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Sunday, March 31, 2013

OTP: April 2013: Daily Caller: Baseball and the GOP: To rebrand the party, think like a sports fan

This week’s GOP autopsy report, commissioned by RNC Chairman Reince Priebus, is a great start in the much-needed task of rebranding the Republican Party. As the chairman acknowledged, “the way we communicate our principles isn’t resonating widely enough” and “we have to be more inclusive.” The report contains 219 recommendations to “connect people to our principles.” To achieve that goal, the party will need a strategic vision of how voters think about politics, which is something that the report lacks. For that, the GOP can learn a lot from another American passion: baseball.

This year, about 75 million Americans will go to the baseball stadium to watch a ballgame, about the same number as those who will vote in next year’s election. We rarely think about why someone becomes a baseball fan, or why they root for a certain team. Nor do we usually think about why someone chooses to vote for a certain political party. But it’s actually a very useful exercise.

When it comes to baseball, fan loyalty has almost nothing to do with the brain, and almost everything to do with the heart. In all of history, there’s never been a baseball fan who rooted for his team because it had the lowest ticket prices, or because it had the most taxpayer-friendly stadium deal, or because its players did the most community service. For the vast majority of Americans, rooting for a baseball team — not to mention, voting for a political party — isn’t really a rational choice; it’s more of a statement of personal identity — a statement telling the world, “This is who I am.” And for most people, defining “who I am” starts with family and community, before branching out into areas like race, age, gender, and class.

Family is pretty straightforward. If your mom and dad are Yankee fans, you’re almost certainly a Yankee fan. The same is true in politics. If your mom and dad are Republicans, you’re almost certainly a Republican.

Community is also pretty straightforward. If you grew up in, say, Philadelphia, chances are pretty great you’re a Phillies fan. Likewise, someone who grew up in Republican territory like, say, suburban Dallas or rural Indiana is much more likely to become a Republican than a nearly identical person from Seattle or Santa Fe.

Cities with more than one baseball team, like New York or Chicago, show revealing breakdowns by race and gender. The racial split in Chicago between Cubs fans on the North Side and White Sox fans on the South Side is well-documented. In New York, there’s an intriguing gender gap between Mets and Yankee fans, with women gravitating a lot more to the Yanks. While there’s a few theories out there trying to explain that, one obvious answer leaps out: Yankees heartthrob Derek Jeter.

In sports, as in politics, people’s convictions can’t be conveniently reduced to who their parents are or what they look like. But those things are an important foundation, upon which more rational sentiments come into being. Once you’re attached to your team on an emotional level — seeing them as a personal reflection of who you are and what you care about most — a rational exterior comes into being through phrases like “the Red Sox are the best team because they have the most heart” or “the Republicans are the best party because they know how to create jobs.”

Tripon Posted: March 31, 2013 at 10:52 AM | 6544 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

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   3101. zenbitz Posted: April 17, 2013 at 03:52 PM (#4417128)
I will bite on GoodFaces' "I hope that the bomber is... "

We agree it's a sunk cost, right? The question is - what bomber would, in a Utilitarian sense, reduce future global human suffering.

Some options:
1) Al Q - well, OK. Least surprising. Downside: Increased nationalism, drone strikes, possibly Afgan/Pak involvement. But really, probably just show boating, I don't think any *practical* solutions to the AQ threat are being ingnored at this juncture. Upside: Not likely to change much.

2a) Non Al-Q islamicist - basically the same as (1) but likely worse (more overseas deaths, more stateside restrictions - two groups scarier than one), little upside of actually "solving islamist terrorists". Unless it somehow (fat chance) results in Washington realizing that you do reap what you sow.

2b) 2a, BUT specifically a revenge attack for an *innocent* victim of drone strike. This has the outside-outside possibility of raising awareness that maybe, just maybe, dropping semi-arbitrary explosive payloads in civilian populated areas just isn't a very nice thing to do, even if you do occasionally kill a villain.

2c) Same as 2b) BUT the marathon bomber actually had a specific US target who was "somehow" responsible for drone-related carnage. This is probably liberal wetdream scenario, non-abortionclinic division, but is so implausible that I am not really going to consider it.

3) Non islamicist foreign nationals - WTH. Someone else hates us enough to randomly bomb stuff? Sub-saharan Africans? Golden Dawn? Cuba? There aren't any reasonable foreign reactionary non-islamic groups that I can think of so, clearly this favors righties, although probably overall not a big winner.

4) Domestic terrorist org., lefty/anarchist/socialist: So, so 1960s. Or 1910s. I think this would be pretty bad for the US Left overall, just as it was starting to get some play with environmentalism and gay marriage. Since I am somewhat in favor of these things, it's not on my wish list.

5a) Domestic terrorist org,, militia/antiabortionist: This is the standard lefty favorite. SEE WHITE GUYS ARE JUST AS BOMBER-Y AS BROWN ONES. Downside: Increased domestic surveillance and security, which is the suxors. Upside: Those guys are the bastards with whom I philosphically disagree on many issues, so maybe some will get killed.

5b) Domestic terrorist org, racist: Eh.

5c) Domestic terrorist org, homophobic: This is a wild card I just thought of. A strong runner on the lefty-wish list as any enemy of enemies of gays is a friend of mine. May just kick the supreme court in the butt.

