Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Sunday, March 31, 2013

OTP: April 2013: Daily Caller: Baseball and the GOP: To rebrand the party, think like a sports fan

This week’s GOP autopsy report, commissioned by RNC Chairman Reince Priebus, is a great start in the much-needed task of rebranding the Republican Party. As the chairman acknowledged, “the way we communicate our principles isn’t resonating widely enough” and “we have to be more inclusive.” The report contains 219 recommendations to “connect people to our principles.” To achieve that goal, the party will need a strategic vision of how voters think about politics, which is something that the report lacks. For that, the GOP can learn a lot from another American passion: baseball.

This year, about 75 million Americans will go to the baseball stadium to watch a ballgame, about the same number as those who will vote in next year’s election. We rarely think about why someone becomes a baseball fan, or why they root for a certain team. Nor do we usually think about why someone chooses to vote for a certain political party. But it’s actually a very useful exercise.

When it comes to baseball, fan loyalty has almost nothing to do with the brain, and almost everything to do with the heart. In all of history, there’s never been a baseball fan who rooted for his team because it had the lowest ticket prices, or because it had the most taxpayer-friendly stadium deal, or because its players did the most community service. For the vast majority of Americans, rooting for a baseball team — not to mention, voting for a political party — isn’t really a rational choice; it’s more of a statement of personal identity — a statement telling the world, “This is who I am.” And for most people, defining “who I am” starts with family and community, before branching out into areas like race, age, gender, and class.

Family is pretty straightforward. If your mom and dad are Yankee fans, you’re almost certainly a Yankee fan. The same is true in politics. If your mom and dad are Republicans, you’re almost certainly a Republican.

Community is also pretty straightforward. If you grew up in, say, Philadelphia, chances are pretty great you’re a Phillies fan. Likewise, someone who grew up in Republican territory like, say, suburban Dallas or rural Indiana is much more likely to become a Republican than a nearly identical person from Seattle or Santa Fe.

Cities with more than one baseball team, like New York or Chicago, show revealing breakdowns by race and gender. The racial split in Chicago between Cubs fans on the North Side and White Sox fans on the South Side is well-documented. In New York, there’s an intriguing gender gap between Mets and Yankee fans, with women gravitating a lot more to the Yanks. While there’s a few theories out there trying to explain that, one obvious answer leaps out: Yankees heartthrob Derek Jeter.

In sports, as in politics, people’s convictions can’t be conveniently reduced to who their parents are or what they look like. But those things are an important foundation, upon which more rational sentiments come into being. Once you’re attached to your team on an emotional level — seeing them as a personal reflection of who you are and what you care about most — a rational exterior comes into being through phrases like “the Red Sox are the best team because they have the most heart” or “the Republicans are the best party because they know how to create jobs.”

Tripon Posted: March 31, 2013 at 10:52 AM | 6544 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 50 of 66 pages ‹ First  < 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 >  Last ›
   4901. Gonfalon B. Posted: April 22, 2013 at 04:55 PM (#4422480)
As with your embarrassing misunderstanding of the word "suspect" last week, you don't seem to understand the way "laughable" is being used.

After the entire American news industry immediately and uniformly began using the word "suspects" on Thursday, as compared to the single news source that was the only one to bungle the term (twice) in the preceding three days, you'd think that a sensible person might have learned a lesson about the correct journalistic use of that word, instead of re-re-re-tearing off a self-inflicted scab. But the above admonition shows that this thought was... was... oh, phooey, does anybody know what you call something "of a kind to provoke laughter or sometimes derision; amusingly ridiculous"?
   4902. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 22, 2013 at 04:57 PM (#4422485)
It's borderline absurd that Florida would need a caseload of less than 10 per full-time attorney.


Since each case requires at least 3 (prosecutor, defense, judge), your pulled out of your ass numbers numbers are off by a factor of at least 3.

edit: Actually, 4, as Florida law requires 2 defense attorneys in a capital case.
   4903. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: April 22, 2013 at 05:06 PM (#4422493)
Speaking of laughable and amusing: While looking up some stuff related to this thread, I discovered that there was once such a thing as Excecution by Elephant.
   4904. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 22, 2013 at 05:08 PM (#4422497)
Since each case requires at least 3 (prosecutor, defense, judge), your pulled out of your ass numbers numbers are off by a factor of at least 3.

edit: Actually, 4, as Florida law requires 2 defense attorneys in a capital case.

What are you talking about? You'd need a lot more than a judge, a prosecutor, and two defense attorneys to rack up $24 million in expenses per execution.
   4905. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 22, 2013 at 05:11 PM (#4422501)
What are you talking about? You'd need a lot more than a judge, a prosecutor, and two defense attorneys to rack up $24 million in expenses per execution.


Joe, even you aren't this dense.
   4906. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: April 22, 2013 at 05:12 PM (#4422506)
I assume folks have seen the Times article detailing the charges filed against Tsarnaev today? Read his rights, charged with the crimes, being tried in civilian court in accordance to his standing as a citizen of the United States. All of that OMG! MIRANDA! stuff from the weekend was cute and all, but compare this reaction to the treatment of Jose Padilla and you'll get a good idea why I continue to support Obama despite his flaws.
   4907. Steve Treder Posted: April 22, 2013 at 05:13 PM (#4422508)
Michael Tomasky's take on the political reaction to the Marathon bombing:

... other conservatives—especially in talk radio; notably Laura Ingraham in an endless trail of tweets—are arguing that the bombings prove that now isn’t the time to be liberalizing our immigration laws. What? These guys were 9 and 16 years old when they came here. What exact change in immigration law would “prevent” two future Tsarnaev brothers from carrying out another bombing? It’s absurd.

Funny thing, this urge to prevent. It’s awfully selective, have you noticed? Tens or perhaps hundreds of thousands of minors—many of them Muslim—have immigrated legally to the United States since 1986, the last time immigration law was substantially changed. Some of them are no doubt reprobates or drunks or criminals, but surely some are cardiologists, inventors, successful capitalists, and innovative artists. But suddenly, these two guys and these two guys alone offer some kind of proof of the need to crack down, to prevent this from happening again. Meanwhile, we have a pile of dead bodies higher than the Himalayas, the vast majority of them slain by native-born Americans who can go online or to a gun show and acquire all the weaponry and ammo they please, but we can’t ever try to do anything to prevent that. The Second Amendment is inviolate. Can’t be touched or impinged upon in any way. To do that is fascism.
   4908. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 22, 2013 at 05:15 PM (#4422512)
What exact change in immigration law would “prevent” two future Tsarnaev brothers from carrying out another bombing? It’s absurd.


