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Sunday, March 31, 2013

OTP: April 2013: Daily Caller: Baseball and the GOP: To rebrand the party, think like a sports fan

This week’s GOP autopsy report, commissioned by RNC Chairman Reince Priebus, is a great start in the much-needed task of rebranding the Republican Party. As the chairman acknowledged, “the way we communicate our principles isn’t resonating widely enough” and “we have to be more inclusive.” The report contains 219 recommendations to “connect people to our principles.” To achieve that goal, the party will need a strategic vision of how voters think about politics, which is something that the report lacks. For that, the GOP can learn a lot from another American passion: baseball.

This year, about 75 million Americans will go to the baseball stadium to watch a ballgame, about the same number as those who will vote in next year’s election. We rarely think about why someone becomes a baseball fan, or why they root for a certain team. Nor do we usually think about why someone chooses to vote for a certain political party. But it’s actually a very useful exercise.

When it comes to baseball, fan loyalty has almost nothing to do with the brain, and almost everything to do with the heart. In all of history, there’s never been a baseball fan who rooted for his team because it had the lowest ticket prices, or because it had the most taxpayer-friendly stadium deal, or because its players did the most community service. For the vast majority of Americans, rooting for a baseball team — not to mention, voting for a political party — isn’t really a rational choice; it’s more of a statement of personal identity — a statement telling the world, “This is who I am.” And for most people, defining “who I am” starts with family and community, before branching out into areas like race, age, gender, and class.

Family is pretty straightforward. If your mom and dad are Yankee fans, you’re almost certainly a Yankee fan. The same is true in politics. If your mom and dad are Republicans, you’re almost certainly a Republican.

Community is also pretty straightforward. If you grew up in, say, Philadelphia, chances are pretty great you’re a Phillies fan. Likewise, someone who grew up in Republican territory like, say, suburban Dallas or rural Indiana is much more likely to become a Republican than a nearly identical person from Seattle or Santa Fe.

Cities with more than one baseball team, like New York or Chicago, show revealing breakdowns by race and gender. The racial split in Chicago between Cubs fans on the North Side and White Sox fans on the South Side is well-documented. In New York, there’s an intriguing gender gap between Mets and Yankee fans, with women gravitating a lot more to the Yanks. While there’s a few theories out there trying to explain that, one obvious answer leaps out: Yankees heartthrob Derek Jeter.

In sports, as in politics, people’s convictions can’t be conveniently reduced to who their parents are or what they look like. But those things are an important foundation, upon which more rational sentiments come into being. Once you’re attached to your team on an emotional level — seeing them as a personal reflection of who you are and what you care about most — a rational exterior comes into being through phrases like “the Red Sox are the best team because they have the most heart” or “the Republicans are the best party because they know how to create jobs.”

Tripon Posted: March 31, 2013 at 10:52 AM | 6544 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

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   4101. Greg K Posted: April 19, 2013 at 03:37 PM (#4419600)
So, by your logic the American Revolutionaries were terrorists and morally abhorrent up until the point where they were 1) acknowledged by some other, outside national force as a country/nation, and/or 2) won.

That's some hard core relativism, brah.

That sounds about right to me.
   4102. Steve Treder Posted: April 19, 2013 at 03:42 PM (#4419605)
They have no hesitation about killing prosecutors, judges, witnesses, whatever

Yeah, what a great "win" the War on Drugs has been in Colombia.
   4103. Joey B. has reignited his October #Natitude Posted: April 19, 2013 at 03:42 PM (#4419606)
The video of the uncle talking is pretty riveting, though he doesn't know much about the kids because of some family division.

The uncle frankly sounds like the only sane person in the entire family.
   4104. Howling John Shade Posted: April 19, 2013 at 03:43 PM (#4419607)
Wiki also says the DEA mostly left the Cali Cartel alone in exchange for actionable information about the Medellin Cartel (Escobar and company). The Cali group was generally far less confrontational. They were however pretty ambitious. Among other things, they had their own massive wiretap network setup.

Yeah, the whole story about how Escobar got taken down is crazy. Cali cartel teaming up with Colombian military and US special forces. They essentially had his wife and children as hostages in a hotel in the center of Medellin, and he was in hiding, moving constantly, but he would call his family and the US guys would try and track his cell phone. Meanwhile, the Cali Cartel was going around blowing up a lot of his houses. I recommend this book: Killing Pablo (by the Black Hawk Down guy).
   4105. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 03:44 PM (#4419608)
The uncle frankly sounds like the only sane person in the entire family.


Still, the interview came off like an SNL sketch.
   4106. JE (Jason) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 03:52 PM (#4419613)
That sounds about right to me.

