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Sunday, March 31, 2013

OTP: April 2013: Daily Caller: Baseball and the GOP: To rebrand the party, think like a sports fan

This week’s GOP autopsy report, commissioned by RNC Chairman Reince Priebus, is a great start in the much-needed task of rebranding the Republican Party. As the chairman acknowledged, “the way we communicate our principles isn’t resonating widely enough” and “we have to be more inclusive.” The report contains 219 recommendations to “connect people to our principles.” To achieve that goal, the party will need a strategic vision of how voters think about politics, which is something that the report lacks. For that, the GOP can learn a lot from another American passion: baseball.

This year, about 75 million Americans will go to the baseball stadium to watch a ballgame, about the same number as those who will vote in next year’s election. We rarely think about why someone becomes a baseball fan, or why they root for a certain team. Nor do we usually think about why someone chooses to vote for a certain political party. But it’s actually a very useful exercise.

When it comes to baseball, fan loyalty has almost nothing to do with the brain, and almost everything to do with the heart. In all of history, there’s never been a baseball fan who rooted for his team because it had the lowest ticket prices, or because it had the most taxpayer-friendly stadium deal, or because its players did the most community service. For the vast majority of Americans, rooting for a baseball team — not to mention, voting for a political party — isn’t really a rational choice; it’s more of a statement of personal identity — a statement telling the world, “This is who I am.” And for most people, defining “who I am” starts with family and community, before branching out into areas like race, age, gender, and class.

Family is pretty straightforward. If your mom and dad are Yankee fans, you’re almost certainly a Yankee fan. The same is true in politics. If your mom and dad are Republicans, you’re almost certainly a Republican.

Community is also pretty straightforward. If you grew up in, say, Philadelphia, chances are pretty great you’re a Phillies fan. Likewise, someone who grew up in Republican territory like, say, suburban Dallas or rural Indiana is much more likely to become a Republican than a nearly identical person from Seattle or Santa Fe.

Cities with more than one baseball team, like New York or Chicago, show revealing breakdowns by race and gender. The racial split in Chicago between Cubs fans on the North Side and White Sox fans on the South Side is well-documented. In New York, there’s an intriguing gender gap between Mets and Yankee fans, with women gravitating a lot more to the Yanks. While there’s a few theories out there trying to explain that, one obvious answer leaps out: Yankees heartthrob Derek Jeter.

In sports, as in politics, people’s convictions can’t be conveniently reduced to who their parents are or what they look like. But those things are an important foundation, upon which more rational sentiments come into being. Once you’re attached to your team on an emotional level — seeing them as a personal reflection of who you are and what you care about most — a rational exterior comes into being through phrases like “the Red Sox are the best team because they have the most heart” or “the Republicans are the best party because they know how to create jobs.”

Tripon Posted: March 31, 2013 at 10:52 AM | 6544 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   3801. Lassus Posted: April 19, 2013 at 08:03 AM (#4419038)
In other news, my dad (not an actual communist) lives in Watertown NY, so I was a little freaked out for 10 or 15 seconds.
   3802. formerly dp Posted: April 19, 2013 at 08:06 AM (#4419039)
Communists are atheists. Who the hell are they praying to, moron?
Maybe this is why our prayers keep going unanswered.
   3803. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 08:06 AM (#4419040)
Communists are atheists. Who the hell are they praying to, moron?

You're joking, right? Chechnya is a hotbed of Islamic extermism, thanks in no small part to two decades of Russian repression.
   3804. greenback likes millwall Posted: April 19, 2013 at 08:12 AM (#4419043)
He is referring to the red diaper babies. We do not pray.
   3805. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 08:16 AM (#4419045)
He is referring to the red diaper babies. We do not pray.

Thanks. I should have reached for the caffeine first, not the keyboard.
   3806. Lassus Posted: April 19, 2013 at 08:17 AM (#4419046)
You're joking, right? Chechnya is a hotbed of Islamic extermism, thanks in no small part to two decades of Russian repression.

