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Sunday, March 31, 2013

OTP: April 2013: Daily Caller: Baseball and the GOP: To rebrand the party, think like a sports fan

This week’s GOP autopsy report, commissioned by RNC Chairman Reince Priebus, is a great start in the much-needed task of rebranding the Republican Party. As the chairman acknowledged, “the way we communicate our principles isn’t resonating widely enough” and “we have to be more inclusive.” The report contains 219 recommendations to “connect people to our principles.” To achieve that goal, the party will need a strategic vision of how voters think about politics, which is something that the report lacks. For that, the GOP can learn a lot from another American passion: baseball.

This year, about 75 million Americans will go to the baseball stadium to watch a ballgame, about the same number as those who will vote in next year’s election. We rarely think about why someone becomes a baseball fan, or why they root for a certain team. Nor do we usually think about why someone chooses to vote for a certain political party. But it’s actually a very useful exercise.

When it comes to baseball, fan loyalty has almost nothing to do with the brain, and almost everything to do with the heart. In all of history, there’s never been a baseball fan who rooted for his team because it had the lowest ticket prices, or because it had the most taxpayer-friendly stadium deal, or because its players did the most community service. For the vast majority of Americans, rooting for a baseball team — not to mention, voting for a political party — isn’t really a rational choice; it’s more of a statement of personal identity — a statement telling the world, “This is who I am.” And for most people, defining “who I am” starts with family and community, before branching out into areas like race, age, gender, and class.

Family is pretty straightforward. If your mom and dad are Yankee fans, you’re almost certainly a Yankee fan. The same is true in politics. If your mom and dad are Republicans, you’re almost certainly a Republican.

Community is also pretty straightforward. If you grew up in, say, Philadelphia, chances are pretty great you’re a Phillies fan. Likewise, someone who grew up in Republican territory like, say, suburban Dallas or rural Indiana is much more likely to become a Republican than a nearly identical person from Seattle or Santa Fe.

Cities with more than one baseball team, like New York or Chicago, show revealing breakdowns by race and gender. The racial split in Chicago between Cubs fans on the North Side and White Sox fans on the South Side is well-documented. In New York, there’s an intriguing gender gap between Mets and Yankee fans, with women gravitating a lot more to the Yanks. While there’s a few theories out there trying to explain that, one obvious answer leaps out: Yankees heartthrob Derek Jeter.

In sports, as in politics, people’s convictions can’t be conveniently reduced to who their parents are or what they look like. But those things are an important foundation, upon which more rational sentiments come into being. Once you’re attached to your team on an emotional level — seeing them as a personal reflection of who you are and what you care about most — a rational exterior comes into being through phrases like “the Red Sox are the best team because they have the most heart” or “the Republicans are the best party because they know how to create jobs.”

Tripon Posted: March 31, 2013 at 10:52 AM | 6544 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   4301. Mike A Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:51 PM (#4420056)
The DA just said Tsarnaev is in 'serious' condition, which seems to at least indicate he will live.

And yeah, I can't believe the guy just looked under the tarp. Very lucky he didn't get shot.
   4302. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:52 PM (#4420057)
Listening to these reporters questions during the current new conference is just bewildering.

I mean, they're asking leading questions about things that I know were directly addressed at this afternoon's press conference.

Not to mention asking dumb ####### bullshit premature utterly irrelevant questions like ... "will you seek the death penalty???"

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH.
   4303. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:53 PM (#4420058)
Stupid ####### Reporter: "Chief, is there a *chance* that the suspect you have will die from his wounds???"

::facepalm::

   4304. Steve Treder Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:54 PM (#4420059)
And yeah, I can't believe the guy just looked under the tarp. Very lucky he didn't get shot.

Who the hell knows what any of us would do under such bizarre circumstances, but I sure as hell hope I would elect caution ahead of curiosity.
   4305. SteveF Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:55 PM (#4420061)
The court has become much less bound by precedent.


Perhaps so. The court has gotten fairly political the last 20-30 years. (By political, I mean guided more by political ideologies than legal/procedural ones. The decisions are always political to one degree or another.)

Even so, the practical approach to take here is local regulation. You can't ban ownership, but states and local government can still increase the amount of regulation to chip away at second amendment rights. Essentially, you take a page out of the anti-abortion playbook.
   4306. Guapo Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:56 PM (#4420062)
Major props to the Obama administration for catching these guys so quickly. We've seen a big, big improvement in the ability to catch these guys quickly and efficiently under Obama.
   4307. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:58 PM (#4420064)
Major props to the Obama administration for catching these guys so quickly. We've seen a big, big improvement in the ability to catch these guys quickly and efficiently under Obama


Well done to the FBI and local law enforcement (and maybe the State Department, depending on what role they played in ID'ing these shitheads).

I'm not touching the rest of that ...
   4308. tshipman Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:58 PM (#4420065)
Major props to the Obama administration for catching these guys so quickly. We've seen a big, big improvement in the ability to catch these guys quickly and efficiently under Obama.


? How long did it take to catch Timothy McVeigh? I don't think this is an O administration thing so much as a modernization/technology thing.


Even so, the practical approach to take here is local regulation. You can't ban ownership, but states and local government can still increase the amount of regulation to chip away at second amendment rights. Essentially, you take a page out of the anti-abortion playbook.