Hence, the "(U)K."
   4107. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: April 19, 2013 at 03:52 PM (#4419614)
Volunteer army is a bit of a cop-out. I think all of us believe we need an army/defense of some sort. Now we can have an expectation that we're all responsible for the defense, have more of the idea that a lot of people should be serving, but for more limited terms. Less professionalism. Or we can make the armed services all professional and cut checks. We've chosen the latter.

As the chickenhawks of the Vietnam era used to say: We support our troops, but we like them even better when we don't have to join them.

Yeah, a lot of people protested the Iraq war. But I think the protests are less effective, since there's no draft. Hey, we got these gung-ho people who will go, don't need you, they want to go, what do we care what you think? If there was more of an idea that protecting the county was an obligation, and not just something you wait for someone else to do or cut a check for, maybe the protests would have more teeth.

One thing's for certain: The debates would be a lot less abstract if the children of the upper and upper middle classes were being forced to bear the consequences of their parents' decisions.

Now we had a draft for Vietnam and that war continued apace for quite some time before the protests started to have an impact. But perhaps there would be more ambivelence towards adventurism if the forces more reflected a cross section of society rather than the most gung ho.

It took awhile for those protests to have much effect for several reasons.

First, there was a much stronger tendency to trust presidential authority in those days. When we first sent regular ground troops to Vietnam in 1965, World War II was still well within living memory for most adults, and our two previous presidents had been war heroes. And of course the most recent showdown prior to Vietnam (the Cuban missile crisis) had ended in what appeared to be an unequivocal, if nerve racking, victory over the Commies, who had famously gone eye-to-eye with us and "blinked".

Second, LBJ and the Democrats were scared ####less of being branded "soft on Communism" if they showed any signs of "weakening" in their pursuit of the Commies. This meant that the leadership of the anti-war movement consisted mostly of people who were (at least at first) well outside the mainstream, and less likely to command respectful attention.

Third, the main base of the protest movement---middle class college students at largely elite universities---all had renewable student deferments, and professors cooperated by instigating grade inflation to keep the men from flunking out.

And as soon as the draft ended, pretty much so did the war protests. It sure didn't have anything to do with trusting Nixon.
   4108. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 19, 2013 at 03:55 PM (#4419617)
If what we know of the brothers is correct does this change the immigration debate? They migrated legally and seem to have been here for at least five years. The younger did well enough in school and was going to college.

I was already guessing this will doom the immigration bill, or at least the wide-reaching, non-DREAM parts of it. If it's true that the Obama administration allowed the older brother to remain in the U.S. despite being convicted of domestic violence in 2009, as per the online rumblings, the immigration bill's chances will sink even lower.
   4109. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: April 19, 2013 at 03:56 PM (#4419619)
The uncle frankly sounds like the only sane person in the entire family.


The other family members are doing a bang-up job of providing fodder for the people who will think that this was all a nefarious Federal plot. If the second brother dies or disappears then the conspiracy theories practically write themselves.
   4110. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 03:58 PM (#4419624)
Close the borders! Build a wall! Deport the illegals! No more illegal immigration! Restrict legal immigration! Mandatory deportation not self deportation!

</end Lou Dobbs>
   4111. Srul Itza Posted: April 19, 2013 at 03:58 PM (#4419625)
BTW -- Has anyone heard anything about the naked guy they showed being arrested in CNN?
   4112. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:00 PM (#4419626)
Bruins game canceled, for you strange people who watch hockey.
   4113. Steve Treder Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:00 PM (#4419628)
The other family members are doing a bang-up job of providing fodder for the people who will think that this was all a nefarious Federal plot.

If by "The other family members are doing" you mean "Any possible thing that ever happens will do", then we agree.
   4114. Steve Treder Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:01 PM (#4419629)
the naked guy they showed being arrested in CNN?

The what, now?
   4115. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:01 PM (#4419630)
</end Lou Dobbs>

I guess Lou Dobbs has a Fox Business show now, but I haven't seen him since his CNN days. Is he still a hawk on immigration or has he mellowed?

As I recall, Dobbs had the best or among the best ratings on CNN. Pushing him out the door was another stellar move by CNN management.
   4116. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:03 PM (#4419631)
BTW -- Has anyone heard anything about the naked guy they showed being arrested in CNN?


<Blank stare>
   4117. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:04 PM (#4419634)
There's a reasonable chance that this does change the immigration debate. Ann Coulter is already being, well, you know, Ann Coulter about it on Twitter. But that is a statement about how stupid the "debate" is, not on the relative merits of immigration reform.
   4118. Steve Treder Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:05 PM (#4419635)
There's a reasonable chance that this does change the immigration debate.

