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Sunday, March 31, 2013

OTP: April 2013: Daily Caller: Baseball and the GOP: To rebrand the party, think like a sports fan

This week’s GOP autopsy report, commissioned by RNC Chairman Reince Priebus, is a great start in the much-needed task of rebranding the Republican Party. As the chairman acknowledged, “the way we communicate our principles isn’t resonating widely enough” and “we have to be more inclusive.” The report contains 219 recommendations to “connect people to our principles.” To achieve that goal, the party will need a strategic vision of how voters think about politics, which is something that the report lacks. For that, the GOP can learn a lot from another American passion: baseball.

This year, about 75 million Americans will go to the baseball stadium to watch a ballgame, about the same number as those who will vote in next year’s election. We rarely think about why someone becomes a baseball fan, or why they root for a certain team. Nor do we usually think about why someone chooses to vote for a certain political party. But it’s actually a very useful exercise.

When it comes to baseball, fan loyalty has almost nothing to do with the brain, and almost everything to do with the heart. In all of history, there’s never been a baseball fan who rooted for his team because it had the lowest ticket prices, or because it had the most taxpayer-friendly stadium deal, or because its players did the most community service. For the vast majority of Americans, rooting for a baseball team — not to mention, voting for a political party — isn’t really a rational choice; it’s more of a statement of personal identity — a statement telling the world, “This is who I am.” And for most people, defining “who I am” starts with family and community, before branching out into areas like race, age, gender, and class.

Family is pretty straightforward. If your mom and dad are Yankee fans, you’re almost certainly a Yankee fan. The same is true in politics. If your mom and dad are Republicans, you’re almost certainly a Republican.

Community is also pretty straightforward. If you grew up in, say, Philadelphia, chances are pretty great you’re a Phillies fan. Likewise, someone who grew up in Republican territory like, say, suburban Dallas or rural Indiana is much more likely to become a Republican than a nearly identical person from Seattle or Santa Fe.

Cities with more than one baseball team, like New York or Chicago, show revealing breakdowns by race and gender. The racial split in Chicago between Cubs fans on the North Side and White Sox fans on the South Side is well-documented. In New York, there’s an intriguing gender gap between Mets and Yankee fans, with women gravitating a lot more to the Yanks. While there’s a few theories out there trying to explain that, one obvious answer leaps out: Yankees heartthrob Derek Jeter.

In sports, as in politics, people’s convictions can’t be conveniently reduced to who their parents are or what they look like. But those things are an important foundation, upon which more rational sentiments come into being. Once you’re attached to your team on an emotional level — seeing them as a personal reflection of who you are and what you care about most — a rational exterior comes into being through phrases like “the Red Sox are the best team because they have the most heart” or “the Republicans are the best party because they know how to create jobs.”

Tripon Posted: March 31, 2013 at 10:52 AM | 6544 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

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   5401. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: April 24, 2013 at 11:32 AM (#4424392)
If they're being investigated, start with the presumption that they should be deported and work from there.


So, if you're a rabid nationalist, here's what you do. Call the police and report any neighbor who looks "foreign" to you for domestic violence or suspicious activity. Maybe you saw them walking into their home with a brand new pressure cooker or something.

Once they are investigated, notify the proper authorities that your foreign neighbors were investigated for something and should be deported.
   5402. Ron J2 Posted: April 24, 2013 at 11:32 AM (#4424393)
Woman wouldn't testify because she was terrified he'd do worse.


We don't know why she wouldn't testify. What I've read is that she accused him of cheating on her and he hit her. I know enough about breakups that I'd want to be sure of my ground here.
   5403. Mayor Blomberg Posted: April 24, 2013 at 11:35 AM (#4424397)
While the EPA and the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) are responsible for overseeing safety at such fertilizer plants, they do not regulate the handling or storage of ammonium nitrate.

That responsibility falls mostly under the DHS, which is tasked with aiding in the measurement of plant risks and devising relevant safety plans once the relevant information is passed on by the company.

