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Sunday, March 31, 2013

OTP: April 2013: Daily Caller: Baseball and the GOP: To rebrand the party, think like a sports fan

This week’s GOP autopsy report, commissioned by RNC Chairman Reince Priebus, is a great start in the much-needed task of rebranding the Republican Party. As the chairman acknowledged, “the way we communicate our principles isn’t resonating widely enough” and “we have to be more inclusive.” The report contains 219 recommendations to “connect people to our principles.” To achieve that goal, the party will need a strategic vision of how voters think about politics, which is something that the report lacks. For that, the GOP can learn a lot from another American passion: baseball.

This year, about 75 million Americans will go to the baseball stadium to watch a ballgame, about the same number as those who will vote in next year’s election. We rarely think about why someone becomes a baseball fan, or why they root for a certain team. Nor do we usually think about why someone chooses to vote for a certain political party. But it’s actually a very useful exercise.

When it comes to baseball, fan loyalty has almost nothing to do with the brain, and almost everything to do with the heart. In all of history, there’s never been a baseball fan who rooted for his team because it had the lowest ticket prices, or because it had the most taxpayer-friendly stadium deal, or because its players did the most community service. For the vast majority of Americans, rooting for a baseball team — not to mention, voting for a political party — isn’t really a rational choice; it’s more of a statement of personal identity — a statement telling the world, “This is who I am.” And for most people, defining “who I am” starts with family and community, before branching out into areas like race, age, gender, and class.

Family is pretty straightforward. If your mom and dad are Yankee fans, you’re almost certainly a Yankee fan. The same is true in politics. If your mom and dad are Republicans, you’re almost certainly a Republican.

Community is also pretty straightforward. If you grew up in, say, Philadelphia, chances are pretty great you’re a Phillies fan. Likewise, someone who grew up in Republican territory like, say, suburban Dallas or rural Indiana is much more likely to become a Republican than a nearly identical person from Seattle or Santa Fe.

Cities with more than one baseball team, like New York or Chicago, show revealing breakdowns by race and gender. The racial split in Chicago between Cubs fans on the North Side and White Sox fans on the South Side is well-documented. In New York, there’s an intriguing gender gap between Mets and Yankee fans, with women gravitating a lot more to the Yanks. While there’s a few theories out there trying to explain that, one obvious answer leaps out: Yankees heartthrob Derek Jeter.

In sports, as in politics, people’s convictions can’t be conveniently reduced to who their parents are or what they look like. But those things are an important foundation, upon which more rational sentiments come into being. Once you’re attached to your team on an emotional level — seeing them as a personal reflection of who you are and what you care about most — a rational exterior comes into being through phrases like “the Red Sox are the best team because they have the most heart” or “the Republicans are the best party because they know how to create jobs.”

Tripon Posted: March 31, 2013 at 10:52 AM | 6544 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   5201. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 23, 2013 at 03:42 PM (#4423604)
It also figured out that by stealing and raping

Oh, no. There's that word again.
   5202. zenbitz Posted: April 23, 2013 at 03:43 PM (#4423605)
In a world of limited resources,


This post is best read in that Movie preview annoucers voice...

it's morally repugnant to be spending ~$50,000 per year to convict and warehouse murderers, rapists, and other criminals who are highly unlikely to ever contribute anything positive to society. I favor the death penalty for utilitarian purposes, but I'd be just as happy with walling off 10 square miles of Texas or New Mexico and tossing convicts whose appeals are exhausted in there to fend for themselves.


Because Joe never makes mistakes.

Also, "In a world of limited resources" - the best thing to do would be to either extract labor from criminals or eat them. Well, I'll give you feed them to livestock.
   5203. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 03:47 PM (#4423609)
Incidentally Snapper has missed the most important (to my mind) point about the retributive part of the criminal justice system. If there isn't general acceptance that the punishment is adequate it's pretty clear that you'll have a serious problem with vigilante "justice".

I'm sure I mentioned it at some point in this thread, but yes. If the state doesn't address the victim's need for justice, the victim and/or their family and friends will do it themselves.

damn, Snaps, that's Kehoskie-level.

I'm sorry, anyone who doesn't believe that, in and of themselves, good acts should be rewarded and bad acts punished, can't be reasoned with in the context of morality. Their grasp of morality and human nature is deficient.

It also figured out that by stealing and raping females it could reproduce it's own lineage most effectively. But that particular aspect of early hominid or barbaric human behavior is less celebrated.

because we have the ability to reason morally, and that conduct offends our fundamental sense of right and wrong, justice and injustice.

Anyone who believes raping women to spread his genes is OK is the human equivalent of a mad dog and should be put down.
   5204. Steve Treder Posted: April 23, 2013 at 03:47 PM (#4423610)
If there isn't general acceptance that the punishment is adequate it's pretty clear that you'll have a serious problem with vigilante "justice".

Yes. In his The Better Angels of Our Nature, Steven Pinker describes the successful development and maintenance of the "Leviathan state" with a monopoly on force as being dependent upon this key. The state is seen as credible, legitimate, by the general populous to the degree that it fulfills this role with appropriate balance and restraint. Too weak in punishment and the state becomes irrelevant, impotent, and family/clan/tribal "justice" flourishes. Too reckless in punishment and it's just a tyrannical police state, enforcing order only through fear.
   5205. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 03:50 PM (#4423612)
Yes. In his The Better Angels of Our Nature, Steven Pinker describes the successful development and maintenance of the "Leviathan state" with a monopoly on force as being dependent upon this key. The state is seen as credible, legitimate, by the general populous to the degree that it fulfills this role with appropriate balance and restraint. Too weak in punishment and the state becomes irrelevant, impotent, and family/clan/tribal "justice" flourishes. Too reckless in punishment and it's just a tyrannical police state, enforcing order only through fear.