Since no law on the books or proposed law would have prevented the bombing, it's absurd to talk about immigration reform.
   4909. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 22, 2013 at 05:17 PM (#4422513)
Joe, even you aren't this dense.

This, from one of the dumbest guys on the board.

Do you even know what your argument is? Fifty (50) attorneys could each be paid an average of $200,000 per successful capital case and there'd still be $14,000,000 left to spend before the alleged $24 million cost was reached. The numbers are massively inflated.
   4910. Greg K Posted: April 22, 2013 at 05:19 PM (#4422515)
In terms of innovative punishment sentences, the Black Mirror episode "White Bear" is pretty interesting.
   4911. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 22, 2013 at 05:20 PM (#4422517)
I assume folks have seen the Times article detailing the charges filed against Tsarnaev today? Read his rights, charged with the crimes, being tried in civilian court in accordance to his standing as a citizen of the United States. All of that OMG! MIRANDA! stuff from the weekend was cute and all,


As I said, I fully support Obama's handling of this, i.e., that the Miranda issue was much ado about nothing no matter which way they decided to go on it, and that Obama should not listen to the crazies on the right who want to treat this guy (a US citizen committing a crime on domestic soil) as an enemy combatant.

Not that the lefties here will remember two seconds after reading this that I supported Obama on this, but whatever.
   4912. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 22, 2013 at 05:22 PM (#4422518)
Do you even know what your argument is?


Yes I do. you on the other hand...

Take all the money spent in Florida since 1976 on capital cases. No, check that. All the money spent above what a non capital case would cost, including the cost of housing each of those defendants for life. Divide that number by the number of people executed. That number is $24 million. Sheesh! Your level of reading comprehension has reached an all time low.
   4913. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 22, 2013 at 05:24 PM (#4422519)
Not that the lefties here will remember I supported Obama on this two seconds from now, but whatever.
Someone give Ray a pat on the head.
   4914. Steve Treder Posted: April 22, 2013 at 05:26 PM (#4422520)
Someone give Ray a pat on the head.

And a cookie.
   4915. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 22, 2013 at 05:27 PM (#4422521)
What exact change in immigration law would “prevent” two future Tsarnaev brothers from carrying out another bombing? It’s absurd.


Ah, so when people on the right asked after Newtown what change in gun laws would "prevent" future Newtowns, their question was deemed illegitimate by the left. But now that the same type of question is asked by the left in response to the right asking for changes in response to a crisis, it's totally cool.

Since no law on the books or proposed law would have prevented the bombing, it's absurd to talk about immigration reform.


Of course, changing our immigration policy might be in order, if not the law. Red flags went up on the older brother and yet the lunatic wasn't deported.

The "they were children" argument is silly, because the older brother wasn't a child when the red flags went up.

Then you have the matter of the younger brother being granted citizenship after his older brother and his father had raised warning signs.
   4916. Gonfalon B. Posted: April 22, 2013 at 05:27 PM (#4422522)
Someone give Ray a pat on the head.

And a cookie.


High four! (It's the next best thing to a high five.)
   4917. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: April 22, 2013 at 05:27 PM (#4422523)
And the rebuttal to that is they are death penalty free because they have less violence, not vice versa.

Edit: I also dispute that Japan is less violent.


Well if you exclude murder the UK is more violent than the US.

And Japan has not yet outlawed the death penalty. There are 135 people on their death row, and the most recent execution were in February 2013.

   4918. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 22, 2013 at 05:29 PM (#4422524)
Of course, changing our immigration policy might be in order, if not the law. Red flags went up on the older brother and yet the lunatic wasn't deported.

The "they were children" argument is silly, because the older brother wasn't a child when the red flags went up.


My comment of course was tongue in cheek. The loonies on the right failing to recognize such hypocrisy though...

But yes, I agree with what you wrote. We need to be more diligent when it comes to resident aliens.
   4919. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 22, 2013 at 05:29 PM (#4422525)
Yes. Take all the money spent in Florida since 1976 on capital cases. No, check that. All the money spent above what a non capital case would cost, including the cost of housing each of those defendants for life. Divide that number by the number of people executed. That number is $24 million. Sheesh! Your level of reading comprehension has reached an all time low.

No, that number is alleged to be $24 million, and I'm pointing out how absurd that estimate is. Even if the two defense attorneys were paid $5 million each, there's still $14 million left to spend before the cost reaches $24 million.

As an example, if a capital case took 10 years from start to finish, a $24 million price tag would come out to almost $7,000 per day. No chance.
   4920. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 22, 2013 at 05:34 PM (#4422530)
No, that number is alleged to be $24 million, and I'm pointing out how absurd that estimate is. Even if the two defense attorneys were paid $5 million each, there's still $14 million left to spend before the cost reaches $24 million.


God, you still don't get it, do you? If you buy 1000 $1 lottery tickets, and one pays you $100, do you say you made $99, or lost $900? You have to count the cost of the unsuccessful, or not yet consummated attempts. This is basic logic.

If the average cost of a capital prosecution is $2.4 million, and on average, 1 in 10 cases prosecuted since 1976 have been seen through to execution, then the average cost per execution is $24 million.
   4921. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 22, 2013 at 05:36 PM (#4422531)
A large number of death penalty cases are taken pro bono.
   4922. Darkness and the howling fantods Posted: April 22, 2013 at 05:37 PM (#4422532)
Of course, changing our immigration policy might be in order, if not the law. Red flags went up on the older brother and yet the lunatic wasn't deported.

The "they were children" argument is silly, because the older brother wasn't a child when the red flags went up.

Obviously, we don't know all the facts yet, but it seems like the red flag was that the Russians told us he was suspicious. I don't think we can have a policy of just deporting anyone a foreign government raises concerns about. If they investigated him and found active contact and engagement with terrorist groups that would be different, but I haven't heard anything like that.
   4923. Publius Publicola Posted: April 22, 2013 at 05:42 PM (#4422536)
You seem a bit pissed off for someone who finds so many things "laughable."


You'll have to excuse Kehoskie about numbers. He doesn't seem to understand yet that the number 90%, as in "harsher penalties will lead to a 90% reduction in recidivism" represents a statistical estimate.

I think I'll take Jack's advice and put Kehoskie on ignore. You realize after awhile when you're debating him you're not talking to an adult. He's kind of like the kid who got caught by his mother, with frosting all over his mouth, insisting he didn't eat it and has no idea what happened to his sister's birthday cake and that it must have been the mailman or the kid next door or his dead grandmother.
   4924. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 22, 2013 at 05:45 PM (#4422540)
If the average cost of a capital prosecution is $2.4 million, and on average, 1 in 10 cases prosecuted since 1976 have been seen through to execution, then the average cost per execution is $24 million.