6) Lone wolf (domestic or foreign, it hardly matters): Well, maybe it will get people to get more buddhist about the whole terror thing, but I doubt it.
   3102. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: April 17, 2013 at 03:55 PM (#4417130)
WBZ Boston (CBS) reporting that the alleged suspect is white male, black hoodie and jacket, on a cell phone, but they don't have an ID on him. So that quote I posted last page about IDing him via cell phone records is clearly wrong.

I think that that description still leaves the door wide open as to whodunnit. I'm simply not going to speculate at this point because I have no clue who this evil sonofabitch is or why they did it. Anything beyond that is just speculation, which is fine so long as we all agree it's just speculation. I think it's also ridiculous to judge who might be politically advantaged by the attack or what ideology their partisan opponents are hoping the bomber represents. 3 people in my city were killed. I know 3 people who were there when the bombs went off, and they're all ####### freaked out. Have some respect.

eta: WBZ is saying we need to wait for hard information and stop running around the Twitter playing telephone. Bad when your local news team has higher journalistic standards than national news orgs.
   3103. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:02 PM (#4417135)
Here's my take on suspectgate. Yes, the Saudi guy fit a dictionary definition of suspect, and the Post was correct on some semantic level. But because


Then game over.

   3104. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:05 PM (#4417137)
WBZ Boston (CBS) reporting that the alleged suspect is white male, black hoodie and jacket, on a cell phone


The "alleged suspect." Hilarious. We're through the looking glass.

Leftists really don't understand that "suspect" does not mean that the person in question is guilty.
   3105. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:05 PM (#4417139)
You have to understand that the worst case scenario for the leftists who make up the Cathedral would be an attack by foreign nationals. Such an event would gin up feelings of nationalism, which they want to avoid at all costs; feelings of nationalism lead to immigration restriction, as well as more aggressive foreign policy. Hard to slash military budgets when people feel under attack by foreign powers.

An attack by right wing domestic terrorists would be the best case scenario; they could make political hay out of that. But even if it turns out domestic left wing terrorists were responsible, they'll just be whitewashed as mentally ill crazies; no harm, no foul.

Anyway, that's why the usual suspects (heh) are spinning so hard that the Saudi guy isn't a suspect, won't be a suspect, couldn't POSSIBLY have EVER been a suspect.


Quite obviously true, as true as it is that 2+2=4.

The lefties are fervently hoping for this to be the work of right wing militants or, at worst, a "neutral" attack by a Columbine-esque teenager.


So just to keep your reputation as a fearlessly evenhanded observer intact, what sort of suspect do you think that the righties are hoping for? Or maybe you think that they're above all that.

---------------------------------------------

I'm simply not going to speculate at this point because I have no clue who this evil sonofabitch is or why they did it. Anything beyond that is just speculation, which is fine so long as we all agree it's just speculation. I think it's also ridiculous to judge who might be politically advantaged by the attack or what ideology their partisan opponents are hoping the bomber represents. 3 people in my city were killed. I know 3 people who were there when the bombs went off, and they're all ####### freaked out. Have some respect.

eta: WBZ is saying we need to wait for hard information and stop running around the Twitter playing telephone. Bad when your local news team has higher journalistic standards than national news orgs.


Word.
   3106. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:06 PM (#4417141)
The Onion on media miscoverage. Thank God for the Onion.
   3107. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:11 PM (#4417143)
Leftists really don't understand that "suspect" does not mean that the person in question is guilty.


I should have never unblocked you, you gelded yawping twit. I said alleged suspect because the news media might have the description wrong and the person is not the actual suspect, or because I misheard them and got the description wrong and am thus describing the wrong person. I'm an attorney, I work on criminal cases, I know what "suspect" means. Christ on a shitstick.
   3108. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:11 PM (#4417144)
Then game over.


OK Peter Brady.
   3109. BDC Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:11 PM (#4417145)
The Onion is indeed fearless. After 9/11 they were the first publication to crack a solemnity that had stopped such jaded humorists as the McSweeneys crowd in their tracks, and here again they seem to have it just right.

For the record, I'm a lefty not "hoping" the bomber was anybody – I'd just keep an open mind that right now, it could be anybody, based purely on the track record of US terrorist bombings. And terrorists of any origin rarely have focussed goals, it bears remembering. They just want to make the world a worse place.
   3110. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:12 PM (#4417146)
BPD is stating that they don't have a photo or ID of any suspect, that FBI might. CBS was told by Mayor Menino that the FBI is "close to" identifying a suspect earlier this afternoon.

eta: The Onion on 9/11.
   3111. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:16 PM (#4417149)
Leftists really don't understand that "suspect" does not mean that the person in question is guilty.

Including the leftists at Fox News, the Wall Street Journal and the Washington Times.
   3112. The Good Face Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:16 PM (#4417150)
I will bite on GoodFaces' "I hope that the bomber is... "

We agree it's a sunk cost, right? The question is - what bomber would, in a Utilitarian sense, reduce future global human suffering.


What does the reduction of future global human suffering have to do with my post? And what makes you think the USG is particularly invested in that goal, or even that they should be?
   3113. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:17 PM (#4417151)
So we learn that the pure-as-the-driven-snow Daily News has a few tire tracks on it, re that photo they doctored. Shocking.