Under this scheme of self-reporting, fertilizer operations can be fined or shut down for failing to inform the DHS of significant volumes of hazardous chemicals. More than 4,000 sites are currently subject to the DHS program.

Although the DHS is empowered to carry out on the spot inspections at such facilities, budgetary constraints and a “small number” of field auditors have hindered the department’s monitoring regime, the source told Reuters.

Failing to receive a so-called top-screen report from West Fertilizer, the plant flew under the DHS radar, bypassing the Chemical Facility Anti-Terrorism Standards Act (CFATS).


   5404. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: April 24, 2013 at 11:36 AM (#4424398)
Should we deport every foreigner that the FBI investigates regardless of what they find?


Pretty much, yes. If you want to become a citizen/permanent resident, you should be above suspicion. If not, back to the #### hole from whence you came.

If so, what's the point of investigating them?


So we can figure out who to deport silly. If they're being investigated, start with the presumption that they should be deported and work from there. They aren't criminal defendents in a court of law.

How to investigate furriners and terrorists, Good Face style
   5405. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 11:38 AM (#4424399)
We don't know why she wouldn't testify. What I've read is that she accused him of cheating on her and he hit her. I know enough about breakups that I'd want to be sure of my ground here.


Maybe in isolation, but why here? Why would we give him the benefit of the doubt given that a foreign government had already warned us about him?
   5406. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 24, 2013 at 11:40 AM (#4424403)
Boy, not a good couple of days for the right wing, supposed limited government folks.

You have the Republican congressman from NY who wants to torture Tsaranev for information

You have Rand Paul who wants to have a domestic drone program over our major cities and instill the death penalty for petty theft

You have guys here who want to government to apply the Potter Stewart standard for who gets the death penalty

You have others (many of the same) who want to government to be able to deport people just on a suspicion of a suspicion of wrongdoing.

Any other powers you would like to give them? Taking your money at gunpoint maybe?
   5407. The Good Face Posted: April 24, 2013 at 11:40 AM (#4424404)
So, if you're a rabid nationalist, here's what you do. Call the police and report any neighbor who looks "foreign" to you for domestic violence or suspicious activity. Maybe you saw them walking into their home with a brand new pressure cooker or something.

Once they are investigated, notify the proper authorities that your foreign neighbors were investigated for something and should be deported.


Nice try, but our bombing Borat brother was actually arrested for domestic violence at the behest of his beaten girlfriend. Also, the Russian government explicitly identified him as a potential terrorist and asked the FBI to check him out. Either seems like a good reason to conclude that this guy probably isn't going to be an asset worth keeping around.
   5408. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 11:41 AM (#4424405)
You don't get to be a stay at home Mom or Dad if you're receiving welfare. If one income can't support you and your child, both need to work.

If you can't afford daycare (unlike since there is heavily subsidized, if not free, daycare for most welfare recipients) you can work opposite shifts.
   5409. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: April 24, 2013 at 11:42 AM (#4424406)
Nice try, but our bombing Borat brother was actually arrested for domestic violence at the behest of his beaten girlfriend. Also, the Russian government explicitly identified him as a potential terrorist and asked the FBI to check him out. Either seems like a good reason to conclude that this guy probably isn't going to be an asset worth keeping around.


Dear authoritarian governments. If you want a refugee from the US to be deported back to his nation of origin, from which he has fled you, simply call the FBI and tell them he's probably a terrorist.
   5410. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 11:43 AM (#4424409)

Pretty much, yes. If you want to become a citizen/permanent resident, you should be above suspicion.


