. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:18 PM (#4416405)
and about 10% of it is to actual protect people.


I don't think it's nearly that high.
   2871. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:19 PM (#4416406)
When you pretend that there's not a breath of difference between someone being investigated, and someone being designated as the focal target of that investigation, with all of the legalities that entails, you're the ones playing games with words.


Whoa. The focal point of the investigation? Since when was he designated this? He was a suspect they were investigating.

And the idea that the authorities wouldn't treat this guy as a suspect given the circumstances is utterly fantastical. They would have had to be utterly incompetent not to do so.
   2872. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:20 PM (#4416407)
And the idea that the authorities wouldn't treat this guy as a suspect given the circumstances is utterly fantastical. They would have had to be utterly incompetent not to do so.


Really? How many people who ran away from the explosion were investigated and had their homes searched?
   2873. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:24 PM (#4416413)
and a shampoo bottle makes for a pretty convienient liquid explosive smuggling device.

So do four 3 oz bottles, which you are allowed.


Really? How can that make sense?

Well, I suppose it can if there are no liquid explosives someone can get their hands on that can damage a plane in quantities less than 12 ounces, but in that case why make someone use four different bottles to get to the acceptable, 12 ounce limit? Is it that a 12 ounce bottle too easily can conceal within it, say, a decent sized blade?

Hmm. That actually makes some sense. A typical shampoo bottle could easily carry two carbon fiber blades that joined end to end could make a nasty knife with a 12 inch blade.
   2874. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:31 PM (#4416423)
So do four 3 oz bottles, which you are allowed.



Really? How can that make sense?


It doesn't, thus my original point.

Well, I suppose it can if there are no liquid explosives someone can get their hands on that can damage a plane in quantities less than 12 ounces,


You can carry as many as you want, as long as they are in containers of 3oz or less.

Is it that a 12 ounce bottle too easily can conceal within it, say, a decent sized blade?

Hmm. That actually makes some sense. A typical shampoo bottle could easily carry two carbon fiber blades that joined end to end could make a nasty knife with a 12 inch blade.


No. They are still x-rayed. While a carbon fiber blade may not set off a metal detector, they will show up on an x-ray

   2875. Lassus Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:33 PM (#4416424)
No. Just as there is no rationale for you to take off your shoes or be limited to 3 oz of shampoo when going through security at the airport.

I agree on the lack of rugby rational and disagree on the lack of flight rational.

Of course, I find flying to be unnatural and thoroughly troubling, so I honestly don't care about any of the security measures at all.
   2876. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:37 PM (#4416427)
I got to imagine tours of the FBI headquarters weren't all that interesting to begin with. I mean not that Ive been called in for questioning in the last few years, but isnt it just a bunch of offices, cubes, and conference rooms?

The FBI used to have a very popular tour that ended at the firing range with the G-Men destroying targets with Tommy guns. Then somebody decided the ventilation wasn't adequate for that so they stopped. Boo.
   2877. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:37 PM (#4416428)
Yet, bafflingly, the police emphatically and repeatedly took time away from their investigation to inform the press and the public that the man was not an official suspect.


Not baffling at all, to someone who understands why. I repeat from my post #2682:

You have to understand why police deny that people are "suspects." One reason is because if he's not a suspect -- is not "in custody" and is arguably free to leave -- then the cops might be able to get away with asking him questions (or having asked him questions) before Mirandaizing him, and using the obtained evidence against him later.


Good luck trying to argue in court that you didn't have to read him his rights because he wasn't under custodial interrogation -- and yet at the time you were running to the media to tell them he was a suspect.
   2878. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:39 PM (#4416430)
Of course, I find flying to be unnatural and thoroughly troubling, so I honestly don't care about any of the security measures at all.


I don't object to true security. But I do object to the pointlessness of many of the procedures. I can't bring a 12 oz bottle of shampoo, but I can bring four 3 oz bottles. I have to take off my shoes and belt, but my kids don't. The two latter exceptions above make the two former requirements meaningless in terms of actual security.
   2879. Gonfalon B. Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:39 PM (#4416432)
Three small points re: #2866--
The Post dropped its "suspect" language early this morning; the news that the man would be officially cleared didn't break until late in the day.

Though there are many good and bad reasons to settle lawsuits, Richard Jewell reportedly collected millions of dollars off fewer than ten suits, one of which was dismissed after his death. (And if you do read more about it, you'll find that the Atlanta Journal-Constitution was the most aggressive of the group.) Millions of dollars isn't crank case money, that's "pay him $500,000 so we don't risk having a jury make us pay $15 million" money. You won't read more about that, however, because the payoffs were all sealed.

No one is questioning the authorities' competence in thoroughly investigating the guy. Many people are questioning the New York Post's competence in being the one and only news outlet to report on the investigation the way they did.
   2880. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:40 PM (#4416433)
Hmm. That actually makes some sense. A typical shampoo bottle could easily carry two carbon fiber blades that joined end to end could make a nasty knife with a 12 inch blade.

