Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Sunday, March 31, 2013

OTP: April 2013: Daily Caller: Baseball and the GOP: To rebrand the party, think like a sports fan

This week’s GOP autopsy report, commissioned by RNC Chairman Reince Priebus, is a great start in the much-needed task of rebranding the Republican Party. As the chairman acknowledged, “the way we communicate our principles isn’t resonating widely enough” and “we have to be more inclusive.” The report contains 219 recommendations to “connect people to our principles.” To achieve that goal, the party will need a strategic vision of how voters think about politics, which is something that the report lacks. For that, the GOP can learn a lot from another American passion: baseball.

This year, about 75 million Americans will go to the baseball stadium to watch a ballgame, about the same number as those who will vote in next year’s election. We rarely think about why someone becomes a baseball fan, or why they root for a certain team. Nor do we usually think about why someone chooses to vote for a certain political party. But it’s actually a very useful exercise.

When it comes to baseball, fan loyalty has almost nothing to do with the brain, and almost everything to do with the heart. In all of history, there’s never been a baseball fan who rooted for his team because it had the lowest ticket prices, or because it had the most taxpayer-friendly stadium deal, or because its players did the most community service. For the vast majority of Americans, rooting for a baseball team — not to mention, voting for a political party — isn’t really a rational choice; it’s more of a statement of personal identity — a statement telling the world, “This is who I am.” And for most people, defining “who I am” starts with family and community, before branching out into areas like race, age, gender, and class.

Family is pretty straightforward. If your mom and dad are Yankee fans, you’re almost certainly a Yankee fan. The same is true in politics. If your mom and dad are Republicans, you’re almost certainly a Republican.

Community is also pretty straightforward. If you grew up in, say, Philadelphia, chances are pretty great you’re a Phillies fan. Likewise, someone who grew up in Republican territory like, say, suburban Dallas or rural Indiana is much more likely to become a Republican than a nearly identical person from Seattle or Santa Fe.

Cities with more than one baseball team, like New York or Chicago, show revealing breakdowns by race and gender. The racial split in Chicago between Cubs fans on the North Side and White Sox fans on the South Side is well-documented. In New York, there’s an intriguing gender gap between Mets and Yankee fans, with women gravitating a lot more to the Yanks. While there’s a few theories out there trying to explain that, one obvious answer leaps out: Yankees heartthrob Derek Jeter.

In sports, as in politics, people’s convictions can’t be conveniently reduced to who their parents are or what they look like. But those things are an important foundation, upon which more rational sentiments come into being. Once you’re attached to your team on an emotional level — seeing them as a personal reflection of who you are and what you care about most — a rational exterior comes into being through phrases like “the Red Sox are the best team because they have the most heart” or “the Republicans are the best party because they know how to create jobs.”

Tripon Posted: March 31, 2013 at 10:52 AM | 6544 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 51 of 66 pages ‹ First  < 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 >  Last ›
   5001. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 22, 2013 at 10:56 PM (#4422905)
Empirical evidence suggests that most of those people will die on death row of suicide or natural causes. Empirical evidence suggests that the state could have saved a whole shitton of money by choosing to impose a life sentence rather than the death penalty. Empirical evidence suggests that it's a whole lot more expensive trying to execute somebody rather than incarcerating them for a long, long time. That's the entire point.

Actually, no. Empirical evidence suggests that one person dies on death row for each person executed. That still leaves about 300 (alleged) death-row inmates unaccounted for, unless Gonfalon posted false info. re: the number of death sentences that are overturned.
   5002. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 22, 2013 at 10:56 PM (#4422906)
Are you still dodging?


You're doing a pretty fine job of it yourself. You've essentially gone from "It's laughable that it costs nearly so much" to "It's gotta be a tiny bit smaller than you suggest" and somehow claiming that as a victory.
   5003. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 22, 2013 at 10:58 PM (#4422908)
You're doing a pretty fine job of it yourself. You've essentially gone from "It's laughable that it costs nearly so much" to "It's gotta be a tiny bit smaller than you suggest" and somehow claiming that as a victory.

You're still claiming that Florida is spending TEN TIMES as much to execute a murderer as Texas and several other states? That's funny.
   5004. Lassus Posted: April 22, 2013 at 10:59 PM (#4422909)
Are you still dodging?

Gonfalon doesn't dodge. He's not dodging about this at all. He didn't dodge when talking about Bloom County. I'm still a bit shaken.
   5005. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 22, 2013 at 10:59 PM (#4422911)
Actually, no. Empirical evidence suggests that one person dies on death row for each person executed. That still leaves about 300 (alleged) death-row inmates unaccounted for, unless Gonfalon posted false info. re: the number of death sentences that are overturned.


And unless those currently on death row live to be about 200, that ratio will go way up. Because it's taken the state 35 years do do away with a mere 75.
   5006. zenbitz Posted: April 22, 2013 at 11:00 PM (#4422915)
i have another anti death penalty nugget here: What IF bomber dude (not going to dignify him with his real name) heals up and just says "My brother told me they were smoke bombs. It was just a prank" Of course, this is not particularly credible - but barring any DIRECT evidence to the contrary, that doesn't make him much worse on the moral scale than criminally negligent fertilizer plant owner. I mean, yes, SOMEWHAT greater degree.

He's sorry, he breaks down, he tries repeatedly to commit suicide - according to his school chums, he's pretty good at hiding his sociopathic nature... maybe he's very convincing.

So, probably he he just making a story up (or going along with his lawyer) -- of course ladies and gentlemen of the BBTF Kangaroo Court you are still going to convict him of various murder charges. But does the *slight* possibility of him being not an inhuman sociopathic monster get him Life in Prison instead??

I am sure this doesn't sway anyone. But there is is.
   5007. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 22, 2013 at 11:03 PM (#4422916)
You're still claiming that Florida is spending TEN TIMES as much to execute a murderer as Texas and several other states?


Take it up with the Palm Beach post. They did the study. Along with 5 other studies cited, from 5 different sources, about 5 different states. Have you ever heard of a study that shows it's cheaper to execute someone than incarcerate them for life? If so, show me your data. Or is it all up your ass?

   5008. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 22, 2013 at 11:03 PM (#4422919)
We gain something. We remove him from this earth.

Putting him in jail for the rest of his life effectively does the same thing.


Not at all. WTF are you talking about?

And perhaps that will help the victims still living and their families. Perhaps it won't. I'm willing to take that chance. Let's see if it helps them. If it has no effect, oh well. We're risking nothing of value.

The risk is what is always is: We willing make ourselves killers.


But not murderers. So it's all good.
   5009. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 22, 2013 at 11:05 PM (#4422921)
And unless those currently on death row live to be about 200, that ratio will go way up.