States/municipalities have basically been doing this. That is what led to Heller. CA has an assault weapons ban, for instance, but interstate borders are leaky. It causes problems.
   4309. Dale Sams Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:00 PM (#4420068)
The guy who owned the boat went over and looked under the tarp? Big, big ones.


I told you all this guy had to be hiding in some random spot that Joe National Guardsman just walked past.

"Hmmm...a ladder up to a boat and blood on the shed...NAHHHHHHH"

Edit: Apparently this was outside the 20 block radius.
   4310. SteveF Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:01 PM (#4420071)
It causes problems.


It may cause problems, but it's actually possible. If you can't get expanded background checks through the Senate, what's the likelihood of getting a blanket handgun ban through? You wouldn't even need a filibuster to kill that.

You and I will be dead 50 years before that happens.
   4311. Forsch 10 From Navarone (Dayn) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:07 PM (#4420073)
Can you imagine being that kid's family? He's missing for weeks, then identified as a terrorist, then, nope, missing again. Unreal.

Was just thinking about these poor people. Imagine that circumstances are such that you're relieved that your son and brother is still missing and almost certainly dead.
   4312. Steve Treder Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:10 PM (#4420074)
Edit: Apparently this was outside the 20 block radius.

No sh!t, Sherlock.
   4313. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:10 PM (#4420076)
This Obama presser is staggeringly awful as well ...
   4314. Rennie's Tenet Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:12 PM (#4420077)
Guy who lifted the tarp is apparently coming on with Greta van Sustern.

Edit: No, it's his son.
   4315. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:17 PM (#4420081)
Oh, good ... this isn't anything until the government decides it's the perfect situation to further erode the rights of its citizens ... Miranda rights??? You've got no right to Miranda Rights.
   4316. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:17 PM (#4420082)
Apparently this was outside the 20 block radius.

Seems like some search effort should have been directed outside the initial perimeter a little earlier. But all's well that ends well.
   4317. Rennie's Tenet Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:18 PM (#4420083)
Old man had to put a stepladder up to the boat to look in it -- after he saw blood outside.
   4318. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:18 PM (#4420084)
Even so, the practical approach to take here is local regulation. You can't ban ownership, but states and local government can still increase the amount of regulation to chip away at second amendment rights. Essentially, you take a page out of the anti-abortion playbook.
And really, that's all I want.
You and I will be dead 50 years before that happens.
More like centuries.
   4319. Lassus Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:19 PM (#4420085)
Who the hell knows what any of us would do under such bizarre circumstances

Ping driver swung at the tarp 15 or 20 times.

Then the 5-wood.

OK, who knows. But that's about as close as I can imagine.
   4320. Srul Itza Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:22 PM (#4420087)
I don't know why every body is so happy he was taken alive.

There is nothing he has to say that I need to hear.

There is nothing that could come out of his mouth that anyone should give any credence to.

If he dies from his wounds, from loss of blood, from septic shock in the hospital, I will count the lost opportunity of listening to him defend the indefensible, against what the coming trial, appeals and imprisonment will cost us, and the endless blathering that will accompany it.

Somebody please mismatch the blood type, or shoot an air bubble into his IV, and have done with him.
   4321. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:26 PM (#4420088)
Because its the exact opposite of the drone situation. It's US soil, its a crime, he should be brought to justice through the judicial system, not wink-nudge executed on sight.
   4322. Morty Causa Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:27 PM (#4420089)
Has it been definitively concluded that no one else was involved in the bombings? That they do not represent some organization? That they weren't put up to it by some one or some group?

Those are a couple of reasons he should be taken alive.
   4323. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:28 PM (#4420090)
Has it been definitively concluded that no one else was involved in the bombings? That they do not represent some organization?

Those are a couple of reasons he should be taken alive.


Exactly. You need to find out if he is part of a bigger cell.
   4324. Steve Treder Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:30 PM (#4420093)
Has it been definitively concluded that no one else was involved in the bombings? That they do not represent some organization?

Those are a couple of reasons he should be taken alive.


Exactly. You need to find out if he is part of a bigger cell.

Fully agreed, and fully agreed.
   4325. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:32 PM (#4420094)
Also, let's face it -- the whole "lived in the U.S. 10 years (or however long) & apparently was a pretty OK guy, athlete, etc." background does raise more than the usual questions about just how he went off the rails, does it not?
   4326. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:33 PM (#4420097)
Also, let's face it -- the whole "lived in the U.S. 10 years (or however long) & apparently was a pretty OK guy, athelete, etc." background doesraise questions about just how he went off the rails, does it not?

I give that kind of commentary no credence. All the neighbors said how nice a guy Ted Bundy and Jeffery Dahmer were too.
   4327. Steve Treder Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:35 PM (#4420098)
Also, let's face it -- the whole "lived in the U.S. 10 years (or however long) & apparently was a pretty OK guy, athlete, etc." background does raise more than the usual questions about just how he went off the rails, does it not?

Who TF knows? The investigation will reveal what it reveals.
   4328. Dale Sams Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:36 PM (#4420099)
Ugh, the frat/hacky-sack/we won the WS cheering is disturbing, but the jingoistic catch phrases from officials is downright nauseating. Maybe we can make every team in MLB play "Tessie" in place of GBA to commemorate this 'great' moment.
   4329. NTNgod Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:36 PM (#4420101)
All the neighbors said how nice a guy Ted Bundy and Jeffery Dahmer were too
Don't forget Gacy, either!