How many of our ancestors could pass this bar?
   5411. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: April 24, 2013 at 11:44 AM (#4424410)
From there, however, the narrative presented to the AP begins to catchup with the self-radicalization being suggested by federal sources. According to his brother-in-law, Tamerlan more recently turned to the Internet, where he took an interest in InfoWars—a conspiracy theory website that has since suggested that the Boston bombing was a "false flag" operation—and attempted to find a copy of The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, an anti-Semitic work claiming a Jewish plot to take over the world. Federal officials, meanwhile, say that the brothers got instructions on how to build bombs from an online magazine published by al-Qaida.


Now this is getting interesting. Some sort of wackadoodle mix of AQ and Alex Jones? All sorts of stupid.
   5412. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: April 24, 2013 at 11:44 AM (#4424411)
You don't get to be a stay at home Mom or Dad if you're receiving welfare. If one income can't support you and your child, both need to work.


Supporters of the traditional family, indeed.
   5413. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 24, 2013 at 11:45 AM (#4424412)
Now this is getting interesting. Some sort of wackadoodle mix of AQ and Alex Jones? All sorts of stupid.


Maybe Greg (I think it was him) can still win his bet.
   5414. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 24, 2013 at 11:46 AM (#4424414)
Supporters of the traditional family, indeed.


Don't forget him strongly implying that staying at home and caring for a child is not work.
   5415. Lassus Posted: April 24, 2013 at 11:50 AM (#4424419)
Also, the Russian government explicitly identified him as a potential terrorist and asked the FBI to check him out.

Lies can be claimed all around, but I believe that the statement from the FBI was that the Russian request was not at all explicit, and was in fact too vague to be followed up on properly. Attempts by the FBI to get more information from Russia were apparently ignored.
   5416. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 11:52 AM (#4424421)
Supporters of the traditional family, indeed.

No definition of the traditional family includes being on welfare.

Don't forget him strongly implying that staying at home and caring for a child is not work.

I bet this clown did about as much child care as I do, and I don't have kids. If we look into it, I bet the wife's parents were watching the kid while he pursued his "other interests". It is highly unlikely that a subscriber to militant Islam is going to be Mr. Mom.
   5417. The Good Face Posted: April 24, 2013 at 11:52 AM (#4424422)
Dear authoritarian governments. If you want a refugee from the US to be deported back to his nation of origin, from which he has fled you, simply call the FBI and tell them he's probably a terrorist.


And if we'd listened to that authoritarian government, 4 people would still be alive today and many more wouldn't have been grievously injured. Besides, deporting that guy back into Chechnya wouldn't have been doing the Russians any favors.

How many of our ancestors could pass this bar?


Mine did. Get a job, pay taxes, don't get arrested. Not a huge ask.
   5418. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 11:53 AM (#4424423)
Pretty much, yes. If you want to become a citizen/permanent resident, you should be above suspicion.

How many of our ancestors could pass this bar?


Not mine, they were apparently making matzoh with the blood of Christian children.
   5419. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 11:54 AM (#4424425)
Lies can be claimed all around, but I believe that the statement from the FBI was that the Russian request was not at all explicit, and was in fact too vague to be followed up on properly. Attempts by the FBI to get more information from Russia were apparently ignored.

But, if they had continued to monitor him they would have found his jihadist postings on YouTube and a 6 month trip to Dagestan (which is pretty odd for an unemployed guy with a family). That should have been enough to boot him.
   5420. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 11:54 AM (#4424426)

No definition of the traditional family includes being on welfare.


That's very cool. Can you write getting cancer out of the traditional family, too? That would be really useful.
   5421. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 11:56 AM (#4424430)
Mine did. Get a job, pay taxes, don't get arrested. Not a huge ask.

Yeah, none of my parents, or grandparents, or great grandparents have ever been arrested or on welfare, including two single parent families (one widow, one widower) who lived through the great depression. It's not a high bar.
   5422. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 24, 2013 at 11:58 AM (#4424433)
And if we'd listened to that authoritarian government, 4 people would still be alive today and many more wouldn't have been grievously injured.


"Lies can be claimed all around, but I believe that the statement from the FBI was that the Russian request was not at all explicit, and was in fact too vague to be followed up on properly. Attempts by the FBI to get more information from Russia were apparently ignored."