Unless 90 percent of the capital cases in Florida either end without a death sentence or with death-row inmates having their death sentences overturned, the numbers still aren't working.
   4925. spike Posted: April 22, 2013 at 05:47 PM (#4422542)
Because if we are, you kids seriously have to stop talking about The Weather Underground entirely.

The good folk at the Post have only begun to talk about the Weather Underground
   4926. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 22, 2013 at 05:50 PM (#4422543)
4923. Publius Publicola Posted: April 22, 2013 at 05:42 PM (#4422536)

You'll have to excuse Kehoskie about numbers. He doesn't seem to understand yet that the number 90%, as in "harsher penalties will lead to a 90% reduction in recidivism" represents a statistical estimate.

You're still not admitting you misread #4619? That's funny.

I think I'll take Jack's advice and put Kehoskie on ignore. You realize after awhile when you're debating him you're not talking to an adult. He's kind of like the kid who got caught by his mother, with frosting all over his mouth, insisting he didn't eat it and has no idea what happened to his sister's birthday cake and that it must have been the mailman or the kid next door or his dead grandmother.

After you just got blasted by all sides for your anti-Semitic views, this is even funnier. I can't believe you admitted to being in your 50s. I had you pegged as a college sophomore, at most.
   4927. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 22, 2013 at 05:50 PM (#4422544)
Obviously, we don't know all the facts yet, but it seems like the red flag was that the Russians told us he was suspicious. I don't think we can have a policy of just deporting anyone a foreign government raises concerns about. If they investigated him and found active contact and engagement with terrorist groups that would be different, but I haven't heard anything like that.


No, the reason to deport him wouldn't be "the Russian government told us he was suspicious." We would look at the reasons *why* they said this. And then do further investigation, and keep him under watch, etc. And I did hear that he had certain youtube playlists or whatever that raised more flags.
   4928. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 22, 2013 at 05:51 PM (#4422545)
Unless 90 percent of the capital cases in Florida either end without a death sentence or with death-row inmates having their death sentences overturned, the numbers still aren't working.
Maybe they're just offering an opinion, so the numbers offered don't matter.
   4929. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: April 22, 2013 at 05:54 PM (#4422547)
Well if you exclude murder the UK is more violent than the US.

This is complete nonsense. The UK uses a much broader definition of violent crime than the US.
   4930. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 22, 2013 at 05:56 PM (#4422548)
The good folk at the Post have only begun to talk about the Weather Underground


Whatever the merits of the column as relates to the Boston issue, you're being deceptive in not pointing out that the column was written by someone with a personal connection to the Weather Underground: as the author says in the column, he was 9 years old when the Weather Underground bombed his home in order to target his father.
   4931. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 22, 2013 at 05:56 PM (#4422549)
Unless 90 percent of the capital cases in Florida either end without a death sentence or with death-row inmates having their death sentences overturned, the numbers still aren't working.


That, ladies and gentlemen, is about the closest joe will come to admitting he's wrong.

Anyway, I don't have exact numbers, but consider:

Since 1979, Florida has executed 75 people.

They currently have 500 open capital cases.

Add in an unknown number of commutations, overturned convictions, and plain unsuccessful prosecutions, and the number could easily top 90%.
   4932. Gonfalon B. Posted: April 22, 2013 at 06:25 PM (#4422567)
Florida has executed 75 inmates in the last 34 years. 408 inmates are on death row. Just over 12,000 inmates are serving life sentences instead. Can't find the stats for those who were on trial for life/death sentences but were ruled innocent. The average stay on death row is 13.2 years. In 2012, Florida sentenced 22 convicted criminals to death (California was second with 13, Texas had 9). 24 Florida inmates have had their death sentences overturned, also the highest total in the U.S. Those inmates had spent an average of 8 years on death row.

Last October, a Scripps Newspapers investigation showed that the cost of death row "easily exceeds $1 million per inmate." One example, serial killer David Gore, cost Florida $664,300 while he pursued appeals, and another $210,000 for a second sentencing proceeding; this represents only the known portion of the cost, and does not include salaries for judicial personnel, court security, state prosecutors and Attorney General staffers. Gore was executed last year. Jury selection takes five times longer for death penalty cases, and juries are more likely to be sequestered. Other Scripps estimates were about $1.1 million for an Alfonso Cave, and around $980,000 for a J.B. Parker. An account of their legal travels can be seen here; both Cave and Parker remain on death row.

Death penalty trials are actually a minimum of two trials. After a death sentence, an appeal is automatically filed to the Florida Supreme Court. This process typically takes three years. An average of seven more years is spent litigating post-conviction and collateral appeals in state court. An average case can spend 4-5 years in federal court. The Miami Herald estimated that a life sentence cost Florida one-sixth as much as an execution.

I don't know how this adds up, or who it makes the majestic champion of math and who ends up a sucky loser who can't even count. I'm just offering data up to those who want to play with it.

However, if we can take a quick 2,500-mile detour, the Chief Criminal Judge in Oregon has said, "Whether you're for it or against it [the death penalty], I think the fact is that Oregon simply can't afford it."
   4933. spike Posted: April 22, 2013 at 06:28 PM (#4422570)
And in other, more hilarious news, Mark Sanford takes out full page ad to reveal he doesn't have a good handle on significant dates in American history.
   4934. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 22, 2013 at 06:28 PM (#4422571)
That, ladies and gentlemen, is about the closest joe will come to admitting he's wrong.

Anyway, I don't have exact numbers, but consider:

Since 1979, Florida has executed 75 people.

They currently have 500 open capital cases.

Add in an unknown number of commutations, overturned convictions, and plain unsuccessful prosecutions, and the number could easily top 90%.

Where's Johnny Sycophant to lambaste you for your utter dishonesty?

In a study of the cost of the death penalty, "commutations, overturned convictions, and plain unsuccessful prosecutions" shouldn't be an "unknown number."

Also, there are 405 people on death row in Florida, who represent over 80 percent of the open capital cases. Even if we assume there have been 1,000 capital cases and half of them yielded less than a death sentence after trial, that comes out to ~$2 million each. No chance.

Regardless, how can it cost 10 times more in Florida than in Texas, where the per-execution estimate is $2.3 million?
   4935. zenbitz Posted: April 22, 2013 at 06:31 PM (#4422576)
Regardless, how can it cost 10 times more in Florida than in Texas, where the per-execution estimate is $2.3 million?