Flipping channels, CBS just re-aired the one uncle's interview. It sounded like a promo by the Iron Shiek, complete with angry over-enunciation :)
   4330. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:37 PM (#4420102)
Bundy & Dahmer weren't 19 when their crimes were committed, though (or maybe they were, or not much older than that; I know they weren't very old when they died). Maybe the guy was a flat-out sociopath. Hell if I know.
   4331. Morty Causa Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:38 PM (#4420103)
Also, let's face it -- the whole "lived in the U.S. 10 years (or however long) & apparently was a pretty OK guy, athlete, etc." background does raise more than the usual questions about just how he went off the rails, does it not?


Yes, of course. We would like to learn about what happened to those guys' psyches.

If he is dangerous, kill him, just like with the Bin Laden deal, but if you can take him alive, you do, for a whole host of reasons, not the least of which are the victims and the family of victims might have a change to spit in his face in open court some day. In a way, the procedure and processes of our system will be shown to trump an invidious creed and worldview (assuming that's what they were creatures of).
   4332. Rennie's Tenet Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:40 PM (#4420105)
Also, let's face it -- the whole "lived in the U.S. 10 years (or however long) & apparently was a pretty OK guy, athlete, etc." background does raise more than the usual questions about just how he went off the rails, does it not?


Complete speculation: you might have a dynamic here similar to the DC snipers Muhammed and Malvo. The younger brother may have been very under the influence of the elder.
   4333. Dale Sams Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:42 PM (#4420106)
Edit: Apparently this was outside the 20 block radius.

No sh!t, Sherlock.


(Fry look)

So lets say you or I lived right outside the 20 block radius. And we've been locked up in out house all day because 'they' told us to. #### man, even if their was no blood or ladder to give any hints...I would:

1) want to check my shed/garage/boat myself since no one has been along to do it for me. And

2) I'd be scared shitless to do so.
   4334. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:45 PM (#4420110)
Complete speculation: you might have a dynamic here similar to the DC snipers Muhammed and Malvo. The younger brother may have been very under the influence of the elder.


I've seen that possibility raised as well. Of course, any defense attorney worth a damn will probably try to argue that, whether it's remotely true or not, since the older brother isn't around to testify otherwise.
   4335. spike Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:46 PM (#4420111)
So is this the day that crowd-sourced news went mainstream? Seems like the twitterers/aggregators/scanner-listeners were way ahead of the networks the whole time, as well as generally more accurate, and faster to correct the bad info out there. I watched no broadcast coverage at all.
   4336. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:48 PM (#4420113)
Unfortunately, I think that's the case.

Older brother, who was already a teenager when he came over, couldn't fit in and slowly turned radical ...

Younger brother, who would have been okay otherwise, slowly turned by the elder brother he idolized ...

Sad and horrible and terrible ...
   4337. Steve Treder Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:49 PM (#4420114)
1) want to check my shed/garage/boat myself since no one has been along to do it for me. And

2) I'd be scared shitless to do so.


Yes. No one disagrees.

It's the whole, "I told you all this guy had to be hiding in some random spot that Joe National Guardsman just walked past" play of yours that's rendered silly by your belated comprehension that, ya know what, the perp had slipped the search perimeter.
   4338. Dale Sams Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:51 PM (#4420116)
So is this the day that crowd-sourced news went mainstream?


It's also the day where shutting down a city became 'a thing'. Except somewhere along the way, it will become mandatory...and people will cheer about it and proclaim, "I'm willing to sacrifice some liberty...etc..etc..." even if that means being pulled out of my house at gunpoint, discovering the police in my basement, or yanked out of my car and stripped naked by the FBI. USA USA USA!

And someone will come on TV and say, "The American mindset had better get used to this, because like the War on Drugs, the War on Terror WILL NEVER STOP"
   4339. Sonic Youk Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:58 PM (#4420124)
It's also the day where shutting down a city became 'a thing'. Except somewhere along the way, it will become mandatory...and people will cheer about it and proclaim, "I'm willing to sacrifice some liberty...etc..etc..."
Is this something the cops actually enforced, or were they just asking people to help them out?
   4340. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:58 PM (#4420125)
Oh, good ... this isn't anything until the government decides it's the perfect situation to further erode the rights of its citizens ... Miranda rights??? You've got no right to Miranda Rights.

He was just naturalized in September. He's barely a citizen anyway. (Ha ha.)

***
Has it been definitively concluded that no one else was involved in the bombings? That they do not represent some organization? That they weren't put up to it by some one or some group?

There was a story earlier that three other people were taken into custody after an apartment was searched. Was that debunked?

EDIT: No, seems legit.
   4341. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 19, 2013 at 11:04 PM (#4420128)
Seems like the twitterers/aggregators/scanner-listeners were way ahead of the networks the whole time, as well as generally more accurate, and faster to correct the bad info out there.

The online monitors and twitterverse were the ones who announced two incorrect identities for the suspects, announced the death of the second policeman, announced that the runaway suspect had set off motion sensors, announced controlled explosions that didn't happen, tracked the "third suspect," etc.

