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Sunday, March 31, 2013

OTP: April 2013: Daily Caller: Baseball and the GOP: To rebrand the party, think like a sports fan

This week’s GOP autopsy report, commissioned by RNC Chairman Reince Priebus, is a great start in the much-needed task of rebranding the Republican Party. As the chairman acknowledged, “the way we communicate our principles isn’t resonating widely enough” and “we have to be more inclusive.” The report contains 219 recommendations to “connect people to our principles.” To achieve that goal, the party will need a strategic vision of how voters think about politics, which is something that the report lacks. For that, the GOP can learn a lot from another American passion: baseball.

This year, about 75 million Americans will go to the baseball stadium to watch a ballgame, about the same number as those who will vote in next year’s election. We rarely think about why someone becomes a baseball fan, or why they root for a certain team. Nor do we usually think about why someone chooses to vote for a certain political party. But it’s actually a very useful exercise.

When it comes to baseball, fan loyalty has almost nothing to do with the brain, and almost everything to do with the heart. In all of history, there’s never been a baseball fan who rooted for his team because it had the lowest ticket prices, or because it had the most taxpayer-friendly stadium deal, or because its players did the most community service. For the vast majority of Americans, rooting for a baseball team — not to mention, voting for a political party — isn’t really a rational choice; it’s more of a statement of personal identity — a statement telling the world, “This is who I am.” And for most people, defining “who I am” starts with family and community, before branching out into areas like race, age, gender, and class.

Family is pretty straightforward. If your mom and dad are Yankee fans, you’re almost certainly a Yankee fan. The same is true in politics. If your mom and dad are Republicans, you’re almost certainly a Republican.

Community is also pretty straightforward. If you grew up in, say, Philadelphia, chances are pretty great you’re a Phillies fan. Likewise, someone who grew up in Republican territory like, say, suburban Dallas or rural Indiana is much more likely to become a Republican than a nearly identical person from Seattle or Santa Fe.

Cities with more than one baseball team, like New York or Chicago, show revealing breakdowns by race and gender. The racial split in Chicago between Cubs fans on the North Side and White Sox fans on the South Side is well-documented. In New York, there’s an intriguing gender gap between Mets and Yankee fans, with women gravitating a lot more to the Yanks. While there’s a few theories out there trying to explain that, one obvious answer leaps out: Yankees heartthrob Derek Jeter.

In sports, as in politics, people’s convictions can’t be conveniently reduced to who their parents are or what they look like. But those things are an important foundation, upon which more rational sentiments come into being. Once you’re attached to your team on an emotional level — seeing them as a personal reflection of who you are and what you care about most — a rational exterior comes into being through phrases like “the Red Sox are the best team because they have the most heart” or “the Republicans are the best party because they know how to create jobs.”

Tripon Posted: March 31, 2013 at 10:52 AM | 6544 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

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   4401. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 20, 2013 at 12:32 PM (#4420315)
Reposted because freedom:

This the primary reason why allowing guns in schools is a bad idea. If trained professionals are unable to identify the target correctly and then bring that target down with a minimum number of shots, the idea that some random teacher will have the ability to drop everything, grab their gun from wherever it is being kept, and then bring down the bad guy, is just crazy. The only thing that arming teachers will accomplish is more wild shooting and, most likely, more casualities.



Why doesn't some private school that respects the primacy of market principles make this part of their appeal to prospective enrollees? All adults in this school are packing, from the librarian's pink-handled .22 to the principal's vintage Thompson. Better yet, kids can bring their own freedom-defending tools with a note from their parents. Let the market decide.
   4402. GregD Posted: April 20, 2013 at 12:32 PM (#4420317)
So can anybody clear me up on what happened in the 7-11? The brothers were there buying food and somebody else came in to rob it? And then the brothers realized they would be spotted on the video so fled? The whole thing is so confusing.
   4403. Tripon Posted: April 20, 2013 at 12:37 PM (#4420319)


Why doesn't some private school that respects the primacy of market principles make this part of their appeal to prospective enrollees? All adults in this school are packing, from the librarian's pink-handled .22 to the principal's vintage Thompson. Better yet, kids can bring their own freedom-defending tools with a note from their parents. Let the market decide.


I know you're being snarky, but parents in general don't like guns around their kids.
   4404. Random Transaction Generator Posted: April 20, 2013 at 12:38 PM (#4420320)
I wonder how many curly-haired teenagers with baseball caps would have been mistakenly shot by gung-ho vigilantes if the NRA had their way and everyone in Boston was armed to the teeth...
   4405. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 20, 2013 at 12:40 PM (#4420321)
I know you're being snarky, but parents in general don't like guns around their kids.


Maybe your sissy hippie moonbeam parents. I've heard tell Real Americans know that the only sure fire remedy to a bad guy with a gun is the omnipresence of good guys with guns.
   4406. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: April 20, 2013 at 12:47 PM (#4420324)
I wonder how many curly-haired teenagers with baseball caps would have been mistakenly shot by gung-ho vigilantes if the NRA had their way and everyone in Boston was armed to the teeth...

The Saudi who was suspiciously running away from an explosion, probably gets shot in the back instead of tackled. And a half-dozen other people by stray bullets.
   4407. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 20, 2013 at 12:52 PM (#4420327)
Also of concern, I asked some people what they would think If a situation such as this developed in our town, and I decided to bike around the town and take some pictures...generally the hypothetical sentiment towards me was, "Don't be an #######, just follow orders and stay inside." Well. Okay. This isn't something I'm going to march in the streets about...but I do find it a little disturbing.


Obedience wrt anything of significance is very American, now. The 'rugged individual' stuff is now a marketing thing, if it was ever even an actual part of the culture for more than a very small percent; a national wish fantasy without roots. When it comes to 'stay in your homes, be safe and cautious, report anything suspicious', most will fall in line just as they did in the run up to Iraq.
   4408. Morty Causa Posted: April 20, 2013 at 01:07 PM (#4420332)
There's a time and place for obedience to authority. That was one of them. Experts and professionals don't need amateurs roaming about and cluttering up the place and diverting their attention and resources. If they do need help, they'll ask for it and probably put the amateurs who provide it doing something narrowly defined and restricted. Things can't get worse, even when those involved are competent.