Very true. When states fail, alternative systems of justice always arise. And when states arbitrarily abuse the justice system for other ends (e.g. the Gulag) it loses all credibility.
   5206. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 23, 2013 at 03:51 PM (#4423615)
The world figured out "an eye for an eye" very well on it's own, it was Christ's teaching to modify that.
Just a quick aside, we're all basically arguing Western thought, but Buddha predates Christ by about four hundred years. The Buddha was not a fan of "an eye for an eye" long before Christ wasn't.
   5207. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 23, 2013 at 03:52 PM (#4423616)
Right: You're prioritizing deterrence ahead of punishment, which is unjust. Thanks for spelling it out in a way you can't try to weasel out of.


Well since I am stating punishment does not interest me and deterrence, public safety and rehabilitation do interest me then yeah, I guess. The logical leap to "which is unjust" is quite the assertion though.

Translation for Joe K specifically: As I said: deterrence good, punishment bad. This not unjust.

but think you go too far wrt punishment


I completely agree I am in the minority on this, and I am OK with that. I am pretty happy if people are willing to acknowledge deterrence, public safety, and rehabilitation as equal partners to punishment. I am not even completely convinced I am right in any sort of objective fashion, but it is what I believe by and large. Someone has to be on the peace and love train, just to pull things away from the "kill them all" side of the equation.

Translation for Joe K: Bitter Mouse not like everyone else. Bitter Mouse is OK with others believing what they do. Bitter Mouse does not claim to own the truth. Bitter Mouse is a peace loving wimp.
   5208. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 23, 2013 at 03:54 PM (#4423618)
5202 made me laugh out loud at work. Stop it!
   5209. Steve Treder Posted: April 23, 2013 at 03:56 PM (#4423619)
Also, "In a world of limited resources" - the best thing to do would be to either extract labor from criminals or eat them. Well, I'll give you feed them to livestock.

March them out to clear minefields.
   5210. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 23, 2013 at 03:56 PM (#4423620)
5204 (and related posts) are a very reasonable position. let me think about it. After I get done laughing about 5202.
   5211. Gonfalon B. Posted: April 23, 2013 at 03:57 PM (#4423621)
(And now, rather than admit the obvious, you're engaging in an odd attempt to redefine the word "overturned." Very strange, and more than a little dishonest.)

In 2003, Governor George Ryan commuted every existing death penalty sentence in Illinois' system at once, 167 in total. Kind of a big deal. The New York Times called it "the largest such emptying of death row in history," but of course that was before Florida broke the record by overturning 24 cases.

NPR just doesn't get it:
Ryan won international acclaim in 1999 for declaring a moratorium on executions in Illinois after seeing more than a dozen death-row inmates have their convictions overturned... In January 2003, he stunned the world by clearing out Illinois' death row, commuting the death sentences of more than 160 inmates to life sentences.

Gov. George Ryan's official statement describing the decision called it a moratorium, and never mentioned "overturning" one death sentence. Probably because none of the 167 people went anywhere. But what does that a-hole Ryan know, "talking as if he's an expert on the subject"?

Unhappily, his successor Pat Quinn is just as clueless:
Associated Press, March 2011: Quinn also commuted the sentences of all 15 men remaining on death row. They will now serve life in prison with no hope of parole. In his comments, the governor returned often to the fact that 20 people sent to death row had seen their cases overturned after evidence surfaced that they were innocent or had been convicted improperly.

Twenty? Is this guy nuts? What happened to the missing 167? Why can't he "admit the obvious"?
   5212. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 03:58 PM (#4423623)
Just a quick aside, we're all basically arguing Western thought, but Buddha predates Christ by about four hundred years. The Buddha was not a fan of "an eye for an eye" long before Christ wasn't.

True, but Sam was assailing my belief system, which doesn't rely on Siddhartha Gautama.
   5213. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 23, 2013 at 03:59 PM (#4423625)
Translation for Joe K specifically: As I said: deterrence good, punishment bad. This not unjust.

Of course it is. You keep saying that punishment is bad but then punish people anyway for the purpose of deterrence. Doing so is plainly unjust according to the principles you allegedly espouse.

If a parent punishes Child A not primarily because of Child A's actions but because he wants to send a message to Child B, he's a bad parent.

Translation for Joe K: Bitter Mouse not like everyone else. Bitter Mouse is OK with others believing what they do. Bitter Mouse does not claim to own the truth. Bitter Mouse is a peace loving wimp.

Places run by (or according to the preferences of) "peace loving wimps" generally end up short on the "peace" part.
   5214. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 23, 2013 at 04:02 PM (#4423629)
In 2003, Governor George Ryan commuted every existing death penalty sentence in Illinois' system at once, 167 in total. Kind of a big deal. The New York Times called it "the largest such emptying of death row in history," but of course that was before Florida broke the record by overturning 24 cases.

Another attempt at distraction. We weren't talking about Illinois; we were talking about Florida.

Ryan won international acclaim in 1999 for declaring a moratorium on executions in Illinois after seeing more than a dozen death-row inmates have their convictions overturned... In January 2003, he stunned the world by clearing out Illinois' death row, commuting the death sentences of more than 160 inmates to life sentences.

Gov. George Ryan's official statement describing the decision called it a moratorium, and never mentioned "overturning" one death sentence. Probably because none of the 167 people went anywhere. But what does that a-hole Ryan know, "talking as if he's an expert on the subject"?

Uh, they weren't "overturned" because they were commuted. I guess you still don't know the difference between the two words.

Appeals courts overturn death sentences; governors commute them.
   5215. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 23, 2013 at 04:04 PM (#4423631)
Thanks for clearing that up Gonfalon.

It was really driving me nuts trying to figure out what the hell the argument was about.


The argument was Joe trying to score an uncontested layup with 15 seconds to go and his team down by 20 and then trying to claim that meant something.
   5216. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 04:11 PM (#4423638)
Also, "In a world of limited resources" - the best thing to do would be to either extract labor from criminals or eat them. Well, I'll give you feed them to livestock.