By last night, the networks were so gun-shy following the shit performance of CNN, the New York Post, etc. that they were lathering on the caveats and reluctance to suggest connections long after such caution was unneeded.
   4342. Monty Predicts a Padres-Mariners WS in 2016 Posted: April 19, 2013 at 11:06 PM (#4420130)
Seems like the twitterers/aggregators/scanner-listeners were way ahead of the networks the whole time, as well as generally more accurate, and faster to correct the bad info out there


I don't know that they were more accurate, given the Sunil Tripathi thing. <a >The Atlantic</a> has a good rundown of that whole boondoggle.

And Reddit threw a lot of man-hours atttempting to dissect all the pictures, but all that Zaprudering turned up nothing useful.
   4343. Dale Sams Posted: April 19, 2013 at 11:06 PM (#4420131)
Is this something the cops actually enforced, or were they just asking people to help them out?


I read that the police told people at bus stops or so on to go home. There's also the common sense thought that you just know there had to be *some* police telling people to get off the streets. ####, police do stuff like that under normal conditions.

Also of concern, I asked some people what they would think If a situation such as this developed in our town, and I decided to bike around the town and take some pictures...generally the hypothetical sentiment towards me was, "Don't be an #######, just follow orders and stay inside." Well. Okay. This isn't something I'm going to march in the streets about...but I do find it a little disturbing.
   4344. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 11:07 PM (#4420132)
How long did it take to catch Timothy McVeigh?


Later the same day (18 years ago today) McVeigh was pulled over (routine traffic stop) w/o a license plate. IIRC he was carrying a sidearm (illegally).
   4345. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 11:10 PM (#4420134)
Later the same day (18 years ago today) McVeigh was pulled over (routine traffic stop) w/o a license plate. IIRC he was carrying a sidearm (illegally).


According to Wikipedia (not necessarily definitive, of course), he'd been in jail something like three days before they discovered he was the subject of a nationwide manhunt.
   4346. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 11:16 PM (#4420139)
Kudos to BPD for bringing this guy in alive. I'm sure a lot of cowboy departments would have blown him the hell up.


If I'm remembering my Die Hard right, I doubt the BPD were calling the shots here, given that the feds were involved.
   4347. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 11:17 PM (#4420140)
Major props to the Obama administration for catching these guys so quickly. We've seen a big, big improvement in the ability to catch these guys quickly and efficiently under Obama.


Trolling is trolling. Bait not taken.
   4348. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 11:20 PM (#4420143)
Yeah, McVeigh had scant evidence in his car and on his person, a business card of a military surplus store and an envelope which did contained excerpts of the "Turner Diaries'. I also seem to recall his original bail hearing got delayed due to some really silly reason about the judge not being available (flat tire or something like that). Otherwise, it is possible McVeigh wouldve been charged with the simple illegal possession of a firearm, I think the car was known to be stolen, so a charge of OWOC and then he walks on bail (assuming he posts).
   4349. Dale Sams Posted: April 19, 2013 at 11:21 PM (#4420144)
If I'm remembering my Die Hard right, I doubt the BPD were calling the shots here, given that the feds were involved.


I'm still wondering how 200 shots can be exchanged without disabling a vehicle (last night) and how with SWAT teams involved, you have an hour long firefight* with a guy and no one killed.

*Least that's what was said about today.
   4350. tshipman Posted: April 19, 2013 at 11:24 PM (#4420150)
I'm still wondering how 200 shots can be exchanged without disabling a vehicle (last night) and how with SWAT teams involved, you have an hour long firefight* with a guy and no one killed.


Imperial Stormtroopers were prominently involved.
   4351. Steve Treder Posted: April 19, 2013 at 11:25 PM (#4420151)
I'm still wondering how 200 shots can be exchanged without disabling a vehicle (last night) and how with SWAT teams involved, you have an hour long firefight* with a guy and no one killed.

*Least that's what was said about today.


I think we can quite safely consider the details presented by the media today as, well, subject to meaningful factual adjustment.
   4352. spike Posted: April 19, 2013 at 11:35 PM (#4420154)
I don't know that they were more accurate, given the Sunil Tripathi thing

I saw it challenged almost immediately and in such a way that made me very skeptical of it's veracity. To be sure, I'd never go on a single data point - but it seemed like if you kept your bullshit meter on high, and tried to stick to just the evolution of events on the ground, it was pretty easy to filter through the crap quickly and stay well-informed.
   4353. Dale Sams Posted: April 19, 2013 at 11:43 PM (#4420157)
Why do I get the feeling that the muted, respectful solemn air at tomorrow's Red Sox game will be more akin to "Can You Hear the People Sing!"
   4354. Srul Itza Posted: April 19, 2013 at 11:44 PM (#4420158)
Yes, of course. We would like to learn about what happened to those guys' psyches.


We have been talking to these monsters for years. It hasn't helped. All we learn is that crazy, vicious people are crazy and vicious.



Exactly. You need to find out if he is part of a bigger cell.


We will learn nothing of value. Watch.
   4355. Steve Treder Posted: April 19, 2013 at 11:48 PM (#4420160)
We will learn nothing of value. Watch.

Your cynicsm is duly noted. The rest of us will continue to find value in information.
   4356. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 20, 2013 at 12:02 AM (#4420162)
We have been talking to these monsters for years. It hasn't helped. All we learn is that crazy, vicious people are crazy and vicious.