In what way?
   4119. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:05 PM (#4419636)
<Blank stare>


During the shoot-out/bomb throwing last night, the Boston Police had some guy get out of his car and strip naked (to make sure he didn't have an IED on him) and then sort of arrested him. But he was apparently not involved. He now has a great story to tell the grandkids, I suppose.
   4120. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:07 PM (#4419638)
then sort of arrested him. But he was apparently not involved.


Speaking for myself, I won't believe he was not involved until the Post splashes his picture across their front page.

(That was for you, Gonfalon.)
   4121. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:08 PM (#4419640)
There's a reasonable chance that this does change the immigration debate. Ann Coulter is already being, well, you know, Ann Coulter about it on Twitter. But that is a statement about how stupid the "debate" is, not on the relative merits of immigration reform.

I agree with the general sentiment, but it's more than a little shameless for liberals to insist Boston shouldn't change the immigration debate the same week they invoked the dead kids of Newtown on a non-stop basis while trying to pass the gun bill.
   4122. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:10 PM (#4419641)
I agree with the general sentiment, but it's more than a little shameless for liberals to insist Boston shouldn't change the immigration debate the same week they invoked the dead kids of Newtown on a non-stop basis while trying to pass the gun bill.


I guess liberals have finally found a crisis to waste.
   4123. Srul Itza Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:11 PM (#4419642)
They have no hesitation about killing prosecutors, judges, witnesses, whatever and that's just not that easy for them to arrange in the US.


Unless you're a Justice of the Peace convicted of stealing computer parts in Texas.
   4124. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:12 PM (#4419645)
I agree with the general sentiment, but it's more than a little shameless for liberals to insist Boston shouldn't change the immigration debate the same week they invoked the dead kids of Newtown on a non-stop basis while trying to pass the gun bill.


The Newtown shooting is directly related to gun availability and gun violence. You may disagree with the proper policy reaction to mass shootings, but mass shootings are definitively a part of gun access and gun rights law. To invoke it as part of the debate is not out of bounds.

Boston has nothing to do with the immigration debate. No one has said "we should not let eastern Europeans from the former Soviet Union immigrate legally when they're children, because they are Muslim and might be part of the 0.0001% of the world who turn into crazy bombers." The only way to turn this event into a "relevant" talking point about the immigration debate is to suddenly suggest that the immigration reform bill(s) are meant to do something other than stem undocumented immigration from Mexico.
   4125. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:16 PM (#4419646)
If what we know of the brothers is correct does this change the immigration debate?

Probably slows things down enough that people will have time to read (and debate) the bill. Passing 1,000+ page bills should be done more carefully than has been the Congressional practice of late.
   4126. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:17 PM (#4419648)
No one has said "we should not let eastern Europeans from the former Soviet Union immigrate legally when they're children, because they are Muslim and might be part of the 0.0001% of the world who turn into crazy bombers."


"no one?"

oh there are plenty of people who are all for banning entry to all skary mooselims
   4127. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:17 PM (#4419649)

I agree with the general sentiment, but it's more than a little shameless for liberals to insist Boston shouldn't change the immigration debate the same week they invoked the dead kids of Newtown on a non-stop basis while trying to pass the gun bill.


The flip side is that if 26 murders wasn't enough to justify any government action, why should 4 murders have an even greater effect?
   4128. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:18 PM (#4419651)
Boston has nothing to do with the immigration debate. No one has said "we should not let eastern Europeans from the former Soviet Union immigrate legally when they're children, because they are Muslim and might be part of the 0.0001% of the world who turn into crazy bombers." The only way to turn this event into a "relevant" talking point about the immigration debate is to suddenly suggest that the immigration reform bill(s) are meant to do something other than stem undocumented immigration from Mexico.

A lot of misdirection in here. If it turns out the older brother was deportable but was allowed to remain in the U.S. because of lax immigration enforcement, that will become part of the immigration debate and it should become part of the immigration debate.

***
The flip side is that if 26 murders wasn't enough to justify any government action, why should 4 murders have an even greater effect?

Twenty-six people were killed in Newtown and it was major national news that resulted in a flurry of new state legislation and proposed federal legislation. Meanwhile, illegal immigrants commit an average of 12 murders per day, and yet crime is an afterthought in the immigration and border debate. It's absurd.
   4129. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:21 PM (#4419652)
then sort of arrested him. But he was apparently not involved.

Speaking for myself, I won't believe he was not involved until the Post splashes his picture across their front page.

(That was for you, Gonfalon.)


Thanks! And the Post wouldn't be wrong to do so-- it's not like the naked guy has crystal balls.
   4130. JE (Jason) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:22 PM (#4419654)
The Newtown shooting is directly related to gun availability and gun violence. You may disagree with the proper policy reaction to mass shootings, but mass shootings are definitively a part of gun access and gun rights law. To invoke it as part of the debate is not out of bounds.