I don't recall anyone saying that the Daily News was pure as the driven snow, Ray, and pretty much everyone in the thread has said that they shouldn't have edited the photo. What's your point?
   3114. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:21 PM (#4417152)
I'm an attorney, I work on criminal cases, I know what "suspect" means. Christ on a shitstick.


scott, what would you call the Saudi guy, who, if the stories are true, was reported to the police by a citizen who tackled him because he looked suspicious and so they decided to question him. Seems to me if he is a suspect, as in "The police have a suspect", then everybody is a suspect and the word ceases to have any meaning. Under that standard, the police have never not had a suspect.
   3115. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:23 PM (#4417153)
CBS reporting their sources describing a man wearing a black jacket, grey hoodie, and a white baseball cap on backwards. He's on video placing a backpack on the ground in the area where the second bomb went off. He was on his cell phone when the first bomb went off, and he then walked away into the crowd after the first explosion.
   3116. Darkness and the howling fantods Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:26 PM (#4417154)
Then game over.

Hasn't it always been over?

Edit: And as a certifiable red-star wearing lefty, I don't think the Post did anything much wrong by referring to him as a suspect. Had they identified him by name, I would probably feel differently.
   3117. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:26 PM (#4417155)
I should have never unblocked you, you gelded yawping twit.


Feel free to put me back on block.
   3118. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:28 PM (#4417157)
I expect CNN to report the arrest of Alfred Dreyfus any minute now.
   3119. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:28 PM (#4417158)
J'accuse!
   3120. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:31 PM (#4417160)
Then game over.

Hasn't it always been over?

*golf clap*
   3121. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:32 PM (#4417161)
I wouldn't call him a suspect. That term is, at least in my experience, for someone who law enforcement believes to have been involved with a crime and who they're actively either seeking or investigating. I don't know the specific journalistic guidelines. I'd probably have used the term my source used to describe him, whether it's "the police are talking to a person of interest" or "the police are talking to a Saudi national." Suspect implies too much.

That being said, when I've worked on criminal cases it's either at or after arraignment so I'm not there when they're initially investigating and the usage might be broader than that.

* I currently work through CPCS as counsel for the indigent on misdemeanors, I have been involved in some felony trials back when I was at the Philadelphia Public Defenders as a law student.
   3122. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:33 PM (#4417162)
scott, what would you call the Saudi guy, who, if the stories are true, was reported to the police by a citizen who tackled him because he looked suspicious and so they decided to question him.


To be clear, there was more to it than that. Unless this account has been debunked:

CBS News' John Miller described the circumstances of the man's arrest.

"The Saudi national is someone who is here on a student visa. He was at the scene along with many other people when the blast happened. As everybody's kind of standing in shock, three Boston PD detectives see this guy moving quickly out of the crowd and as they're watching him, he seems to be moving very deliberately away, which could be a very natural thing after a bombing," reported Miller on "CBS This Morning."

"They stop him because he's covered with blood and all kinds of gore from the explosion. They think he may be injured, but it turns out that most of that is from other people. But he does have burns on his hands," said Miller. "They engage him, they start asking questions. There are things about his responses that made them uncomfortable, so they arrange to get him to the hospital."


----

Seems to me if he is a suspect, as in "The police have a suspect", then everybody is a suspect and the word ceases to have any meaning. Under that standard, the police have never not had a suspect.


Well, no, because they searched his home. And "everybody" hasn't had their homes searched. For starters.
   3123. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:36 PM (#4417165)
Seems to me if he is a suspect, as in "The police have a suspect", then everybody is a suspect and the word ceases to have any meaning.

No, no, see, making a distinction is nothing more than a devious flatfoot trick. The legal and procedural and ethical differences in publicly declaring someone a suspect or declaring them not a suspect are just part of the long con. And since the media has never questioned any official police account ever, they naturally fall in line. Because there's nothing leftists love more than obeisance to authority.
   3124. BDC Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:37 PM (#4417166)
I dunno, Gelded Yawping Twit would be a great handle if I weren't already fond of my own.
   3125. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:38 PM (#4417169)
And "everybody" hasn't had their homes searched.


Maybe they have, and maybe they haven't. We aren't really in a position to know, are we?
   3126. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:38 PM (#4417170)
I wouldn't call him a suspect. That term is, at least in my experience, for someone who law enforcement believes to have been involved with a crime and who they're actively either seeking or investigating.


Fits this guy perfectly. They believed him to have possibly been involved and so they detained him. They "actively investigated him" by searching his freaking home.

I don't know the specific journalistic guidelines. I'd probably have used the term my source used to describe him, whether it's "the police are talking to a person of interest" or "the police are talking to a Saudi national." Suspect implies too much.


Well, no. Suspect implies -- indeed, it means -- that he is under suspicion. Which he was, since they searched his home.

It is incredible this discussion is occurring.
   3127. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:39 PM (#4417171)
Presented without comment:

Maybe they have, and maybe they haven't. We aren't really in a position to know, are we?


   3128. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:40 PM (#4417172)
Here's my take on suspectgate. Yes, the Saudi guy fit a dictionary definition of suspect, and the Post was correct on some semantic level. But because

Then game over.
So we all seem to agree that the guy was a "suspect", but not because there was anything that might have made him suspicious beyond him being a brown-skinned Middle Easterner.