Now, now. Not all of BBTF's liberals are hopeless.
   4357. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: April 20, 2013 at 12:17 AM (#4420171)
If he dies from his wounds, from loss of blood, from septic shock in the hospital, I will count the lost opportunity of listening to him defend the indefensible, against what the coming trial, appeals and imprisonment will cost us, and the endless blathering that will accompany it.


...

Of course, any defense attorney worth a damn will probably try to argue that, whether it's remotely true or not, since the older brother isn't around to testify otherwise.

As a criminal-defense true believer and nerd, I weirdly envy his eventual legal team.
I hope he gets appointed a great crew, and that they do an outstanding job. They'll probably lose, but that's not really the point.
   4358. spike Posted: April 20, 2013 at 12:22 AM (#4420175)
Imperial Stormtroopers were prominently involved.

Indeed. Sandpeople always ride single file to hide their strength and numbers.
   4359. OCF Posted: April 20, 2013 at 12:40 AM (#4420181)
I would be interested in knowing which of the following cases creates the closest parallel to these guys:
Nidal Hasan (Ft. Hood)
Muhammad/Malvo (D.C. snipers)
Klebold/Harris (Columbine)
None of these.

Best he should live. And I want him interrogated. Interrogation doesn't mean sleep deprivation or water torture or any crazy Jack Bauer crap. Just a smart and patient cop or FBI agent talking to him, in a small room with a tape recorder or videocamera running. And keeping after him for as long as it takes. If taking the death penalty off the table early on would help the process, then by all means take it off the table. And after he's been shipped off to ADX Florence, go talk to him again every couple of years.
   4360. Dale Sams Posted: April 20, 2013 at 12:56 AM (#4420185)
I would be interested in knowing which of the following cases creates the closest parallel to these guys:
Nidal Hasan (Ft. Hood)
Muhammad/Malvo (D.C. snipers)
Klebold/Harris (Columbine)
None of these.


Lee Harvey Oswald.

And I don't believe there is a death penalty in Mass.
   4361. Tilden Katz Posted: April 20, 2013 at 12:59 AM (#4420186)
Eric Rudolph.
   4362. OCF Posted: April 20, 2013 at 01:08 AM (#4420190)
And I don't believe there is a death penalty in Mass.

Jurisdiction is an issue. The FBI was all over the investigation and search; I have to assume that part of the theory behind that was that there was a federal crime involved somehow. They convicted McVeigh and Nichols of federal crimes, I think on the theory that they murdered federal law enforcement agents who were performing their duties. They don't have that exact charge here, but I think there are probably some other things they can bring to bear (which is why I said ADX Florence instead of a Massachusetts prison.)
   4363. Dale Sams Posted: April 20, 2013 at 01:18 AM (#4420193)
They don't have that exact charge here, but I think there are probably some other things they can bring to bear (which is why I said ADX Florence instead of a Massachusetts prison.)



But really, I think a competent council will play the 'brainwashed younger brother angle', also keep a close eye on how long this 'no Miranda thing' lasts. I'll bet a really good lawyer could get him something less than life without parole even.

Everything I'm reading is saying simple first-degree murder is a federal crime. How is it determined whether the state or the feds prosecute.
   4364. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: April 20, 2013 at 01:35 AM (#4420196)
Everything I'm reading is saying simple first-degree murder is a federal crime. How is it determined whether the state or the feds prosecute.

Right, federal or state prosecution is determined by jurisdiction.
There is a federal murder statute, but what's the federal-law connection to THIS case? Was there a bank or some known federal official nearby?
Or can they apply some vague / overbroad "terrorism" statute?
   4365. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 20, 2013 at 02:15 AM (#4420203)
The federal anti-terrorism statutes should cover this without much of an argument. It's the "worst of the worst" type of crime for which there is widespread support for the death penalty,too. Not sure the "misguided youth" defense will work that well, either. This is the guy that placed the bomb next to an 8-year old child.
   4366. SteveF Posted: April 20, 2013 at 02:20 AM (#4420205)
Manufacturing/transporting explosives without a license is a federal crime that carries with it a potential death penalty if someone dies as a result.

You can get federal jurisdiction for terrorism a number of ways. For instance, the explosion occurred near a mailbox right? Federal property was damaged, ergo federal jurisdiction. If they received any training outside of Massachusetts to commit the offense, then there's federal jurisdiction. If they purchased bomb parts out of state or received them through the mail, then there's federal jurisdiction.

There's probably plenty more ways to get federal jurisdiction. These are just from a cursory glance at some statutes.
   4367. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: April 20, 2013 at 04:51 AM (#4420210)
I am not even close to a lawyer, but wouldn't bombing an event that draws people from across state lines easily be enough? Not to mention national security, etc?

EDIT: Or the stuff that other people said. I should really read these threads through before posting.
   4368. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 20, 2013 at 08:11 AM (#4420224)
It's also the day where shutting down a city became 'a thing'. Except somewhere along the way, it will become mandatory...and people will cheer about it and proclaim, "I'm willing to sacrifice some liberty...etc..etc..." even if that means being pulled out of my house at gunpoint, discovering the police in my basement, or yanked out of my car and stripped naked by the FBI. USA USA USA!