Well, Gonfalon keeps telling us that the average stay on Florida's death row is 13 years, so if they're not being executed, and they're not dying, and the courts aren't overturning very many of their sentences (as per Gonfalon's repeated claims), then it seems we have a whole lot of death-row inmates disappearing without a trace. Someone should alert the authorities.
   5010. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 22, 2013 at 11:08 PM (#4422923)
(By the way, we've been talking about 1979 to the present. Not sure why you're suddenly adding in almost the entire decade of the 1970s.)

I already pointed out that they didn't cut the ribbon inaugurating Florida's death row on January 1, 1979. The first inmate executed that year had been sentenced in 1976.

Joe, I had already offered you a speculative estimate based on ZERO additional inmates. But you couldn't accept zero, could you? Zero wasn't a good enough offer to you.

And so I went and found that website. And now your hunch has been atomized.

But because my heart is full of mercy and kindness, hey, let's NOT "suddenly" "add in" the decade of the 1970s. Let's remove every inmate who'd been sentenced to death from 1978 or before.

The total is now 706 (through 2001).

Let's assume a low, low 10 death sentences a year from 2002-2011. Sadly, we know there were 22 last year. What has been seen cannot be unseen.

New total: 828.

New rate of execution: 9%.

Are you still dodging?

Does dodging involve doing the Gangnam Style dance on your face while pissing? If so, then yes, I am dodging.
   5011. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 22, 2013 at 11:08 PM (#4422924)
Taking joy from the death or suffering of another person, moves us closer to the one we have condemned. We lose a piece of ourselves. It is not for his sake that I oppose the death penalty, it is for ours.


Who said anyone would "take joy" from it? It's something we would do in order to rid ourselves of him once and for all. Like flushing the toilet after using it.
   5012. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 22, 2013 at 11:10 PM (#4422925)
You're turning into a long-winded version of Lassus.


And thankfully Lassus keeps it short. "BINGO!" doesn't take much time to skip past.
   5013. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 22, 2013 at 11:11 PM (#4422927)
Well, Gonfalon keeps telling us that the average stay on Florida's death row is 13 years, so if they're not being executed, and they're not dying, and the courts aren't overturning very many of their sentences (as per Gonfalon's repeated claims), then it seems we have a whole lot of death-row inmates disappearing without a trace. Someone should alert the authorities.


There are over 400 inmates on death row. Florida has taken 35 years to execute 75, only 8 in the last 5. I don't care what GB said or how you twisted his words, those are facts. At the current rate, it will take Florida 250 years to execute all 400 current death row inmates. I have absolute confidence that the vast majority will die of natural causes in prison, same as if they got life, only at a much higher cost to the taxpayers.

   5014. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 22, 2013 at 11:12 PM (#4422928)
Have you ever heard of a study that shows it's cheaper to execute someone than incarcerate them for life? If so, show me your data. Or is it all up your ass?

I never argued it was cheaper. I simply disputed the "$24 million per execution" claim.

It's funny that the liberals suddenly become fiscal hawks when it comes to the death penalty. That's usually my role, but in the spirit of bipartisanship, I'm happy to consider any excess cost as "stimulus."

***
New total: 828.

So where did they all go? You keep telling us that only 24 death sentences have been reversed, and we know there have been 75 executions and only six commutations. We're back to the mysterious case of the 300 missing death-row inmates.
   5015. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 22, 2013 at 11:13 PM (#4422929)
That comment from Joe was a lob at me. I said I'd celebrate the day Dick Cheney dies, and I most likely will.


In saying this I'm not taking a position on it, but Christopher Hitchens certainly thought this was appropriate, as he was pleased the day Jerry Falwell died.

In addition, barring execution by the state, I will also raise a glass when Tsarnaev dies. What I won't celebrate is my government killing someone who isn't posing an immediate and direct danger to the citizens of the United States. Tsarnaev poses no danger to anyone any more. Thus, we should not kill him.


Again, that makes no sense. If we kill him he will pose no danger either. So that can't be what the analysis turns on. My appeal to emotion is a far stronger argument.
   5016. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 22, 2013 at 11:13 PM (#4422930)
See this thread is so much better when Joe and Ray get all frothed up. Ray's act is a bit stale at the moment, but Joe K is in good form. He never admits he is wrong*, but endlessly shifts his argument and restates his opponents argument in the most ridiculous way possible and argues that (and still loses sometimes, which is troubling).

Anyway I am off to bed, but please continue to dazzle I will read and catch up in the morning.

Oh yeah, #4990 is tacky. Very poor form. Boo.
   5017. Manny Coon Posted: April 22, 2013 at 11:14 PM (#4422931)
i have another anti death penalty nugget here: What IF bomber dude (not going to dignify him with his real name) heals up and just says "My brother told me they were smoke bombs. It was just a prank" Of course, this is not particularly credible - but barring any DIRECT evidence to the contrary, that doesn't make him much worse on the moral scale than criminally negligent fertilizer plant owner. I mean, yes, SOMEWHAT greater degree.

He's sorry, he breaks down, he tries repeatedly to commit suicide - according to his school chums, he's pretty good at hiding his sociopathic nature... maybe he's very convincing.

So, probably he he just making a story up (or going along with his lawyer) -- of course ladies and gentlemen of the BBTF Kangaroo Court you are still going to convict him of various murder charges. But does the *slight* possibility of him being not an inhuman sociopathic monster get him Life in Prison instead??

I am sure this doesn't sway anyone. But there is is.


Terry Nichols avoided the death penalty by claiming McVeigh bullied him into helping, I'm sure this bomber could make pretty plausible claim that he was as well. Rudolph and Kaczynski both avoided the death penalty by pleading guilty, should this guy be given the same opportunity?
   5018. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 22, 2013 at 11:15 PM (#4422934)
It's funny that the liberals suddenly become fiscal hawks when it comes to the death penalty.


Translation: I give up, you won.
   5019. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 22, 2013 at 11:19 PM (#4422935)
So where did they all go? You keep telling us that only 24 death sentences have been reversed, and we know there have been 75 executions and only six commutations. [EDIT:] We're back to the mysterious case of the 300 missing death-row inmates.

Heeeeyyyy, sexy lady!

Oop! Oop, oop, oop!

Oppan Gangnam Style!
   5020. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 22, 2013 at 11:26 PM (#4422938)
See this thread is so much better when Joe and Ray get all frothed up. Ray's act is a bit stale

LOL. Physician, heal thyself.

***
Translation: I give up, you won.

I just want to know where those 300 missing death-row inmates went. Is that too much to ask?

Gonfalon's the one insisting that only 24 death sentences were reversed. Was that bad info.?
   5021. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 22, 2013 at 11:31 PM (#4422940)
New total: 828.