I'm more than happy say that the guy was a "suspect", but an incredibly weak one.
   3129. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:41 PM (#4417174)
At least 14 still in critical condition. Mass General and B&W both report all their patients are expected to live.

   3130. Pingu Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:41 PM (#4417175)
I cant believe the sheer number of posts you loonies have dedicated to the goshdarned word....suspect. I've never cared about anything this much in my entire life.
   3131. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:45 PM (#4417177)
I cant believe the sheer number of posts you loonies have dedicated to the goshdarned word....suspect. I've never cared about anything this much in my entire life.
Seriously. BBTF dickwaving. Every argument, no matter how pointless, has to be won by someone.
   3132. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:48 PM (#4417179)
They "actively investigated him" by searching his freaking home.

And "everybody" hasn't had their homes searched.


They had no PC to search his house. They searched it because he gave permission. If everybody who was there gave permission to have their house searched, then "everybody" would have had their house searched. That doesn't mean they were suspects.
   3133. The Good Face Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:48 PM (#4417180)
Every argument, no matter how pointless, has to be won by someone.


No it doesn't.
   3134. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:50 PM (#4417182)
I cant believe the sheer number of posts you loonies have dedicated to the goshdarned word....suspect. I've never cared about anything this much in my entire life.

I have. I've cared just as much about whether Sam was going to show us his Playgirl centerfold picture.
   3135. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:50 PM (#4417183)
It is incredible this discussion is occurring.


I agree that it is, though not for the reason that you think it's incredible.
   3136. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:51 PM (#4417184)
Presented without comment:


Well, what's wrong with that? For all we know, the police have searched a bunch of people's homes, but nobody happened to leak to the media about the other ones.
   3137. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:51 PM (#4417185)
Fits this guy perfectly. They believed him to have possibly been involved and so they detained him. They "actively investigated him" by searching his freaking home.


My understanding that they talked to him in the hospital where he was undergoing treatment for his injuries, and that he consented to the search of his house. And I was defining the term suspect as what I'd use in my capacity as someone who practices criminal law. If they got a search warrant for the house, and if he was indeed in custody, then yes you might determine that he was a suspect. But there's a reason why "person of interest" is commonly used, suspect is a very prejudicial term and it means more than just "we'd like to check you out."

I mean, by your standards if there's a police roadblock because they're looking for someone who committed a certain crime anyone who is stopped, talks to the cops, and consents to a search of their car is a suspect.
   3138. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:55 PM (#4417187)
Also, I only got dragged into this because I wanted to hedge the description of a potential suspect in the bombing! I just wanted to talk about what was actually happening, not get into a pissing match with someone who makes these pissing matches his raison d'etre!
   3139. bunyon Posted: April 17, 2013 at 04:59 PM (#4417189)
Seriously. BBTF dickwaving. Every argument, no matter how pointless, has to be won by someone.

Berle and Hamm tied for the lead.
   3140. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: April 17, 2013 at 05:01 PM (#4417190)
Anthony Wiener wants in on that race.
   3141. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: April 17, 2013 at 05:04 PM (#4417191)
The background check compromise got killed in the Senate via filibuster, getting 54 votes to include it in the gun bill. My initial prediction the morning of Newtown was, unfortunately, correct.
   3142. Lassus Posted: April 17, 2013 at 05:12 PM (#4417193)
Ray, having nothing at all to do with the debate about the word "suspect", where is the "more to it than that" in #3122? I cannot find it.
   3143. Greg K Posted: April 17, 2013 at 05:12 PM (#4417194)
I spent the rest of the flight in abject discomfort that someone would just decide to open the damn door and kill us all.

My most uncomfortable flight of my life was when I was given a seat by the emergency exit. Lots of leg room, but I just sat there for 7 hours fighting the urge to pop it open. I often have the uncontrollable urge to fiddle with things I shouldn't.
   3144. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 17, 2013 at 05:12 PM (#4417195)
The background check compromise got killed in the Senate via filibuster, getting 54 votes to include it in the gun bill. My initial prediction the morning of Newtown was, unfortunately, correct.
Why do the parents of murdered children hate our freedom?
   3145. Blastin Posted: April 17, 2013 at 05:14 PM (#4417196)
I often have the uncontrollable urge to fiddle with things I shouldn't.


I sit next to the fire alarm and the fire door at work. It's maddening (though the fire door just takes a picture rather than setting off an alarm).

I like my desk a lot; there's a window with a roof deck behind me and it's not a cubicle in the sense that I'm not blocked in. But, that fire alarm.
   3146. Dale Sams Posted: April 17, 2013 at 05:15 PM (#4417198)
5b) Domestic terrorist org, racist: Eh.


Is this where I deposit my theory that the attack occurred on Jackie Robinson Day against Boston for their being the last team to integrate? (Looks around at the feces covered walls)...I'll just leave this in the corner.
   3147. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 17, 2013 at 05:15 PM (#4417199)
My understanding that they talked to him in the hospital where he was undergoing treatment for his injuries, and that he consented to the search of his house. And I was defining the term suspect as what I'd use in my capacity as someone who practices criminal law. If they got a search warrant for the house, and if he was indeed in custody, then yes you might determine that he was a suspect. But there's a reason why "person of interest" is commonly used, suspect is a very prejudicial term and it means more than just "we'd like to check you out."