The fact that you refuse to even consider mandatory organ harvests shows how misguided your morality is. This would take place after the forced labor extraction and prior to conversion to feed, so that everyone wins.
   5217. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 04:13 PM (#4423642)
I'm sorry, anyone who doesn't believe that, in and of themselves, good acts should be rewarded and bad acts punished, can't be reasoned with in the context of morality.


If not punished, at least transferred to another dioceses.
   5218. Tripon Posted: April 23, 2013 at 04:15 PM (#4423644)


The fact that you refuse to even consider mandatory organ harvests shows how misguided your morality is. This would take place after the forced labor extraction and prior to conversion to feed, so that everyone wins.


Would you allow prisoners time off if they promised to donate their organs and body to science/medical?
   5219. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 23, 2013 at 04:16 PM (#4423648)
True, but Sam was assailing my belief system, which doesn't rely on Siddhartha Gautama.
I think Sam was assailing the idea that your belief system should trump everyone else's.
   5220. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 04:18 PM (#4423653)
Basically, my position in a nutshell is the following.

Presuming white hat guy is shown beyond any doubt to have committed this heinous crime at the marathon, I stop caring whether someone wants to put him to death or not. He has destroyed lives, ripped apart families, by the dozens. I would advocate putting him to death, while being satisfied if the mechanical processes result in life in prison, since beyond that minimum I simply don't care about him any more. No, I don't think he deserves to walk the earth, even in a prison cell.

The "we lose a piece of ourselves if we kill him" is meaningless gibberish, and, more, it reveals a fundamental lack of understanding of the speaker as to what is right and wrong. Us killing him is in no way morally equivalent to the acts he committed. It's (I'll take murder out of the example) the difference between going into a bank and robbing it, vs. going into a bank and withdrawing money from your account. In both cases you came out with money, but in no meaningful way are the acts the same. Someone who points to them as being the same is simply lost.

At some point, you need to be able to tell right from wrong. Now, maybe my sense of wrong is messed up; maybe white hat boy is right for killing and maiming people, and I am wrong for thinking that what he did is wrong or for thinking he should be put to death. So be it. If you cannot tell the difference between right and wrong in this easy case, you have nothing to really contribute to the discussion on the harder cases.

BTW, do people think Ted Bundy deserved the death penalty? Because he committed ultra-heinous acts of terror, brutality, rape, murder, and god knows what else (I do - read his wikipedia page and you will need multiple fainting couches) to dozens of women. Of what use would keeping him alive have been?

And the Bundy case is why the people willing to write off the Steubenville criminals for the rest of their lives as being worthless to society shows why that's a silly place to draw the line.
   5221. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 23, 2013 at 04:19 PM (#4423655)
Uh, they weren't "overturned" because they were commuted. I guess you still don't know the difference between the two words.

Appeals courts overturn death sentences; governors commute them.


This is just pathetic.
   5222. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 04:22 PM (#4423660)
Would you allow prisoners time off if they promised to donate their organs and body to science/medical?


That's a very good question. I wouldn't be opposed to some sort of benefit for the prisoners, although reduced sentences might not be the best compensation. Once released, a former inmate may be incentivized to mistreat his body, for example, since the liver, kidneys, heart, etc., are no longer "theirs". There's also the issue of tracking them down for harvest - if you've ever been present during a postmortem organ harvest you know there isn't much time to goof around.
   5223. Gonfalon B. Posted: April 23, 2013 at 04:23 PM (#4423661)
Appeals courts overturn death sentences; governors commute them.

What you say is invariably true... except where appeals courts commute death sentences in many jurisdictions.

Better luck next time, Roget.
   5224. zenbitz Posted: April 23, 2013 at 04:24 PM (#4423664)
If a parent punishes Child A not primarily because of Child A's actions but because he wants to send a message to Child B, he's a bad parent.


Oh hay Joe thanks for the softball.

A Parent punishes his child, not for the sake of PUNISHMENT but so that the child will learn a lesson.
Or to quote Heinlein (noted liberal theorist):

You scold him so that he knows he's in trouble, you rub his nose in it so that he will know what trouble you mean, you paddle him so that he darn well won't do it again -- and you have to do it right away! It doesn't do a bit of good to punish him later; you'll just confuse him. Even so, he won't learn from one lesson, so you watch and catch him again and paddle him still harder. Pretty soon he learns. But it's a waste of breath just to scold him.


But that's not why adult criminals are punished, typically.
   5225. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: April 23, 2013 at 04:26 PM (#4423666)
Very true. When states fail, alternative systems of justice always arise. And when states arbitrarily abuse the justice system for other ends (e.g. the Gulag) it loses all credibility.


States, with the capitol S, is just the currently operative system of justice. Eventually the state of operative justice will modulate and morph again, and States with a capitol S will be history on par with Kings and fiefdoms. Neither kings, nor lords, nor States are inherently tied to anything called "justice" in the natural world.
   5226. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 23, 2013 at 04:30 PM (#4423671)
BTW, do people think Ted Bundy deserved the death penalty? Because he committed ultra-heinous acts of terror, brutality, rape, murder, and god knows what else (I do - read his wikipedia page and you will need multiple fainting couches) to dozens of women. Of what use would keeping him alive have been?


The problem with that is Babe Ruth, Al Kaline, and Jim Rice. Arguing that Ted Bundy should get the death penalty is like arguing that Babe Ruth should be in the Hall of Fame. Well, of course he should, duh! OK, then where do we draw the line? Al Kaline, and his criminal counterpart? Al is clearly not in Ruth's zip code as a ballplayer, but he was still a pretty heinous killer. OK, we lower our standard to Al Kaline. How about Jim Rice? No on Rice? OK, how about we raise it to Enos Slaughter? And so on. you can't say we need the death penalty, even if it's only for the worst of the worst, because somebody, whether it's Al Kaline, Enos Slaughter, Jim Rice, or Jack Morris, will be the borderline guy who make people scratch their heads and say "He's like Ted Bundy?"

{/mixed metaphors}
   5227. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: April 23, 2013 at 04:30 PM (#4423672)
Us killing him is in no way morally equivalent to the acts he committed.