No. They are still x-rayed. While a carbon fiber blade may not set off a metal detector, they will show up on an x-ray


Don't matter, nobody is ever hijacking an airplane with a blade of any sort ever again. Every single able-bodied person on the plane would swarm the hijacker as soon as it was brandished.
   2881. Howie Menckel Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:40 PM (#4416435)

"I realize stress and all, but might this not be actionable? I suppose juries might tend to sympathize with the tackler,"

maybe a little bit.

have you been to Boston?

   2882. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:44 PM (#4416441)
Don't matter, nobody is ever hijacking an airplane with a blade of any sort ever again. Every single able-bodied person on the plane would swarm the hijacker as soon as it was brandished.


And there's that as well. Well, at least after 12 years I can now put my corkscrew back in my carry on and not have to buy a new one at my destination every time I fly (and throw it away before I leave).
   2883. Gonfalon B. Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:47 PM (#4416445)
On every single flight I've taken in the past 12 years, I have successfully brought my nail clippers. Look out, this mad dog just might bite.
   2884. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:47 PM (#4416446)
I'm still trying to figure out hwo they came up with the number 12. It's not even close to the actual one. Here's how I think the conversation went:



Post Frontpage Editor: Wow, that sounds awful. How many deaths?

Post reporter: I don't know. I know there's some. And more to come based on the wounds I've seen at the hospital here.

Post Frontpage Editor: Well, about how many than?

Post reporter: I don't know. It's hard to say. The doctors are very busy, I know that.


Actually, no, what the Post said was that a source reported that number to them.

And since they correctly identified that the Saudi was a suspect, we have evidence that they don't just run to print with crap.

Post Frontpage Editor: Give me a ####### number! We're going to print in 20 minutes!


Lol. This sounds like Dan's mortgage lender: "NO I CAN'T EXPLAIN WHAT AN ARM IS AND YOU MUST SIGN WITHIN THE NEXT 10 SECONDS OR THESE RATES WILL BE GONE!!!!"

The mind of a liberal must be a very bizarre place.
   2885. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:48 PM (#4416447)
Good luck trying to argue in court that you didn't have to read him his rights because he wasn't under custodial interrogation -- and yet at the time you were running to the media to tell them he was a suspect.

It would seem incredibly risky to push the boundaries of the 5th Amendment by questioning an individual who is hospitalized and probably unable to leave when every study I've ever seen says that reading people their Miranda rights has no effect on their subsequent willingness to speak with authorities.
   2886. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:51 PM (#4416453)

On every single flight I've taken in the past 12 years, I have successfully brought my nail clippers. Look out, this mad dog just might bite.

I didn't even know nail clippers were banned until I was going through security in a foreign airport and they made me toss them. I had brought them on planes in the US for years with no issue.
   2887. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:53 PM (#4416455)
You're not, and it didn't. From your own link:
"The man was considered a “person of interest,” but is no longer under suspicion, said a federal law enforcement official who requested anonymity to discuss an ongoing investigation."

The word "suspect" appears zero times in your posted article. He can't no longer be one, when he never was one.


Uh, do you see the words "is no longer under suspicion" there? Allow me to run and grab some popcorn while I wait for your explanation as to just how in the hell someone could be "under suspicion" but yet not a suspect. This should be fascinating.

The Seattle Post Intelligencer explains:
"Officers sometimes face problems when reporters confuse the terms suspect and person of interest – something that could potentially be libelous in an article. A person of interest who is hesitant to talk to the police may not if they’re labeled publicly as a suspect in a related crime."


Right. Because once the police label them publicly as a suspect, there's no way in hell the police are going to be able to argue that they didn't have to read him his rights. And so, yes, the person "may not talk to the police" after the person is read his rights - I fully agree.

Why you think this supports your position rather than ours is a mystery.
   2888. Pingu Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:53 PM (#4416456)
Look, I aint defending the policies of TSA, the whole racket is an asinine experiment in how to collect the dumbest of the dumb in a seemingly important activity, but can you people really not see the difference between making people take off their shoes or throw away their shampoo before boarding a plane, and shutting off the lights on some poor random girls rugby team?
   2889. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:54 PM (#4416457)
I didn't even know nail clippers were banned until I was going through security in a foreign airport and they made me toss them. I had brought them on planes in the US for years with no issue.


And yet car keys can be used as a far more lethal weapon than nail clippers (OK, neither really can be, but car keys are more plausible), and as far as I know, have never been banned.
   2890. Lassus Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:55 PM (#4416458)
Actually, no, what the Post said was that a source reported that number to them.

Sources say a lot of things. Maybe someone should have considered checking on it.


And since they correctly identified that the Saudi was a suspect, we have evidence that they don't just run to print with crap.

Even if one were to agree with you about how everything went down and should be defined, the idea that it somehow means the POST isn't frequently printing whatever diarrhea comes out of their ass and mouth simultaneously doesn't make a single bit of logical sense. Your AI is broken.
   2891. Pingu Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:56 PM (#4416459)
Why you think this supports your position rather than ours is a mystery.