You have a sterling reason for being out and about. Well, maybe I do, too. Why can't I, too, be excused? Then, well me, too, says someone else. And before you know it, it's a cluster ####. And who will be blamed if harm comes to us? Rules, inflexible for a time and in a restricted area have a place. The experts and pros have thought and lived in thought experiments about times like what transpired. You and I haven't. Let's cut 'em a little slack for a while at least; let's give them some discretion for some little time before we allow our wonderfully first impression superior sensibilities to kick in.
   4409. tfbg9 Posted: April 20, 2013 at 01:12 PM (#4420337)
A "People for the American Way" link? Great. I was dying to hear what self-made success stories Penny Marshall and Rob Reiner takes on all this stuff would be.



   4410. Knock on any Iorg Posted: April 20, 2013 at 01:20 PM (#4420341)
Does this mean that Red Sox fans will be even more insufferable than after they won the World Series in 2004?
   4411. BDC Posted: April 20, 2013 at 01:22 PM (#4420342)
Obedience wrt anything of significance is very American, now

May be regional differences, though. Last year a tornado hit Arlington TX, and we were advised to take shelter. A friend of mine immediately ran outside to get a look at the tornado. A cop came by on a bike and yelled: "You shouldn't be out here!" He yelled back, "Well, you shouldn't be out here either!"
   4412. Dale Sams Posted: April 20, 2013 at 01:22 PM (#4420343)
Does this mean that Red Sox fans will be even more insufferable than after they won the World Series in 2004?


Depends. If history is any indicator, the Sox will make it to game seven of the WS...then blow the save, whereupon a million people will say there's no God.
   4413. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: April 20, 2013 at 01:28 PM (#4420346)
[edit] wrong thread!
   4414. McCoy Posted: April 20, 2013 at 01:34 PM (#4420349)
Pressure cooker IEDs are common everywhere there are IEDs. I was listening to an interview with the author Sebastian Junger on Thursday, and he commented that a Humvee in which he was riding in Afghanistan a few years ago had been hit by a pressure cooker IED.

There is nothing more dangerous in this world than a pot of kimchi.
   4415. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: April 20, 2013 at 01:38 PM (#4420353)
RE: the "lockdown" of Boston, I really don't get the panic about it. The authorities asked/suggested folks stay indoors. No one was forced off the streets at gunpoint, except of course those who were paying their taxes that day.

Most locals complied with the request, choosing freely and of their own accord to get out of the way of a massive manhunt for fugitives who attacked their city. I'm sure others didn't. This isn't a "clear the streets or we shoot you all like zombies" order. This isn't martial law. This is a city, that is notoriously just a very large town and probably the most insular major metro in the nation, saying collectively, "yeah, let's clear it for a day and let the cops look for this ######."

All of this pants-wetting over "OMG, MARTIAL LAW!" seems to me about as well founded and rational as the guys that claim universal background checks is the first step to Obama confiscating all of the white people's guns and giving them to the New Black Panthers.
   4416. Morty Causa Posted: April 20, 2013 at 01:38 PM (#4420354)
May be regional differences, though. Last year a tornado hit Arlington TX, and we were advised to take shelter. A friend of mine immediately ran outside to get a look at the tornado. A cop came by on a bike and yelled: "You shouldn't be out here!" He yelled back, "Well, you shouldn't be out here either!"


And the cop should have yelled back, "I wouldn't be if I hadn't sworn a duty to look after dumbasses like you."

Yes, there will always be those who will want to surf in a hurricane (that, too, happened in Texas, at Galveston). They don't need to be elevated to folk heroes.
   4417. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: April 20, 2013 at 01:39 PM (#4420356)
There is nothing more dangerous in this world than a pot of kimchi.


You've clearly never been inside an elevator with Dial after a pot of kimchi. Or a chicken burrito, for that matter.
   4418. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: April 20, 2013 at 01:49 PM (#4420365)
Yes, there will always be those who will want to surf in a hurricane


My favorite Darwin Award ever was a guy who decided to try and parasail a hurricane off the coast of Florida. FROM THE BEACH! Smacked him into a hotel wall. It was hilarious.
   4419. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 20, 2013 at 01:54 PM (#4420367)
Re the LOCKDOWN: This was different from the run of the mill killers on the loose. They had killed 12 people (or 3) and maimed some 170. I don't really have a problem with it. But, then, I'm more sympathetic to law enforcement than most libertarians.
   4420. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: April 20, 2013 at 01:58 PM (#4420368)
"yeah, let's clear it for a day and let the cops look for this ######."


Yeah, I don't have a real problem with it, especially if law enforcement had a reason to believe that there was a chance the MBTA would be attacked. Without the MBTA/Commuter rail, Boston is going to be half empty anyways. It was really eerie though, at least after the construction company working next to my apartment left around 1pm. Plenty of people on their porches or yards, no one outside.
   4421. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 20, 2013 at 02:02 PM (#4420370)

For now, the government is invoking the public safety exception, a designation that allows investigators to question Tsarnaev without reading him his Miranda rights, a Justice Department official told CNN on condition of anonymity.

In ordinary cases, a suspect is told by police he has the right to remain silent and he has the right to a lawyer.

But this is not an ordinary case, say U.S. Sens. John McCain and Lindsey Graham.

They urged that Tsarnaev be held as an "enemy combatant," a designation that allows a suspect to be questioned without a lawyer and without being informed of his Miranda rights.

"Now that the suspect is in custody, the last thing we should want is for him to remain silent. It is absolutely vital the suspect be questioned for intelligence gathering purposes," the senators said. "Under the law of war we can hold this suspect as a potential enemy combatant not entitled to Miranda warnings or the appointment of counsel."

Alan Dershowitz, a prominent defense attorney and Harvard law professor, scoffed at the senators' statement.

"Impossible. There's no way an American citizen committing a domestic crime in the city of Boston could be tried as an enemy combatant," he told CNN's Piers Morgan. "It could never happen. And that shows absolute ignorance of the law."


Dershowitz also said statements made by police in Boston seems to contradict the government's reasons for invoking the public safety exception.

"The police have said there's no public safety issue; it's solved, it's over," Dershowitz said. "There are no further threats. But the FBI is saying there's enough further threats to justify an exception."

Former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani said the federal government may have known about international threats about which state officials were not aware.