And someone will come on TV and say, "The American mindset had better get used to this, because like the War on Drugs, the War on Terror WILL NEVER STOP"


Co-signed, and if I could co-sign twice I would.

Look, it's not just that the lockdown and all the reaction evinces a narcissistic, pussified society, but it's also counterproductive. If these jagoffs know that they'll be able to put a major city into lockdown, it will just encourage these kinds of bombing and violence.

It's simply absurd that the search for one 19 year old guy put Boston into lockdown.(*) Yeah, he might have been "armed and dangerous," and may have set other bombs, yadda yadda, but you could say that about a lot of murderers on the run.

(*) And you have to think that the day will come when it's seen as such, right?
   4369. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 20, 2013 at 08:17 AM (#4420225)
I'm at a loss to see how "brainwashed younger brother" helps him. He will fit the elements of the crimes, including intent and premeditation.
   4370. Morty Causa Posted: April 20, 2013 at 08:33 AM (#4420228)
Authorities and law enforcement didn't know if he was the only one involved left. They didn't know if there were (or are) undetonated bombs about. It was evident that the bombers were in a war mentality mode when they executed the MIT campus policeman and shot the metro policeman. They weren't just fleeing the city. They had robbed a store and stolen a car. The had killed a campus security office, execution style. In the fiery exchange, they had demonstrated they had explosives and they had weapons and they were all too amenable to using them. This is not typical of your average murderer on the run. Those guys were probably intent on going down in flames, taking all who they could with them. The authorities deprived him of being able to use hostages and of it being easy to inflict other injury. They didn't need people all about under those circumstances.

For the future would-be terrorist, knowing that should you engage in that kind of thing, things will stop right then and there so that you don't escape but are captured might have a chilling effect. These are not regular crimes and authority shouldn't act as if it is. Working on the assumption that trying to stop crime and apprehend criminals actually encourages crime and criminals to resist borders on the anarchistic absurd.
   4371. Lassus Posted: April 20, 2013 at 08:39 AM (#4420230)
They had robbed a store

Just for the sake of clarity, this is basically everywhere at this point:
There was a 7-Eleven robbery in Cambridge last night, but it had nothing to do with the Boston Marathon bombing suspects.

Margaret Chabris, the director of corporate communication at 7- Eleven, says the surveillance video of the crime was not taken at a 7-Eleven and that the suspect that did rob the 7-Eleven does not look like Tamerlan or Dzhokhar Tsarnaev.

"The suspect in the photos for that particular 7-Eleven robbery looks nothing like the suspects," Chabris says. "The police or someone made a mistake. Someone was confused."
   4372. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 20, 2013 at 08:40 AM (#4420231)
   4373. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 20, 2013 at 08:41 AM (#4420232)
If there was more of an idea that protecting the county was an obligation, and not just something you wait for someone else to do or cut a check for, maybe the protests would have more teeth.


There's an obligation to protect the country, but there's no obligation to fight in Korea, or Vietnam, or Granada, or Panama, or Beirut, or Iraq, or....

I suppose if Bush was going to have to bomb then invade Iraq with draftees it might have given him pause, though considering who we're talking about, perhaps not. Invading with draftees would almost surely have cost him the 2004 election, though, for whatever consolation that might be to all those killed needlessly.
   4374. Morty Causa Posted: April 20, 2013 at 08:48 AM (#4420233)
4371:

I hadn't heard that. I stand corrected on that point then.

But things were confused--that's what was initially reported and the authorities certainly could have been factoring that in when deciding how to handle this.

I should have added that I am not the expert here, and neither is anyone else, and in the heat of the moment, authority and its experts should be granted deference and leeway when it comes to dealing with events as they are unfolding in a violent real time.
   4375. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: April 20, 2013 at 08:52 AM (#4420234)
I also, as a bit of a crim defense geek, think this is going to be a fun and interesting case for the guy (or gal) who gets it, and when I was talking it over with my (former legal aid attorney) mom last night, she was thinking the same thing.

You're not going to "win" in the sense that the dude is going to jail, 100%, and he's going for a long, long time. But he's so young that there's real value to add if you can get him the opportunity for parole. No parole for 30 years? Guy still gets out when he's 49 and has maybe 30, 40 years left. You can really help your client here.

Obviously, you play the brainwashed younger brother angle. Plenty of precedent crimes for that and experts you can draw upon. But you also have some other pieces. He didn't kill the guy in the car they carjacked two nights ago. He didn't kill the guy who peeked in the boat. He didn't try to go out in a blaze of glory (though he did exchange fire with the cops when they found him - bad fact).

Hard to know without seeing the full range of the evidence - what did the emails between him and his brother say, etc? But on first glance, there's enough here to suggest that he was not a full participant in the crime. If, for example, he didn't pull the trigger on the cop, and he ran from the fire fight two nights ago (which was reported), and all that he did was put a backpack down, I think you could easily work with that from a sentencing point of view. I look forward to hearing his side of the story and I hope he's assigned good counsel.
   4376. Morty Causa Posted: April 20, 2013 at 09:07 AM (#4420236)
I don't see the legal process as being novel or interesting at all. Anything interesting will have to do with the extraneous socio-cultural breast-beating through a saturated media circus atmosphere, ala O.J. Simpson, McVeigh, and other case, and it will include accusations about how certain foreigners of an ideological bent or exposure will never adjust to the liberal values of America and the West and shouldn't be let in ever, or self-accusations about how America deserves it for having the audacity to be successful at the expense of the great unwashed and for having the temerity to impose it's views, values, and will on the innocent and exploited. Yadda yadda. Beyond tiresome.
   4377. SteveF Posted: April 20, 2013 at 09:26 AM (#4420239)
The Federal Sentencing Guidelines suggest that there are only two options for first degree murder -- life and the death penalty. The Comprehensive Crime Control Act of 1984 ended federal parole.