As has been pointed out many, many times, Sam, no gun law under serious consideration either before or after Newtown, if enacted, would have prevented that massacre.
   4131. Lassus Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:22 PM (#4419656)
but it's more than a little shameless for liberals

BINGO!
   4132. Knock on any Iorg Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:22 PM (#4419657)
Meanwhile, illegal immigrants commit an average of 12 murders per day, and yet crime is an afterthought in the immigration and border debate. It's absurd.

Because it's not terrorism, so it's not important.
   4133. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:22 PM (#4419658)
The Newtown shooting is directly related to


mental illness.

gun availability


Nope. The shooter didn't have any guns of his own, and IIRC was even denied purchase of a gun shortly before the shootings.

His mother had guns of her own, but more "gun control" would not have been prevented her from legally owning a gun, since as far as I know she had a clean record.

Finally, as I said after Newtown, and has been shown all too vividly in Boston, guns are not the only weapons capable of death and destruction, so it's silly to obsess over them from that standpoint as well.

Not that I expect any of this to finally sink in with lefties who get off on gun control as if it's Jenna Jameson. (Sorry, I don't know a lot of current porn star names. Kortney Kane.)
   4134. JE (Jason) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:23 PM (#4419659)
If what we know of the brothers is correct does this change the immigration debate?

Probably slows things down enough that people will have time to read (and debate) the bill. Passing 1,000+ page bills should be done more carefully than has been the Congressional practice of late.

This.
   4135. Ron J2 Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:24 PM (#4419660)
#4102 They've pretty much stopped killing presidential candidates and it's been years since there's been a mass hostage taking. Murder rates are way down. FARQ's not a major fact or life (and had been a major part of the whole drug business). I guess the right wing death squads are still around, but they're seemingly not active right now either.

Still wouldn't be my choice of places to live, but ... There are worse places to live and things are trending in the right direction.
   4136. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:24 PM (#4419661)
The flip side is that if 26 murders wasn't enough to justify any government action, why should 4 murders have an even greater effect?


Um. 170 people were hurt. Dozens were maimed, seriously, and lost limbs.
   4137. Ron J2 Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:26 PM (#4419664)
#4123. True, but they don't currently have the right sort of connections.
   4138. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:28 PM (#4419667)
Um. 170 people were hurt. Dozens were maimed, seriously, and lost limbs.
Over 80 people in the United States get shot and killed every day.
   4139. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:28 PM (#4419668)
Boston has nothing to do with the immigration debate.

Rather early to jump to that conclusion. There are reports that one of the suspects had a domestic violence incident that qualified him to be deported. If so, that seems to raise a legitimate issue. There's also the question as to why these guys were allowed in. Should they have been looked at more carefully? When should we grant political asylum to those with no ties to the U.S? Immigration is a complex issue, and the events in Boston probably shouldn't (and won't) drive the debate, but there may be some aspects that are affected by this tragedy.
   4140. JE (Jason) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:29 PM (#4419669)
Yeah, what a great "win" the War on Drugs has been in Colombia.

Actually, Steve, it has been a blowout win. Today Colombia is one of the hottest places to invest.

Still wouldn't be my choice of places to live

There aren't too many better places to live in South America, Ron. I know someone who moved to Bogota 18 months ago and has no regrets.
   4141. Howling John Shade Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:31 PM (#4419672)
Colombia is great. FARC still has some of the Pacific coast, but I never felt unsafe anywhere else. Beautiful, beautiful country.
   4142. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:32 PM (#4419673)
Meanwhile, illegal immigrants commit an average of 12 murders per day, and yet crime is an afterthought in the immigration and border debate. It's absurd.


It is absurd to treat Steve King (R-Crazy) as a reliable source.



   4143. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:33 PM (#4419675)
Mark Evanier:
"One suspect dead. Other suspect at large. Internet orgasmic at flow of info about them…so much there that can be twisted to advance one’s political causes. I can’t wait to hear how this all proves we need to cut taxes on the rich."
   4144. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:33 PM (#4419677)
For anyone interested in the Columbian insurgency/drug war, Andean Abyss is a great game.
   4145. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:34 PM (#4419678)
As has been pointed out many, many times, Sam, no gun law under serious consideration either before or after Newtown, if enacted, would have prevented that massacre.


Because the NRA and gun-nut lobby has such a stranglehold on DC that no serious gun law can even get through for debate. This is concern trolling of the highest magnitude, man.
   4146. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:34 PM (#4419679)
There are reports that one of the suspects had a domestic violence incident that qualified him to be deported. If so, that seems to raise a legitimate issue.