And Tom Neidenfuer should have walked Ozzie Smith.

Besides, deporting that guy back into Chechnya wouldn't have been doing the Russians any favors.


As if they wouldn't have arrested him the moment he stepped off the plane.

   5423. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 11:58 AM (#4424435)
That's very cool. Can you write getting cancer out of the traditional family, too? That would be really useful.

Is there another conception of "traditional family" besides husband works and supports family financially, wife stay home and takes care of the children and the house?

I've never heard of the traditional model where the husband is a lazy bum and lets his wife work the taxpayer support his kids, while he engages in jihadist rhetoric and plots terror attacks
   5424. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 24, 2013 at 12:03 PM (#4424440)
But, if they had continued to monitor him they would have found his jihadist postings on YouTube and a 6 month trip to Dagestan


Add this to the list of powers the right wants to grant the government. More of your money to be taken at gunpoint I'm afraid. Good God almighty, how big do you want the FBI to be?

Russia - This guy might be a terrorist. investigate him

FBI - can you be more specific?

Russia - no

FBI, well, we couldn't find anything. Really, some more specifics would be helpful...Hello, is anybody there? Is this thing working?

FBI - Screw it, put another dozen agents on him for the next 3 years. We'll get the money from snapper and his friends.
   5425. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 24, 2013 at 12:05 PM (#4424443)
Is there another conception of "traditional family" besides husband works and supports family financially, wife stay home and takes care of the children and the house?


Yes, mine, where my wife works, because she can earn a lot more than I can, and I stay home and take care of the kids. I realize that's not very 18th century of us , but try to move forward a couple of hundred years, OK?

edit: Oh, and I love the part where your grandparents didn't receive any welfare in the 30's. I suppose they went without internet, cell phones, and satellite TV as well.
   5426. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 12:05 PM (#4424444)
Add this to the list of powers the right wants to grant the government. More of your money to be taken at gunpoint I'm afraid. Good God almighty, how big do you want the FBI to be?

Russia - This guy might be a terrorist. investigate him

FBI - can you be more specific?

Russia - no

FBI, well, we couldn't find anything. Really, some more specifics would be helpful...Hello, is anybody there? Is this thing working?

FBI - Screw it, put another dozen agents on him for the next 3 years. We'll get the money from snapper and his friends.


What a fallacious argument.

A 10 min web search and a check of his passport records once a month would have revealed this stuff. One FBI agent could monitor 500+ Tsarnayevs at a time.

And yes, this is where I want my tax dollars spent.
   5427. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: April 24, 2013 at 12:06 PM (#4424446)
No definition of the traditional family includes being on welfare.


You live in a convenient world where you get to define out of existence anything that complicates your preferred ideology. How pleasant for you.

I bet this clown did about as much child care as I do, and I don't have kids. If we look into it, I bet the wife's parents were watching the kid while he pursued his "other interests". It is highly unlikely that a subscriber to militant Islam is going to be Mr. Mom.


Does it hurt when you pull #### out of your ass like that, or do you lube up first?
   5428. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: April 24, 2013 at 12:07 PM (#4424447)
Dear authoritarian governments. If you want a refugee from the US to be deported back to his nation of origin, from which he has fled you, simply call the FBI and tell them he's probably a terrorist.

That'd be the best recruiting method that Fidel Castro could ever come up with. At some point we'd be better off just giving him Miami and kill two birds with one stone by ridding ourselves of the Marlins problem.
   5429. The Good Face Posted: April 24, 2013 at 12:09 PM (#4424448)
No, the process should be;

Russia - This guy might be a terrorist. investigate him

FBI - *does cursory check* Unemployed loser with domestic violence arrest on his record? He'll be on a plane by next week.