JEWS!
   4936. BDC Posted: April 22, 2013 at 06:34 PM (#4422578)
Death penalty trials are actually a minimum of two trials. After a death sentence, an appeal is automatically filed to the Florida Supreme Court

It's an uncomfortable feature of the process that many who escape the death sentence are worse off from a legal perspective. If you get sentenced to life in prison, or a very long sentence, the automatic appeals don't kick in, and you may sometimes sometimes be unfairly tried, even innocent but have not much recourse or support system for your appeals.
   4937. zenbitz Posted: April 22, 2013 at 06:36 PM (#4422579)
Because I am keeping the door open to date Alanis Morrisette, should I become single, I would state for the record that I am against capital punishment.

Seriously though - why bother executing this guy or any other?

Let's assume you get past the uneven representation and the possibility of false conviction. It's probably extremely low in this particular case -- but what is the value to society to keeping the Death Penalty around FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE of those rare cases where "everyone knows he did it".

Bomber boy should sit in prison with photos of the 8 year old he murdered for life. Also, in a perfect world, this case gets arraigned and tried with an absolute total media blackout. He should just be dropped in a hole somewhere and forgotten about for the next 60 years.
   4938. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 22, 2013 at 06:59 PM (#4422589)
Seriously though - why bother executing this guy or any other?


Because we know who he is and what he did. Because some families are having funerals and other families are trying to learn how to help victims get along in life with missing limbs, knowing that their lives will never be the same. Because other families are dealing with head injuries and brain damage and vision loss and physical and emotional scarring. Because some families are dealing with more than one of the above. Because there are 170 people hurt, and 4 people killed, and dozens of people maimed and missing arms or legs or both.

I hope that helps.
   4939. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: April 22, 2013 at 07:00 PM (#4422590)

Because we know who he is and what he did. Because some families are having funerals and other families are trying to learn how to help victims get along in life with missing limbs, knowing that their lives will never be the same. Other families are dealing with head injuries and brain damage and vision loss and physical and emotional scarring. Some families are dealing with more than one of the above.

I hope that helps.

Aaaand executing the guy still won't change any of that.
   4940. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 22, 2013 at 07:02 PM (#4422591)
Aaaand executing the guy still won't change any of that.


Aaand nobody should care that executing the guy won't change any of that.
   4941. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 22, 2013 at 07:04 PM (#4422592)
Aaand nobody should care that executing the guy won't change any of that.
And again, it needs to be asked if we gain nothing by it, why are we doing it?
   4942. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 22, 2013 at 07:05 PM (#4422594)
We gain something. We remove him from this earth.

And perhaps that will help the victims still living and their families. Perhaps it won't. I'm willing to take that chance. Let's see if it helps them. If it has no effect, oh well. We're risking nothing of value.
   4943. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: April 22, 2013 at 07:13 PM (#4422601)
Aaand nobody should care that executing the guy won't change any of that.

Appeal to emotion or argumentum ad passiones is a logical fallacy which uses the manipulation of the recipient's emotions, rather than valid logic, to win an argument. The appeal to emotion fallacy uses emotions as the basis of an argument's position without factual evidence that logically supports the major ideas endorsed by the elicitor of the argument.

You have no actual argument.
   4944. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 22, 2013 at 07:16 PM (#4422604)
It's interesting how so many of the same liberals who recently celebrated the death of Margaret Thatcher and boasted of looking forward to a world without Dick Cheney are aghast, just aghast, at the idea of accelerating the demise of a homicidal maniac.
   4945. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 22, 2013 at 07:21 PM (#4422609)
It's interesting how so many of the same liberals who recently celebrated the death of Margaret Thatcher and boasted of looking forward to a world without Dick Cheney are aghast, just aghast, at the idea of accelerating the demise of a homicidal maniac.


Were any of them agitating for their assassination? Because everyone dies eventually. Except the Wandering Jew.
   4946. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 22, 2013 at 07:27 PM (#4422615)
Were any of them agitating for their assassination? Because everyone dies eventually. Except the Wandering Jew.

Ha ha. Execution after trial is now "assassination"; the 19-year-old bomber is a "boy." It didn't take long for the lefties to resort to their usual games.

Anyone who cheered the death of Thatcher but has expended energy arguing against the death penalty for a homicidal terrorist has some major moral and intellectual deficiencies.
   4947. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 22, 2013 at 07:27 PM (#4422617)
You have no actual argument.


Said from the guy whose stated argument is "it won't bring the victims back or make them whole." Yeah, no sheit. Neither will incarcerating the lunatic. So that can't be relevant to the analysis.
   4948. Darkness and the howling fantods Posted: April 22, 2013 at 07:30 PM (#4422620)
Regardless, how can it cost 10 times more in Florida than in Texas, where the per-execution estimate is $2.3 million?

Because Texas allows defense attorneys to sleep during the trials, and thus doesn't have to pay them as much?
   4949. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 22, 2013 at 07:33 PM (#4422626)
Ha ha. Execution after trial is now "assassination";


Well Margaret Thatcher wasn't on trial for anything, so execution after trial wasn't an option. Similarly, Dick Cheney may be culpable in the deaths of thousands but is not on trial. If you're trying to establish some sort of equivalence then you should try and establish some sort of equivalence. If you want to make hay that "many of the same liberals who recently celebrated the death of Margaret Thatcher and boasted of looking forward to a world without Dick Cheney are aghast, just aghast, at the idea of accelerating the demise of a homicidal maniac" you need to tell me how many of these people were actively demanding the deaths of Thatcher and Cheney, not just passively sitting around waiting to say "good riddance to bad rubbish."

Anyone who cheered the death of Thatcher but has expended energy arguing against the death penalty for a homicidal terrorist has some major moral and intellectual deficiencies.


I don't see why you'd make such a bold and unsupported assertion. I doubt anyone is looking to you for moral and intellectual guidance.
   4950. Lassus Posted: April 22, 2013 at 07:53 PM (#4422648)
It's interesting how so many of the same liberals

BINGO!
   4951. Steve Treder Posted: April 22, 2013 at 07:55 PM (#4422650)
BINGO!

As the cocktail hour approaches ...
   4952. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 22, 2013 at 07:56 PM (#4422654)
Because Texas allows defense attorneys to sleep during the trials, and thus doesn't have to pay them as much?

Appointed counsel in Florida aren't getting rich off death penalty cases. I'd be surprised if the average hourly rate reached $75.