It was mostly to poke Joey, who I'm guessing at this point had Communist parents, as often as he spits out his favorite absolutely dead term for their misguided children.

That being said, Marxist/Leninist atheism is within the labrynth of Communist tenets, so it ain't out of nowhere, I'd have thought. I haven't really been following Chechan Islam, are they also Communists?


Thanks. I should have reached for the caffeine first, not the keyboard.

I was wondering what the poor bugs ever did to Islam.
   3807. Joey B. is being stalked by a (Gonfa) loon Posted: April 19, 2013 at 08:17 AM (#4419047)
Chechnya is a hotbed of Islamic extermism, thanks in no small part to two decades of Russian repression.

So naturally it makes perfect sense for them to sneak into America and blow up the Boston marathon. Because we're such great friends of Russia and Vladimir Putin and all that.

And the lefty idiots wonder why so many Americans detest Islam.
   3808. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: April 19, 2013 at 08:25 AM (#4419049)
FWIW, CNN was saying that brother #2 at least has been in the US for 12 years.
   3809. greenback likes millwall Posted: April 19, 2013 at 08:27 AM (#4419051)
His name is Tamerlane. That explains everything.
   3810. Publius Publicola Posted: April 19, 2013 at 08:27 AM (#4419052)
Chechens. Hmm, at least we have Putin on our side now.
   3811. SteveF Posted: April 19, 2013 at 08:29 AM (#4419055)
They graduated from Cambridge Rindge and Latin and were permanent legal residents.

Edit: Probably goes without saying that they've interviewed school chums who claimed they were very popular school athletes and are shocked by the news.
   3812. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 08:32 AM (#4419057)
I haven't really been following Chechan Islam, are they also Communists?

Actually, many in the original indepdence/autonomy movement (1990-99) preached Western values. Today it is all about religious extremism.
   3813. Publius Publicola Posted: April 19, 2013 at 08:36 AM (#4419058)
I haven't really been following Chechan Islam, are they also Communists?


Well, it's complex. Most of them are separatists with a religious/ethnic bent and who resent ethnic Russians but there is a significant portion who have latched on to the islamo-fascist movement. I would think these guys fall into the latter category because if they were simply separatists, I can't think of anything else they could have done which would help their cause less.

Edit: What Jason said too.
   3814. Rants Mulliniks Posted: April 19, 2013 at 08:40 AM (#4419060)
3745. Liver of blaspheming 'zop Posted: April 19, 2013 at 03:50 AM (#4418952)

Agreed, I'm one of the least empathetic people around


Ya don't say.
   3815. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: April 19, 2013 at 08:42 AM (#4419061)
Compare to Ray, I'm sensitive.
   3816. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 08:42 AM (#4419062)
More fodder for Ray:

Third man has been arrested. He’s being called an accomplice, not yet called a suspect, reports NPR’s Dina Temple-Raston.
   3817. Lassus Posted: April 19, 2013 at 08:50 AM (#4419068)
I can't think of anything else they could have done which would help their cause less.

We don't actually know yet they have a cause, althought they obviously could.

If they have been here a long time, have parents and friends to interview, I'll be interested to see if they are Islamist extremists as is being assumed or perhaps just following in the screwed-up teenager slaughterfest push.

Note: I will not be surprised by the former, but it will be interesting to see what comes out.
   3818. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 19, 2013 at 08:54 AM (#4419070)
Chechnya is a hotbed of Islamic extermism, thanks in no small part to two decades of Russian repression.

They're the ones that shot a bunch of schoolkids in the back after taking a school hostage a few years ago.

This is what was meant by the hope expressed upthread that the enemy was one we already know.
   3819. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: April 19, 2013 at 08:56 AM (#4419071)
And the lefty idiots wonder why so many Americans detest Islam.

Just checked in to see if any of you knuckleheads had updated news about Boston. Good to see Joey B remains a complete fucking moron.
   3820. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 08:58 AM (#4419072)
House surrounded 'Quimby and Dexter Ave' in Watertown (roads don't intersect, run parallel for a bit, but nonetheless) 'house is surrounded'

   3821. Publius Publicola Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:03 AM (#4419075)
They're the ones that shot a bunch of schoolkids in the back after taking a school hostage a few years ago.