No one said they were equivalent. You don't have to have them be equivalent for both to be wrong.
   5228. Gonfalon B. Posted: April 23, 2013 at 04:33 PM (#4423674)
At least Ted Bundy's rape and murder spree only lasted 5-7 years; we'll have to deal with Jack Morris for untold decades.
   5229. Tripon Posted: April 23, 2013 at 04:36 PM (#4423676)
you can't say we need the death penalty, even if it's only for the worst of the worst, because somebody, whether it's Al Kaline, Enos Slaughter, Jim Rice, or Jack Morris, will be the borderline guy who make people scratch their heads and say "He's like Ted Bundy?"


Its the pornography question. You can tell what it is by looking at it. And trust me, I looked at a lot of porn.
   5230. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: April 23, 2013 at 04:37 PM (#4423679)
At least Ted Bundy's rape and murder spree only lasted 5-7 years; we'll have to deal with Jack Morris for untold decades


Ted Bundy raped to the score.
   5231. Steve Treder Posted: April 23, 2013 at 04:44 PM (#4423686)
No one said they were equivalent. You don't have to have them be equivalent for both to be wrong.

Precisely.
   5232. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 23, 2013 at 04:45 PM (#4423687)
The "we lose a piece of ourselves if we kill him" is meaningless gibberish, and, more, it reveals a fundamental lack of understanding of the speaker as to what is right and wrong. Us killing him is in no way morally equivalent to the acts he committed.
I don't think it's meaningless gibberish. Much of the world agrees with me.

I'm also in no way morally equating what the bomber does with the death penalty. The point comes down to this: Is the guilty party aprehended? Yes. Is he now a danger to anyone? No. Why do we need to kill him? Because we want to. Anyone hoping for closure, justice, a sense of fairness, etc., are only hoping to get there through one more act of lethal violence. Sure, this last act of lethal violence is easy to justify, but it's still an act of lethal violence that can be avoided. You don't care about that boy? Neither do I. But I don't want to kill anyone if I don't have to, and I don't want my government killing people if it's at all avoidable.

Now, maybe my sense of wrong is messed up; maybe white hat boy is right for killing and maiming people, and I am wrong for thinking that what he did is wrong or for thinking he should be put to death.
Not a single person has or will make that argument here; please don't imply otherwise. We all come down on the same side with respect to how terrible and evil his actions were.

BTW, do people think Ted Bundy deserved the death penalty? Because he committed ultra-heinous acts of terror, brutality, rape, murder, and god knows what else.... Of what use would keeping him alive have been?
That's not the question to ask. He's captured, he's incarcerated, he'll never walk in civil society again. Killing him won't change history or make his victims' families whole. Vengeance as policy may sound badass (and frankly, it is), but I don't see it promoting any healing for those who need it.
   5233. zenbitz Posted: April 23, 2013 at 04:45 PM (#4423688)
At some point, you need to be able to tell right from wrong. Now, maybe my sense of wrong is messed up; maybe white hat boy is right for killing and maiming people, and I am wrong for thinking that what he did is wrong or for thinking he should be put to death. So be it. If you cannot tell the difference between right and wrong in this easy case, you have nothing to really contribute to the discussion on the harder cases.


But no one - no system - is infallible. And even those among us who believe in omnipotent, active deities - clearly disposing of human garbage is ITS problem, not ours.
And see the HOF argument.

BTW, do people think Ted Bundy deserved the death penalty? Because he committed ultra-heinous acts of terror, brutality, rape, murder, and god knows what else (I do - read his wikipedia page and you will need multiple fainting couches) to dozens of women. Of what use would keeping him alive have been?


Deserve ain't got nothin' to do with it. Would I have executed him if it was up to me? Not if there were any other reasonable options. I would happily shoot him in the back or even drone strike him if I thought we was still capable of doing harm.
   5234. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 04:48 PM (#4423692)
Ted Bundy raped to the score.


So many emotions...laughter, a vague sense of you being a bad person, a sense that I am a bad person for laughing, confusion as to what that means, more feelings of unease...
   5235. Tripon Posted: April 23, 2013 at 04:52 PM (#4423695)
That's not the question to ask. He's captured, he's incarcerated, he'll never walk in civil society again. Killing him won't change history or make his victims' families whole. Vengeance as policy may sound badass (and frankly, it is), but I don't see it promoting any healing for those who need it.


Deserve ain't got nothin' to do with it. Would I have executed him if it was up to me? Not if there were any other reasonable options. I would happily shoot him in the back or even drone strike him if I thought we was still capable of doing harm.


A person like Charles Manson is still capable of doing great harm despite being in prison because of his ability to gain followers of like minded men in prison. If the state of California could stick a needle in Manson's arm, it should do so.
   5236. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 04:55 PM (#4423698)

A person like Charles Manson is still capable of doing great harm despite being in prison because of his ability to gain followers of like minded men in prison. If the state of California could stick a needle in Manson's arm, it should do so.


A person like Tsarnaev is still capable of doing great harm despite being dead because of his ability to gain followers by way of martyrdom. If the United States of America can keep him alive, it should do so.
   5237. Tripon Posted: April 23, 2013 at 04:59 PM (#4423703)

A person like Tsarnaev is still capable of doing great harm despite being dead because of his ability to gain followers by way of martyrdom. If the United States of America can keep him alive, it should do so.


You can say the same thing about Christopher Dorner. The police still shot him up like a pinata. Or the elder Tsarnaev for that matter. Frankly, a state should not worry about creating martyrs, it can only worry about punishment and rehabilitation.
   5238. Ron J2 Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:02 PM (#4423706)
#5236 I think there's absolutely no evidence that a dead Tsarnaev is a more effective recruiting tool than a live one. Seriously, what supports this view?
   5239. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:02 PM (#4423708)
A person like Charles Manson is still capable of doing great harm despite being in prison because of his ability to gain followers of like minded men in prison. If the state of California could stick a needle in Manson's arm, it should do so.