If true, you can bet Republicans will try to make as much hay with that issue as Democrats did and continue to do (Biden actually in tears the other day as he channeled his inner Boener) over Newtown.
   4147. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:35 PM (#4419680)
Nope. The shooter didn't have any guns of his own, and IIRC was even denied purchase of a gun shortly before the shootings.


Gosh, Ray. I sort of thought you'd be able to recognize the difference between the term "ownership" and "availability."
   4148. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:35 PM (#4419681)
Mark Evanier:
"One suspect dead. Other suspect at large. Internet orgasmic at flow of info about them…so much there that can be twisted to advance one’s political causes. I can’t wait to hear how this all proves we need to cut taxes on the rich."


Don't worry, Barney Frank already beat them to this issue. Quoting: "No tax cuts would have stopped this."
   4149. JE (Jason) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:36 PM (#4419682)
Because the NRA and gun-nut lobby has such a stranglehold on DC that no serious gun law can even get through for debate. This is concern trolling of the highest magnitude, man.

Last we checked, the NRA had a higher approval rating than POTUS. Funny that.
   4150. Steve Treder Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:36 PM (#4419683)
Actually, Steve, it has been a blowout win. Today Colombia is one of the hottest places to invest.

Gotta love this kind of goalpost-moving.

After all this time, STILL the #1 cocaine producer in the world. Druglords STILL have no hesitation about killing prosecutors, judges, witnesses, whatever (and if they're killing them, you better believe they're buying them as well).

But, hey, it's one of the hottest places to invest.

This is what gets classified as a "blowout win" in the Drug War.
   4151. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:36 PM (#4419684)
If true, you can bet Republicans will try to make as much hay with that issue as Democrats did and continue to do (Biden actually in tears the other day as he channeled his inner Boener) over Newtown.


Because crying over dead children is exactly the same as crying over a five minute wait for the tanning booth.
   4152. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:37 PM (#4419685)
Because the NRA and gun-nut lobby has such a stranglehold on DC that no serious gun law can even get through for debate. This is concern trolling of the highest magnitude, man.

I'm not interested in yet another long gun debate, but I'm curious to know which additional "serious gun law" would have prevented Newtown.
   4153. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:37 PM (#4419686)
Gosh, Ray. I sort of thought you'd be able to recognize the difference between the term "ownership" and "availability."


I did. It was in my next sentence, where I discussed his access to his mother's guns, which you snipped out.

How did you propose to stop his mother from getting guns, short of banning them?
   4154. Joey B. has reignited his October #Natitude Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:37 PM (#4419687)
Over 80 people in the United States get shot and die every day.

This is the classic red diaper doper baby trick of including suicides to make the gun violence problem seem a lot worse than it actually is. Cut it out with this intentionally misleading bullcrap.
   4155. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:38 PM (#4419688)
This is the classic red diaper doper baby trick of including suicides to make the gun violence problem seem a lot worse than it actually is.


Huh. In Joey's world, gun related suicides are not part of a gun violence paradigm. Joey is ####### retarded in so many different ways.
   4156. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:42 PM (#4419692)
trick of including suicides to make the gun violence problem seem a lot worse than it actually is.


Kind of like how MADD and other such groups count drunk pedestrians walking in front of cars as "alcohol related car accidents."

   4157. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:43 PM (#4419694)
Huh. In Joey's world, gun related suicides are not part of a gun violence paradigm. Joey is ####### retarded in so many different ways.

Another window into the liberal mind:

- Detaining and/or forcing treatment on the mentally ill? Not only bad, but constitutionally repugnant.

- Forcing law-abiding, non-mentally ill people to disarm because some other people are mentally ill? Great idea!
   4158. JE (Jason) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:44 PM (#4419695)
After all this time, STILL the #1 cocaine producer in the world. Druglords STILL have no hesitation about killing prosecutors, judges, witnesses, whatever (and if they're killing them, you better believe they're buying them as well).

But, hey, it's one of the hottest places to invest.

This is what gets classified as a "blowout win" in the Drug War.

Great strides have been made, Steve, but more needs to be done. However, the country is in far, far better shape than it was when President Clinton approved Plan Colombia.

Why would you turn your nose up at foreign direct investment? Do you prefer the Chavez model?
   4159. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:44 PM (#4419696)
Huh. In Joey's world, gun related suicides are not part of a gun violence paradigm. Joey is ####### retarded in so many different ways.


Gun related suicides have nothing to do with the issue unless they're murder-suicides. They only highlight that this is at its core a mental illness issue.
   4160. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:46 PM (#4419698)
- Detaining and/or forcing treatment on the mentally ill? Not only bad, but constitutionally repugnant.