They also took hostages in that theatre and caused all those deaths. So if they had any sympathy to begin with, they exhausted it a long time ago.
   3822. Publius Publicola Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:03 AM (#4419077)
House surrounded 'Quimby and Dexter Ave' in Watertown (roads don't intersect, run parallel for a bit, but nonetheless) 'house is surrounded'


Just going out on a limb here but they aren't going to get him alive. ####.
   3823. Rants Mulliniks Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:04 AM (#4419078)
I'm just glad I don't live in Boston, that must be hell right now. A lifelong friend of mine lives in Quincy, and he's pretty shaken.
   3824. Lassus Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:05 AM (#4419080)
Shooty, is the Objective Pipe whittled from the Trust Tree?
   3825. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:05 AM (#4419081)
He'd have to be a complete idiot to allow himself to be taken alive, and the sense I'm getting is that this guy is pretty ####### bright.
   3826. Publius Publicola Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:05 AM (#4419082)
I'm dying to hear what Putin has to say about this.
   3827. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:06 AM (#4419084)
It's very sobering that 2 guys can basically shut down a major American city like this. I honestly don't know what the answer for it is, though.
   3828. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:06 AM (#4419085)
another property in Cambridge surrounded and perimeter being established (evacuation). 'this is the beginning of the end' a declaration of a boston news reporter.
   3829. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:08 AM (#4419086)
I'm dying to hear what Putin has to say about this.

As much as he loathes us, I'd say he's enjoying it and can't wait to get that call from either Obama or Kerry. #### Putin.

Shooty, is the objective pipe whittled from the Trust Tree?

It can be, but the fruit of the Trust Tree has giant nuts and you can make a more flavorful pipe from one of its shells.
   3830. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:09 AM (#4419087)
All this talk about Watertown and the Caucusus is getting me hungry for Armenian food.
   3831. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:09 AM (#4419088)
I'm dying to hear what Putin has to say about this.

Give it some time. Putin is too busy figuring out who next to scapegoat for the Sergei Magnitsky Rule of Law Accountability Act.
   3832. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:09 AM (#4419089)


They also took hostages in that theatre and caused all those deaths. So if they had any sympathy to begin with, they exhausted it a long time ago.


I thought those deaths were caused moreso by the Russian SWAT team that was a little overzealous. Although obviously the Chechnyans 'started' it by taking a theatre hostage.
   3833. Publius Publicola Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:10 AM (#4419090)
In other news, Pervez Musharraf has been arrested. Again.

What a world.
   3834. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:12 AM (#4419091)
What a world.

At least they are going to remake Weird Science. I don't understand why terrorists want to kill us when we're killing ourselves!
   3835. Knock on any Iorg Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:12 AM (#4419092)
Boy, I sure hope they got the right guys in Boston!
   3836. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:13 AM (#4419093)
#3833, the Rothschilds and the others in the shadowy cabal of Kikes pulling the strings would get bored if they didn't kill a few people and gin up a little rebellion now and again, amirite?
   3837. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:13 AM (#4419094)
If they have been here a long time, have parents and friends to interview, I'll be interested to see if they are Islamist extremists as is being assumed or perhaps just following in the screwed-up teenager slaughterfest push.

IIRC: one or both have been here since '01; have been described as "refugees of war"; popular (or popular enough), affable kids - both athletes, bright; uncle called them bastards, said they deserved to die - but I don't know if that's only in the context of knowing what they've done. AP interviewed father (who lives in Russia) as well who called son (susp #2) "a true angel".
   3838. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:13 AM (#4419095)
Boy, I sure hope they got the right guys in Boston!

Ha! You!
   3839. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:13 AM (#4419096)
Hopefully the fact that they're "white" Muslims from an area the US has nothing to do with will lead to some honest discussion about Islamic extremism and terrorism. There isn t even a fig leaf of "justification" for this gutless act.
   3840. bunyon Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:19 AM (#4419099)
He'd have to be a complete idiot to allow himself to be taken alive, and the sense I'm getting is that this guy is pretty ####### bright.