Exactly. Let's say my wife is raped. The police ask me to offer up a DNA sample to exclude me and I comply. That does not mean the "The are questioning a suspect. It is the husband and they are currently checking his DNA for proof.", as the term is commonly used by everybody except perhaps the NYP.
   3148. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: April 17, 2013 at 05:19 PM (#4417202)
My most uncomfortable flight of my life was when I was given a seat by the emergency exit. Lots of leg room, but I just sat there for 7 hours fighting the urge to pop it open. I often have the uncontrollable urge to fiddle with things I shouldn't.
Felt the same way during a helicopter ride over LA. Had I wanted to (or been struck mad), within seconds I could've been in freefall over Silver Lake.
   3149. The Good Face Posted: April 17, 2013 at 05:19 PM (#4417203)
The background check compromise got killed in the Senate via filibuster, getting 54 votes to include it in the gun bill. My initial prediction the morning of Newtown was, unfortunately, correct.


A great victory for civil rights.
   3150. formerly dp Posted: April 17, 2013 at 05:19 PM (#4417204)
The police ask me to offer up a DNA sample to exclude me and I comply.
Exactly the behavior of someone coyly trying to deflect suspicion. If you don't have anything to hide, why are you acting like you have nothing to hide?
   3151. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 17, 2013 at 05:24 PM (#4417206)
The background check compromise got killed in the Senate via filibuster, getting 54 votes to include it in the gun bill. My initial prediction the morning of Newtown was, unfortunately, correct.


Yeah, nothing like people in government using an unspeakable tragedy and grieving families to further their pet agenda. But since the Newtown shooting was a mental health issue, not a gun control one, it's thankful this "compromise" was defeated.
   3152. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: April 17, 2013 at 05:25 PM (#4417207)
Is this where I deposit my theory that the attack occurred on Jackie Robinson Day against Boston for their being the last team to integrate? (Looks around at the feces covered walls)...I'll just leave this in the corner.


The Sons of Pumpsie Green will not be ignored!
   3153. Dale Sams Posted: April 17, 2013 at 05:27 PM (#4417208)
And as long as I'm unloading lunatic #### to say that would lose me half my friends on FB, were I to post it there:

All that "It's so uplifting to know that there are people in the world who would run into a bomb zone to help people rather than run away." stuff? Those guys? The ones who run in to help strangers? Those guys we praise?....we drone the #### out of those guys when they are brown and have funny sounding names.
   3154. tfbg9 Posted: April 17, 2013 at 05:28 PM (#4417209)
I sit next to the fire alarm and the fire door at work. It's maddening (though the fire door just takes a picture rather than setting off an alarm).


Put a paper bag over your head?
   3155. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 17, 2013 at 05:32 PM (#4417212)
Yeah, nothing like people in government using an unspeakable tragedy and grieving families to further their pet agenda.


You mean like invading Iraq?
   3156. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 17, 2013 at 05:39 PM (#4417218)
The ones who run in to help strangers? Those guys we praise?....we drone the #### out of those guys when they are brown and have funny sounding names.
The drone issue is one that I've done a 180-turn on after the discussions on BTF.

You mean like invading Iraq?
Only the left does something like tht. Righties love America. Why don't you!
   3157. Publius Publicola Posted: April 17, 2013 at 05:43 PM (#4417220)
The background check compromise got killed in the Senate via filibuster, getting 54 votes to include it in the gun bill. My initial prediction the morning of Newtown was, unfortunately, correct.


Proving that the NRA is interested on one thing- expanding gun sales to the greatest possible extent.
   3158. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: April 17, 2013 at 05:47 PM (#4417222)
WBZ Boston (CBS) reporting that the alleged suspect is white male, black hoodie and jacket, on a cell phone, but they don't have an ID on him.

I'm still in it! This bit was worth wading through 100+ posts of people arguing over the word 'suspect'. I'm mean he used a pressure cooker and beebees, how can this not be some white trash piece of human garbage. I've got to win this one.
   3159. The Good Face Posted: April 17, 2013 at 05:48 PM (#4417223)
Yeah, nothing like people in government using an unspeakable tragedy and grieving families to further their pet agenda.


You mean like invading Iraq?


For example. Also, way to zing those mean old righties who apparently live in your head! I can't think of anybody here, right or left, who defends the invasion or thinks it was a good idea.
   3160. Publius Publicola Posted: April 17, 2013 at 05:48 PM (#4417224)
Religious right at it again, approving of murder:

Westboro Baptist Church To Pickets Funeral For Boston Victims

The extremist members of the Westboro Baptist Church are at it again and this time the targets for their messages of hate are the funerals for victims of the Boston Marathon bombings.

U.S. News and World Reports said on its website that the church is planning on protesting at the funerals of the three victims of the bombings.

Tweets from the controversial church Monday celebrated the tragedy and announced its plans.

The small congregation in Topeka, Kan., urged the U.S. government Monday to "reinstate" the death penalty for homosexuality and that Massachusetts "invited this special wrath from God Almighty when it was the first state to pass same-sex marriage" in 2004.

The group released a press release dated April 15.