All of which is to say, the only thing an attorney will be able to do for this kid is spare him the death penalty.

Edit: Actually reading into this, Federal judges hands aren't nearly as tied as I thought they were. So you're completely right 'zop. There's plenty of room here.
   4378. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: April 20, 2013 at 09:28 AM (#4420240)
Diminished capacity.
   4379. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 20, 2013 at 09:51 AM (#4420243)
We have been talking to these monsters for years. It hasn't helped. All we learn is that crazy, vicious people are crazy and vicious.

Now, now. Not all of BBTF's liberals are hopeless.


Besides, we already know why he did it: insufficient deference to theocratic conservatism.

If Congress wants to stop these tragedies, then it has to address the government's own hostility to the institution of the family and organizations that can address the real problem: the human heart. As I've said before, America doesn't need gun control, it needs self-control. And a Congress that actively discourages it--through abortion, family breakdown, sexual liberalism, or religious hostility--is only compounding the problem.
   4380. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: April 20, 2013 at 09:57 AM (#4420246)
I don't see the legal process as being novel or interesting at all. Anything interesting will have to do with the extraneous socio-cultural breast-beating through a saturated media circus atmosphere, ala O.J. Simpson, McVeigh, and other case, and it will include accusations about how certain foreigners of an ideological bent or exposure will never adjust to the liberal values of America and the West and shouldn't be let in ever,

You can certainly count on that much, and we'll be lucky if these "certain foreigners" are restricted to Chechnyans With Issues when certain congressmen get up a full head of steam.

or self-accusations about how America deserves it for having the audacity to be successful at the expense of the great unwashed and for having the temerity to impose it's views, values, and will on the innocent and exploited.

Please make it a point to show us the first time this happens in this case. Not in some other case, but in this one. I think we'll have a long wait.

Yadda yadda. Beyond tiresome.

Totally agree with you on that larger point. Grill the guy and find out as much as we can about any possible influences and associates, and take whatever followup action may be necessary, but let's be spared the broadbrush generalizations, because there aren't any of those that are likely to do any good in preventing similar incidents in the future.
   4381. Morty Causa Posted: April 20, 2013 at 10:19 AM (#4420253)
We have been talking to these monsters for years. It hasn't helped. All we learn is that crazy, vicious people are crazy and vicious.


The "we-know-you-can't-possibly-have-a-defense-so-you-shouldn't-get-to-make-one" is not something cognizable in American jurisprudence, yet, I think (or is it "I don't think"--aw hell, I could care less, er, uh, ...forget it). A lot of people thought at the beginning of the trial, after the Bronco-busing freeway chase, etc., that there was no way O.J. could possibly skate. What counts most of all (and it should count most of all) is what happens in the courtroom.
   4382. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: April 20, 2013 at 10:29 AM (#4420258)
How long did it take to catch Timothy McVeigh? I don't think this is an O administration thing so much as a modernization/technology thing.


McVeigh's been covered, but the likely comp originally intended was Eric Robert Rudolph. For a lot of reasons, that comp doesn't really apply here. Rudolph is the guy that bombed an abortion facility, a lesbian dance club and the Olympic Park in Atlanta. He was a religious nut and a right wing nut. He evaded capture for years by escaping to the Appalachians in north GA and NC and living off of a scrapped together support structure of like minded nuts.

I doubt this kid would have had access to those sorts of long term survival options even if he had made it out of Boston and into the Vermont mountains.
   4383. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: April 20, 2013 at 10:31 AM (#4420260)
I'm still wondering how 200 shots can be exchanged without disabling a vehicle (last night) and how with SWAT teams involved, you have an hour long firefight* with a guy and no one killed.

Imperial Stormtroopers were prominently involved.


This is said in jest, but the vast majority of shots fired by professionals, much less amateurs, miss their mark entirely. And you can't disable a car by shooting it from behind.
   4384. Lassus Posted: April 20, 2013 at 10:49 AM (#4420265)
And you can't disable a car by shooting it from behind.

Sure. Just hit the back of the neck of the driver. Haven't you watched ANY movies?
   4385. Forsch 10 From Navarone (Dayn) Posted: April 20, 2013 at 10:52 AM (#4420267)
Obviously, you play the brainwashed younger brother angle.

IANAL, but, if you're going to play the "older brother as Svengali" angle, then the fact that the younger brother ran him over after the older brother had been shot and kept going would seem to suggest some operating autonomy, at least from a psychological standpoint. Again, IANAL, but it seems like that point would have some countervailing impact with a jury.
   4386. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: April 20, 2013 at 11:02 AM (#4420271)
IANAL, but, if you're going to play the "older brother as Svengali" angle, then the fact that the younger brother ran him over after the older brother had been shot and kept going would seem to suggest some operating autonomy, at least from a psychological standpoint. Again, IANAL, but it seems like that point would have some countervailing impact with a jury


Counsel: And what did you do then?