Fin.
   5430. Lassus Posted: April 24, 2013 at 12:10 PM (#4424449)
But, if they had continued to monitor him they would have found his jihadist postings on YouTube

Wasn't it that he liked or put on his playlist an already-posted video with a jihadist message or music(singular)? I hadn't heard he had posted anything, let alone multiples.

NOTE: I'm not convinced deporting him would have been any kind of terrible idea, but I do want to keep my facts straight.
   5431. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: April 24, 2013 at 12:11 PM (#4424450)
No, the process should be;


A pipe dream of simplicity that never ever exists in reality. Next you'll demand that Jason Bourne kill all of our enemies with secret ninja moves, I suppose.
   5432. Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band. Posted: April 24, 2013 at 12:13 PM (#4424453)
Is there another conception of "traditional family" besides husband works and supports family financially, wife stay home and takes care of the children and the house?

Wait. When my ex got pregnant, she was earning more than me and we discussed my becoming a stay-at-home dad (beyond financial issues - I'd played a significant role in raising a younger brother, albeit for a short period of time, and had spent hundreds of hours babysitting - her experience with kids was largely confined to being 'the cool aunt').
Lack of welfare acceptance aside, would you have had a 'problem' with that?

***

Also, I think you've said that you've accepted unemployment benefits before - am I mistaken (could have been just benefits from your former employers)? If so, is that a case where that program is okay but others aren't?
   5433. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 24, 2013 at 12:15 PM (#4424457)
snapper, if your views in real life are anything like you post here, and are in anyway representative of the Catholic Church, then I am embarrassed to have once been a Catholic. You are just about the most immoral, uncaring, selfish person I have ever had the displeasure to meet.
   5434. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 12:15 PM (#4424459)
I've never heard of the traditional model where the husband is a lazy bum and lets his wife work the taxpayer support his kids, while he engages in jihadist rhetoric and plots terror attacks


And while he is flagged by foreign governments, demeaning his child's mother with affectionate terms such as "prostitute" and "slut," beating her, and making jihadist youtube playlists.

Just your typical stay-at-home American dad!

Except when he's not "at home" at all, because he's on a 6 month trip to Dagestan.
   5435. Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band. Posted: April 24, 2013 at 12:18 PM (#4424465)
You are just about the most immoral, uncaring, selfish person I have ever had the displeasure to meet

I do not cosign.
   5436. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 12:22 PM (#4424468)
I'm not clear whether he was questioned in connection with this triple homicide. If so, we can add that to the list.

Or maybe that's unfair. I mean, surely most of us have been questioned in connection with triple homicides? Or at least most stay-at-home American dads?
   5437. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: April 24, 2013 at 12:27 PM (#4424473)
I've never heard of the traditional model where the husband is a lazy bum

Be sure to let all the stay at home moms know, that you consider them layzy bums.
   5438. BDC Posted: April 24, 2013 at 12:29 PM (#4424475)
Come to think of it, I don't believe my parents or grandparents were ever imprisoned or on welfare. Numerous great-aunts and great-uncles were. I'll conclude that the refined genetic line that produced me weeded out those bad/freeloader genes, at least as long as BDC Jr. stays out of jail.
   5439. Lassus Posted: April 24, 2013 at 12:29 PM (#4424476)
I'm not clear whether he was questioned in connection with this triple homicide.

It's pretty clear he wasn't, actually.

Again, I personally think deportation based on the other info was probably fine, but this is childish.
   5440. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 12:32 PM (#4424482)
I'm not clear whether he was questioned in connection with this triple homicide. If so, we can add that to the list.


CNN was saying he was never questioned (or considered a person of interest or suspect) regarding the homicides. Take that for whatever it's worth, CNN could very well come out and say the police had him in jail for a while, but that is what they said last night.