Other tweets from the group stated "Thank God for the Boston Marathon bombs! Westboro Baptist Church to picket funerals of those killed."

   3161. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 17, 2013 at 05:49 PM (#4417225)
Religious right at it again, approving of murder:
I wouldn't lump Westboro in with anyone else. They're a blight unto themselves.
   3162. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 17, 2013 at 05:50 PM (#4417227)
I can't think of anybody here, right or left, who defends the invasion or thinks it was a good idea.
... anymore.

This also true of the TSA. Instituted by conservatives, blamed on liberals.
   3163. Steve Treder Posted: April 17, 2013 at 05:51 PM (#4417228)
The small congregation in Topeka, Kan., urged the U.S. government Monday to "reinstate" the death penalty for homosexuality and that Massachusetts "invited this special wrath from God Almighty when it was the first state to pass same-sex marriage" in 2004.

So, God Almighty is a white guy wearing a black hoodie and a jacket, talking on a cell phone. Who knew?
   3164. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 17, 2013 at 05:53 PM (#4417229)
Religious right at it again, approving of murder:

Westboro Baptist Church To Pickets Funeral For Boston Victims


Not sure where the Westboro loonies fit on the political spectrum, but Fred Phelps is a Democrat.
   3165. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: April 17, 2013 at 05:53 PM (#4417230)
Religious right at it again


Yeah, the Westboro Baptist Church is their own incredibly gross little family cult. I have serious issues with the religious right, but beyond noting that the WBC is both right wing and religious it's nearly libelous to compare them to the mainstream religious conservative movement.
   3166. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 17, 2013 at 05:54 PM (#4417231)
You mean like invading Iraq?


Is this a trick question? Yes. Exactly like that.

   3167. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 17, 2013 at 05:54 PM (#4417232)
Ray, having nothing at all to do with the debate about the word "suspect", where is the "more to it than that" in #3122? I cannot find it.

The discussions with him and his responses that made the police "uncomfortable."

That's usually how it works -- the cops come upon a situation that seems strange, ask a few questions, get what they interpret to be a response that's a bit off, and they go from there.

Only the modern liberal mind can go from the things in the CBS report in 3122 to, "They bothered him only because he was 'brown'". Now, it's certainly possible that the cops' spidey senses can be off and they appeared to be off here, but that's an entirely different proposition.
   3168. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 17, 2013 at 05:57 PM (#4417234)
I cant believe the sheer number of posts you loonies have dedicated to the goshdarned word....suspect. I've never cared about anything this much in my entire life.


When they do the movie on the bombings, this BBTF thread will be featured prominently. The lefties will be played by Fletcher Reede.
   3169. Greg K Posted: April 17, 2013 at 05:57 PM (#4417235)
I have serious issues with the religious right, but beyond noting that the WBC is both right wing and religious it's nearly libelous to compare them to the mainstream religious conservative movement.

I've grown to accept that some people just aren't going to like the World Baseball Classic, but this goes too far!
   3170. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 17, 2013 at 06:01 PM (#4417237)
The discussions with him and his responses that made the police "uncomfortable."


Yeah, I don't know why Lassus couldn't find that. It was right there in the snippet I posted.

What we don't have is an interview with the cops who found his responses strange, to learn exactly why his responses were strange to them. And? That is not "He is brown," but of course lefties see everything in brown and white.

...Except when Obama is using drones to kill such people, and then suddenly the leftists become colorblind. (It was MLK's hope decades ago that everyone would stop viewing each other through race-colored glasses, but lefties simply can't help themselves, except when it comes to Obama and drones.)
   3171. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 17, 2013 at 06:03 PM (#4417238)
Exactly. Let's say my wife is raped. The police ask me to offer up a DNA sample to exclude me and I comply. That does not mean the "The are questioning a suspect. It is the husband and they are currently checking his DNA for proof.", as the term is commonly used by everybody except perhaps the NYP.

Better analogy: There's a murder in the neighborhood. You happen to be outside. The police come up to you and ask you questions. They don't seem to be buying your answers. They then ask to search your house. They search your house.

Do you think at that point, "I'm not a suspect?"
   3172. Dale Sams Posted: April 17, 2013 at 06:05 PM (#4417239)
I'm still in it!


I *look* like Blue Robe Guy. I don't see how you can possibly trump that.
   3173. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: April 17, 2013 at 06:06 PM (#4417240)
I can't think of anybody here, right or left, who defends the invasion or thinks it was a good idea.

I can, but that's a subject for another day.
   3174. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 17, 2013 at 06:08 PM (#4417242)
Better analogy: There's a murder in the neighborhood. You happen to be outside. The police come up to you and ask you questions. They don't seem to be buying your answers. They then ask to search your house. They search your house.

Do you think at that point, "I'm not a suspect?"


Correct. And if a reporter were to witness this exchange, it would be wrong and irresponsible for him to call his editor and say "The police have a suspect."
   3175. The Good Face Posted: April 17, 2013 at 06:08 PM (#4417243)
This also true of the TSA. Instituted by conservatives, blamed on liberals.


Another one doing battle with the voices in his head. Find me some righties here who support the TSA. Go ahead, I'll wait.
   3176. zenbitz Posted: April 17, 2013 at 06:09 PM (#4417246)
What does the reduction of future global human suffering have to do with my post? And what makes you think the USG is particularly invested in that goal, or even that they should be?