***
I don't see why you'd make such a bold and unsupported assertion. I doubt anyone is looking to you for moral and intellectual guidance.

I doubt Obama & Co. are reading the OT:Politics threads for advice on the issues of the day, but that hasn't stopped this thread from reaching page 50.
   4953. BDC Posted: April 22, 2013 at 07:59 PM (#4422659)
Is it too soon to start criticizing Margaret Thatcher? I did promise nil nisi bonum, but there has to be some statute of limitations on that. She's going to be dead for a long time :)

   4954. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 22, 2013 at 08:01 PM (#4422661)
We gain something. We remove him from this earth.
Putting him in jail for the rest of his life effectively does the same thing.

And perhaps that will help the victims still living and their families. Perhaps it won't. I'm willing to take that chance. Let's see if it helps them. If it has no effect, oh well. We're risking nothing of value.
The risk is what is always is: We willing make ourselves killers.

Anyone who cheered the death of Thatcher but has expended energy arguing against the death penalty for a homicidal terrorist has some major moral and intellectual deficiencies.
Did someone argue for the death penalty for Thatcher and I missed it? Or did that just happen in Joe's head, like everything else he thinks he read?
   4955. Gonfalon B. Posted: April 22, 2013 at 08:01 PM (#4422662)
Florida has executed 75 inmates in the last 34 years. 408 inmates are on death row... The average stay on death row is 13.2 years... I'm just offering data up to those who want to play with it.

Playing with the math myself, it seems a safe bet that Florida has had 800 inmates on its death row since 1979. It's probably more than 1,000, but let's be conservative and make it 800. Executing 75 inmates since 1979 would represent just over 9% of that total. Heck, 75 is only 15% of 75 plus 408.

If so, the contentious 90% estimate has some meat to it. And that's only weighing those who were convicted and sentenced to death-- not any of the other permutations and outcomes.
   4956. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 22, 2013 at 08:03 PM (#4422666)
Did anyone object to criticism of Thatcher? I recall objecting to the ghoulish celebration of her death, but not to critiques of her political career.
   4957. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 22, 2013 at 08:08 PM (#4422671)
Did anyone object to criticism of Thatcher?
Yes, in the "don't do it today" kind of way. Don't critique her career, don't say bad things about her, don't me so mean to her on the day of her death. It spawned a side argument about what was or was not appropriate to speak of on that day. You should have been there. It was fun.
   4958. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 22, 2013 at 08:08 PM (#4422672)
Did someone argue for the death penalty for Thatcher and I missed it? Or did that just happen in Joe's head, like everything else he thinks he read?

For someone who claims to be "bored" with me, you seem to have a weird compulsion to reply to every comment I make here.

***
Playing with the math myself, it seems a safe bet that Florida has had 800 inmates on its death row since 1979. It's probably more than 1,000, but let's be conservative and make it 800. Executing 75 inmates since 1979 would represent just over 9% of that total. Heck, 75 is only 15% of 75 plus 408.

You're claiming over 300 death-row inmates in Florida have had their death sentences overturned since 1979? That seems awfully high.
   4959. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 22, 2013 at 08:11 PM (#4422679)
For someone who claims to be "bored" with me, you seem to have a weird compulsion to reply to every comment I make here.
That was on the other topic. I have 15 minutes to kill before picking up my daughter from piano class, and goading you on this is easy and fun. Besides, you're desperate to mix it up, so just be grateful you have bait to rise to.
   4960. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 22, 2013 at 08:13 PM (#4422685)
   4961. Gonfalon B. Posted: April 22, 2013 at 08:19 PM (#4422698)
You're claiming over 300 death-row inmates in Florida have had their death sentences overturned since 1979? That seems awfully high.

Nooooo... I cited the exact number, 24, earlier on this page (#4932).

75 executed Florida inmates since 1979.
408 Florida inmates currently on death row.
A speculative 317 previous death row inmates since 1979 (average stay on death row = 13.2 years).
Total: 800.

75 is 9% of 800 (75 plus 408 plus 317).
75 is 15% of 483 (75 + 408).

Where are you seeing a 300?
   4962. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 22, 2013 at 08:25 PM (#4422704)
Where did the "speculative 317 additional death row inmates since 1979" go if they weren't executed and their death sentences weren't overturned?

Where are you seeing a 300?

You said, "Playing with the math myself, it seems a safe bet that Florida has had 800 inmates on its death row since 1979." If there are 405 on death row now and 75 have been executed, that leaves about 300 death-row inmates unaccounted for. What happened to them? Did 300 condemned killers die on death row before they could be executed?
   4963. zenbitz Posted: April 22, 2013 at 08:38 PM (#4422722)
Heres another systemic problem with capital punishment. If you reserve it only for the worst of the worst (like bomber guy) then you are forced, both socially and legally to draw a bright line between life and death, in a real world where facts and evidence are by matter of what they are, incomplete and fuzzy.

It's kinda of like a baseball hof line. There are no brainers and small hall guys, but now we are not talking about a plaque in upstate ny, but killing someone (in a non threatening situation -- i mean we all agree the bomber guy is never going to be allowed to threaten anyone agan).

If you have a fuzzy line, and due to reality being fuzzy, you HAVE to, someone is, statisctially going to be the Jim Rice.
   4964. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: April 22, 2013 at 08:39 PM (#4422725)
God, you still don't get it, do you? If you buy 1000 $1 lottery tickets, and one pays you $100, do you say you made $99, or lost $900? You have to count the cost of the unsuccessful, or not yet consummated attempts. This is basic logic.

And yet if you interviewed 1000 people who were in that situation, it's likely that half of them would describe themselves as "ahead" overall, especially if you asked them right after they cashed that one winning ticket. You have to think like Karl Rove on election night to be dumb enough to play the lottery.
   4965. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: April 22, 2013 at 08:40 PM (#4422727)
No, the reason to deport him wouldn't be "the Russian government told us he was suspicious." We would look at the reasons *why* they said this. And then do further investigation, and keep him under watch, etc. And I did hear that he had certain youtube playlists or whatever that raised more flags.


The FBI did investigate him, conducted wiretapping, interviewed him and his acquaintances.
   4966. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 22, 2013 at 08:47 PM (#4422747)
Gentlemen, Say hello to your impending nationwide Internet sales tax!

Which party is pushing this? The one that controls the Senate, it seems.
   4967. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 22, 2013 at 09:05 PM (#4422773)
It's interesting how so many of the same liberals who recently celebrated the death of Margaret Thatcher and boasted of looking forward to a world without Dick Cheney are aghast, just aghast, at the idea of accelerating the demise of a homicidal maniac.