I mean, other than that though, continue jumping to conclusions and making judgements about someone you don't know #### about. The guy was an ass, clearly, from the FACTS we know, why is there this need to pile more and more #### on him, it just makes you all sound bad. To be clear, the lazy, no way he is a good parent, or even did any parenting at all, horrible person for accepting welfare, slit his friends throat comments are all judgements being ascribed to him with no proof. Just stop. The facts are enough to judge him a terrible person.
   5441. BrianBrianson Posted: April 24, 2013 at 12:36 PM (#4424488)
I'm extremely skeptical of the idea that anyone here actually knows whether their grandparents (or great-grandparents!) were arrested, if the answer is no. Convicted of a serious crime, maybe (though my grandfather's first marriage didn't come out until after his death, assuming it wasn't actually his second+ marriage). But never spent a night in the drunk tank? It's beyond ridiculous to claim you know this, unless they were a celebrity of serious note.
   5442. BDC Posted: April 24, 2013 at 12:39 PM (#4424489)
never spent a night in the drunk tank? It's beyond ridiculous to claim you know this

Point taken. Though the way my other drunken and criminal relatives talked about one another, I can't imagine they'd have missed a chance to tell me about Grandpa.
   5443. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 12:42 PM (#4424493)
I mean, other than that though, continue jumping to conclusions and making judgements about someone you don't know #### about.


No jumping is needed to conclude that the Russian government warned us about him or that by following him the FBI would have stumbled upon his youtube playlists. Unless you're arguing that the FBI doesn't know how to Google someone.

(But his last name was spelled wrong on his airline ticket! So the FBI couldn't possibly have been expected to discover his trip!)

The guy was an ass, clearly,


So was Hitler. (There.) But does the Russian government warn us about everyone they think is an "ass," or might there have been something more than that?

To be clear, the lazy, no way he is a good parent, or even did any parenting at all,


Tough to do parenting while away in Dagestan for six months.
   5444. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 24, 2013 at 12:42 PM (#4424494)
I do part time work in construction/handyman type jobs. A few years ago, I was replacing a bathtub in a rental unit. The tenant was not home at the time, and landlord let us in. The tenant had a huge DVD collection and a large screen TV, which we had to move in order to get the old tub out and the new one in. After the job, we put the TV and DVD's back where they were, and left before the tenant got home. That night I got a call from a detective saying that the tenant claims his DVDs and TV are gone, and what do I know about it? I gave him my story and he said he'd be in touch. Having not heard anything for about a week, I contacted a friend in the prosecutors office to see if he could find out anything. He told me the tenant was being charged with insurance fraud. He saw his items had been moved and thought he could make a quick 10 grand. Cops found out he had a rented storage unit and found his stuff in there.

Had I been an immigrant, some here would have had me deported for having been investigated for a felony
   5445. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 24, 2013 at 12:47 PM (#4424499)
But does the Russian government warn us about everyone they think is an "ass," or might there have been something more than that?


It probably was more than that. Now they may be playing CYA, but as noted above, the FBI claims the threat warning was light on details and follow up requests were ignored. How much FBI man hours do you want to spend on such a nebulous tip?
   5446. Mayor Blomberg Posted: April 24, 2013 at 12:51 PM (#4424502)

Had I been an immigrant, some here would have had me deported for having been investigated for a felony


and banned as well from posting on BBTF
   5447. Darkness and the howling fantods Posted: April 24, 2013 at 12:52 PM (#4424503)

Who cares? We're not locking him up, just - based on this and the other factors - getting him the hell away from us.

I really feel like you missed the part of law school where they discussed due process. It doesn't just apply to throwing someone in prison.
   5448. bunyon Posted: April 24, 2013 at 12:53 PM (#4424509)
My grandfather was never arrested. He did flee the state once for beating a couple of guys, one nearly to death, who had the previous month beaten and robbed him. He was gone for a few mnths and it all blew over.

Of course, our family had been in the Americas for a 150 years at that point but before that the worst anyone had done was own some slaves.

They should have deported Papa of course. The Bronze Star and his 45 year teaching career really weren't worth having that sort of lout around.
   5449. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 12:54 PM (#4424510)
I mean, other than that though, continue jumping to conclusions and making judgements about someone you don't know #### about.