Why any of you are still debating semantics of some half-news outlet is a mystery to all the rest of us.
   2892. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:57 PM (#4416461)
but can you people really not see the difference between making people take off their shoes or throw away their shampoo before boarding a plane, and shutting off the lights on some poor random girls rugby team?


No, I really can't. Or more specifically, if the latter makes us .001% safer, the former makes us only .002% safer. In real terms, both are meaningless.
   2893. Gonfalon B. Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:59 PM (#4416465)
The New York Times corrects its reporting:
“An earlier version of this article referred incorrectly to marathon jackets worn by some participants. They were available for purchase; they were not given to runners.”

The New York Post corrects its reporting:
"The official death toll was three, but a law-enforcement source told The Post it could be as high as 12."
   2894. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 16, 2013 at 11:01 PM (#4416467)

GB, Kehoskie is just going to reply that a person "under suspicion" is a suspect.


Yes, imagine that, arguing that a phrase which specifically appears as the definition of a word means that the word applies. To what depths will Joe stoop to next?

Definition of Suspect

Babylon English Dictionary

one who is under suspicion, one who is suspected of a crime or offense


US Legal

Suspect Law & Legal Definition

In criminal law, a suspect is someone who is under suspicion



   2895. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 16, 2013 at 11:01 PM (#4416468)
(CNN) -- Sugar-sweetened beverages are linked to more than 180,000 obesity-related deaths worldwide each year, according to new research presented this week at an American Heart Association conference.
"This means about one in every 100 deaths from obesity-related diseases is caused by drinking sugary beverages," says study author Gitanjali Singh, a postdoctoral research fellow at the Harvard School of Public Health.


I recently got into the habit of drinking half a dozen cans of Sierra Mist a day, primarily to avoid dehydration. I don't think it's possible for me to get fat, or even five pounds overweight, but I can't find any data on sugary drinks that aren't related to obesity. Our national obsession with it (without, you know, actually losing weight) makes some data hard to find.

I don't object to true security. But I do object to the pointlessness of many of the procedures. I can't bring a 12 oz bottle of shampoo, but I can bring four 3 oz bottles. I have to take off my shoes and belt, but my kids don't. The two latter exceptions above make the two former requirements meaningless in terms of actual security.

Sure, and this sort of thing is true of most human activity.

HM: I've been to Boston, as have most civilized folk in the U.S. Why do you ask?

edit: anyone catch the premiere of the new 'syfy' series Defiance? The first episode was interesting enough to keep me around for a couple of hours, but I wasn't riveted.
   2896. McCoy Posted: April 16, 2013 at 11:02 PM (#4416471)
Don't matter, nobody is ever hijacking an airplane with a blade of any sort ever again. Every single able-bodied person on the plane would swarm the hijacker as soon as it was brandished.

Nobody is going to be able to hijack a plane ever again period. If they do the passengers in the plane deserve what they get. Terrorists will be able to take down planes but terrorists are never again (or at least not for a very long time) going to get a meek group of passengers as their hostages. Once planes were used as missiles the notion that one could survive the ordeal if they simply kept their head down vanished and isn't coming back for a long time.
   2897. McCoy Posted: April 16, 2013 at 11:06 PM (#4416474)
I recently got into the habit of drinking half a dozen cans of Sierra Mist a day, primarily to avoid dehydration. I don't think it's possible for me to get fat, or even five pounds overweight, but I can't find any data on sugary drinks that aren't related to obesity. Our national obsession with it (without, you know, actually losing weight) makes some data hard to find.

That's 900 calories added to your daily diet. Unless you've increased your physical activities or were somehow losing weight beforehand or stopped taking calories from other places you are going to gain weight.
   2898. Lassus Posted: April 16, 2013 at 11:06 PM (#4416475)
The New York Post corrects its reporting:
"The official death toll was three, but a law-enforcement source told The Post it could be as high as 12."


That is some kind of correction:

12 dead, nearly 50 injured after 2 explosions rock Boston Marathon, suspect identified and being guarded in hospital

A federal law-enforcement source confirmed to The Post there are at least 12 dead...


Ray, that you have been reduced to defending the POST as a reliable source of information is just beyond sad.

   2899. Pingu Posted: April 16, 2013 at 11:09 PM (#4416480)
but can you people really not see the difference between making people take off their shoes or throw away their shampoo before boarding a plane, and shutting off the lights on some poor random girls rugby team?


No, I really can't. Or more specifically, if the latter makes us .001% safer, the former makes us only .002% safer. In real terms, both are meaningless.


There was a dude. Who put a bomb. In his shoe. And boarded a plane.

Whether it actually makes us safer is up for debate. I'd guess closer to .1% safer, but no quibbles there. But seriously what purpose would shutting the lights off a youth athletic field serve in the world of homeland security?
   2900. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 16, 2013 at 11:15 PM (#4416488)
But seriously what purpose would shutting the lights off a youth athletic field serve in the world of homeland security?


How does making some people take off their shoes and others not make us any safer? If shoes are a potential threat, search them all. If some need not be searched, then none need be. It's as pointless as shutting off the lights.
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