So where did they all go? You keep telling us that only 24 death sentences have been reversed, and we know there have been 75 executions and only six commutations. We're back to the mysterious case of the 300 missing death-row inmates.


Don't know. Presumably most died of natural causes. It's been over 35 years after all. I fail to see your point. Are you alleging that:

a) The reported number of death row inmates is wrong, or
b) The reported number of executions is wrong, or
c) The reported number of new convictions is wrong, or
d) the reported number of reversals and commutations is wrong

GB is speculating on the number of new convictions for the decade 2002-2011. Maybe it was 0. He gave you 0, and you still weren't satisfied. I highly doubt it was zero, and so do you. We know there were 22 last year alone. Are you going to accept that a large number die of natural causes, or are you going to hang your hat on falsified public documents. Either works for me.
   5022. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: April 22, 2013 at 11:32 PM (#4422942)
The prosecution will argue that Dzhokhar's actions after the bombing show lack of remorse, that he shot at police in the altercations afterwards (and, if reports are true, when he was hiding in the boat). There are also the bombs thrown at police during the chase -- if any can be linked specifically to Dzhokhar, that undercuts any argument from ignorance. Moreover, the driver of the highjacked car says Dzhokhar specifically boasted about his involvement with the bombings. I think the defense is going to have a hard time, and that's assuming no further information regarding the planning for the bombing emerges, which is unlikely.
   5023. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 22, 2013 at 11:32 PM (#4422943)
I just want to know where those 300 missing death-row inmates went. Is that too much to ask?

In many cases, when it was completely over for them, they curled up in a ball and died. Which means they had a lot more sense than you.

Oop! Oop, oop, oop!
   5024. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: April 22, 2013 at 11:33 PM (#4422944)
Are you alleging that:


Joe is very careful not to allege anything directly when he is playing the rhetorical pit bull. He's not saying anything, you see, he's "just asking questions". That keeps the crosshairs squarely on his interlocutors and allows him to feign ignorance or innocence whenever he is subjected to scrutiny.
   5025. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 22, 2013 at 11:37 PM (#4422946)
BTW, CNN has a printed transcript of the hearing in the hospital today. Interesting reading. Seems all very proper, much to Srul's chagrin I suppose.
   5026. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 22, 2013 at 11:46 PM (#4422954)
Joe is very careful not to allege anything directly when he is playing the rhetorical pit bull. He's not saying anything, you see, he's "just asking questions." ...

I keep asking, and Gonfalon keeps not answering.

It turns out there probably have been 200 or 300 death sentences overturned in Florida since 1979, but Gonfalon stridently insisted that he wasn't making such a claim:

You're claiming over 300 death-row inmates in Florida have had their death sentences overturned since 1979? That seems awfully high.

Nooooo... I cited the exact number, 24, earlier on this page (#4932).

LOL.
   5027. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 22, 2013 at 11:46 PM (#4422956)
GB is speculating on the number of new convictions for the decade 2002-2011. Maybe it was 0. He gave you 0, and you still weren't satisfied. I highly doubt it was zero, and so do you.


Speculate no longer.

110 from 2002 - 2011

   5028. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 22, 2013 at 11:47 PM (#4422959)
The fact is, there probably have been 200 or 300 death sentences overturned in Florida since 1979, but Gonfalon stridently insisted that he wasn't making such a claim:


Aside form scoring a gotcha, how does that help your argument?
   5029. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 22, 2013 at 11:51 PM (#4422962)
OK, so now we know that the number of people executed vs the number of people convicted is less than 10%. We still aren't counting the costs associated with capital cases which aren't convicted, or convicted but of a lesser charge. Can you not see that the cost per successful conviction might exceed $20 mil?
   5030. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 22, 2013 at 11:53 PM (#4422963)
What IF bomber dude (not going to dignify him with his real name) heals up and just says "My brother told me they were smoke bombs. It was just a prank" Of course, this is not particularly credible - but barring any DIRECT evidence to the contrary, that doesn't make him much worse on the moral scale than criminally negligent fertilizer plant owner. I mean, yes, SOMEWHAT greater degree.

He's sorry, he breaks down, he tries repeatedly to commit suicide - according to his school chums, he's pretty good at hiding his sociopathic nature... maybe he's very convincing.

So, probably he he just making a story up (or going along with his lawyer) -- of course ladies and gentlemen of the BBTF Kangaroo Court you are still going to convict him of various murder charges. But does the *slight* possibility of him being not an inhuman sociopathic monster get him Life in Prison instead??

That scenario only works with BBTF bleeding hearts. In the real world, it's not that likely that Tsarnaev even testifies. There appears to be a mountain of evidence that would contradict any self-serving my-brother-made-me-do-it testimony. A 3rd-year law student should be able to shred this guy on cross-examination, the top talent the U.S. Attorney assigns to the case would have an easy time, IMHO. Lying through your teeth to the jury is a desperate tactic, and this guy should be desperate, so maybe he tries it, but I don't see it working given what appears to be an extremely strong case for the prosecution. Thought it was a smoke bomb? Thought the guns were cap pistols? Thought the pipe bombs were party favors? Yeah, that will work.
   5031. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 22, 2013 at 11:54 PM (#4422964)
BTW, that list of death row inmates I linked to contains 36 people born in the 1940's. I doubt many of them will be executed before nature takes its course.
   5032. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 22, 2013 at 11:59 PM (#4422967)
Aside form scoring a gotcha, how does that help your argument?

It helps my argument that there were 300 death-row inmates unaccounted for, but mostly it makes Gonfalon's weird victory dance quite funny.

Can you not see that the cost per successful conviction might exceed $20 mil?

I still find it difficult to believe that Florida's cost is 10 times higher than Texas' cost. I also doubt the cost numbers generally. There's no doubt death penalty appeals are more complicated and more expensive, but Florida pays a relative pittance to assigned counsel, and it's not like death-row inmates appeal like crazy while those sentenced to life or life without parole just shrug their shoulders and accept it. Florida would need a large, expensive staff of appellate attorneys no matter what the most severe penalty is in the Sunshine State.
   5033. Monty Predicts a Padres-Mariners WS in 2016 Posted: April 23, 2013 at 12:15 AM (#4422970)
Thought it was a smoke bomb? Thought the guns were cap pistols? Thought the pipe bombs were party favors? Yeah, that will work.


And even if they buy it, that only gets you out of the charges related to the initial bombing. Surely once you discovered the smoke bombs were actual bombs, you might have realized the guns you were going to shoot at the police might be real firearms.
   5034. zenbitz Posted: April 23, 2013 at 01:04 AM (#4422982)
It's beside the point. The details of whether.bomber guy can actually present a cogent defense (enough to dodge the dp) aren't specifically relevant. It's always in the realm of possibility, it's never black and white. So why bother having the death penalty at all? Just so blood thirsty revengeniks can ##### when some judge goes "soft"

My appeal to emotion is a far stronger argument.