If that's the case, send him to the California equivalent of ADX Florence. The world, and the gen pop need never see nor hear from him again.
   5240. Gonfalon B. Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:02 PM (#4423710)
Wall Street Journal columnist/editor James Taranto smells a rat:

"One fascinating thing about [Rep. Gabby Gifford's passionate op ed column denouncing the Senate's blocking of gun legislation] is this piece was published no later than 9:03 PM on Wednesday evening, because that's when it first appears on the New York Times' Twitter feed. The last Senate vote on amendments to the gun bill was a bit after 6:00 [PM]. Giffords appeared at the White House at 5:35 [PM] when we saw that enraged rant by the president. The Manchin-Toomey [background check] provision was the first vote. That was at 4:04 PM. So if you read this piece, it's presented as a cry from the heart, as Giffords' personal reaction as somebody who's been wounded by gun violence to the betrayal of these Senators. So we are supposed to believe that somehow in less than five hours, a woman who has severe impairments of her motor and speech functions was able to produce 900 publishable words, and put in an appearance in the White House in the course of it. So I think that's a little bit odd."
   5241. Tripon Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:04 PM (#4423712)

If that's the case, send him to the California equivalent of ADX Florence. The world, and the gen pop need never see nor hear from him again.


He already is in the supermax version of California prisons. He still is able to get access to modern tech like cell phones, various contraband, and get his 'word' out because of corrupt prison guards, and followers willing to do his bidding.
   5242. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:05 PM (#4423713)
Wimp.

What an odd post. I don't get the benefit of making up a scenario in your head and then deciding how someone else would react to it, and then denigrating them for behaving that way.


BM--you have this odd talent for thinking one denigrating post I write per long thread is aimed at you when it's nothing of the sort. No offense, but I just wasn't thinking of you, and definitely not to fire off random, insulating salvos just 'cause, when we're not otherwise engaged. Those I save for when people quote Joe on this or that.

btw, Oblivion sucks. They fell in love with the look of the thing and forgot to tell much of a story; and what story they tell is dragged out in order to heighten a reveal that should have been gotten to in the first 20-25 minutes.
   5243. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:05 PM (#4423714)

#5236 I think there's absolutely no evidence that a dead Tsarnaev is a more effective recruiting tool than a live one. Seriously, what supports this view?


He doesn't get his 100 virgins for a long time while he sits in jail? More seriously, I don't really think either Tsarnaev will be seen as a martyr by anyone, I also don't think Manson is capable of doing any harm in prison - just keep him in isolated confinement.
   5244. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:06 PM (#4423715)
He already is in the supermax version of California prisons. He still is able to get access to modern tech like cell phones, various contraband, and get his 'word' out because of corrupt prison guards, and followers willing to do his bidding.


So, we should kill him because prison guards are corrupt? How about we kill them first and see how it goes?
   5245. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:07 PM (#4423717)
I think Sam was assailing the idea that your belief system should trump everyone else's.

Sure, but the vast majority of people, across religions and belief systems, believe in punishment of criminals for the sake of punishment. For the righting of the wrong.

What % of the US population do you think favors Tsarnaev's execution?
   5246. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:09 PM (#4423718)
What % of the US population do you think favors Tsarnaev's execution?


Wrong time to ask that question. What % of the population would have re-elected Bush on March 4, 1991?
   5247. Tripon Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:09 PM (#4423719)

So, we should kill him because prison guards are corrupt? How about we kill them first and see how it goes?


No, the state should execute him because he's a dangerous individual who was convicted of multiple murders. The fact that he's still able to wield influence on other people is a worrying aspects that shows that life in prison and 'throwing away the key' has its own consequences.

Charles Manson is a ghost that is still haunting us today.
   5248. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:09 PM (#4423720)
What % of the US population do you think favors Tsarnaev's execution?


Right now, or in 5 years when his appeals start?

ETA:
And if there is a difference, and I think there would be, then what does that say about the death penalty?
   5249. Steve Treder Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:10 PM (#4423722)
Frankly, a state should not worry about creating martyrs, it can only worry about punishment and rehabilitation.

A state doesn't have the luxury of only worrying about some things but not others. A state has to worry about everything that impacts its citizens. Nobody said it was easy.
   5250. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:11 PM (#4423723)
He already is in the supermax version of California prisons. He still is able to get access to modern tech like cell phones, various contraband, and get his 'word' out because of corrupt prison guards, and followers willing to do his bidding.
Here's where I'm in agreement with "punishment". When I mean locked away from the world, stuff like cell phones, media interviews, etc., none of that has a place in the supermax prisons. I don't want to kill anyone I don't have to, but their separation from civil society should be as total as possible.
   5251. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:14 PM (#4423725)
5221. Misirlou is calling you DUDE! Posted: April 23, 2013 at 04:19 PM (#4423655)
Uh, they weren't "overturned" because they were commuted. I guess you still don't know the difference between the two words.

Appeals courts overturn death sentences; governors commute them.


This is just pathetic.

Knowing the correct meaning of words is "pathetic"?

***
5223. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 23, 2013 at 04:23 PM (#4423661)
Appeals courts overturn death sentences; governors commute them.

What you say is invariably true... except where appeals courts commute death sentences in many jurisdictions.

Better luck next time, Roget.

Good job posting a long list of links that aren't applicable to Florida.
   5252. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:14 PM (#4423726)
No, the state should execute him because he's a dangerous individual who was convicted of multiple murders. The fact that he's still able to wield influence on other people is a worrying aspects that shows that life in prison and 'throwing away the key' has its own consequences.

Charles Manson is a ghost that is still haunting us today.