This is sarcasm right? Right? Unless the nannied word is "not".
   3841. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:23 AM (#4419103)
Don't think this guy is very good at being a terrorist (apart from the evading capture over the last several hours part) but, he is reportedly bright.
Mother Jones noted that the dead guy had on a playlist a video on 'religious prophecy associated with Al Qaeda'.
   3842. formerly dp Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:24 AM (#4419105)
He'd have to be a complete idiot to allow himself to be taken alive,
I have a real problem trying to get inside the head of a guy like this, especially given how little we know about him and his motivations. Might decide he wants the spectacle of a trial and all that-- my assumption is that these kids are both a bit fractured in the head to do something like this, and those types don't always have the most stable wants and desires.
   3843. Pingu Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:24 AM (#4419106)
Bright enough to evade the entire weight of local, state, and national law enforcement in a very small area for something like 8 hours now.
   3844. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:27 AM (#4419109)
Hopefully the fact that they're "white" Muslims from an area the US has nothing to do with will lead to some honest discussion about Islamic extremism and terrorism. There isn t even a fig leaf of "justification" for this gutless act.


Aren't you jumping to conclusions a bit by assuming they did this because they may or may not be Islamic and may or may not be extremists? Maybe we can have an honest discussion about why you immediately think it's due to the country they have not lived in for 12 years being Islamic.
   3845. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:30 AM (#4419111)
3842: agreed.
would i surprised if they were religious extremists? no. would i be surprised if they weren't? no.
   3846. Dale Sams Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:30 AM (#4419112)
This means we can start droning A part of soverigen Russia now, right? I mean, we did declare that right.

Surely I'm not the first to say this.
   3847. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:30 AM (#4419113)
Mother Jones noted that the dead guy had on a playlist a video on 'religious prophecy associated with Al Qaeda'.

Mother Jones editors had originally thought of substituting "Pat Robertson" for "Al Qaeda," but then thought better of it.
   3848. SteveF Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:33 AM (#4419116)
Surely I'm not the first to say this.


Putin's probably already offered to roll the tanks into Chechnya, if recent history is any indication.
   3849. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:34 AM (#4419117)
by no means do i want to compare the two - but robertson has caused me (as an individual) more trouble in my life than any terror org.
[not a political statement, a personal one]
   3850. Dale Sams Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:34 AM (#4419118)
So did they really have grenades or was that just part of the recent media shitstorm?

And if they did..?..You don't just walk into the grenade store.
   3851. bunyon Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:35 AM (#4419119)
Bright enough to evade the entire weight of local, state, and national law enforcement in a very small area for something like 8 hours now.

Not bright enough to be disguised in anyway when they drop the bags. Not bright enough to have an escape from the area mapped out. Not bright enough to have cash on hand to hole up. Not bright enough to build a better bomb. Not bright enough to not get flushed out with posting of their picture.

Whatever the reason they did this, it really looks to me like they're a couple of idiots who decided to "make a statement" but aren't bright enough to either get away or gutsy enough to actually make a final stand.

If rob a convenience store is your big plan for food and money post becoming a terrorist, you aren't too bright.
   3852. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:35 AM (#4419120)
Putin's probably already offered to roll the tanks into Chechnya, if recent history is any indication.

I'm sure he has. I really hope we don't let Putin use this to gain any leverage in foreign policy. Because, once again, #### that guy.
   3853. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:37 AM (#4419123)
Aren't you jumping to conclusions a bit by assuming they did this because they may or may not be Islamic

Huh? The papers are reporting that they're Muslims. It's right in the NY Times lead story. Chechnya is a predominantly Islamic region.
   3854. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:38 AM (#4419124)
According to reports, the younger Chechen brother ran over the older one after the latter had been shot. The Shah of Iran doesn't approve.
   3855. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:39 AM (#4419125)
substituting "Pat Robertson" for "Al Qaeda,"

No offense, Jason, but this is why I don't jump in these threads. Anyway, hopefully the cops in Boston do their job and get this idiot safely. Hopefully we can remain calm and measured about the aftermath.
   3856. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:44 AM (#4419128)
Huh? The papers are reporting that they're Muslims. It's right in the NY Times lead story.