Hey, how did these Gaelan flakes get into my hot cup of Ray???!?!!!!?!

   5035. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 23, 2013 at 01:06 AM (#4422983)
I keep asking, and Gonfalon keeps not answering.

Heeyyyy, sexy lady! Oop, oop oop!

24 Florida inmates have had their death penalty sentences overturned because they were wrongly convicted. (There's been one more since the linked Miami Herald editorial, which cites 23.) That's the only number I found. I also said it was (quoting exactly here from #4932), "the highest total in the U.S." and that "those inmates had spent an average of 8 years on death row." I also said "overturned." "Overturned" is kind of important.

What are the chances that the different, larger number you badly want to switch to also matches those accompanying criteria? Who would think that a state the size of Florida had only ever revisited 24 death cases, end stop, and that 24 was somehow the highest total anywhere in the U.S.? Gov. George Ryan commuted the sentences of over 150 death row prisoners in one day. It was kind of in the news when he did it. [EDIT: 167.] Again, commuting isn't overturning. Sentence reduction isn't overturning.

And as #5028 warns, do you not realize that every additional resentencing you produce widens the ratio and weakens your open-mouthed, "I still find it difficult to believe an execution costs this much" act? Knock yourself out.

How many of the Florida inmates had their death sentences reduced or commuted in any fashion in 35 years? I haven't found or guessed a number, let alone "stridently insisted" upon one, you ape. I don't know how many have died, either. I do know how many there were, and how many are gone. Addition and subtraction are incredible tools, though they're not the only incredible tool I've seen today.

However, there is a change. Because of your insincerely stupid responses, I am retracting my benevolent offers to you. The total of Florida inmates placed on death row is certainly greater than 1,000. Since 1972, too, not 1979. Which means that as of now, over 500 "missing inmates" are "unaccounted for." Florida's execution rate is now less than 7.5%, which makes each one that much more pricey. Your disbelief must be off the charts.

Seriously, Joe. This is what complete thermonuclear victory looks like. Slink away, and hope that I have enough compassion not to mention your Psy-and-urine-soaked drubbing too much in the future. Don't make me dance and piss all night. Oop, oop!
   5036. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 01:55 AM (#4422992)

Srul, going back to #4795

Because he committed a heinous crime, and the punishment -- whether death or life in a prison hell-hole, fits the crime.

You don't get to kill a cop and an 8 year old boy, two other innocents, maim and kill dozens, and then say, oh well, I changed my mind, I guess this wasn't such a good idea after all.


Once again, you've answered your own question. If he just claims "oh well, I changed my mind, I guess this wasn't such a good idea after all," that's different from the question you first asked (in which he is "truly sorry for what he did", "will never do it again", and is "rehabilitated", to use your words). I guess you were just being sarcastic in the original post, and your premise seems to be that he can never be rehabilitated.

If you start from that premise, then of course he should not be allowed out of prison. I think it's a mistake to start from that premise, especially before the trial has taken place, but I also think in any case that a crime of this nature requires a lengthy prison sentence (1) in order to serve as an effective deterrent to others, (2) to ensure that he is actually rehabilitated. Given the heinous nature of the crimes here, it would take a very long time for Tsarnaev to convincingly prove he was "rehabilitated". This is one area where proportionality makes sense.

I would add that nowhere in my posts on the death penalty did I say I was opposed to life sentences. Some offenders (maybe Tsarnaev is one of them) have committed offenses so terrible that they will never be able to convince us they should be released. That does not mean they cannot achieve some sort of redemption, improve their own lives, and make a positive contribution, however small, from behind bars.
   5037. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 23, 2013 at 03:04 AM (#4422996)
@5035: is it possible that prisoners who successfully appeal their death penalty sentence (while still guilty of the crime) are simply transferred into the prison system's general population, hence their "disappearance" from death row?

It's not a question of importance, it's a question of cost. The prosecution has all the heavy lifting to do in our system, precisely because a defendant is innocent until proven guilty.

No offense, but you can't possibly have spent a day in the system, certainly not as someone of... lower status. In practice you're presumed guilty, the cost of demonstrating innocence may well bankrupt you, and you're likely to carry the marks of the fight for a long time after: to job interviews, to bonding requirements, to possibilities for promotion, housing applications, foreign travel, emigration...

Sentencing is tougher, too, for people who've been in the system despite being found not guilty.

One that is perhaps in bad taste and often carried too far, but still not actual threats.

While he bleeds for poor little Dzhokar, who killed three people, maimed others, and then went to the gym and a party.

Besides, how do you know? We could have a serial killer in our electronic midst.

Good for you, for not advocating his rape because you dislike him. Progress!
   5038. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 23, 2013 at 03:45 AM (#4422999)
Putting him in jail for the rest of his life effectively does the same thing.

Not at all. WTF are you talking about?
Sure it does. He's separated completely from society. Almost no one will see him or speak to him ever again. He's never going to be able to engage in human society again. He is effectively removed from humankind. He is, for all intents and purposes, dead to the world, without having to be killed.

The risk is what is always is: We willing make ourselves killers.

But not murderers. So it's all good.
If you kill someone you did not need to kill, then it doesn't matter. You commit violence when you didn't have to, and the entire point is to avoid unnecessary killing.

You also seem pretty cavalier about killing someone when you claim not to care one wit about it.
   5039. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 23, 2013 at 06:34 AM (#4423006)
Probably the worst of it is how desperately he'd squeal and beg for mercy if he himself was heading for the chair, and how he's only happy to see someone put to death if someone else does the killing for him.

Wimp.
   5040. Lassus Posted: April 23, 2013 at 07:27 AM (#4423014)
You also seem pretty cavalier about killing someone when you claim not to care one wit about it.

In terms of language, this does make sense, actually.

It's the part about people getting their legs blown off so the kid needs to die that discounts him not caring.
   5041. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: April 23, 2013 at 08:02 AM (#4423028)
Again, that makes no sense. If we kill him he will pose no danger either. So that can't be what the analysis turns on. My appeal to emotion is a far stronger argument.

You do realize that an appeal to emotion is a logical fallacy, right?
   5042. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 23, 2013 at 08:09 AM (#4423032)
Joe is very careful not to allege anything directly when he is playing the rhetorical pit bull. He's not saying anything, you see, he's "just asking questions". That keeps the crosshairs squarely on his interlocutors and allows him to feign ignorance or innocence whenever he is subjected to scrutiny.


This is a very accurate description.

LOL. Physician, heal thyself.