So is Hitler. Did his death do anything to prevent ###### up people from trying to resurrect his beliefs?
   5253. Shredder Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:15 PM (#4423727)
So we are supposed to believe that somehow in less than five hours, a woman who has severe impairments of her motor and speech functions was able to produce 900 publishable words, and put in an appearance in the White House in the course of it. So I think that's a little bit odd."
Similarly, Taranto is suspicious of major news organizations who publish lengthy obituaries almost as soon as a famous old person is reported to have died. How could they have that sort of stuff ready unless they were in on it?! Reminds me of this.
   5254. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:17 PM (#4423729)
Here's where I'm in agreement with "punishment". When I mean locked away from the world, stuff like cell phones, media interviews, etc., none of that has a place in the supermax prisons. I don't want to kill anyone I don't have to, but their separation from civil society should be as total as possible.


My ideal is that the worst of the worst live a life like that of a Medieval monk. Solitude, silence, contemplation, and reflection. Denied most of the basic comforts and pleasures of the modern world. A clean, well lit, sparsely furnished cell. Limited contact with those inside, and no contact with those outside prison. Simple, but nutritious food. Very basic entertainment (the wiki page on Florence states a B&W TV showing only religious and educational programing) A simple bare space for exercises like pushups and situps. Maybe after 20 years of exceptional behavior, they can start to earn back some privileges. Act up like Manson and the world never see nor hears from you again.
   5255. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:21 PM (#4423733)
Knowing the correct meaning of words is "pathetic"?


Yes. What do you hope to gain from this? The argument isn't about the definition of the procedure by which hundreds came off the FL death row. It never has been. Unless the definitions somehow relate to the $24 mil/execution, you're merely trying to score meaningless points in garbage time.
   5256. The Good Face Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:22 PM (#4423735)
So is Hitler. Did his death do anything to prevent ###### up people from trying to resurrect his beliefs?


But imagine how much worse it would be if the real Hitler was still alive for them to try to resurrect?
   5257. Tripon Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:24 PM (#4423736)


So is Hitler. Did his death do anything to prevent ###### up people from trying to resurrect his beliefs?


Uh, yes? Do you see another country that espouses Nazi-like ideals? Let me put it this way, do you think the Nuremberg trials was unnecessary, and wrong in its conclusions? Do you think the Hague and its handling of international criminals like Slobodan Miljkovi? and others was correct? Do you think a person like Anders Breivik would have any 'followers' if Norway made a special exception to its justice system and executed him?
   5258. Mayor Blomberg Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:30 PM (#4423740)
Do you think a person like Anders Breivik would have any 'followers' if Norway made a special exception to its justice system and executed him?


Yes.
   5259. Gonfalon B. Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:31 PM (#4423741)
Knowing the correct meaning of words is "pathetic"?
...
Good job posting a long list of links that aren't applicable to Florida.


Ah, now I see. "The correct meaning of words" is a Florida-only thing.

Fight on, Black Knight. Fight on.
   5260. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:31 PM (#4423742)
What % of the US population do you think favors Tsarnaev's execution?


Doesn't this basically just break down along political lines? It has here, for the most part.

Timing (e.g., 5 years from now) is irrelevant.

But I think "favor" is too strong a word. I'd go with "favor his execution or wouldn't give to shakes if he were executed."
   5261. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:31 PM (#4423743)
So many emotions...laughter, a vague sense of you being a bad person, a sense that I am a bad person for laughing, confusion as to what that means, more feelings of unease..


I love closing the day with a sense of accomplishment and job well done.
   5262. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:32 PM (#4423744)
What % of the US population do you think favors Tsarnaev's execution?


About the same that supports gun control legislation.
   5263. spike Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:33 PM (#4423747)
So we are supposed to believe that somehow in less than five hours, a woman who has severe impairments of her motor and speech functions was able to produce 900 publishable words, and put in an appearance in the White House in the course of it. So I think that's a little bit odd.

I'm sure he does, given that he's produced so few over the course of his career, let alone 5 hours.
   5264. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:35 PM (#4423749)
Doesn't this basically just break down along political lines?


I'd be surprised if asked today among the general population the answer was lower than 90%
   5265. Tripon Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:36 PM (#4423750)

Yes.


And why is that? I don't see any followers today for Anders Breivik despite him able to espouse his philosophy at every availability. Not even the internet troll version you'll find on 4chan, Reddit, etc.
   5266. Gonfalon B. Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:38 PM (#4423752)
Re: #5262--
Not that it matters, but I favor most reasonable gun control legislation and don't have any special squeamishness about a fairly-applied death penalty. Still open to convincing; I think I've amply proven on this thread that I could be a more evolved person.
   5267. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:38 PM (#4423753)
So we are supposed to believe that somehow in less than five hours, a woman who has severe impairments of her motor and speech functions was able to produce 900 publishable words, and put in an appearance in the White House in the course of it. So I think that's a little bit odd.


The only thing that was "odd" was that liberals and Democrats actually were shocked that a bill that was a blatant attempt to ram through a portion of their wet dream gun control agenda in the wake of a tragedy was seen for what it was and turned back as it should have been.
   5268. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:47 PM (#4423759)
But imagine how much worse it would be if the real Hitler was still alive for them to try to resurrect?

If he's still alive, how can they resurrect him?
   5269. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:48 PM (#4423762)
Knowing the correct meaning of words is "pathetic"?
...
Good job posting a long list of links that aren't applicable to Florida.


Ah, now I see. "The correct meaning of words" is a Florida-only thing.

Simple question: Have over 300 death sentences in Florida been "commuted"?
   5270. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:53 PM (#4423770)
Simple question: Have over 300 death sentences in Florida been "commuted"?


Sorry Joe. You got your one uncontested layup, but now the horn has gone off, and the teams are heading to the locker room.
   5271. Mayor Blomberg Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:53 PM (#4423772)
And why is that? I don't see any followers today for Anders Breivik despite him able to espouse his philosophy at every availability. Not even the internet troll version you'll find on 4chan, Reddit, etc.