"You would have to know the internals of what they have before you can assess whether there is a sensible invocation or not," Giuliani said.


http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/20/us/boston-suspect-what-next/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
   4422. Morty Causa Posted: April 20, 2013 at 02:09 PM (#4420373)
Alan Dershowitz, a prominent defense attorney and Harvard law professor, scoffed at the senators' statement.

"Impossible. There's no way an American citizen committing a domestic crime in the city of Boston could be tried as an enemy combatant," he told CNN's Piers Morgan. "It could never happen. And that shows absolute ignorance of the law."


Is that the Alan Dershowitz who can fit six billiard balls inside his mouth at one time?
   4423. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: April 20, 2013 at 02:10 PM (#4420374)
But this is not an ordinary case, say U.S. Sens. John McCain and Lindsey Graham.


I am shocked - SHOCKED I tell you - that Gramps and Butters want to break out the waterboards for this guy. (Butters was already on record as lamenting the fact that drones had not been deployed over Boston during the manhunt.)

Neocons gonna neocon, man.
   4424. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: April 20, 2013 at 02:10 PM (#4420375)
If they have enough evidence to convict without using his own statements or any evidence gathered from those statements (or evidence that would turn up from an independent line of inquiry) then they can talk to them all they want. Miranda only affects admissibility of that evidence at trial, that's why it's called the exclusionary rule. They can pump Dzhokhar Tsarnaev for information all they want without Mirandizing him if they don't care that whatever they get from him isn't usable in court against him. So if they feel they have enough as is (which they probably do at least on the murder of the MIT cop and the manhunt if not the bombing) and they're concerned about this being a plot formulated with help from outside the country then it's completely sensible to keep interrogating him. And heck, if they think there's a chance of any other active plots, the information might still be admissible under the Quarles exception.

Saying that he CAN'T be mirandized, on the other hand, is ####### stupid. Of course he can have his rights read to him, there's just a risk at that point that he won't talk to you because anything he says is admissible absent the public safety exception.
   4425. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: April 20, 2013 at 02:14 PM (#4420377)
Does this mean that Red Sox fans will be even more insufferable than after they won the World Series in 2004?


HAY, WE'RE BAWSTON STRONG, GUY. RED SAWX NATION IS THE WHOLE NATION! I HAVE A COUSIN WHO WENT TO SCHOOL IN BOSTON, SO I COUNT AS A BOSTONIAN!
   4426. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 20, 2013 at 02:15 PM (#4420378)
If they have enough evidence to convict without using his own statements or any evidence gathered from those statements (or evidence that would turn up from an independent line of inquiry) then they can talk to them all they want. ...

Right. Here's a good article on the topic (with some bonus Nieporent sightings in the comments).
   4427. Morty Causa Posted: April 20, 2013 at 02:15 PM (#4420379)
McCain, Graham & Co. need to cool it. They know as much about the applicable law here as those Republicans who were outraged the NIH spent money freezing rat sperm. I think McCain was one of them. Francis Collins has to patiently explain to his remedial students that this was actually a great savings--otherwise you need to keep a lot of rats, which would entail a lot of caretakers (not to mention food, medicine, etc.), which would mean wages and fringe benefits and all that stuff.
   4428. Dale Sams Posted: April 20, 2013 at 02:16 PM (#4420380)
All of this pants-wetting over "OMG, MARTIAL LAW


I don't *think* anyone here was wetting their pants. I didn't mean to give that impression and probably came off strongly in that direction. It's just a combination of a lot of things I find 'disturbing'. Including the sliding erosion of Miranda.

It's just the continuing Fear Culture, and 'you guys better wrap your heads around the idea of This IS How We Live Now Trust US We Know Best'. It's...disturbing...is the best word.

And, being ABSOLUTELY FRANK HERE NOW, the whole "USA! USA! USA!" thing? Did we dismantle our 100 military bases last night? Stop double-tapping funerals and first responders? Release our record number of farmed out slave-labor prisoners? No? What did we do?

We captured two idiots and got people to embrace the idea that Miranda sliding away is a good thing. And that's just what we know today. Historically of course we can't count on Those Guys Who Know Best to sit on their asses and not seize more opportunities to erode civil liberties.
   4429. McCoy Posted: April 20, 2013 at 02:19 PM (#4420383)
Watched Jack Reacher last night and was amused by some of the bad storytelling and also by the fact that it would seem this is the wrong movie for the times.

Anyway the movie opens with a sniper apparently killing 5 random people in Pittsburgh. The police arrest a suspect to the shooting and Jack Reacher is brought in to do some investigating. A couple of nights after the shooting Jack is involved in a very large police chase in which he avoids capture by simply getting out of his car and blending in with a large crowd at a bus stop. Now then he doesn't just park the car and get out. No, he lets it roll forward while he gets out and the people the bus stop see this. Then when about 30 police cars descend on the scene his fellow people waiting for the bus actively hide him! Um, why?

The other weird scene is that he meets Robert Duvall's character for about an hour or so and then that very night he enlists Robert in killing a bunch of people Robert has never met before.
   4430. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: April 20, 2013 at 02:21 PM (#4420385)
We captured two idiots and got people to embrace the idea that Miranda sliding away is a good thing. And that's just what we know today.


Really? I'm more worried about what happens in the courts than in the court of public opinion. Miranda has never been popular, and the problem is that it's been repeatedly pared back by multiple SCOTUS decisions.
   4431. Gonfalon B. Posted: April 20, 2013 at 02:22 PM (#4420386)
Nobody who matters really gives a flying crap what you think you do or don't need to hear, you dumb fukking hayseed. You have a pile of sh*t where a normal person's brain resides.

Temper, temper. Imagine how whiny our resident punch toy would be on this fine mid-April afternoon if the Nationals were five games out.
   4432. Dale Sams Posted: April 20, 2013 at 02:23 PM (#4420387)
by the fact that it would seem this is the wrong movie for the times.


Yeah, that "Five Comic-Book Heroes You Didn't Know Were in Fact Terrorists" article I wanted to write for Cracked went right down the shitter.
   4433. Howie Menckel Posted: April 20, 2013 at 02:28 PM (#4420392)
Big Papi to crowd at pre-game at Fenway: "This is our f*cking city"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCPed2VTQEU&feature=youtu.be

over the line, or right for the occasion?
   4434. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: April 20, 2013 at 02:30 PM (#4420394)
You need the next line of that quote: "This is our ####### city. Nobody gets to dictate our freedoms."