Feel free to find and quote all the posts of me celebrating anyone's death.

And I think it hysterically funny folks are trying to argue with "Numbers" Kehoskie. The man is a wizard, he doesn't need to actually do research, he can look at the top line and know things are wrong with the figures, he can tell when (for example) polls are skewed.

Seriously though Joe you need something more than "gee it looks funny", I mean when it came to the polls last election at least there were entertaining theories why everything was wrong, here it just looks wrong.

You have to think like Karl Rove on election night to be dumb enough to play the lottery.


Hey now! I play occasionally. You just have to get more entertainment from the daydream about winning than that one ticket every once in a while costs you. But yeah, don't count on winning or anything.
   4968. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: April 22, 2013 at 09:11 PM (#4422780)
Gentlemen, Say hello to your impending nationwide Internet sales tax!


Which party is pushing this? The one that controls the Senate, it seems.

Since it passed by 3 to 1, it doesn't seem like the work of just one party. And even if it makes it through the House and gets signed by Obama, it only applies to businesses doing $1,000,000 or more a year in online sales.
   4969. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: April 22, 2013 at 09:11 PM (#4422782)
Said from the guy whose stated argument is "it won't bring the victims back or make them whole." Yeah, no sheit. Neither will incarcerating the lunatic. So that can't be relevant to the analysis.

That wasn't my argument. That was my response to your empty argument.

My argument against the death penalty is that by locking him up, we remove any further threat to society, and provide a deterrent for anybody who might do similar in the future. And beyond that killing him serves only one purpose< our satisfaction.

Taking joy from the death or suffering of another person, moves us closer to the one we have condemned. We lose a piece of ourselves. It is not for his sake that I oppose the death penalty, it is for ours.
   4970. GregD Posted: April 22, 2013 at 09:18 PM (#4422791)
And in other, more hilarious news, Mark Sanford takes out full page ad to reveal he doesn't have a good handle on significant dates in American history.
Whoa. Didn't someone take a look at it? You might think that in South Carolina of all places someone would have some sense of what was going on in 1863, and it wasn't the battle of the Alamo.
   4971. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 22, 2013 at 09:19 PM (#4422793)
Feel free to find and quote all the posts of me celebrating anyone's death.

I never said you celebrated Thatcher's death. You're turning into a long-winded version of Lassus.
   4972. Dale Sams Posted: April 22, 2013 at 09:19 PM (#4422794)
Gentlemen, Say hello to your impending nationwide Internet sales tax!


So...back to buying games at the store then?

Or do I just say #### it and cannonball into Pirate Bay?
   4973. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: April 22, 2013 at 09:22 PM (#4422795)
Feel free to find and quote all the posts of me celebrating anyone's death.


That comment from Joe was a lob at me. I said I'd celebrate the day Dick Cheney dies, and I most likely will. In addition, barring execution by the state, I will also raise a glass when Tsarnaev dies. What I won't celebrate is my government killing someone who isn't posing an immediate and direct danger to the citizens of the United States. Tsarnaev poses no danger to anyone any more. Thus, we should not kill him. If he had been killed along with his brother as he was endangering the streets of Boston, that would have been fine.

Dick Cheney should be tried for war crimes and the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians. He should not be executed by the state for those crimes.
   4974. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 22, 2013 at 09:26 PM (#4422802)
Dick Cheney should be tried for war crimes and the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians. He should not be executed by the state for those crimes.

Cheney is a war criminal for prosecuting a war that had broad bipartisan support and broad bipartisan Congressional authorization?
   4975. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: April 22, 2013 at 09:28 PM (#4422805)
Cheney is a war criminal for prosecuting a war that had broad bipartisan support and authorization?


Cheney's a war criminal for directly breaking federal and international law and torturing captives in his authority.
   4976. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 22, 2013 at 09:32 PM (#4422809)
Cheney's a war criminal for directly breaking federal and international law and torturing captives in his authority.

That was a quick shifting of the goalposts. What happened to all those Iraqi civilians? Next you'll want him prosecuted for jaywalking.
   4977. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 22, 2013 at 09:36 PM (#4422817)
In a study of the cost of the death penalty, "commutations, overturned convictions, and plain unsuccessful prosecutions" shouldn't be an "unknown number."


It's an unknown number to me, because I haven't bothered to look it up. And why haven't I done that extra work? Because my point is already made. As you say, 408 inmates currently on death row. 75 is 15.5% of 483. You scoffed that there could be fewer than 10%. We know the absolute highest it could be is 15.5%, and is likely quite a bit lower. Certainly there have been some acquittals, successful appeals, commutations, and overturned verdicts. Does it really matter if that moves the number downto 13%, 10%, or 8%? Does it really prove your point that $24 million is "laughable" if the final exact number is 12% of cases ultimately executed rather than 10%? Not that 10% is any hard and fast line anyway. It's merely a number I used for illustration because you couldn't grasp the general concept of lumping the costs of all attempts (successful and unsuccessful) together to get a final average cost per success.
   4978. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: April 22, 2013 at 09:38 PM (#4422821)
That was a quick shifting of the goalposts. What happened to all those Iraqi civilians?


The conjunction I used was "and", Joe. Read more carefully, boy.
   4979. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 22, 2013 at 09:39 PM (#4422822)
That comment from Joe was a lob at me.


Well it included you, but the actual verbiage was "liberals" which means more than one. But hey whatever, I find it annoying (in the yapping dog sense) when he goes off on "liberals".

Back to number crunching Joe!
   4980. Gonfalon B. Posted: April 22, 2013 at 09:40 PM (#4422825)
#4962: Where did the "speculative 317 additional death row inmates since 1979" go if they weren't executed and their death sentences weren't overturned?
You said, "Playing with the math myself, it seems a safe bet that Florida has had 800 inmates on its death row since 1979." If there are 405 on death row now and 75 have been executed, that leaves about 300 death-row inmates unaccounted for.


Yeah, since 1979.

1979 is 34 years ago. The average death row stay in Florida is 13.2 years in length. And it's not as if they inaugurated death row with its first resident on January 1, 1979. But let's use 1979.

Inmates commonly die while on death row. Death sentences are commuted. Death sentences are reduced to life imprisonment (or less) on appeal. Convictions are overturned. You say they're "unaccounted for"-- that's only because there's no tally or a breakdown for them (not one easily findable online, anyway). That doesn't mean there haven't been such people since the mid-1970s, people who were once on death row and have since left it in some fashion without being executed. Or do you think they're still whittling down the original group?