So it is, sorry, I have just been reading the short blog updates, hadn't read any detailed article about them.
   3857. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:44 AM (#4419129)
No offense taken, Shooty, but the idea that Mother Jones might be engaged in "reporting" is really funny.
   3858. Joey B. is being stalked by a (Gonfa) loon Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:44 AM (#4419130)
Aren't you jumping to conclusions a bit by assuming they did this because they may or may not be Islamic

Here's his YouTube playlist. Oh yeah, how in the world could anyone possibly jump to a conclusion like that (eyeball roll up to the ceiling).
   3859. Dale Sams Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:45 AM (#4419131)
"Bright enough"

Yeah..I was thinking, "They robbed a store? And carjacked a guy but didn't kill him? These are some shitty terrorists. They're like the Thelma and Louise of terrorists."
   3860. BDC Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:45 AM (#4419132)
You don't just walk into the grenade store

Hand grenades are a popular gun-show item. Disabled hand grenades, of course, but I imagine there's ways to re-able them.
   3861. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:46 AM (#4419133)
i'm no mother jones fan - just relaying info
   3862. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:46 AM (#4419134)
The dude's twitter is soccer and pro-gun control posts.
   3863. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:48 AM (#4419135)
I thought those deaths were caused moreso by the Russian SWAT team that was a little overzealous. Although obviously the Chechnyans 'started' it by taking a theatre hostage.


It's actually more interesting than that. The Russians pumped an unknown chemical agent into the theater's ventilation system in order to incapacitate the hostage-takers. It worked, but a large number of the hostages died as a result of a negative reaction to the gas. There was also some controversy because the Russians refused to tell the hospitals treating the hostages what gas they had used (making it hard to treat them effectively), and it's likely that some hostages died who might otherwise have been saved if more information had been available.

The most commonly accepted theory is that the gas was something called "Kolokol-1", an aerosolized synthetic opiate originally developed by the KGB - possibly a fentanyl derivative suspended in halothane. Nobody really knows for sure, though.

More info here, if you're curious.
   3864. Ron J2 Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:49 AM (#4419137)
Incidentally, those supporting Afghanistan in this thread are deluded. It was a quagmire from start to never-finish.


I think it's possible that the could have used the period of time when the Taliban had been comprehensively beaten to build something lasting. Would have been tricky. Probably odds against. Would have meant engaging the Pashtun -- something that's never been tried.

Bear in mind that I didn't precisely support the toppling of the Taliban. My take on it was that it was discretionary and potentially unnecessary.

At the time of the invasion there was an awful lot of tension between the Taliban (who had inherited them from our future allies but felt bound by cultural hospitality rules. Bin Laden was not a good guest and that was causing tension.) and it's possible (but not likely) that these could have been exploited.

It is surely worth noting that Mullah Omar's first reaction to 9-11 was along the lines of "No good Muslim could have done something like that" and his first reaction to the demand for Bin Laden was roughly, "Provide us evidence and we'll prosecute him" (the sincerity of this is legitimately questionable since it was followed in short order by, "we don't know where he is" and [roughly] the dog ate my homework")

Still, a massive "hot pursuit and stay the #### out of our way" was totally possible. We chose to topple the Taliban because it was easy and Bush and company were not given to sweating the aftermath.
   3865. bunyon Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:50 AM (#4419138)
Hand grenades are a popular gun-show item. Disabled hand grenades, of course, but I imagine there's ways to re-able them.