I felt it was just right.
   4435. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 20, 2013 at 02:31 PM (#4420395)
We captured two idiots and got people to embrace the idea that Miranda sliding away is a good thing. And that's just what we know today. Historically of course we can't count on Those Guys Who Know Best to sit on their asses and not seize more opportunities to erode civil liberties.

I'm not a big fan of locking down an entire city because one guy is on the loose, but all of the pants-wetting about Miranda is silly.

***
You need the next line of that quote: "This is our ####### city. Nobody gets to dictate our freedoms."

Everyone's going nuts about this on Twitter. I guess they've already forgotten that a game was postponed and the city remained on lockdown for 24 hours because an injured kid was hiding in a boat. Aside from the classless profanity, it was little more than revisionist bravado on Ortiz's part.
   4436. Howie Menckel Posted: April 20, 2013 at 02:34 PM (#4420398)

a (liberal) judge I know says this re Miranda, fwiw

"there is nothing which requires a detainee to be read Miranda rights or anything else. It's only that any information he might provide in response to custodial interrogation is subject to being ruled inadmissible at trial. It's called the "Exclusionary Rule", and it is a judicially created doctrine. Thanks in large part to police abuses of the 40s, 50s and 60s, the Courts have held that the "punishment" for not advising a detainee of his Fifth Amendment rights is to exclude not only the evidence gained through interrogation, but also any additional evidence it leads to. That doctrine is "Fruit of the Poisonous Tree". "

   4437. Morty Causa Posted: April 20, 2013 at 02:37 PM (#4420402)
It's not a question of what I would do; it's a question of what I think authority is allowed to do, and under what conditions it can do it. I'm sure there are other jurisdictions had they been in the same predicament, they would have acted differently. That doesn't mean that what went down in Boston yesterday was illegal or otherwise wrong. People in authority in a spot and on the spot should have some slack in the way they operate, as they are in operation, and should not be subjected to a running second-guessing of every action they take while they are taking it. No one is that good, despite what ESPN analysts would have you believe.
   4438. Knock on any Iorg Posted: April 20, 2013 at 02:38 PM (#4420404)
The concern over eroding Miranda rights, or rights of the accused in general, is founded on the notion that the State has enormous power and seeks to increase that power. The rights of individuals is protected to a certain extent (that varies over time according to changes in law and court rulings) against that enormous power. Otherwise you have a system approximating tyranny against which the founders of the United States rebelled in the first place. Constitutional literalists should appreciate this prima facie.
   4439. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: April 20, 2013 at 02:41 PM (#4420405)
Joe: You realize that it wasn't martial law, right? They shut down the MBTA and asked people to stay inside. And that same injured kid helped murder 4 people and injure over 170 others.

Howie: That's all correct. The only thing I'd add is that evidence which could have been discovered through independently developed investigation can still be used even if it's also fruit of the poisonous tree.

   4440. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: April 20, 2013 at 02:43 PM (#4420407)

It appears his brother may have received bomb-making training from jihadists in Russia somewhere.

I'd be curious to know where this comes from. I'd think the odds are pretty even he got his info online.


According to this CNN article the older brother spent 6 months in Russia last year. Then again, I don't think whoever wrote the article knows very much, since Sheremetyevo is just one of the international airports serving Moscow.

FBI agents interviewed Tamerlan two years ago and also looked at his travel history, checked databases for derogatory information and searched for Web postings. But the agency found no connection with terror groups, an FBI official told CNN.

Tamerlan traveled to Sheremetyevo, Russia, in January 2012, according to travel records provided by a U.S. official. He returned six months later with a beard, those documents show.
   4441. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 20, 2013 at 02:45 PM (#4420408)
Joe: You realize that it wasn't martial law, right? They shut down the MBTA and asked people to stay inside. And that same injured kid helped murder 4 people and injure over 170 others.

By that logic, the city should have been on lockdown all week, since the bombers were on the lam and could have been anywhere.
   4442. Morty Causa Posted: April 20, 2013 at 02:46 PM (#4420409)
Miranda isn't 250-years old. It's 50-years old. If there were no Miranda, that doesn't mean those arrested would have no recourse. Indeed, before Miranda, there was recourse--in state law and in federal law.
   4443. Greg K Posted: April 20, 2013 at 02:47 PM (#4420412)
Tamerlan traveled to Sheremetyevo, Russia, in January 2012, according to travel records provided by a U.S. official. He returned six months later with a beard, those documents show.

Do we have any reliable information on whether Josh Reddick spent any time in Russia last winter?

EDIT: I have to say, as a heavily bearded individual I find the frame of mind to include this as relevant information a bit troubling for my people.
   4444. BDC Posted: April 20, 2013 at 02:54 PM (#4420415)
I understand about the exclusion of statements, but what about the right to counsel? Miranda says this: "he must be clearly informed that he has the right to consult with a lawyer and to have the lawyer with him during interrogation." Even if I weren't interrogated at all, wouldn't the state run into some problems prosecuting me later if I were never told I could have a lawyer? It's probably a matter of timing, right – maybe they needn't tell me that initially, just when they are fixing actually to charge me with a crime.
   4445. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 20, 2013 at 03:00 PM (#4420419)
Even if a suspect is never Mirandized, the furthest he could likely get in the process without knowing about his right to an attorney is the arraignment stage.
   4446. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: April 20, 2013 at 03:00 PM (#4420420)
Miranda isn't 250-years old. It's 50-years old. If there were no Miranda, that doesn't mean those arrested would have no recourse. Indeed, before Miranda, there was recourse--in state law and in federal law.


No, but Miranda (and the other 1960s defendant's rights cases) significantly expanded those rights. For an example of what you needed pre-Miranda, look at Brown v. Mississippi. That conviction was only overturned by the Supreme Court (after being upheld at the state supreme court level), where the government at trial openly admitted to brutalizing the defendants, and where conviction rested only upon those confessions that were obtained after being whipped and in one case mock-lynched over (IIRC) 36 hours.