No jumping is needed to conclude that the Russian government warned us about him or that by following him the FBI would have stumbled upon his youtube playlists. Unless you're arguing that the FBI doesn't know how to Google someone.

Do you know what the Russian gov said to the FBI? No, you don't. Stop saying stupid #### when you don't have any idea what was reported to the US. From what I have heard he didn't have anything on his youtube playlists at the time of the Russian call - but either way, without knowing the conversation and without knowing what the FBI did, I am going to reserve judgement on that until we know a bit more of what actually happened.

The guy was an ass, clearly,


So was Hitler. (There.) But does the Russian government warn us about everyone they think is an "ass," or might there have been something more than that?


I don't know, do you? Hoe many people get reported by the Russian gov? 10 a year? 10 a day? Is it a list that gets faxed over once a month with a bunch of names on it? Was there a specific call from one Russian agent to his established contact in the FBI? The answers to these questions matter, you can't judge anything until they are known.

To be clear, the lazy, no way he is a good parent, or even did any parenting at all,


Tough to do parenting while away in Dagestan for six months.
There must be a ton of shitty parents in the military then. You should bring that up in your next conversation with someone who has served overseas. Tell them how they are lazy, irresponsible parents for enlisting.
   5450. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 12:56 PM (#4424512)
It probably was more than that. Now they may be playing CYA, but as noted above, the FBI claims the threat warning was light on details and follow up requests were ignored. How much FBI man hours do you want to spend on such a nebulous tip?


A lot. I mean, we're spending money to hire famous people to sing for Obama. But how many "man hours" are needed to periodically google him and run an updated background check?
   5451. Darkness and the howling fantods Posted: April 24, 2013 at 12:58 PM (#4424516)
No, the process should be;

Russia - This guy might be a terrorist. investigate him

FBI - *does cursory check* Unemployed loser with domestic violence arrest on his record? He'll be on a plane by next week.

Fin.

You'd apply this to Cuban refugees as well right? Chinese political dissidents?
   5452. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 12:59 PM (#4424520)
You live in a convenient world where you get to define out of existence anything that complicates your preferred ideology. How pleasant for you.

There was no welfare during most of the period of the "traditional family", you're just distorting common understanding to make your ridiculous point.

Does it hurt when you pull #### out of your ass like that, or do you lube up first?

You really think someone committed to radical Islam is going to engage in "woman's work"?
   5453. Lassus Posted: April 24, 2013 at 01:00 PM (#4424521)
The Bronze Star and his 45 year teaching career

PUBLIC school? Deportation is too good. Just another vacation.

   5454. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 01:00 PM (#4424524)

Do you know what the Russian gov said to the FBI? No, you don't


Sure I do. At minimum, "He is a threat." That's all that was needed.

Tough to do parenting while away in Dagestan for six months.

There must be a ton of shitty parents in the military then.


Yes. And? Parenting-in-absentia does not magically become better just because the person has a good reason for being away. But at least military parents do have a good reason. What was this guy's?
   5455. Lassus Posted: April 24, 2013 at 01:06 PM (#4424528)
Sure I do. At minimum, "He is a threat." That's all that was needed.

You truly don't know that is what they said, at minimum or any other value.
   5456. Steve Treder Posted: April 24, 2013 at 01:06 PM (#4424529)
There was no welfare during most of the period of the "traditional family"

There weren't the public programs that exist in the US today. But there were various different forms of charitable and religious-organized programs providing financial and practical assistance to the poor. To proclaim certainty that one's grandparents, great-grandparents etc. never took a dime of charity is, at best, sanctimonious foolishness, and in any case it bears no relationship to one's moral purity.
   5457. Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band. Posted: April 24, 2013 at 01:07 PM (#4424531)
For what it's worth, I know a guy from North Africa (an observant Muslim at that) who travels overseas for a month or two a year to see family - the rest of the year he's a pretty dedicated stay-at-home dad (he's relatively new to English and has difficulty finding decent paying work - his wife has a steady job). It's somewhat of an economic hardship for their family - they're not well off - but she knew before they married that he viewed that travel as an obligation, something he needed to do. (Her parents watch the kids while he's out of the country.)
So... no welfare or domestic abuse and such at work here (that I know of) - is he a bad parent?