The additional 317 number, spread out over three and a half decades, is conservative. Doubling the current population's average stay on death row gets you 26.4 years' worth of a 34-year period.

317 was only chosen to make the total a round 800. It's probably too low. But let's pretend the "unaccounted for" number really is 0. Does zero work for you? If every single inmate who has ever been on Florida's death row since 1979 is either there in a cell right now, or has been executed, then the state's rate of execution is 15%.

That's the ceiling. It doesn't include any previous death row inmate (including the 24 exonerations we know about), it doesn't include anyone who was up for the death penalty but got life, and it doesn't include anyone who was up for the death penalty but was found not guilty. And it's an 85% non-execution rate. And the taxpayer meter is ticking for all of them at once.
   4981. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 22, 2013 at 09:47 PM (#4422829)
anyway. It's merely a number I used for illustration because you couldn't grasp the general concept of lumping the costs of all attempts (successful and unsuccessful) together.

No, I grasped that. I just disputed that the average cost of the unsuccessful cases could come anywhere close to the average cost of the successful cases.

Earlier on this page, someone posted the post-conviction costs of a few executed murderers. One was about $600,000; another was over $1 million. If only 24 death sentences have been overturned in Florida out of the 400-plus convicts on death row, where's all that other money going? If it's costing $600,000 or $1 million post-conviction, it can't be costing $2– or $3– or $4 million pre-conviction, can it? I suppose it's possible, but it seems unlikely, particularly if post-conviction appeals are the most costly expense (as per various articles on the topic).
   4982. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 22, 2013 at 09:50 PM (#4422836)
Inmates commonly die while on death row.


Excellent point. I hadn't thought of that, and leads me to believe that the number is well below 10%. Of course, is reactionary talk, death by natural causes while on death row counts as a success. Much like gun suicides don't count as gun violence here, but suicides in general mean Japan is more violent than the US.
   4983. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 22, 2013 at 09:50 PM (#4422838)
No, I grasped that. I just disputed that the average cost of the unsuccessful cases could come anywhere close to the average cost of the successful cases.


Apparently you still aren't getting it.
   4984. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 22, 2013 at 09:52 PM (#4422841)
The conjunction I used was "and", Joe. Read more carefully, boy.

Before the "and," you said:

Cheney's a war criminal for directly breaking federal and international law

In what way(s) did Cheney "break federal and international law" by prosecuting a war that was explicitly authorized by a broad bipartisan act of Congress?
   4985. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 22, 2013 at 09:53 PM (#4422842)
If only 24 death sentences have been overturned in Florida out of the 400-plus convicts on death row, where's all that other money going? If it's costing $600,000 or $1 million post-conviction, it can't be costing $2– or $3– or $4 million pre-conviction, can it?


Yes it can. Someone posted that earlier, that the majority of the costs come in the initial trial and pre-trial phases.
   4986. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: April 22, 2013 at 09:54 PM (#4422844)
Before the "and," you said:


Wrong "and," chief.

The war crime was the torture.
   4987. Gonfalon B. Posted: April 22, 2013 at 09:57 PM (#4422846)
Earlier on this page, someone posted the post-conviction costs of a few executed murderers.

Yeah, that'd be me.

One was about $600,000; another was over $1 million.

No, one was $875,000, another was over $1 million, and a third was at $980,000. All three cost estimates were incomplete.

Last October, a Scripps Newspapers investigation showed that the cost of death row "easily exceeds $1 million per inmate." One example, serial killer David Gore, cost Florida $664,300 while he pursued appeals, and another $210,000 for a second sentencing proceeding; this represents only the known portion of the cost, and does not include salaries for judicial personnel, court security, state prosecutors and Attorney General staffers... Other Scripps estimates were about $1.1 million for an Alfonso Cave, and around $980,000 for a J.B. Parker.

EDIT: It's worth noting that Cave and Parker were convicted for the same crime; their separate appeals are therefore costing Florida double the usual price.
   4988. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 22, 2013 at 09:58 PM (#4422848)
Yeah, since 1979.

1979 is 34 years ago. The average death row stay in Florida is 13.2 years in length. And it's not as if they inaugurated death row with its first resident on January 1, 1979. But let's use 1979.

This is just a repeat of your claim, without an explanation.

The only ways off death row are to escape, die, be executed, or have the death sentence overturned or commuted. You seem to be assuming that 317 convicted killers either died on death row or had their death sentence commuted. That seems like a very high number, and one for which you've offered no supporting evidence.

EDIT: There have reportedly been only six commutations of a Florida death sentence since 1979, so that leaves 311 death-row inmates still unaccounted for.
   4989. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 22, 2013 at 10:04 PM (#4422855)
Wrong "and," chief.

The war crime was the torture.

OK. I guess you're conceding that your line about prosecuting Cheney for "the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians" was nonsense. (You're not alleging that Cheney tortured "hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians" to death, are you?)

***
Well it included you, but the actual verbiage was "liberals" which means more than one

No, the "actual verbiage" was "many of the same liberals," which only included you if you imagined yourself to be included.
   4990. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 22, 2013 at 10:19 PM (#4422869)
Dick Cheney should be tried for war crimes and the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians.

More likely that Sam Hutcheson is prosecuted for making threats over the Internet. That is an actual crime.
   4991. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 22, 2013 at 10:24 PM (#4422876)
Watch out! If Sam thinks you're trying to "Google-bomb" him, you might be the recipient of one of those threats.

Anyway, back to Florida's death row, 26 executions occurred from 1998 to 2008, while 26 others died on death row during that same time. That still leaves 285 unaccounted for, if Gonfalon's theory is correct.
   4992. Kiko Sakata Posted: April 22, 2013 at 10:25 PM (#4422877)
According to this, 30 death row inmates have died of natural causes in Florida since 2000 (vs. 25 executions). This link appears to list death row inmates who died on death row (by reasons other than execution) for all states. I'm not interested enough to scroll through and pick out the ones from Florida (nor do I know how comprehensive this list is).
   4993. SteveF Posted: April 22, 2013 at 10:28 PM (#4422881)
In Florida, the death penalty doesn't always mean death by execution. Heart disease, fatal ailments and suicide are just as likely to kill. Between March 1998 and November 2008, the Department of Corrections executed 26 prisoners. During that same period, another 26 Death Row inmates died of other causes, the Orlando Sentinel found. Source

The Florida Department of Corrections provided PolitiFact Florida with a list of 55 inmates who died on death row starting Jan. 1, 2000. Thirty of the 55 somehow died while awaiting their sentence (the state does not describe the nature of a person's death), and 25 were executed. Source

Data from California:

Since 1978, when California reinstated capital punishment, 58 death row inmates have died from natural causes, 22 have committed suicide, 13 have been executed in California, one was executed in Missouri, and six have died from other causes. There are 733 inmates remaining on death row.
Source

That's all I've been able to find so far.