I'm vastly more concerned about cases like Berghuis v. Thompkins than I am about the FBI not immediately reading the suspect their rights when it comes to the erosion of Miranda (not to mention the general narrowing of the exclusionary rule).
   4447. spike Posted: April 20, 2013 at 03:01 PM (#4420421)
The best thing to remember about not Mirandizing is it's no magickal get-out-of jail free card like it's too often presented dramatically. It's worth noting that Miranda was retried with the offending evidence excluded - and still convicted.
   4448. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: April 20, 2013 at 03:04 PM (#4420422)
BDC: Miranda deals with the admissibility of evidence gained, so long as the prosecution doesn't try to use something that was gained prior to being informed of your rights they don't actually ever have to inform you. Now, you'd learn about your right to an attorney by the time you were finished being arraigned, various states have different systems but often for minor crimes involving indigent defendants counsel is assigned at the time of arraignment. If a defendant was somehow convicted or plead guilty without the state ever informing them of their right to an attorney, then there'd be a problem. Of course, that's not a Miranda thing, that's from Gideon v. Wainwright.

eta:
It's worth noting that Miranda was retried with the offending evidence excluded - and still convicted.


Yes. I remember in Philadelphia that many of my clients were confused that they'd never been read their rights, and I had to explain to them that the police didn't need to do that because they were never interrogated after being found with angel dust in the front ash tray of the stolen car they were driving.
   4449. BDC Posted: April 20, 2013 at 03:06 PM (#4420424)
Thanks, everyone, those explanations re: right to counsel make good sense.
   4450. Howie Menckel Posted: April 20, 2013 at 03:15 PM (#4420429)

Miranda after winning 'Miranda,' per wiki

can't decide which is odder, sentences 1 + 2, sentence 3, or sentence 4. what a ride....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_v._Arizona

"On March 13, 1963, Ernesto Miranda was arrested, by the Phoenix Police Department, based on circumstantial evidence linking him to the kidnapping and rape of a 17 year old girl 10 days earlier......

Miranda was retried after the original case against him was thrown out, and this time the prosecution, instead of using the confession, called witnesses (including his common-law wife, who testified that he had told her of committing the crime) and used other evidence.

Miranda was convicted in 1967 and sentenced to serve 20 to 30 years. He was paroled in 1972. After his release, he returned to his old neighborhood and made a modest living autographing police officers' "Miranda cards" which contained the text of the warning, for reading to arrestees. He was stabbed to death during an argument in a bar on January 31, 1976."

   4451. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: April 20, 2013 at 03:18 PM (#4420433)
That's missing the best part about Miranda, the alleged murderer was never tried IIRC in part because he exercised his Miranda rights and they didn't have enough other evidence.
   4452. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 20, 2013 at 03:24 PM (#4420441)
West, Texas is getting federal aid.
Gov. Rick Perry on Thursday declared McLennan County - home to West, the small community rocked by the deadly fertilizer plant explosion - a disaster area and announced that he's asking President Barack Obama for a federal emergency declaration as well. Link
Rep. Bill Flores (R-Texas), the congressman for the district that includes Waco and the surrounding area, said congressional leaders he had talked to have promised to extend any assistance necessary.

"We’re ready for the call. We’re working with the offices of Sen. [John] Cornyn [R-Texas], Sen. [Ted] Cruz [R-Texas]. We’ve contacted the governor’s office and said ‘as soon as you make the call, let us know,’" said Flores Thursday on “CBS This Morning." Link
“We are in very close touch with officials on the ground and we’re monitoring the tragic accident closely,” [Ted Cruz] said at the Capitol. “It’s truly horrific and we are working to ensure that all available resources are marshaled to deal with the horrific loss of life and suffering that we’ve seen.” Link

I'm glad that that Texas legislators now see the value in being part of the United States. Hopefully in the future, we'll see less talk of secession and not have people blocking federal aid to hurricane victims.
   4453. Howie Menckel Posted: April 20, 2013 at 03:25 PM (#4420447)

yeah, apparently true, although I didn't find any original reporting on that

http://crime.about.com/od/police/a/miranda_rights.htm

"A suspect was arrested in Miranda's stabbing, but exercised his right to remain silent. He was released without being charged."

Miranda died at age 34.
   4454. Lassus Posted: April 20, 2013 at 03:28 PM (#4420450)
That's missing the best part about Miranda, the alleged murderer was never tried IIRC in part because he exercised his Miranda rights and they didn't have enough other evidence.

Wrong. The best part about Miranda is that you have to sneak thru Reaver territory to get there.
   4455. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: April 20, 2013 at 03:33 PM (#4420458)
The best part about Miranda is that you have to sneak thru Reaver territory to get there.


And you have to exercise your right to remain silent while doing it!
   4456. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 20, 2013 at 03:33 PM (#4420461)
I'm glad that that Texas legislators now see the value in being part of the United States. Hopefully in the future, we'll see less talk of secession and not have people blocking federal aid to hurricane victims.

If the people in Texas load up their "emergency relief" bill with requests for billions of dollars in non-emergency spending, you might have a point. Until then, the above is yet another lame attempt at a "gotcha."
   4457. Publius Publicola Posted: April 20, 2013 at 03:35 PM (#4420463)
So, judging by the way the thinking of the NRA seems to meander to address these problems, once we allow teachers and admins to bring loaded guns to school and double as security personnel, and the inevitable happens when some intern who isn't allowed to go on a school trip decides to exact revenge by shooting up her classroom, of course the NRA will recommend then that the problem isn't too many guns in schools but not enough, and that each student be able to bring a loaded firearm of choice to school and that firearm training be mandatory in preschool, so by the time they reach 1st grade, all of our children will be trained killers.
   4458. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 20, 2013 at 03:38 PM (#4420467)
High five!
   4459. Publius Publicola Posted: April 20, 2013 at 03:39 PM (#4420470)
I'm glad that that Texas legislators now see the value in being part of the United States. Hopefully in the future, we'll see less talk of secession and not have people blocking federal aid to hurricane victims.


Obama should announce that, in deference to Ted Cruz and Jon Cornyn and their zeal for states rights, a federal emergency declaration will not be declared and federal aid dollars will not be forthcoming. The announcement should have a big bow on it and have both senators from NJ sign it with wet kisses.
   4460. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 20, 2013 at 03:42 PM (#4420478)
Until then, the above is yet another lame attempt at a "gotcha."
It's not a gotcha. I think we're obligated as a nation to send what help we can to Texas. I have no problem with discussion on how money should be spent. I have absolutely no tolerance for even the whiff of secession. I find Perry's 180 amusing, and I don't seen Cruz, Cornyn, or Flores trying to slow things down to make sure none of the money for Texas might include "non-emergency" dollars.