Yep. Which is why they're popular. The list of idiocy at gun-shows is long. I say that as a guy leaning well right of most people on gun-control issues. (most people - still a healthy population to my right as well).
   3866. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:56 AM (#4419142)
If I were betting, I'd say those "grenades" were pipebombs.
   3867. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:56 AM (#4419144)
3866 - i concur. grenades don't have fuses.
   3868. Ron J2 Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:59 AM (#4419150)
#3626 The Taliban and Al-Quaeda wre not allied at that time. The had inherited him from the folks they overthrew. Problem from their point of view is there are strong cultural hospitality strictures. (Poke around the Economist website for their story on Pashtunwalli. Some fascinating stories)

Now I'm not arguing that their refusal to hand over Bin Laden (even then it wasn't unconditional. They responded initially with a demand for evidence against Bin Laden. And if this was in good faith -- problematic to be sure -- it's an absolutely legitimate response) was not a legitimate cause for war.

They've come together on the logic of "the enemy of my enemy ..." but they were anything but friends back in the day.
   3869. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:03 AM (#4419157)
We don't actually know yet they have a cause, althought they obviously could.


From the profile, the likely cause is going to similar to the London and Madrid bombings. The older brother seems to have been radicalized (internally) Islamist, and the little brother is almost certainly going to be following his big brother's footprints. I doubt this is a global plot in any real sense; just some truly out of touch religious fanatics going off the deep end of their own accord.
   3870. Dale Sams Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:05 AM (#4419161)
So the entire city is on lockdown? Surely that isn't mandatory. He's not The Running Man ffs.

And no one has said anything about that either? CMON BBTF!! WTF.
   3871. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:07 AM (#4419163)
"Bright enough"

Yeah..I was thinking, "They robbed a store? And carjacked a guy but didn't kill him? These are some shitty terrorists. They're like the Thelma and Louise of terrorists."


This seems like an example of the difference between smart and savvy. There are lots of people who are intellectually gifted but relatively helpless when it comes to practical judgment or real-world logistics.
   3872. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:08 AM (#4419164)

So the entire city is on lockdown? Surely that isn't mandatory. He's not The Running Man ffs.


Not mandatory, but straightforward, no need to puzzle out what should close and what should stay open, easier for police to work if people aren't on the streets, and this is not something that looks to last a long time, probably be over by noon.

   3873. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:09 AM (#4419167)

From the profile, the likely cause is going to similar to the London and Madrid bombings. The older brother seems to have been radicalized (internally) Islamist, and the little brother is almost certainly going to be following his big brother's footprints. I doubt this is a global plot in any real sense; just some truly out of touch religious fanatics going off the deep end of their own accord.


Or maybe not. The character and aims of the Chechnyan movement have changed in recent years, to a broader anti-anti-Muslim bent, according to The Guardian's Moscow correspondent:

In recent years, however, the Kremlin and its regional proxies have been battling a different kind of enemy. This new generation of insurgents has an explicitly Islamist goal: to create a radical pan-Caucasian emirate ruled by Islamist law, a sort of Afghanistan under the Taliban. The movement’s leader, Doku Umarov, unveiled this ambitious vision in 2007. He vowed to liberate not only Russia’s Muslim North Caucausus but a large chunk of European Russia.

Umarov also suggested that devout Muslims should think internationally. His comments, later softened, said: “Today in Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, and Palestine our brothers are fighting. Everyone who attacks Muslims wherever they are are our enemies, common enemies. Our enemy is not Russia only, but everyone who wages war against Islam and Muslims.”

This call to global jihad may perhaps offer a possible motive for an attack inside the US. The new generation of twenty-something rebels is also exploiting a powerful new weapon: the internet. The main Chechen rebel website, kavkazcenter.com, posts reports from the jihadi movement worldwide: from Syria, where Chechen diaspora fighters are battling government forces in Aleppo, from Pakistan, and from Turkey.
   3874. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:10 AM (#4419168)
It's actually more interesting than that. The Russians pumped an unknown chemical agent into the theater's ventilation system in order to incapacitate the hostage-takers. It worked, but a large number of the hostages died as a result of a negative reaction to the gas. There was also some controversy because the Russians refused to tell the hospitals treating the hostages what gas they had used (making it hard to treat them effectively), and it's likely that some hostages died who might otherwise have been saved if more information had been available.