Sorry, T, misconstrued the question. I'd like to believe he has no followers now, it'd increase my already high esteem for Norway, but I'm not sure that I do.
   5272. Shredder Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:55 PM (#4423775)
The only thing that was "odd" was that liberals and Democrats actually were shocked that a bill that was a blatant attempt to ram through a portion of their wet dream gun control agenda in the wake of a tragedy was seen for what it was and turned back as it should have been.
Right, Ray. Most "Liberal Wet Dream" legislation is written by the most conservative member of the Dem caucus and one of the more conservative members of the Rep caucus, and routinely polls at 90% with the public. I'm pretty sure that in the real world, as opposed the fantasy world that you occupy, background checks would be about the most conservative portion of liberal wet dream gun legislation. But it does take balls (not exactly brains) to defend the rights of criminals and the mentally ill to legally purchase semi-automatic weapons with high capacity magazines, so you've got that going for you.
   5273. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:56 PM (#4423776)

Tamerlan Tsarnaev abused Katherine Russell with taunts of ‘slut’ and ‘prostitute’ during courtship: roommates

Women who lived with Katherine Russell at Suffolk University described suspected Boston bomber Tamerlan Tsarnaev as violent and manipulative.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/tamerlan-tsarnaev-abused-katherine-russell-taunts-slut-prostitute-courtship-roommates-article-1.1325216#ixzz2RKH8CUgj


He seems like a real peach, this guy.
   5274. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 05:57 PM (#4423778)
But it does take balls (not exactly brains) to defend the rights of criminals and the mentally ill to legally purchase semi-automatic weapons with high capacity magazines, so you've got that going for you.


I never said anything of the sort.
   5275. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 06:18 PM (#4423793)
OXFORD, Miss. — The Mississippi man charged with sending poisoned letters to President Obama, a US senator and a state judge was released from jail on Tuesday, federal official said, though the reason for the release wasn't immediately clear.


Seems like they have zero evidence on the guy.
   5276. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 06:21 PM (#4423795)
Oxford, Mississippi is beautiful this time of year.
   5277. Tripon Posted: April 23, 2013 at 06:32 PM (#4423800)

Seems like they have zero evidence on the guy.


it'll be just like a Law & Order ep. The numbskull detective duo initially messed up, and now Jack McCoy has to save the day and tell the police how to do their job.
   5278. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 23, 2013 at 06:35 PM (#4423802)
Nothing we learn about these guys is good.
Under the tutelage of a friend known to the Tsarnaev family only as Misha, Tamerlan gave up boxing and stopped studying music, his family said. He began opposing the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. He turned to websites and literature claiming that the CIA was behind the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, and Jews controlled the world.

"Somehow, he just took his brain," said Tamerlan's uncle, Ruslan Tsarni, who recalled conversations with Tamerlan's worried father about Misha's influence. Efforts over several days by The Associated Press to identify and interview Misha have been unsuccessful. Link.
A person has to be insane to do what those guys did. These guys not exceptions to the rule.
   5279. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 06:40 PM (#4423804)
So is Hitler. Did his death do anything to prevent ###### up people from trying to resurrect his beliefs?

Uh, yes? Do you see another country that espouses Nazi-like ideals? Let me put it this way, do you think the Nuremberg trials was unnecessary, and wrong in its conclusions? Do you think the Hague and its handling of international criminals like Slobodan Miljkovi? and others was correct? Do you think a person like Anders Breivik would have any 'followers' if Norway made a special exception to its justice system and executed him?


OK, couple of different things here -

Other countries don't follow Nazi-like ideals out of self-preservation. For the most part, countries that follow a practice of rampant expansion eventually end up in wars with a lot of countries and lose. That being said, there are groups that follow Nazi ideals, skin heads being not so noticeable as they were, but they exist, and those groups would be following Hitler whether or not he was in jail or was dead. That is my point regarding Hitler, Manson, Tsarnaev, whomever - dead or alive some people will glorify them and may or may not do stupid things in their name.

Government leader trials (and the Nuremberg Trials) are different. The consequences of their decisions are higher, the security risk to detain them is higher, their deaths mean more. As was referenced earlier, and something I agree with, if a State does not pursue 'justice' then others will take it in their hands to do so. If Milosevic was locked away, I think there is a very real chance a Croat somewhere tries to kill him or bombs someone to show the injustice of a living Milosevic. What Tsarnaev did was terrible, but it is no way close to the actions of Milosevic or Hussein or Hitler. I view executing people like this the same way I do war - morally a bad thing, but sometimes it has to be done, morals be damned.
   5280. Gonfalon B. Posted: April 23, 2013 at 06:41 PM (#4423805)
Simple question: Have over 300 death sentences in Florida been "commuted"?

Joe, I know you'd like to try and upgrade your loss into some kind of epic battle from beyond the grave. Your shtick is dull. I posted the most comprehensive stat breakdown I could find in #5152. Some extra data can be gleaned from other posts; e.g. 22 additional death penalty sentences in 2012 and 1 in 1972, approximately 20-something overturned convictions as part of the 447 overall changes to sentences (some of the 24 have come after the chart's 2009 cutoff; I don't know how many). You want more, you find it.

Enjoy the numbers, argue with them, reject them because the 7's don't have that little slash mark through the middle. I am right, you are wrong, and my orgasms are of greater duration and potency.
   5281. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 06:49 PM (#4423812)
Enjoy the numbers, argue with them, reject them because the 7's don't have that little slash mark through the middle


All 7's should have slashes through the middle, I think we can all agree on that.
   5282. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 23, 2013 at 06:50 PM (#4423813)
5281: I disagree, and if I didn't believe in killing, I'd kill you.
   5283. Steve Treder Posted: April 23, 2013 at 06:55 PM (#4423816)
if I didn't believe in killing, I'd kill you.

Wait, what?
   5284. Greg K Posted: April 23, 2013 at 06:56 PM (#4423817)
All 7's should have slashes through the middle, I think we can all agree on that.

About 5 or 6 years ago I started putting slashes through sevens. Now I can't get enough of it!

Other fun moves...
the top part of a 3 as an acute angle rather than a curve, an 8 as one continuous looping line, or two circles?
   5285. Manny Coon Posted: April 23, 2013 at 06:57 PM (#4423818)
Charles Manson is a ghost that is still haunting us today.