I just hope they all remember this moment the next time a hurricane or earthquake or something hits somewhere else.
   4461. Lassus Posted: April 20, 2013 at 03:44 PM (#4420479)
High five!

WTF are you whining referring to now?
   4462. Publius Publicola Posted: April 20, 2013 at 03:45 PM (#4420482)
If the people in Texas load up their "emergency relief" bill with requests for billions of dollars in non-emergency spending,


Keep reading American Spectator, Joe.
   4463. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 20, 2013 at 03:48 PM (#4420484)
It's not a gotcha. I think we're obligated as a nation to send what help we can to Texas. I have no problem with discussion on how money should be spent. I have absolutely no tolerance for even the whiff of secession. I find Perry's 180 amusing, and I don't seen Cruz, Cornyn, or Flores trying to slow things down to make sure none of the money for Texas might include "non-emergency" dollars.

A few secession jokes don't constitute anything resembling a secession movement.

Regarding spending, if you "have no problem with discussion on how money should be spent," then you should have no problem with Ted Cruz, et al., voting against a pork-laden "emergency" spending bill. (And as for "Cruz, Cornyn, or Flores trying to slow things down," there's not, as far as I can tell, even a bill to slow down yet, so it's unclear what you're talking about.)
   4464. Publius Publicola Posted: April 20, 2013 at 03:51 PM (#4420489)
Anything that involves federal dollars is pork to Cruz.
   4465. Lassus Posted: April 20, 2013 at 03:58 PM (#4420495)
A few secession jokes don't constitute anything resembling a secession movement.

Texas Secession Movement Gains Traction - Fox News 1/16/2013
   4466. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 20, 2013 at 04:00 PM (#4420498)
Wait, now Fox News is a legit news source? Things change so quickly around here.
   4467. Lassus Posted: April 20, 2013 at 04:04 PM (#4420505)
Wait, now Fox News is a legit news source? Things change so quickly around here.

Valiant attempt to deflect from your own nonsense; however, you sound pitiful.

Look back, I always watched FOX for the debates over MSNBC. They are legit on conservative talking points, that's for sure.
   4468. Gonfalon B. Posted: April 20, 2013 at 04:04 PM (#4420506)
4456: Until then, the above is yet another lame attempt at a "gotcha."

4466: Wait, now Fox News is a legit news source?

Now that was an AWESOME attempt at a "gotcha"!
   4469. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 20, 2013 at 04:10 PM (#4420514)
Wait, now Fox News is a legit news source?
It is to you. And Perry wasn't joking.

Regarding spending, if you "have no problem with discussion on how money should be spent," then you should have no problem with Ted Cruz, et al., voting against a pork-laden "emergency" spending bill.
I have enormous problems with it. Cruz didn't just vote against it, he grossly mischaracterized it as pork. Politifact breakdown of the bill. Basically, Cruz and friends labeled "pork":
“A big portion of the $17 billion in “immediate” assistance, more than $5 billion, went to replenish FEMA’s disaster relief fund, which may fund relief from future disasters.” PolitiFact also disagrees with some of the math Cruz repeated, “On Jan. 28, it passed H.R. 152, a separate $50.5 billion package. Of that $50.5 billion, $17 billion went toward immediate Sandy aid, while $33.5 billion was for “near- and long-term assistance and mitigation,” according to a Congressional Quarterly analysis.”
Essentially, Cruz objected to funding the same agencies he now wants money from.

EDIT: Moreover, the pork in the bill was going to red states. From Forbes:
Why, you might ask, would the Senate be packing billions of taxpayer dollars for these areas of the country that are nowhere near the devastation brought about by superstorm Sandy into a bill designed to bring relief to those suffering from the storm that ripped the northeastern part of the nation?

The answer can be found in a quick review of the states that are set to benefit from the Senate’s extra-special benevolence—states including Alabama, Mississippi, Texas and Louisiana...

Each is not only a red state, but each of these states are represented by two Republican senators—with the exception of Louisiana with its one GOP senator.
And what happens when you buy off seven Republican senators with a package of goodies under the guise of storm relief supposedly meant to benefit two blue states?

You get yourself a filibuster proof piece of legislation. Link.
   4470. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 20, 2013 at 04:14 PM (#4420522)
Valiant attempt to deflect from your own nonsense; however, you sound pitiful.

"Pitiful" is hanging around a message board for the express purpose of nipping at people's heels with pedantic nonsense.

Texans like secession jokes because of Texas' old Republic of Texas history, but there's no secession movement in Texas that comes close to passing the laugh test.

***
I have enormous problems with it. Cruz didn't just vote against it, he grossly mischaracterized it as pork. Politifact breakdown of the bill. Basically, Cruz and friends labeled "pork":

[...]

Essentially, Cruz objected to funding the same agencies he now wants money from.

EDIT: Moreover, the pork in the bill was going to red states. From Forbes:

Was there pork in the bill or wasn't there? You seem confused about the point you're trying to make.

In any event, Ted Cruz objected to including non-emergency spending in an "emergency" bill. (Also, the fact that "the pork in the bill was going to red states" makes Cruz's "no" vote more principled, not less.)
   4471. Mefisto Posted: April 20, 2013 at 04:17 PM (#4420529)
I just hope they all remember this moment the next time a hurricane or earthquake or something hits somewhere else.


Remember, hell. They should have to stand on the floor and apologize for their votes on the Sandy bill before debate proceeds on any aid for Texas.
   4472. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 20, 2013 at 04:19 PM (#4420537)
Cruz objected to including non-emergency spending in an "emergency" bill. (Also, the last sentence makes Cruz's stance more principled, not less.)
Why? He gave lip service to actual emergency funding, but did nothing about it. He voted no on the legislation he could, then went home. He did literally nothing to help Hurricane Sandy victims gain emergency federal funding.

And where are Cruz's principles now? He didn't want to send emergency money to NY/NJ. He didn't want to fund FEMA. Yet he wants emergency money for his own, and he wants FEMA to open its wallet. Principles matter when things get rough, too.
   4473. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 20, 2013 at 04:25 PM (#4420549)
Why? He gave lip service to actual emergency funding, but did nothing about it. He voted no on the legislation he could, then went home. He did literally nothing to help Hurricane Sandy victims gain emergency federal funding.