DId I misattribute? Who was it that was expounding on "whom libruls hoped was behind the bombing"? The minimization of future human suffering is MY bugaboo, not yours. And my post was attempting to take into account USGs *probable* response to various bomber identities and rate their desirability according to (1). But that was pretty obvious, no?
   3177. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 17, 2013 at 06:10 PM (#4417247)
...Except when Obama is using drones to kill such people, and then suddenly the leftists become colorblind. (It was MLK's hope decades ago that everyone would stop viewing each-other through race-colored glasses, but lefties simply can't help themselves, except when it comes to Obama and drones.)

Drone killings were the functional equivalent of zero, until Obama assumed the presidency. But to lefties they happen without agency, rather like the birth of baby Jesus to a virgin.
   3178. Dale Sams Posted: April 17, 2013 at 06:11 PM (#4417248)
I can, but that's a subject for another day.


I want to note that at the time...not here, I wasn't here...a huge amount of resistance centered around "It's going to be another Vietnam" not "Wow. WTF. We're just going to up and kill a million innocent people?" I say that in the interest of preventing revisionism.
   3179. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 17, 2013 at 06:11 PM (#4417249)
I can't think of anybody here, right or left, who defends the invasion or thinks it was a good idea.


There were plenty who did at the time, absolutely.
   3180. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 17, 2013 at 06:12 PM (#4417250)
Find me some righties here who support the TSA.


There were plenty who did at the time, absolutely. The Patriot Act as well.

   3181. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: April 17, 2013 at 06:15 PM (#4417251)
Find me some righties here who support the TSA.

Speaking. (EDIT: On balance, anyway.)
   3182. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 17, 2013 at 06:28 PM (#4417255)
Find me some righties here who support the TSA.

Speaking. (EDIT: On balance, anyway.)


You monster.
   3183. Manny Coon Posted: April 17, 2013 at 06:33 PM (#4417262)
Not sure where the Westboro loonies fit on the political spectrum, but Fred Phelps is a Democrat.


Now I know who those people are from the recent poll that thought Obama was the Antichrist but voted for him anyway.
   3184. Steve Treder Posted: April 17, 2013 at 06:38 PM (#4417263)
Now I know who those people are from the recent poll that thought Obama was the Antichrist but voted for him anyway.

Well, you know what they say about the devil you know.
   3185. formerly dp Posted: April 17, 2013 at 06:41 PM (#4417267)
But to lefties they happen without agency
I guess I don't get counted as a leftist. But in any case, the drone attacks were one of the main reasons I didn't vote for Obama in 2012, and I've stated that on this board plenty of times.
==
FWIW, police are being careful to avoid calling the hooded man in the sweatshirt a suspect, as per CBS. So it appears they're very judicious in their use of the word.
   3186. Steve Treder Posted: April 17, 2013 at 06:45 PM (#4417269)
So it appears they're very judicious in their use of the word.

No, they're lying liars. Try to keep up.
   3187. Mayor Blomberg Posted: April 17, 2013 at 06:49 PM (#4417273)
FWIW, police are being careful to avoid calling the hooded man in the sweatshirt a suspect, as per CBS. So it appears they're very judicious in their use of the word.


Get Ray on it. STAT!
   3188. Lassus Posted: April 17, 2013 at 06:57 PM (#4417276)
Formerly dp is not even close to the only lefty who seems to say "drone" in his sleep. Please, everyone, try and keep up.

As far as me missing "uncomfortable" as a "more to it than that" benchmark, well, I guess I'm not as up on the Libertarian love of authority as I should be. "Uncomfortable" doesn't strike me as particularly compelling. And, it apparently wasn't.
   3189. BDC Posted: April 17, 2013 at 07:01 PM (#4417278)
I hate to defend myself over something so obvious, but Google "drone" and "BDC" here and you'll see that I let the President have it on that issue every chance I get.

I did vote for him in '12 (though sharing dp's grave reservations), on the principle that Romney would hardly be any better on drones and would be infinitely worse on almost everything else.
   3190. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 17, 2013 at 07:05 PM (#4417281)
Formerly dp is not even close to the only lefty who seems to say "drone" in his sleep.
I just said on this page. Liberals who aren't in lockstep with the President don't fit the narrative.
   3191. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 17, 2013 at 07:13 PM (#4417288)
I just said on this page. Liberals who aren't in lockstep with the President don't fit the narrative.


You guys certainly are in lock step, skipping a step when needed. You don't hold Obama in contempt for the things he does that you disagree with. You don't treat him with scorn. You just kind of shrug, maybe say a few words to slap him on the wrist, and move on. He's not thought to be a Horrible Person as are Bush and Romney et al. The people who support Obama aren't thought to be unthinking, uncaring, depraved people.
   3192. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 17, 2013 at 07:15 PM (#4417289)
I am against the drone usage by Obama and have said so from the beginning. I was always against Iraq and the TSA, and I don't care nearly as much as many people about the word suspect.

I also find Ray, GoodFace and SBB and their "lefty this" and "liberal that" to have moved well past offensive to genuinely amusing at this point. I would be offended if I thought anyone who mattered really believed it, but as it is no worries.
   3193. Steve Treder Posted: April 17, 2013 at 07:20 PM (#4417292)
I also find Ray, GoodFace and SBB and their "lefty this" and "liberal that" to have moved well past offensive to genuinely amusing at this point.