Defendant: I drove away as fast as I could.

Counsel: Where did you go?

Defendant: The police were behind the car, so I drove forward.

Counsel: And then what happened?

Defendant: Well, my brother was lying in the road, so, i had to drive over him.

Counsel: How did that make you feel?

Defendant: Scared, I mean, it was my brother, and I never did anything to hurt him. But then when I realized he was dead and he wasn't moving, it was OK. And I just wanted it to be over, and this was all, like, his thing, you know.

Counsel: Where did you go?

Defendant: I didn't want any trouble, so, like I just wanted to hide and wait till i could get a doctor, you know? Because i knew if I got a doctor then they would catch me and kill me.

Counsel: Where did you hide?

Defendant: Well I know if i went into someone's house they could get hurt, and I didn't want to hurt anyone. I ran in backyards looking for a shed or something. Then I saw a boat, you know, like out for the winter . . .
   4387. Publius Publicola Posted: April 20, 2013 at 11:03 AM (#4420273)
I don't know why every body is so happy he was taken alive.

There is nothing he has to say that I need to hear.


It appears his brother may have received bomb-making training from jihadists in Russia somewhere. He possibly has information on where they are and how they operate. He also may describe how they went about their business in setting this up, which may give law enforcement officials useful information in detecting future acts before they arise. All that would be useful.
   4388. Forsch 10 From Navarone (Dayn) Posted: April 20, 2013 at 11:08 AM (#4420274)
#4386 - Yes, I get that the defense would not be the ones pushing the narrative that I described.
   4389. Lassus Posted: April 20, 2013 at 11:12 AM (#4420276)
It appears his brother may have received bomb-making training from jihadists in Russia somewhere.

I'd be curious to know where this comes from. I'd think the odds are pretty even he got his info online.
   4390. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: April 20, 2013 at 11:17 AM (#4420278)
Yeah. Are jihadists in Russia using pressure cookers to make bombs?

   4391. Morty Causa Posted: April 20, 2013 at 11:20 AM (#4420280)
Are they using passenger jets?
   4392. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: April 20, 2013 at 11:20 AM (#4420281)
Yeah. Are jihadists in Russia using pressure cookers to make bombs?


Actually, this seems to be a real thing, yes.
   4393. tshipman Posted: April 20, 2013 at 11:20 AM (#4420282)
I'd be curious to know where this comes from. I'd think the odds are pretty even he got his info online.


Khan Academy! I knew those guys were up to no good.
   4394. just plain joe Posted: April 20, 2013 at 11:31 AM (#4420286)
This is said in jest, but the vast majority of shots fired by professionals, much less amateurs, miss their mark entirely. And you can't disable a car by shooting it from behind.


This the primary reason why allowing guns in schools is a bad idea. If trained professionals are unable to identify the target correctly and then bring that target down with a minimum number of shots, the idea that some random teacher will have the ability to drop everything, grab their gun from wherever it is being kept, and then bring down the bad guy, is just crazy. The only thing that arming teachers will accomplish is more wild shooting and, most likely, more casualities.
   4395. Steve Treder Posted: April 20, 2013 at 11:35 AM (#4420287)
Actually, this seems to be a real thing, yes.

Pressure cooker IEDs are common everywhere there are IEDs. I was listening to an interview with the author Sebastian Junger on Thursday, and he commented that a Humvee in which he was riding in Afghanistan a few years ago had been hit by a pressure cooker IED.
   4396. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: April 20, 2013 at 11:56 AM (#4420301)
My god. All the time I was growing up, we had a WMD in the kitchen. Of course, looking back, given the kind of cook my mother was, I guess I should've known.
   4397. Dale Sams Posted: April 20, 2013 at 12:08 PM (#4420307)
put a major city into lockdown


One could even argue the kid would have been found much earlier had the city not been on lockdown. He was found right after lockdown ended because the guy locked in his house was "allowed" to investigate his own property*

*I may have those details completely wrong, but it's certainly plausible.
   4398. Joey B.: posting for the kids of northeast Ohio Posted: April 20, 2013 at 12:11 PM (#4420309)
I don't know why every body is so happy he was taken alive.

There is nothing he has to say that I need to hear.


Nobody who matters really gives a flying crap what you think you do or don't need to hear, you dumb fukking hayseed. You have a pile of sh*t where a normal person's brain resides.
   4399. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: April 20, 2013 at 12:22 PM (#4420312)
You have a pile of sh*t where a normal person's brain resides.


Pot, meet kettle ...
   4400. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 20, 2013 at 12:30 PM (#4420314)
This the primary reason why allowing guns in schools is a bad idea. If trained professionals are unable to identify the target correctly and then bring that target down with a minimum number of shots, the idea that some random teacher will have the ability to drop everything, grab their gun from wherever it is being kept, and then bring down the bad guy, is just crazy. The only thing that arming teachers will accomplish is more wild shooting and, most likely, more casualities.


Why doesn't some private school that respects the primacy of market principles make this part of their appeal to prospective enrollees? All adults in this school are packing, from the librarian's pink-handled .22 to the principal's vintage Thompson. Better yet, kids can bring their own freedom-defending tools with a note from their parents. Let the market decide.
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