And where are Cruz's principles now?

What are you talking about? There's no indication that Ted Cruz is against all federal emergency spending. He voted against an "emergency" bill that was full of non-emergency spending, but the bill passed, so there was no reason for him to make an additional effort to "help Hurricane Sandy victims gain emergency federal funding." They got the funding, and then some.
   4474. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 20, 2013 at 04:32 PM (#4420562)
There's no indication that Ted Cruz is against all federal emergency spending.
Where do you think federal emergency spending comes from, the magic emergency genie? It comes from those same emergency funds that Cruz didn't want to fund. You can't say on one hand that Cruz is fine with emergency services then turn around and say we shouldn't fund the departments that provide emergency services.

And again I ask, why isn't Cruz trying to put the breaks on funding for West, Texas to make sure there's no "pork" there?
They got the funding, and then some.
Despite Cruz's, and Cornyn's, and Flores' best efforts, yes.
   4475. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 20, 2013 at 04:34 PM (#4420566)
Where do you think federal emergency spending comes from, the magic emergency genie? It comes from those same emergency funds that Cruz didn't want to fund. You can't say on one hand that Cruz is fine with emergency services then turn around and say we shouldn't fund the departments that provide emergency services.

You seem unaware that the Senate is allowed to draft and pass more than one piece of legislation per session. There was no reason that non-emergency spending needed to be rolled into an "emergency" bill.

And again I ask, why isn't Cruz trying to put the breaks on funding for West, Texas to make sure there's no "pork" there?

Put the brakes on what? Is there even a bill pending before the Senate?

I don't recall Ted Cruz laying in the road in New Jersey to block the delivery of bottled water.
   4476. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 20, 2013 at 04:39 PM (#4420571)
You seem unaware that the Senate is allowed to draft and pass more than one piece of legislation per session. There was no reason that non-emergency spending needed to be rolled into an "emergency" bill.
I suppose this is the same conservative mindset that allowed for war spending without war funding. But there's baseball to be watched. I'll let you have the last word, Joe. I'm bored with you now.
   4477. Lassus Posted: April 20, 2013 at 04:44 PM (#4420575)
...but there's no secession movement in Texas that comes close to passing the laugh test.

Don't tell me, tell your Master Control over there.
   4478. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: April 20, 2013 at 04:54 PM (#4420586)
I don't recall Ted Cruz laying in the road in New Jersey to block the delivery of bottled water.

Now you've gone and given us all yet another dream to live for.
   4479. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 20, 2013 at 05:01 PM (#4420592)
There's a lot of silliness being bandied about generally (I don't mean this thread) over Miranda. The authorities do not have to read him his rights. This is an utter non-issue. They may not (or still may) be able to use his statements against him later, but if they have a mountain of evidence anyway his statements aren't needed. Do people think that if he didn't talk after being Mirandized, there wouldn't be enough for a conviction?

Second, FOX News is now beating the drum that "Obama will not treat him as an enemy combatant." And hooray for that. As far as we know, he is a US citizen who committed a crime on domestic soil. There is no justification for not giving him a jury trial and full due process.

(While the Miranda issue is a non-issue, I do wonder whether they could screw up the prosecution of him by treating him as an enemy combatant. And I am no friend of the Obama administration on this issue generally; I was very critical of their proposed handling of KSM, including Holder's initial announcement (later they came to their senses) that he would be tried in downtown Manhattan.)

Finally, re Srul's comment that the guy is better off dead since we'll get nothing useful from him: I'm sympathetic to that comment. If this guy is part of a broader cell or network, I have to believe by sifting through his (and his brother's) electronic communications we'd discover that anyway. But, sure, fine - maybe there's something he can tell us if he speaks. Whatever. Like Srul, I'm skeptical that this has much utility.

   4480. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 20, 2013 at 05:08 PM (#4420594)
The David Ortiz comment was silly. People are dead and maimed. We shouldn't be doing victory speeches.
   4481. Dale Sams Posted: April 20, 2013 at 05:14 PM (#4420596)
The David Ortiz comment was silly. People are dead and maimed. We shouldn't be doing victory speeches.


Well, we also shouldn't be having almost parades, and stadium announcers sounding like Orson Welles delivering speeches about VICTORY and JUSTICE...but in for a penny, in for an Olde Towne.
   4482. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 20, 2013 at 05:31 PM (#4420607)
The city was shut down for a day as people were gripped by fear on account of a single individual being on the loose, with 4 dead and 170 injured, many of those maimed. People didn't go to work. Public transportation was shut down. The streets were empty, as agents were going door to door conducting warrantless searches. Major sporting events were canceled.

The Terrorists Won. To now come out from hiding acting all, "This is our f#cking city, y'all" is silly.
   4483. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: April 20, 2013 at 05:36 PM (#4420612)

The streets were empty, as agents were going door to door conducting warrantless searches.

Is this true - did the police conduct searches without warrants or the permission of the owners of the property?
   4484. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: April 20, 2013 at 05:42 PM (#4420617)
He returned six months later with a beard, those documents show.

as a heavily bearded individual I find the frame of mind to include this as relevant information a bit troubling for my people.


Perhaps they meant "beard" in the Mike Piazza sense?
   4485. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 20, 2013 at 05:44 PM (#4420619)
One could even argue the kid would have been found much earlier had the city not been on lockdown. He was found right after lockdown ended because the guy locked in his house was "allowed" to investigate his own property*

True, but the lockdown also made escape a lot more difficult. With nobody out and about, anyone that was moving around was easily spotted and questioned. If that terrorist had been ambulatory, he'd have a lot easier time moving around on a normal work day.
   4486. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 20, 2013 at 05:55 PM (#4420632)
Counsel: Where did you go?

Defendant: I didn't want any trouble, so, like I just wanted to hide and wait till i could get a doctor, you know? Because i knew if I got a doctor then they would catch me and kill me.