Yeah, I was going to point this out. The Russians killed the folks in that theater. The Chechnyans took the hostages. If ever there existed a situation where radical counterinsurgency/terrorism was a valid form of counter offensive, it was probably Chechnya. The Russians were ####### animals there. (No, this in no way justifies or minimizes the fucqtard crazy of these two/three people in Boston.)
   3875. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:11 AM (#4419169)
The announcement from the police was played on NPR and I think it was a recommendation for people to stay home; not a mandatory lockdown.
   3876. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:12 AM (#4419170)
So when is someone going to propose that they bring in Batman to deal with this Dzhokhar?

   3877. Blastin Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:12 AM (#4419172)
One of the gangsters in The Dark Knight was indeed called "The Chechen."
   3878. Blastin Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:13 AM (#4419174)
There are lots of people who are intellectually gifted but relatively helpless when it comes to practical judgment or real-world logistics.


I went to school with plenty of them.
   3879. Morty Causa Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:14 AM (#4419175)
   3880. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:16 AM (#4419178)
Quoting SBB, quoting the Guardian:

In recent years, however, the Kremlin and its regional proxies have been battling a different kind of enemy. This new generation of insurgents has an explicitly Islamist goal: to create a radical pan-Caucasian emirate ruled by Islamist law, a sort of Afghanistan under the Taliban. The movement’s leader, Doku Umarov, unveiled this ambitious vision in 2007. He vowed to liberate not only Russia’s Muslim North Caucausus but a large chunk of European Russia.

Umarov also suggested that devout Muslims should think internationally. His comments, later softened, said: “Today in Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, and Palestine our brothers are fighting. Everyone who attacks Muslims wherever they are are our enemies, common enemies. Our enemy is not Russia only, but everyone who wages war against Islam and Muslims.”

This call to global jihad may perhaps offer a possible motive for an attack inside the US. The new generation of twenty-something rebels is also exploiting a powerful new weapon: the internet. The main Chechen rebel website, kavkazcenter.com, posts reports from the jihadi movement worldwide: from Syria, where Chechen diaspora fighters are battling government forces in Aleppo, from Pakistan, and from Turkey


That's interesting. My understanding of Chechnya is a few years out of date. That said, I doubt there was a lot of material support from overseas, but the level of thought-coordination and psychological support provided via the internet, as noted in the last paragraph, is likely to be significant. This is the down side of the Aaron Swartz/all information must be free sort of utopian thinking.

Thanks for the new info.
   3881. formerly dp Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:18 AM (#4419181)
So when is someone going to propose that they bring in Batman to deal with this Dzhokhar?
Isn't Gotham kind of a long Batwing ride from Boston?
   3882. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:19 AM (#4419182)
Good local live feed.
   3883. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:19 AM (#4419183)
Yeah, I was going to point this out. The Russians killed the folks in that theater.


To be fair, I think it's extremely likely that in the event of a conventional SWAT-style breach of the theater, the Chechens would have shot as many of the hostages as possible. So it's theoretically possible that gassing the theater was the least-bad of a bad set of options (although personally I'm skeptical of that).

Either way, refusing to aid the treatment of the gassed hostages seems pretty reprehensible.
   3884. Dale Sams Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:20 AM (#4419184)
I don't know if a live feed has been previously linked, but here's one that seems pretty good.


Surreal. This really is playing out just like a Stephen King novel. Those interviews are pages writing themselves. Also right now the kid is holed up in the sewers having a 90 page discourse with his dead brother about Ka.
   3885. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:22 AM (#4419188)
Morty, thanks for linking that Post feed. Interesting discrepancy between the quotes from the father and the uncle.
   3886. formerly dp Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:23 AM (#4419191)
"President in the situation room, monitoring the situation." Seems like the most appropriate place for him to do so.
   3887. Blastin Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:25 AM (#4419193)
"President in the situation room, monitoring the situation." Seems like the most appropriate place for him to do so.


Reminds me of one of my favorite Mitch Hedberg quotes.