- Forcing law-abiding, non-mentally ill people to disarm because some other people are mentally ill? Great idea


I suppose this is interesting in that it proves once again that you have no ability to listen to or read anything outside of your bubble and grasp the arguments at all.
   4161. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:47 PM (#4419700)
This is the classic red diaper doper baby trick of including suicides to make the gun violence problem seem a lot worse than it actually is.
Yeah, because if you ignore gun-related suicides, then nobody dies from gun violence.
   4162. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:48 PM (#4419701)
Gun related suicides have nothing to do with the issue unless they're murder-suicides.


Check the correlations between suicides and gun-friendly access states. Access to guns drive up suicide rates, because you have to be truly massively sold on the idea to rig your refrigerator to stab you in the heart.
   4163. JE (Jason) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:48 PM (#4419703)
Steve, here's an excerpt from the Financial Times article that I linked to but you probably didn't read:
So, to get a sense of how the country has changed from battle ground to bustling investor destination, you can do worse than go to Medellín. An industrial city of 3m people set amid rolling hills with a permanent springlike climate, Colombia’s second city was once known as the world’s murder capital. Drug cartel leaders such as Pablo Escobar held sway, and Medellín’s traditionally can-do but financially conservative business class was hidden by a fog of violence. At its worst in 1990, there were 6,349 homicides, equivalent to 380 deaths per 100,000 people.

Now, multinationals such as Hewlett-Packard have made Medellín their regional base. Local multilatinas such as Grupo Sura are meanwhile expanding aggressively abroad: last year, the financial services group bought Dutch insurer ING’s Latin American pension assets in a $3.7bn deal.

“Medellín is living through its best times since the violence began,” says Carlos Piedrahíta, president of Nutresa, a food company, which also has operations in Mexico, Central America and the US via its Lil’ Dutch Maid brand.

As for violence, while still high, it has dropped to a fifth of what it once was and Pablo Escobar’s grave – he was shot in 1993, fleeing across a rooftop – has become a macabre tourist attraction.
   4164. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:48 PM (#4419704)
I'm curious to know which additional "serious gun law" would have prevented Newtown.


Unless you have a time machine, you're not going to prevent Newtown. The question is preventing future mass murders. Trying to tailor a law to the specific circumstances of a single case is shortsighted. Unless all you want to do is to prevent a future massacre in Newtown, in which case the simplest thing to do is move the population.
   4165. Steve Treder Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:49 PM (#4419706)
Great strides have been made, Steve, but more needs to be done.

The resounding call to arms of the great War on Drugs (1971- ).
   4166. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:50 PM (#4419707)
I suppose this is interesting in that it proves once again that you have no ability to listen to or read anything outside of your bubble and grasp the arguments at all.

My #4157 was an accurate description of the liberal mindset when it comes to guns and mental illness, but I was mostly just humoring myself while waiting for you to describe the "serious gun law" that would have prevented Newtown.

Still waiting.
   4167. Guapo Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:51 PM (#4419708)
There are reports that one of the suspects had a domestic violence incident that qualified him to be deported. If so, that seems to raise a legitimate issue.


The Boston Globe reported that the charges were dismissed after a jury trial. I'm not an expert, but I'm doubtful that would provide a basis for deportation of a legal resident.
   4168. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:53 PM (#4419710)
Unless you have a time machine, you're not going to prevent Newtown. The question is preventing future mass murders. Trying to tailor a law to the specific circumstances of a single case is shortsighted.


Then when liberals cite to Newtown as their battle cry, they are being disingenuous.

Not exactly breaking news.

   4169. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:56 PM (#4419711)
I'm not interested in yet another long gun debate, but I'm curious to know which additional "serious gun law" would have prevented Newtown.


Any law that limited clip capacity would have seriously limited Lanza's ability to kill as many as he did.
   4170. JE (Jason) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:57 PM (#4419714)
The resounding call to arms of the great War on Drugs (1971- ).

Last I checked, cocaine is illegal in this country and nearly everywhere else. (FWIW, I wouldn't mind a healthy debate on the merits of decriminalizing certain hard drugs.) Colombia needed our help in the late 90s and thank G*d we responded.
   4171. Steve Treder Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:57 PM (#4419715)
Then when liberals

Geez, Ray, knock it off. It's too early to start drinking out here.
   4172. The Good Face Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:57 PM (#4419716)
Huh. In Joey's world, gun related suicides are not part of a gun violence paradigm.


Gun related suicides are one of the best parts of any "gun violence paradigm". You can go stand with the Save Terry Schiavo nutcases if you like, but reasonable folks think people should be allowed to take their own life.