Hey, I would love to be a more interesting poster. I don't have the wit of a Gonfalon Bubble (or others), so I muddle through confident that folks can ignore me if they like. Seriously this thread is more interesting with both you and Ray in it (but like I said this subthread is not Ray's best imo, nothing wrong with that though), but sometimes it gets a bit thick.
   5043. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 23, 2013 at 08:12 AM (#4423035)
Wimp.


What an odd post. I don't get the benefit of making up a scenario in your head and then deciding how someone else would react to it, and then denigrating them for behaving that way.

You do realize that an appeal to emotion is a logical fallacy, right?


But that is not even the best part, because he is the same guy that regularly castigates others (Liberals!) for appeals to emotion (see the Obamacare thread, the Gun Control thread, and many many others).

See Jack there is plenty of material without making stuff up.
   5044. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 23, 2013 at 08:35 AM (#4423040)
I realize it was a thorough drubbing and this is just running up the score, but...

Joe:
Regardless, how can it cost 10 times more in Florida than in Texas, where the per-execution estimate is $2.3 million?

I still find it difficult to believe that Florida's cost is 10 times higher than Texas' cost.


It's not. You are citing Texas cost per case

link

Texas

Texas death penalty cases cost more than non-capital cases

Each death penalty case in Texas costs taxpayers about $2.3 million. That is about three times the cost of imprisoning someone in a single cell at the highest security level for 40 years. ("Executions Cost Texas Millions," Dallas Morning News, March 8, 1992).


That seems to be in line with my "pulled out of my ass" $2.4 mil per case in Florida, which I used to demonstrate how Florida could possibly spend $24 mil per successful execution, which led to the whole "where are the missing death row inmates" sidebar.

Unless Texas executed 100% of those cases (come to think of it, it might not be far off), their cost per execution is much higher than $2.3 mil.
   5045. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 09:05 AM (#4423052)
There are 285 people on Death Row in Texas, so it's certain not all those given the death penalty have been executed.
   5046. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 23, 2013 at 09:12 AM (#4423054)
Since I'm feeling generous, I will say one thing WRT the costs of a death penalty case vs life. I have no idea how large the effect is, but one reason the cost of a life sentence is so much lower is precisely because of the death penalty. No one plea bargains to death, but if death is a real possibility, people do plea bargain to life, driving down the average cost of a life prosecution. If the death penalty were removed from the equation, then the cost of a life prosecution would go up, as no one would plea bargain to life anymore if that was the worst one could get.

I expected Joe or someone else to bring this up last night and was fully prepared to concede the point.
   5047. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 09:13 AM (#4423055)
Texas death penalty cases cost more than non-capital cases

Each death penalty case in Texas costs taxpayers about $2.3 million. That is about three times the cost of imprisoning someone in a single cell at the highest security level for 40 years. ("Executions Cost Texas Millions," Dallas Morning News, March 8, 1992).


Pffft. Big Government inefficiency as usual.

Obviously, the solution here is to privatize the Death Penalty process ...
   5048. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 23, 2013 at 09:17 AM (#4423058)
There are 285 people on Death Row in Texas, so it's certain not all those given the death penalty have been executed.


Right. Add in commutations (probably rare, given it's Texas), overturned convictions, failed prosecutions, and natural deaths, the execution/case ratio is far lower than 1. I will not begin to speculate what the actual number is, other than to say it's probably a lot higher than Florida.
   5049. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 23, 2013 at 09:29 AM (#4423067)
By the way thanks all for the very thorough information about the Death Penalty and its cost. It has not changed my opinion any, but I have learned a bunch regarding the costs and now think about that aspect a bit differently.
   5050. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 09:30 AM (#4423069)
Obviously, the solution here is to privatize the Death Penalty process ...


I think we should at least consider streamlining the process. In related news, that 2012 "Dredd" movie was surprisingly great.
   5051. Morty Causa Posted: April 23, 2013 at 09:35 AM (#4423073)
It has not changed my opinion any,


Show of hands: has there ever been a discussion that has changed anyone's set views on a subject he holds close to his heart? That's what I thought.
   5052. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 23, 2013 at 09:35 AM (#4423075)
I think we should at least consider streamlining the process.


I think we should at least consider eliminating the process.
   5053. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 23, 2013 at 09:37 AM (#4423078)
Show of hands: has there ever been a discussion that has changed anyone's set views on a subject he holds close to his heart?


I was for the invasion of Iraq, before I was against it.
   5054. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: April 23, 2013 at 09:46 AM (#4423085)
Show of hands: has there ever been a discussion that has changed anyone's set views on a subject he holds close to his heart? That's what I thought.

From this site? I've changed my mind on some minor stuff, been nudged further one way or another in bigger issues. If there were no chance of my changing my mind or further examining why I believe what I do / believing that others might do the same, I'd avoid these threads...
   5055. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: April 23, 2013 at 09:46 AM (#4423086)
Show of hands: has there ever been a discussion that has changed anyone's set views on a subject he holds close to his heart?

Show of hands: Do you still believe in all the same things you did when you were 10 or 20? Is the country in the same mindset on gay marriage that it was in 20 years ago?
   5056. Mayor Blomberg Posted: April 23, 2013 at 09:50 AM (#4423089)
http://www.txexecutions.org/stats.asp. A lot fewer capital convictions/year since 2005. Number went down after the resignation of Harris County's disgraced DA, probably about the same time as the Crime Lab's malfeasance hit the news.
   5057. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 23, 2013 at 09:52 AM (#4423090)
I think we should at least consider eliminating the process.


This guy, on the other hand, could probably use it.
   5058. hokieneer Posted: April 23, 2013 at 09:55 AM (#4423094)
Show of hands: has there ever been a discussion that has changed anyone's set views on a subject he holds close to his heart? That's what I thought.


I'm a OTP lurker, but figured I would comment on this one, as it's relevant.

I have changed my position on the death penalty, not because of this thread, just by having conversations and reading material over the last 4-5 years.

   5059. The Good Face Posted: April 23, 2013 at 09:57 AM (#4423099)
Taking joy from the death or suffering of another person, moves us closer to the one we have condemned. We lose a piece of ourselves. It is not for his sake that I oppose the death penalty, it is for ours.


Whew, what a load of imbecilic cant. Aside from perhaps continental drift or localized gravitic fluctuations, nobody is moved anywhere. Exactly what piece of ourselves are we losing? Can you show it to me? And can we replace it from the corpse of the recently executed? If you're talking about some imaginary nonsense like a "soul" or somesuch, I'll thank you to keep your invisible sky daddy out of my state sanctioned killings.

Show of hands: has there ever been a discussion that has changed anyone's set views on a subject he holds close to his heart? That's what I thought.