I consider it more dull than amusing, but, yeah, it's weak sauce.
   3194. formerly dp Posted: April 17, 2013 at 07:20 PM (#4417293)
Formerly dp is not even close to the only lefty who seems to say "drone" in his sleep. Please, everyone, try and keep up.
Well then. You must not be a lefty either.
I hate to defend myself over something so obvious, but Google "drone" and "BDC" here and you'll see that I let the President have it on that issue every chance I get.
BDC: Not a lefty.
I am against the drone usage by Obama and have said so from the beginning.
Bitter Mouse: Also not a lefty.
I just said on this page.
El Hombre: Kicked out of the "lefties as designated by BTF righties" club, too.

For those of you who arbitrate this sort of thing, who does that leave? Apparently, the myth of the BTF lefty cabal is simply that.
   3195. Mefisto Posted: April 17, 2013 at 07:23 PM (#4417294)
I guess I'm not a lefty either. I criticize Obama for his assassination program all the time.
   3196. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 17, 2013 at 07:27 PM (#4417298)
I can't tell you how many times I've just wandered through there at 2 am when no one was around, just looking at the Castle.
So, in lockstep unless not in lockstep.
You don't hold Obama in contempt for the things he does that you disagree with. You don't treat him with scorn.
I don't treat most people with scorn, but then again, I'm not Ray DP. I actually like human beings. I also happen to agree with Obama on quite a few things, so that works against me scorning him.
He's not thought to be a Horrible Person as are Bush and Romney et al.
I don't think they're horrible people. Most of my family voted Republican until the last few years, and still consider themselves to be conservatives. I don't have the problem with conservatives you want me to have, and certainly I don't view conservatives the way you view liberals. (Edit to add: I said back in 2007 that Romney was my kind of conservative... until he went to CPAC and disavowed everything he did in Massachusetts. So maybe Romney had a bigger problem with Romney that I did.)
The people who support Obama aren't thought to be unthinking, uncaring, depraved people.
Says the guy who thinks Obama supporters are unthinking, uncaring, depraved people. You're not without your ideological biases.
   3197. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 17, 2013 at 07:30 PM (#4417301)
I also find Ray, GoodFace and SBB and their "lefty this" and "liberal that" to have moved well past offensive to genuinely amusing at this point.


I also find the 90% ratio of lefties to non-lefties here to be amusing as well. I was never offended by it, though.

I did realize that the perceived "lefty this, liberal that" springs from it. When 90% of people are saying X, then, sure, the people disagreeing with them instead of high fiving them will seem "lefty focused."
   3198. Steve Treder Posted: April 17, 2013 at 07:30 PM (#4417302)
FWIW, I don't have a problem with drones per se. They're just one of the weapons in the arsenal. I have a big problem with the targeted assassination program, whether the weapon is a drone or an old-fashioned CIA hit man, as it's yet another element in the always-wrong-headed "war on terror" that's got counterproductivity written all over itself in bright bold letters.

But I have nothing resembling an illusion that a McCain or a Romney administration would be handling it any less foolishly, so as much as I dislike Obama's approach, it hasn't given me reason to wish that his opponents had won in 2008 or 2012. Yes, amazing though it may seem, it is possible to prefer a particular President over the realistic alternatives and not believe everything he does is peachy.
   3199. zonk Posted: April 17, 2013 at 07:31 PM (#4417303)

Drone killings were the functional equivalent of zero, until Obama assumed the presidency. But to lefties they happen without agency, rather like the birth of baby Jesus to a virgin.


This is simply not true.

The loudest and most consistent opponents of US drone policy continue to be the very same lefties who were complaining about the same sorts of things before 2008. They've been joined by a handful of people across the spectrum -- but the bulk and volume of criticism continues to come from the left.

Even among the lefties here -- they come in two flavors...

Those adamantly opposed and those conditionally uncomfortable.

I don't want to speak for anyone but myself, but I certainly do fall into the latter camp.

I have problems with US drone 'policy' (such as it is) and usage -- but I'm not inherently opposed to the use of drones to do some manner of what we're doing now. It beats invading a country.

My beef is primarily in the way I understand command and control works -- it's essentially NSA/CIA that picks the targets and decides when to shoot. Move that into the military -- which, for better or worse -- has a much better appreciation for weighting 'collateral damage' would go a long way towards that. Another step would be defining some clear guidelines about precisely who can be targeted. I'm not advocating a conviction in absentia - I'm just not comfortable with the status quo which seems to be "somebody makes a list and the President OK's the list". Guidelines in this manner don't jeopardize national security.... Right now - for all I know - getting on the list could be as simple as being in a doctored picture showing some of the small pockets of cheering in the middle east after 9/11.

Current policy is a black mark on Obama and his foreign policy/security team. I still think overall the administration has earned high marks in this area - but yes, drone policy and usage is absolutely worth a full letter grade against that total score in my book.
   3200. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 17, 2013 at 07:34 PM (#4417304)
I also find the 90% ratio of lefties to non-lefties here to be amusing as well. I was never offended by it, though.
Of course not. You like claiming victimhood.
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