"I saw on HBO, they were advertising this boxing match. They said 'it's a fight to the finish.' That's a good place to end."
   3888. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:25 AM (#4419194)
Some info on the officer killed by the bombers.

Much respect to him.
   3889. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:27 AM (#4419197)
Another uncle said that he was called by the elder brother yesterday, they hadn't spoken in a few years due to some family squabble, kid asked for forgiveness (don't know if that is in regard to attacks or familial distance - maybe the latter).
   3890. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:30 AM (#4419200)
To be fair, I think it's extremely likely that in the event of a conventional SWAT-style breach of the theater, the Chechens would have shot as many of the hostages as possible. So it's theoretically possible that gassing the theater was the least-bad of a bad set of options (although personally I'm skeptical of that).

Either way, refusing to aid the treatment of the gassed hostages seems pretty reprehensible.


Agreed. There are no good guys in that situation.
   3891. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:32 AM (#4419203)
If ever there existed a situation where radical counterinsurgency/terrorism was a valid form of counter offensive, it was probably Chechnya. The Russians were ####### animals there. (No, this in no way justifies or minimizes the fucqtard crazy of these two/three people in Boston.)

Yeah, but attacking schoolkids and theatergoers is never justified.

Were the Chechens justified in attacking Russian troops, police, and government officials by any means possible; probably yes. A good model would be Michael Collins' campaign that drove the Brits out of Ireland.

But it's never justified to kill innocent civilians.
   3892. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:37 AM (#4419209)
then you would make a bad terrorist, snapper. as would i (as i agree with you ... though change kill to target).
   3893. just plain joe Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:38 AM (#4419212)
3866 - i concur. grenades don't have fuses.


Of course they do, something has to ignite the explosive. Modern grenades are armed by removing the safety pin (not with your teeth), and releasing the charging handle. This ignites the fuse which is typically set for approximately five seconds. Once the fuse is ignited there is no turning back, it is going to explode when the fuse burns down and triggers the explosive charge.
   3894. formerly dp Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:39 AM (#4419213)
But it's never justified to kill innocent civilians.
What about if they're hanging out with the terrorists you want to drone strike?
   3895. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:43 AM (#4419219)
What about if they're hanging out with the terrorists you want to drone strike?

That's a very complicated calculation. How dangerous are the terrorists? How innocent are the civilians (i.e. I don't count Bin Laden's wives as innocents)? What other alternatives are there to kill/capture the terrorists? There's no pat answer.
   3896. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:43 AM (#4419222)
3893: internal fuses though, right? not ones that are visible to the eye from a distance - like what eyewitnesses claimed to have seen, if i understand correctly.
   3897. Ron J2 Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:44 AM (#4419223)
Talking Afghanistan

I agree that just doing nothing wasn't really an option.


Yes. But there's nothing to prevent you saying roughly, "We're going after Bin Laden. Anybody who gets in our way is presumed hostile."

IE no attempt at regime change. A narrowly focused effort on Bin Laden and company. Now I'm doubtful that the local Pashtun would in fact have stayed out entirely, but if there's one thing that the early stages of the war showed it is that any given local group's loyalty could be rented. (but not bought long term) And while it wouldn't have been cheap or free of carnage it's possible that it would have worked out better for the US.
   3898. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:44 AM (#4419224)
3893: internal fuses though, right?


Correct.
   3899. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:44 AM (#4419226)
then you would make a bad terrorist, snapper. as would i (as i agree with you).

I certainly hope I would.

But it's perfectly possible to fight an insurgency w/o terrorism. Targeting the direct forces of your oppressor is far more effective, b/c it doesn't alienate the civilian population, upon whom insurgents depend for support.

   3900. formerly dp Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:46 AM (#4419228)
That's a very complicated calculation. How dangerous are the terrorists?
So it's never justified, unless it's justified by a "very complicated calculation"? The US has done a shitton of killing of innocent civilians over the past decade.
(i.e. I don't count Bin Laden's wives as innocents)?
Why not? What did they do that makes them not innocent?
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