   4173. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:58 PM (#4419717)
Then when liberals cite to Newtown as their battle cry, they are being disingenuous.
Again, this is the tobacco lobby's argument. No anti-smoking law can be shown to have prevented any specific case of lung cancer, therefore, tobacco cannot be linked to lung cancer. Hands off my cigs.
   4174. Steve Treder Posted: April 19, 2013 at 05:00 PM (#4419719)
Last I checked, cocaine is illegal in this country and nearly everywhere else.

Thus perpetually fueling the machine that is the War on Drugs.

I wouldn't mind a healthy debate on the merits of decriminalizing certain hard drugs.

Glad to hear it. You understand that decriminalizing drugs is utterly anathema to Drug War doctrine, yes?
   4175. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 19, 2013 at 05:00 PM (#4419720)
Any law that limited clip capacity would have seriously limited Lanza's ability to kill as many as he did.

Really? His targets were 6-year-olds and unarmed teachers. Were they going to overpower him while he changed magazines, or while he reached into his backpack for another handgun?

(Just so we're clear, I'm not arguing for high-capacity magazines; I'm arguing against the idea that a ban of high-capacity magazines would have prevented Newtown or reduced the death toll.)
   4176. Howling John Shade Posted: April 19, 2013 at 05:02 PM (#4419722)
As for violence, while still high, it has dropped to a fifth of what it once was and Pablo Escobar’s grave – he was shot in 1993, fleeing across a rooftop – has become a macabre tourist attraction.

Botero's painting of Escobar's death.

Also, when I was in Medellin, tourists seemed to get a big kick out of doing a line off of Escobar's head stone. Not sure which way that cuts in regards to the success of the war on drugs.
   4177. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 19, 2013 at 05:05 PM (#4419723)
Any law that limited clip capacity would have seriously limited Lanza's ability to kill as many as he did.

Really? His targets were 6-year-olds and unarmed teachers. Were they going to overpower him while he changed magazines, or while he reached into his backpack for another handgun?


Lanza shot himself when police arrived. His window of time for everything he did was less than 5 minutes.
   4178. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 19, 2013 at 05:06 PM (#4419724)
Lanza shot himself when police arrived. His window of time for everything he did was less than 5 minutes.

Changing a magazine takes maybe 5 seconds. Reaching into a backpack for another handgun takes 1 or 2 seconds.
   4179. JE (Jason) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 05:07 PM (#4419725)
Glad to hear it. You understand that decriminalizing drugs is utterly anathema to Drug War doctrine, yes?

EDIT: It depends whom you ask. IMHO, if drugs are illegal, then you fight the war.
   4180. Misirlou has S.C.M.O.D.S Posted: April 19, 2013 at 05:07 PM (#4419726)
I was already guessing this will doom the immigration bill, or at least the wide-reaching, non-DREAM parts of it. If it's true that the Obama administration allowed the older brother to remain in the U.S. despite being convicted of domestic violence in 2009, as per the online rumblings, the immigration bill's chances will sink even lower.


What was it earlier that ray said about people using a national tragedy to push political objectives?
   4181. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 05:07 PM (#4419727)
So it seems as if the two brothers didn't rob a convenience store last night. Curious.
   4182. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 19, 2013 at 05:09 PM (#4419728)
What was it earlier that ray said about people using a national tragedy to push political objectives?

A question was asked and I answered it.
   4183. Sonic Youk Posted: April 19, 2013 at 05:09 PM (#4419729)
Lindsey Graham tweeting that they shouldn't mirandize him, and should treat him as an enemy combatant.
   4184. JE (Jason) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 05:11 PM (#4419730)
Lindsey Graham tweeting that they shouldn't mirandize him, and treat him as an enemy combatant.

Lindsey Graham has an election to win in '14 so I take all of his policy thoughts with a grain of salt.
   4185. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 05:11 PM (#4419732)
What was it earlier that ray said about people using a national tragedy to push political objectives?


I'd like to take credit for the quote, but, alas, that was Rahm Emanuel.
   4186. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 05:11 PM (#4419733)
Gun related suicides have nothing to do with the issue unless they're murder-suicides.


Statistically, suicidal people with access to guns are much more likely to kill themselves than suicidal people without access to guns.
   4187. JE (Jason) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 05:12 PM (#4419734)
Botero's painting of Escobar's death.

Thanks for sharing, Darkness. I hadn't seen that.
   4188. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 19, 2013 at 05:14 PM (#4419736)
Really? His targets were 6-year-olds and unarmed teachers. Were they going to overpower him while he changed magazines, or while he reached into his backpack for another handgun?