I think Manson is less scary because he's still alive. His young, dangerous, charismatic cult leader type image has been replaced with an old, pathetic, frail piece of crap crazy old man that has been locked away for a long time, abused and set on fire by other prisoners and unable to hurt anyone.
   5286. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 23, 2013 at 07:22 PM (#4423826)
Joe, I know you'd like to try and upgrade your loss into some kind of epic battle from beyond the grave. Your shtick is dull. I posted the most comprehensive stat breakdown I could find in #5152. Some extra data can be gleaned from other posts; e.g. 22 additional death penalty sentences in 2012 and 1 in 1972, approximately 20-something overturned convictions as part of the 447 overall changes to sentences (some of the 24 have come after the chart's 2009 cutoff; I don't know how many). You want more, you find it.

Enjoy the numbers, argue with them, reject them because the 7's don't have that little slash mark through the middle. I am right, you are wrong, and my orgasms are of greater duration and potency.

Last week, Gonfalon Bubble wouldn't shut up because he objected to the use of the word "suspect" to describe a person who had his apartment searched by the police. This week, he's pretending "overturned" and "commuted" are synonyms, while also claiming that, in a discussion about the average cost of something, the numerator doesn't matter. Funny stuff.
   5287. spike Posted: April 23, 2013 at 07:23 PM (#4423828)
   5288. Steve Treder Posted: April 23, 2013 at 07:50 PM (#4423854)
This is interestingly relevant to our discussion about justice and punishment:

And we want justice. On the day of the slaughter the president assured the nation and the world that the sadists in Boston would feel the righteous clamp of justice. Boston officials proclaimed justice served after the death of one bomber and the capture of the other. But the word sounds more substantial that it actually is, as if justice will raise the dead, reattach limbs, solder torn arteries, calm the traumatized, siphon the blood from the sidewalk back into the bodies of the slain. It will not. The president and city officials mean punishment. And punishment—one brother is dead, the other will likely be executed or else incarcerated for life—is necessary in that it might mitigate slightly our fanged grief and, more practically, it removes two sadists from our midst. Justice is a crucial and beautiful ideal before bodies are rent to shreds on a city sidewalk. After that, it’s pure punishment—nothing solved, nothing mended.
   5289. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 07:53 PM (#4423856)
But the word sounds more substantial that it actually is, as if justice will raise the dead, reattach limbs, solder torn arteries, calm the traumatized, siphon the blood from the sidewalk back into the bodies of the slain.


Huh? No, the word doesn't sound like this at all. It sounds like punishment, as he says.

EDIT: And what the President _means_ by justice is not merely "punishment" - it's that we will go through a civilized process before meting out the punishment.
   5290. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 08:01 PM (#4423867)
5281: I disagree, and if I didn't believe in killing, I'd kill you.


For all your brash talk I know I have nothing to fear from a simpleton who doesn't even know how to write a "7" properly.
   5291. Steve Treder Posted: April 23, 2013 at 08:03 PM (#4423868)
No, the word doesn't sound like this at all. It sounds like punishment, as he says.

So, what's the difference between justice and punishment?
   5292. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 08:04 PM (#4423871)
So, what's the difference between justice and punishment?


See my edit to 5289.
   5293. Steve Treder Posted: April 23, 2013 at 08:05 PM (#4423872)
So, justice is the system, punishment the product of the system?
   5294. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 08:06 PM (#4423873)
No, justice isn't the system per se; it's the concept of fairness.

EDIT: And the concept of fairness is achieved by due process, the right to counsel, the right to a jury trial in this case, etc etc. The justice system is the mechanism or vehicle by which we implement the concept of fairness, but the overarching concept is fairness -- i.e., that we will not punish him vigilante style as he did to his unsuspecting victims but we will put him through a fair process.
   5295. Steve Treder Posted: April 23, 2013 at 08:09 PM (#4423876)
Fair enough. (No pun intended.) Have to sign off for now.
   5296. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 23, 2013 at 08:17 PM (#4423888)
Right. Note that (speaking generally) the point of our justice system is not to determine The Truth. I know that shocks people. But trials are not a search for the truth; they are a search for justice. Why? First, because we recognize that The Truth is not always attainable for us as mere mortals; so we settle for justice instead.

The second reason is because we want to have a civilized and fair process. As Dershowitz has said, if our primary goal were the truth, we would do all sorts of things - we would torture people; we would not exclude illegally obtained evidence, or evidence deemed more prejudicial than probative. Instead, we place civility and fairness over truth.
   5297. Mefisto Posted: April 23, 2013 at 08:26 PM (#4423897)
Eh, trials don't have all that much to do with justice, per se. As a practical matter, they're contests of evidence. Whether justice results from that is in the eye of the beholder.
   5298. Howie Menckel Posted: April 23, 2013 at 08:29 PM (#4423901)

not to get off-topic, but

the guy who found the suspect on his boat speaks:

http://www.wcvb.com/news/local/metro...q/-/index.html

so many famous people suck that you forget how many people don't suck:

"Henneberry is aware of a growing social media movement to buy him a boat to replace the Slip Away II, but he does not want it.

"It makes me feel wonderful that people that are thinking like that, but it is my boat. People lost lives and lost limbs. I'd rather that (the money) go to the One Fund Boston. They lost limbs. I lost a boat," he said.

"Slip Away is slipping away. But I say it did its job. It held a bad guy and is going away like a Viking ship."

   5299. zenbitz Posted: April 23, 2013 at 08:52 PM (#4423931)
Honest question: What crimes can we attribute to Manson followers after he was locked away in vacavlle? How many of these followers were introduced to him after his incarceration?
   5300. Monty Predicts a Padres-Mariners WS in 2016 Posted: April 23, 2013 at 08:58 PM (#4423941)
What crimes can we attribute to Manson followers after he was locked away in vacavlle?


Well, Squeaky Fromme took a shot at Gerald Ford.

(EDIT: There's also something about a murder in Stockton)
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