I once thought some of the liberal posters here weren't fools. They conclusively proved me wrong.
   5060. Greg K Posted: April 23, 2013 at 10:00 AM (#4423100)
Show of hands: has there ever been a discussion that has changed anyone's set views on a subject he holds close to his heart? That's what I thought.

I find these OTP threads are fairly regularly changing my views on things.

Though I suppose "close to his heart" is the crux of the point. I'm not entirely sure if I hold any opinion close to my heart. I'm dogmatic in my non-committalness!
   5061. Ron J2 Posted: April 23, 2013 at 10:05 AM (#4423108)
Show of hands: has there ever been a discussion that has changed anyone's set views on a subject he holds close to his heart?


Campaign financing isn't something really close to my heart, but Dan and others have convinced me that the cure is probably worse than the disease.

Back in the day DMN was successful in making me (at minimum) check my assumptions. I don't know how often he changed my position though.
   5062. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 23, 2013 at 10:07 AM (#4423112)
I'll thank you to keep your invisible sky daddy out of my state sanctioned killings.


Like abortions? Could you talk to your fellow travelers about this?
   5063. The Good Face Posted: April 23, 2013 at 10:16 AM (#4423128)
Like abortions? Could you talk to your fellow travelers about this?


You have a cute habit of dropping what you appear to think are GOTCHAS that only reinforce the arguments of your opponents.

Yes, just like abortions. Is intellectual integrity so foreign to you that you really thought you had a zinger here?
   5064. Lassus Posted: April 23, 2013 at 10:19 AM (#4423134)
I've changed my mind about Good Face. I once thought he was literally evil, but I'm pretty thoroughly convinced by now he's just plain goofy.


I do find the hand-wringing over minds never changing to be weird. The thread has many lurkers, and even those who participate claim questioning.
   5065. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 23, 2013 at 10:20 AM (#4423135)
You have a cute habit of dropping what you appear to think are GOTCHAS that only reinforce the arguments of your opponents.

Yes, just like abortions. Is intellectual integrity so foreign to you that you really thought you had a zinger here?


Not at all. I believe you are sincere. However, most of your like minded individuals very much do insert their sky daddy into state sanctioned killings.
   5066. Morty Causa Posted: April 23, 2013 at 10:24 AM (#4423140)
I was for the invasion of Iraq, before I was against it.


Vice versa would be more of a real change of heart.
   5067. The Good Face Posted: April 23, 2013 at 10:31 AM (#4423148)
I've changed my mind about Good Face. I once thought he was literally evil, but I'm pretty thoroughly convinced by now he's just plain goofy.


Really now, how could you ever think me evil? I'm the best, most goodest person I know, seeking always and ever to make the world a better place.
   5068. SteveF Posted: April 23, 2013 at 10:31 AM (#4423149)
Sky daddy seems so much more cheerful than God. Maybe that's how they can get more people into church -- rebrand God.
   5069. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 23, 2013 at 10:56 AM (#4423168)
Whew, what a load of imbecilic cant. Aside from perhaps continental drift or localized gravitic fluctuations, nobody is moved anywhere. Exactly what piece of ourselves are we losing? Can you show it to me? And can we replace it from the corpse of the recently executed?


I believe that torture harms the torturer as well as the tortured. I believe psychological studies have confirmed this (too lazy to look it up and confirm, sorry). Many pacifists are so because they believe to do violence onto others also does violence unto themselves. It is not really a religious belief so much as a moral and human/psychological one (though many people get to the belief through religion I admit). There is a reason so many soldiers have mental and emotional issues, being in a war, inflicting violence and having it inflicted is damaging, even when there is no broken bone, no open wound.

I am an atheist, but that does not change the moral equation of the death penalty, nor does it change the fact that I believe that when the state kills people it harms society. Those that participate in the killing are harmed (though I am sure most would deny it) and we are all harmed many ways including the open signal that killing is OK (which I believe in general, absent extreme circumstances, it is not OK).

When society says, hey it is OK to kill if you have enough power (or whatever) that erodes the message that killing is not OK. "Killing is wrong, so if you do it we will kill you" is clearly an obviously messed up message IMO.

I was not aware that changing hearts and minds was the goal of this thread (It is a great reason to invade a country though I hear). I am here to learn, discuss, hone my thoughts, meet people, enjoy myself, and occasionally I do alter my opinions.
   5070. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 10:58 AM (#4423169)
I used to think this lunatic was responsible for about 170 injured victims. Now I know it is at least 260.

A total of 264 people injured in last week's bomb attack at the Boston Marathon were treated at 26 hospitals in the days following the attack, the Boston Public Health Commission said on Tuesday. Three people died in the attack.

Authorities have revised the number of injured several times over the past week as additional cases proved to be linked to the explosions on April 15. The latest count is higher than earlier estimates and reflects patients who may not have sought medical help at the scene but later checked in to hospitals in the area, said Nick Martin, a spokesman for the commission.

About 48 people remained hospitalized as of Monday, according to hospital officials.

   5071. zenbitz Posted: April 23, 2013 at 10:59 AM (#4423171)
Me too @5051. This is actually a pretty good place to hear rational counter arguments. Even if this last 10 pages or so, not so much.
   5072. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 11:00 AM (#4423173)
Show of hands: has there ever been a discussion that has changed anyone's set views on a subject he holds close to his heart?

My opinion on drug policy has pretty much done a 180 in recent years (I have become much more liberal/libertarian on the subject). It was a thread on this site about 10 years ago that first caused me to reconsider my opinion.
   5073. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 23, 2013 at 11:02 AM (#4423175)
This is actually a pretty good place to hear rational counter arguments. Even if this last 10 pages or so, not so much.


Aw, c'mon. Who wouldn't enjoy 1000 posts of bickering and arguing over who killed who?
   5074. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 11:03 AM (#4423178)

Boston Marathon bomber Tamerlan Tsarnaev was arrested for slapping his then-girlfriend in 2009
The aspiring heavyweight boxer admitted to hitting his then-gal pal, Nadine Asceucal, on July 28, 2009 when she accused him of cheating on her. The case later fell apart and was dismissed because Asceucal refused to testify.


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/boston-marathon-bomber-tamerlan-tsarnaev-arrested-slapping-then-girlfriend-2009-article-1.1324797#ixzz2RIbjXkUL
   5075. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 23, 2013 at 11:05 AM (#4423180)
I used to think this lunatic was responsible for about 170 injured victims. Now I know it is at least 260.


It's laughable the numbers quoted are so high. Those bombs were small.
   5076. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 11:05 AM (#4423181)
I think we should at least consider streamlining the process.

I think we should at least consider eliminating the process.