Yes. Extra weapons add weight and bulk that extra clips and speed reloads don't. If high capacity magazines don't increase rounds fired, then high capacity magazines are pointless and no one should be terribly concerned if they are banned. (Except, of course, manufacturers and sellers of high capacity magazines and such, which is the actual people the NRA represents.)

If Adam Lanza had been limited to six round revolvers or even 10 round clips, fewer children would be dead today. Why would you want to pretend that something like high capacity clips have any purpose *other than doing what they're sold to do,* which is increase the capacity of fire in shortened time frames?

There is no legitimate civilian use or need for more than 6-10 rounds per weapon. Hell, more than 6 is stretching the need. There is no self-defense scenario or hunting scenario where even a 10 round magazine is needed. And eliminating those military grade options from the civilian market would have prevented Lanza from his fire rate, in turn saving lives.
   4189. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 05:15 PM (#4419737)
Statistically, suicidal people with access to guns are much more likely to kill themselves than suicidal people without access to guns.


Who cares? That's not part of this issue.
   4190. Misirlou has S.C.M.O.D.S Posted: April 19, 2013 at 05:15 PM (#4419738)
I'm curious to know which additional "serious gun law" would have prevented Newtown.


Prevented? No. Mitigated? Certainly. Why does absolute perfection have to be the standard? I'd rather have 0 dead, but if all I can get passed is 12 dead, well, that's better than 26.
   4191. Dale Sams Posted: April 19, 2013 at 05:15 PM (#4419739)
So it seems as if the two brothers didn't rob a convenience store last night. Curious.


I'm confused by a lot of this. Where's their original car? Did they carjack the guy just to get money from him? Where did all these weapons come from? The K9s really couldn't track him after he ditched the van and went on foot? Mythbusters would have you believe that they are incredible.

   4192. The Good Face Posted: April 19, 2013 at 05:16 PM (#4419740)
Any law that limited clip capacity would have seriously limited Lanza's ability to kill as many as he did.


They're magazines, not clips. Unless Lanza was using an antique Mauser C96 (the base design of Han Solo's blaster), semiautomatic handguns don't use clips.

And no, such a law really wouldn't have. It only takes a second or two to drop the empty magazine and insert a full one. That might be material if Lanza was in a firefight against armed, trained opponents. Wouldn't have made a bit of different when shooting terrified, unarmed teachers and a bunch of 6 year old children.

   4193. Steve Treder Posted: April 19, 2013 at 05:16 PM (#4419741)
Who cares?

Humans.

An exotic concept, I know.
   4194. Misirlou has S.C.M.O.D.S Posted: April 19, 2013 at 05:17 PM (#4419742)
How did you propose to stop his mother from getting guns, short of banning them?


I propose not allowing his mother to buy assault rifles with high capacity magazines. If all the Newtown shooter had was a bolt action rifle, I suspect far fewer than 26 would have died.
   4195. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 05:20 PM (#4419743)
I propose not allowing his mother to buy assault rifles with high capacity magazines. If all the Newtown shooter had was a bolt action rifle, I suspect far fewer than 26 would have died.


Most of the 26 were children, not armed adults or LEOs. Nobody else in that school was armed. As evidenced by the teachers who tried to intervene and were gunned down.
   4196. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 19, 2013 at 05:22 PM (#4419744)
I propose not allowing his mother to buy assault rifles with high capacity magazines. If all the Newtown shooter had was a bolt action rifle, I suspect far fewer than 26 would have died.

He didn't have an "assault rifle," and your second sentence sounds like you want a ban on (and confiscation of) semiautomatic handguns, which is absurd.
   4197. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 19, 2013 at 05:25 PM (#4419746)
"Less than 5 minutes" begins with Adam Lanza outside the school and ends with him dead. He fired 155 shots in less than 300 seconds.
   4198. The Good Face Posted: April 19, 2013 at 05:25 PM (#4419747)
Who cares?

Humans.

An exotic concept, I know.


Humans also care about stopping abortions. They'll be thrilled to know they have your support!
   4199. Dale Sams Posted: April 19, 2013 at 05:25 PM (#4419748)
What is the logical fallacy "It's just a game" called? maybe there isn't one....but I want to point out that we ALL know, baseball isn't 'just a game'. C'mon. C'MON!!
   4200. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 19, 2013 at 05:29 PM (#4419749)
"Less than 5 minutes" begins with Adam Lanza outside the school and ends with him dead. He fired 155 shots, or one every two seconds.

Yes, and the need for him to reach into a backpack four or five times wouldn't have changed those numbers very much.

Again, there's an argument to be made against high-capacity magazines, but it's pure speculation that such a ban would have reduced the Newtown casualty number by even one, and it's specious for politicians and activists to be claiming that some additional law could have prevented Newtown.
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