You really think this guy is going to take the stand? Really? I'd be very surprised to see that. All this self-serving fantasy testimony about not "really" wanting to hurt anyone would be subject to cross-examination. One has to wait to see what a trial actually produces, but based on what is available at the moment, I don't see "my brother made do it" testimony surviving cross-examination by a 3rd year law student, much less the top talent available to the U.S. attorney.
   4487. BDC Posted: April 20, 2013 at 06:09 PM (#4420651)
Texans like secession jokes because of Texas' old Republic of Texas history, but there's no secession movement in Texas that comes close to passing the laugh test

It's not a joke at all; as I said somewhere upthread, secession provoked a serious investigative article in the Ft Worth paper recently, and who knows how many other media picked it up or did their own. The idea was dismissed as massively impractical even in Ft Worth (the biggest of red cities) but it was no joke at all; it's an ideal dear to the hearts of a lot of people who know it's impractical.

Texas is fixing to reject Medicaid expansion, which also (initially) would bring in a lot of federal dollars, on states'-rights principles (and a hatred for poor people); but let a disaster like West happen and it's hey, Dad, I ran a little short this week, can I have an advance on my allowance.
   4488. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 20, 2013 at 06:14 PM (#4420654)
Texas is fixing to reject Medicaid expansion, which also (initially) would bring in a lot of federal dollars, on states'-rights principles (and a hatred for poor people); ...

Yes, how foolish of Texas to decline to expand a broken program using federal dollars that aren't guaranteed to continue.
   4489. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 20, 2013 at 06:15 PM (#4420657)
Texas is fixing to reject Medicaid expansion, which also (initially) would bring in a lot of federal dollars, on states'-rights principles (and a hatred for poor people)

That's not really the case. The Feds may pay a lot in the early years, but the state share goes up and becomes an entitlement. Many states are opting out for fiscal reasons. All forseeable, if folks had given it a little more thought.
   4490. tshipman Posted: April 20, 2013 at 06:17 PM (#4420661)
You seem unaware that the Senate is allowed to draft and pass more than one piece of legislation per session. There was no reason that non-emergency spending needed to be rolled into an "emergency" bill.


Yes, of course there was. The reason why non-emergency spending was rolled in was in order to prevent a filibuster.

This is extraordinarily disingenuous of you, Joe.
   4491. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: April 20, 2013 at 06:18 PM (#4420663)

One could even argue the kid would have been found much earlier had the city not been on lockdown. He was found right after lockdown ended because the guy locked in his house was "allowed" to investigate his own property*

Or perhaps without the "shelter in place" warnings, the guy would have left his house and not even noticed the tarp on his boat was unsecured. It seems silly to speculate either way.
   4492. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 20, 2013 at 06:21 PM (#4420665)
Yes, of course there was. The reason why non-emergency spending was rolled in was in order to prevent a filibuster.

This is extraordinarily disingenuous of you, Joe.

Not disingenuous at all. There's no way there would have been a filibuster of a bill that was solely comprised of emergency spending. The filibuster talk is just a rationalization for loading the bill with billions in non-emergency spending in both affected and unaffected areas.
   4493. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 20, 2013 at 06:25 PM (#4420672)
You seem unaware that the Senate is allowed to draft and pass more than one piece of legislation per session. There was no reason that non-emergency spending needed to be rolled into an "emergency" bill.

Yes, of course there was. The reason why non-emergency spending was rolled in was in order to prevent a filibuster.

This is extraordinarily disingenuous of you, Joe.


Not much chance of a (successful) filibuster against any legitimate emergency spending bill. Seems rather disingenuous to suggest that such a filibuster was a normal Senate practice.
   4494. BDC Posted: April 20, 2013 at 06:29 PM (#4420681)
the state share goes up and becomes an entitlement. Many states are opting out for fiscal reasons

Well, for reasons of resistance to any kind of entitlement that goes to poor people. Other entitlements we like just fine.
   4495. tshipman Posted: April 20, 2013 at 06:33 PM (#4420688)
Not much chance of a (successful) filibuster against any legitimate emergency spending bill. Seems rather disingenuous to suggest that such a filibuster was a normal Senate practice.


Are you high?
   4496. Greg K Posted: April 20, 2013 at 06:36 PM (#4420689)
Also of concern, I asked some people what they would think If a situation such as this developed in our town, and I decided to bike around the town and take some pictures...generally the hypothetical sentiment towards me was, "Don't be an #######, just follow orders and stay inside." Well. Okay. This isn't something I'm going to march in the streets about...but I do find it a little disturbing.

Not the same scenario really, but a while back during the impromptu week of rioting in the UK there was a bit of a "don't be an idiot, stay indoors" vibe for a weekend here in Nottingham. As far as I know the authorities didn't really make any announcements, it was more a case of just paying attention to what was going on around you. Of course, being an idiot I totally forgot and at 1am decided to show some of my room-mate's friends who were visiting the good local midnight eateries. In about a seven minute walk we got pulled over by two different cops who gave us variations on "what are you, a bunch of idiots? Get inside!"
   4497. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 20, 2013 at 06:36 PM (#4420690)
Well, for reasons of resistance to any kind of entitlement that goes to poor people. Other entitlements we like just fine.

There are almost 50 million people on food stamps, almost 10 million people collecting disability, and almost 60 million people on (pre-expansion) Medicaid. To the extent there's been "resistance to any kind of entitlement that goes to poor people," it appears to have been mostly futile.
   4498. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: April 20, 2013 at 06:56 PM (#4420701)
You really think this guy is going to take the stand? Really? I'd be very surprised to see that. All this self-serving fantasy testimony about not "really" wanting to hurt anyone would be subject to cross-examination. One has to wait to see what a trial actually produces, but based on what is available at the moment, I don't see "my brother made do it" testimony surviving cross-examination by a 3rd year law student, much less the top talent available to the U.S. attorney.

It will not help his case that according to the Watertown police chief, he allegedly ran over his brother while his brother was still alive and police were attempting to handcuff him (watch the end of the first video and the beginning of the second video on that page for the relevant portions). If true, I wonder whether he will face additional charges in the death of his brother.
   4499. Srul Itza Posted: April 20, 2013 at 07:05 PM (#4420710)
If true, I wonder whether he will face additional charges in the death of his brother.


Even if it was not intentional, he could probably be charged with the death of his brother under the felony murder rule. He would not be the first criminal charged with felony murder because one of his accomplices ended up getting killed by the police during the commission of the crime.
   4500. Howie Menckel Posted: April 20, 2013 at 08:33 PM (#4420775)

Neil Diamond took an early flight out of LA this morning to Boston, then sang - yes, Sweet Caroline - at Fenway Park live.

I'm snark-ed out on that. good on him

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