Edit: Beaten by Kiko and Joe K both!
   4994. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 22, 2013 at 10:35 PM (#4422891)
Anyway, back to Florida's death row, 26 executions occurred from 1998 to 2008, while 26 others died on death row during that same time. That still leaves 285 unaccounted for.


So what? You lost. Again, whether it's 15% successful (the absolute max), or 10%, or something in between is immaterial to the larger point. You're like a guy arguing that you really did get the first down when there's 20 seconds left and you're down by 3 scores. It's over. It's always been over.
   4995. Gonfalon B. Posted: April 22, 2013 at 10:37 PM (#4422894)
This is just a repeat of your claim, without an explanation.

The only ways off death row are to escape, die, be executed, or have the death sentence overturned or commuted. You seem to be assuming that 317 convicted killers either died on death row or had their death sentence commuted. That seems like a very high number, and one for which you've offered no supporting evidence.

There have reportedly been only six commutations of a Florida death sentence since 1979, so that leaves 311 death-row inmates still unaccounted for.
...
26 executions occurred from 1998 to 2008, while 26 others died on death row during that same time. That still leaves 285 unaccounted for, if Gonfalon's theory is correct.



Don't undersell me. What I actually said was, "It's probably more than 1,000, but let's be conservative and make it 800." (By adding 317.)

Oh, look! Here's a list of Florida's death sentences by year.

Unfortunately, it only goes through 2001.

Even more unfortunately for you, the total from 1972-2001 is 866. Adding 2012 gets us to 888.

If you want the exact total, you can do the homework for the missing decade in between. A wise man once wrote, "It's probably more than 1,000."

We should go to the track sometime. I have a hunch I could get rich betting against your hunches.
   4996. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 22, 2013 at 10:41 PM (#4422895)
So what? You lost. Again, whether it's 15% successful (the absolute max), or 10%, or something in between is immaterial to the larger point. You're like a guy arguing that you really did get the first down when there's 20 seconds left and you're down by 3 scores. It's over. It's always been over.

How do you figure? There are 405 people currently on Florida's death row, and there have been just 30 commutations and reversals in recent decades (per Gonfalon's comments). Empirical evidence suggests that people on Florida's death row shouldn't be making long-term plans.
   4997. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 22, 2013 at 10:45 PM (#4422899)
Don't undersell me. What I actually said was, "It's probably more than 1,000, but let's be conservative and make it 800." (By adding 317.)

Oh, look! Here's a list of Florida's death sentences by year.

Unfortunately, it only goes through 2001.

Even more unfortunately for you, the total from 1972-2001 is 866. Adding 2012 gets us to 888.

If you want the exact total, you can do the homework for the missing decade in between. A wise man once wrote, "It's probably more than 1,000."

Interesting, except it massively conflicts with your prior claim that only 24 Florida death sentences have been reversed (and the fact that only six death sentences have been commuted since 1979). How do you reconcile those conflicting numbers? Are you retracting several of your prior comments?

(By the way, we've been talking about 1979 to the present. Not sure why you're suddenly adding in almost the entire decade of the 1970s.)
   4998. Gonfalon B. Posted: April 22, 2013 at 10:46 PM (#4422900)
Seriously? Are you still talking?
   4999. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 22, 2013 at 10:52 PM (#4422903)
How do you figure? There are 405 people currently on Florida's death row, and there have been just 30 commutations and reversals in recent decades. Empirical evidence suggests that people on Florida's death row shouldn't be making long-term plans.


Empirical evidence suggests that most of those people will die on death row of suicide or natural causes. Empirical evidence suggests that the state could have saved a whole shitton of money by choosing to impose a life sentence rather than the death penalty. Empirical evidence suggests that it's a whole lot more expensive trying to execute somebody rather than incarcerating them for a long, long time. That's the entire point.
   5000. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 22, 2013 at 10:53 PM (#4422904)
Seriously? Are you still talking?

Are you still dodging?
Page 50 of 66 pages ‹ First  < 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 >  Last ›

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
aleskel
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogOT: Monthly NBA Thread- July 2014
(889 - 2:58pm, Jul 24)
Last: Gold Star - just Gold Star

NewsblogOMNICHATTER: 7-24-14
(25 - 2:57pm, Jul 24)
Last: mathesond

NewsblogYadier Molina serves his brother crackers on a plate — home plate
(18 - 2:57pm, Jul 24)
Last: clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right

NewsblogAs shifts suppress offense, time has come to consider a rule change
(84 - 2:56pm, Jul 24)
Last: Benji Gil Gamesh Rises

NewsblogOTP - July 2014: Republicans Lose To Democrats For Sixth Straight Year In Congressional Baseball Game
(2967 - 2:55pm, Jul 24)
Last: A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose)

NewsblogCSN: Enough is enough — time to move on from Ryan Howard
(64 - 2:45pm, Jul 24)
Last: JE (Jason Epstein)

Newsblog2015 Competitive Balance Lottery Results
(25 - 2:41pm, Jul 24)
Last: Ziggy

NewsblogBuck Showalter, Tommy Hunter bemoan shrinking strike zone in Orioles loss
(7 - 2:27pm, Jul 24)
Last: John DiFool2

NewsblogSports Reference Blog: 1901-02 Orioles Removed from Yankees History
(41 - 2:12pm, Jul 24)
Last: Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB)

NewsblogJournal News: Recap of Derek Jeter Retirement Gifts
(28 - 1:52pm, Jul 24)
Last: Benji Gil Gamesh Rises

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 7-24-2014
(7 - 1:32pm, Jul 24)
Last: Greasy Neale Heaton (Dan Lee)

NewsblogOT: The Soccer Thread July, 2014
(378 - 12:38pm, Jul 24)
Last: Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14!

NewsblogGeorge "The Animal" Steele Mangles A Baseball
(133 - 12:04pm, Jul 24)
Last: Tubbs & Minnie Miñoso don't fear Sid Monge

NewsblogFivethirtyeight: Billion-Dollar Billy Beane
(6 - 12:00pm, Jul 24)
Last: Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer

NewsblogMLB: Tarp problems at Yankee Stadium
(28 - 11:59am, Jul 24)
Last: Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October

Page rendered in 1.1501 seconds
52 querie(s) executed