Well yeah, me too, that's why I referenced the new Judge Dredd movie. Seriously, badass.
   5077. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: April 23, 2013 at 11:10 AM (#4423190)
Whew, what a load of imbecilic cant. Aside from perhaps continental drift or localized gravitic fluctuations, nobody is moved anywhere. Exactly what piece of ourselves are we losing? Can you show it to me? And can we replace it from the corpse of the recently executed? If you're talking about some imaginary nonsense like a "soul" or somesuch, I'll thank you to keep your invisible sky daddy out of my state sanctioned killings.

Wow, I hardly know how to respond to that... Fortunately, I found a fitting response just a few posts later.

You have a cute habit of dropping what you appear to think are GOTCHAS that only reinforce the arguments of your opponents.

The fact that you have demonstrated on other topics, that you have long lost the ability to empathize with others, for compassion, and for making any moral judgements whatsoever, reenforces the notion that there is something there to be lost.

And I am an atheist. So no GOTCHA points for your skydaddy remark.
   5078. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: April 23, 2013 at 11:12 AM (#4423194)
A total of 264 people injured in last week's bomb attack at the Boston Marathon were treated at 26 hospitals in the days following the attack, the Boston Public Health Commission said on Tuesday. Three people died in the attack.

If that is from the Post, then both numbers probably have error bars around 500%.
   5079. The Good Face Posted: April 23, 2013 at 11:13 AM (#4423197)
Many pacifists are so because they believe to do violence onto others also does violence unto themselves. It is not really a religious belief so much as a moral and human/psychological one


You are describing religious beliefs. Just because there's no invisible sky daddy in your paradigm doesn't mean it's not faith-based.

When society says, hey it is OK to kill if you have enough power (or whatever) that erodes the message that killing is not OK. "Killing is wrong, so if you do it we will kill you" is clearly an obviously messed up message IMO.


If you imprison a child in your basement dungeon, society will respond by, wait for it, imprisoning you. And yet, nobody's mind is blown by this "messed up message". People have absolutely no difficulty understanding and accepting that they are constrained from killing "innocent" people while the government is not constrained from killing "guilty" people.
   5080. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 11:16 AM (#4423200)
The fact that you have demonstrated on other topics, that you have long lost the ability to empathize with others, for compassion,


I think you mean sympathize, but does this mean Good Face is now Robot #1 on this board? Have I lost the title?

(I supposedly lack emotion, but then I was accused of making a purely emotional argument above. You see how confusing it gets.)
   5081. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 23, 2013 at 11:18 AM (#4423201)
If you imprison a child in your basement dungeon, society will respond by, wait for it, imprisoning you. And yet, nobody's mind is blown by this "messed up message". People have absolutely no difficulty understanding and accepting that they are constrained from killing "innocent" people while the government is not constrained from killing "guilty" people.


That's actually a good response. Won't change my mind, as I am against capital punishment for other reasons as well.
   5082. The Good Face Posted: April 23, 2013 at 11:21 AM (#4423203)
The fact that you have demonstrated on other topics, that you have long lost the ability to empathize with others, for compassion, and for making any moral judgements whatsoever, reenforces the notion that there is something there to be lost.


Yes, yes, I'm a bad person who doesn't care enough about whatever nonsense you care about. Now defend your pablum and answer my questions.

And I am an atheist. So no GOTCHA points for your skydaddy remark.


You may not believe in any organized religion, but you're making religious arguments. So I don't see why your self-righteous religious beliefs should be treated any differently than those of any other religious nut.
   5083. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: April 23, 2013 at 11:27 AM (#4423207)
I think you mean sympathize, but does this mean Good Face is now Robot #1 on this board? Have I lost the title?

Nope, I meant empathize. Maybe you need to update your dictionary file.

If you imprison a child in your basement dungeon, society will respond by, wait for it, imprisoning you. And yet, nobody's mind is blown by this "messed up message". People have absolutely no difficulty understanding and accepting that they are constrained from killing "innocent" people while the government is not constrained from killing "guilty" people.

That's because there is a demonstrated need to remove that person from society, so that he can't harm anyone else, and to set a deterrent against such behaviour from other people. Once those goals are achieved, killing the person accomplishes nothing extra.
It is unfortunate, but necessary. In the same way that a policeman may shoot a person he deems to be an immediate danger to other people, but can't just decide to shoot him in the back of the head, after he has been caught.
   5084. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: April 23, 2013 at 11:29 AM (#4423211)
You may not believe in any organized religion, but you're making religious arguments. So I don't see why your self-righteous religious beliefs should be treated any differently than those of any other religious nut.

Psychology is not religion. You can choose to not believe in it, as you can choose to not believe in evolution. Doesn't make either less real.
   5085. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 11:31 AM (#4423213)
You may not believe in any organized religion, but you're making religious arguments. So I don't see why your self-righteous religious beliefs should be treated any differently than those of any other religious nut.


Liberals don't seem to understand that religious beliefs encompass a broader spectrum than just organized religion.
   5086. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: April 23, 2013 at 11:36 AM (#4423220)
Liberals don't seem to understand that religious beliefs encompass a broader spectrum than just organized religion.

You mean like "free markets" or "willing buyer and willing seller"?
   5087. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: April 23, 2013 at 11:41 AM (#4423225)
Liberals don't seem to understand that religious beliefs encompass a broader spectrum than just organized religion.

This is hilarious. I am actually a centrist btw, and I tend to approach issues from a utilitarian perspective. However, the entire Libertarian ideology is based upon religious principles.
   5088. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 11:46 AM (#4423234)
If you imprison a child in your basement dungeon, society will respond by, wait for it, imprisoning you scorning the kid as a baseball blogger.


More likely, as I understand things.
   5089. The Good Face Posted: April 23, 2013 at 11:48 AM (#4423236)
Psychology is not religion. You can choose to not believe in it, as you can choose to not believe in evolution. Doesn't make either less real.


Ok then, where exactly does psychology prove that the death penalty causes us to "lose a piece of ourselves". What piece do we lose? Where was it? Can we find it again? Maybe it's under the sofa?

But of course, we both know psychology hasn't proven any such thing. Appears you're just like every other religious fanatic; short on evidence, long on "you gotta believe!".
   5090. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 23, 2013 at 11:50 AM (#4423241)
You are describing religious beliefs. Just because there's no invisible sky daddy in your paradigm doesn't mean it's not faith-based.


Describe religion to me then, because I suspect our definitions are very different. Every matter of belief (faith if you will) is not religious in nature.

I believe the sun will be shining tomorrow. I believe gravity will continue to function as it has my whole life. I believe torture injures both the tortured and the torturer. None of those beliefs come from stone age dudes writing things on sheepskin (or whatever), there is no spiritual or metaphysical element to it, just happens to be what I believe to be true.

If you imprison a child in your basement dungeon, society will respond by, wait for it, imprisoning you. And yet, nobody's mind is blown by this "messed up message". People have absolutely no difficulty understanding and accepting that they are constrained from killing "innocent" people while the government is not constrained from killing "guilty" people.


On the surface this is a fine analogy, but not really once you look at it. We imprison people to keep the rest of society safe from them while they are hopefully being rehabilitated, not because they imprisoned others. Just as we don't steal from theives or rape rapists. Imprisonment has been determined to be the method by which we handle serious lawbreakers. Unless they kill, in which case we often try to kill them, because killing is so wrong.

We as a society categorize killing as so wrong we need to deviate from the standard punishment and do exactly to them what we are saying they should never have done to anyone. That is where the mixed message that is harmful comes from.

Of course I would like to point out that the mixed message was just one (and one of the least significant) in my view reason to be against state sactioned killing.

   5091. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 23, 2013 at 11:53 AM (#4423246)
Appears you're just like every other religious fanatic; short on evidence, long on "you gotta believe!".


Shouldn't this comment also be directed at Joe K?
   5092. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 23, 2013 at 11:58 AM (#4423251)
Ok then, where exactly does psychology prove that the death penalty causes us to "lose a piece of ourselves". What piece do we lose? Where was it? Can we find it again? Maybe it's under the sofa?


Do you think torture harms both parties? Do you think doing violence can harm (psychologically) the person doing the violence?

I do and I believe there is research to back it up (tonight I will try to find time and will power to research that nasty topic). If you don't agree with that then there is little point in generalizing. If you do accept that then I would like to hear where the line gets drawn, and where such acts stop harming the people who do them. Is there a collective effect, where when we do something in mass we are granted immunity to such deliterious effects? I am skeptical.

Again if you don't believe the premise I am starting from, then of course you are not going to believe the conclusion, so I would like to establish that first, before wasting too much time.
   5093. The Good Face Posted: April 23, 2013 at 11:59 AM (#4423252)
Shouldn't this comment also be directed at Joe K?


It should be directed wherever it's applicable.
   5094. The Good Face Posted: April 23, 2013 at 12:03 PM (#4423255)
Do you think torture harms both parties?


Not necessarily, no.

Do you think doing violence can harm (psychologically) the person doing the violence?


Can? Yes. Must? No. You're thinking within a very narrow box here.

Again if you don't believe the premise I am starting from, then of course you are not going to believe the conclusion, so I would like to establish that first, before wasting too much time.


I reject the premise because there's no proof supporting it.
   5095. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 23, 2013 at 12:08 PM (#4423259)
Shouldn't this comment also be directed at Joe K?



It should be directed wherever it's applicable.


It would ring a little more true if once in a while you directed it at your erstwhile political friends instead of 100% of the time at your opponents. The next time you call out snapper to keep his god out of your state sanctioned killings, or Joe K spouting disbelief at actual verified numbers with no evidence will be the first.
   5096. Lassus Posted: April 23, 2013 at 12:09 PM (#4423260)
But of course, we both know psychology hasn't proven any such thing.

Has psychology and the many associated studies on a myriad of psychological topics ever proven anything in your opinion, or no?

I ask as some people certainly here believe so, I'm just curious if that was your opinion as well.
   5097. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 23, 2013 at 12:31 PM (#4423278)
Show of hands: has there ever been a discussion that has changed anyone's set views on a subject he holds close to his heart?
I mentioned this earlier, but I've switched on the drone thing from pro to very con based solely on the arguments I've read here.
   5098. The Good Face Posted: April 23, 2013 at 12:33 PM (#4423280)
It would ring a little more true if once in a while you directed it at your erstwhile political friends instead of 100% of the time at your opponents. The next time you call out snapper to keep his god out of your state sanctioned killings, or Joe K spouting disbelief at actual verified numbers with no evidence will be the first.


Whenever my erstwhile political friends say anything you or your erstwhile political friends disagree with, there is a torrent of posts talking about how wrong/stupid/evil/crazy they are. Even in the rare cases they have a point, I don't see much purpose in "Me too!" posts, so I rarely make them.
   5099. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 12:34 PM (#4423281)
I've changed my mind about Good Face. I once thought he was literally evil, but I'm pretty thoroughly convinced by now he's just plain goofy.


Why do you think it's an either/or question?
   5100. Morty Causa Posted: April 23, 2013 at 12:39 PM (#4423288)
Can't sleep. Clown will eat me!
Page 51 of 66 pages ‹ First  < 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 >  Last ›

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Sebastian
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogOTP - July 2014: Republicans Lose To Democrats For Sixth Straight Year In Congressional Baseball Game
(3993 - 3:51am, Aug 01)
Last: Dr. Vaux

NewsblogAthletics, Twins Swap Tommy Milone, Sam Fuld
(23 - 3:45am, Aug 01)
Last: Dr. Vaux

NewsblogMarlins acquire Jarred Cosart from Astros in six-player deal
(7 - 3:16am, Aug 01)
Last: KT's Pot Arb

NewsblogOT: The Soccer Thread July, 2014
(557 - 3:04am, Aug 01)
Last: Swedish Chef

NewsblogA's Acquire Lester, Gomes For Cespedes
(128 - 3:00am, Aug 01)
Last: PreservedFish

NewsblogJULY 31 2014 OMNICHATTER/TRADE DEADLINE CHATTER
(363 - 2:09am, Aug 01)
Last: Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play

NewsblogTigers To Acquire David Price
(72 - 1:58am, Aug 01)
Last: if nature called, ladodger34 would listen

NewsblogCardinals Acquire John Lackey
(93 - 1:57am, Aug 01)
Last: bjhanke

NewsblogMinnesota Twins sign Kurt Suzuki to two-year contract extension
(7 - 1:19am, Aug 01)
Last: boteman is not here 'til October

NewsblogYankees land infielders Stephen Drew, Martin Prado at Deadline
(20 - 1:07am, Aug 01)
Last: shoewizard

NewsblogMariners acquire outfielder Chris Denorfia from Padres
(4 - 1:04am, Aug 01)
Last: PreservedFish

NewsblogOT: Monthly NBA Thread- July 2014
(1074 - 1:02am, Aug 01)
Last: Squash

NewsblogCliff Lee Re-Injures Elbow
(18 - 12:55am, Aug 01)
Last: Joyful Calculus Instructor

NewsblogCubs deal Emilio Bonifacio, James Russell to Braves
(10 - 12:38am, Aug 01)
Last: Jacob

NewsblogBrewers acquire outfielder Gerardo Parra from D-backs
(5 - 12:27am, Aug 01)
Last: KT's Pot Arb

Page rendered in 1.0335 seconds
52 querie(s) executed