(No, this isn't a great parallel for Tamerlan.)
   5458. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 01:15 PM (#4424541)
Yes. And? Parenting-in-absentia does not magically become better just because the person has a good reason for being away. But at least military parents do have a good reason. What was this guy's?


Fine, if you want to make a blanket statement and proclaim parenting-in-absentia is a bad thing for everyone, then go for it. I am just objecting to heaping insults or attributing negative things to Tamerlan (who again, is an awful person) without actual knowledge of them. If being overseas without his kid(s) for a while is in and of itself a bad thing, then go right ahead with that view.

EDIT:
Just makes you more of a robot! Heh, just wanted to make sure we still hold you as the #1 droid here, there seemed to be a bit of confusion on that.
   5459. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 01:17 PM (#4424543)
I do think that it is a prerequisite for being a good parent that you actually be around. (What a shocking concept!) In any event, the notion was floated that this lunatic was a "stay at home" dad, which can't be the case if he took 6 months off.
   5460. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 24, 2013 at 01:20 PM (#4424549)
I am just objecting to heaping insults or attributing negative things to Tamerlan (who again, is an awful person) without actual knowledge of them.

Why? He's dead and can't be defamed, and he's a terrorist puke who blew up the Boston Marathon (and likely corrupted his younger brother). Another few "negative" things would be a rounding error in the general ledger of his time on Earth.
   5461. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: April 24, 2013 at 01:21 PM (#4424552)
Just your typical stay-at-home American dad!


Remove Islam and replace it with Protestant Christianity, remove jihadist playlists and replace it with Infowars paranoia about "Kenyan socialists" in the White House and you have at least a plurality of the rural south / Appalachia. Domestic violence is not a differentiator, nor is believing crazy conspiracy theories.
   5462. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: April 24, 2013 at 01:22 PM (#4424555)
One of my great grandfathers died with a shot gun slug in his belly, as a lawman.

One of my other great grandfathers was the bootlegger that put the slug in his gut.

Does only half of me get deported?
   5463. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: April 24, 2013 at 01:23 PM (#4424556)
Why? He's dead and can't be defamed, and he's a terrorist puke who blew up the Boston Marathon (and likely corrupted his younger brother). Another few "negative" things would be a rounding error in the general ledger of his time on Earth.


Because making up bullshit just because he's dead doesn't implicate him, it implicates you.
   5464. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 01:24 PM (#4424557)
I am just objecting to heaping insults or attributing negative things to Tamerlan (who again, is an awful person) without actual knowledge of them.

Why?


Who knows. Apparently, we not only can't put to death such an "awful person" (e.g., his brother) but we can't even insult him or "attribute negative things" to him.
   5465. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 01:25 PM (#4424558)

Is there another conception of "traditional family" besides husband works and supports family financially, wife stay home and takes care of the children and the house?


So you're saying that during the Great Depression, when millions of men lost their jobs and had to stand in line at the soup kitchen, that their families automatically ceased to be 'traditional families'?

   5466. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 01:27 PM (#4424559)
So you're saying that during the Great Depression, when millions of men lost their jobs and had to stand in line at the soup kitchen, that their families automatically ceased to be 'traditional families'?


So you're saying that every nonserious response I come up with is nonserious?

   5467. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 24, 2013 at 01:28 PM (#4424562)
I am just objecting to heaping insults or attributing negative things to Tamerlan (who again, is an awful person) without actual knowledge of them.

Why? He's dead and can't be defamed, and he's a terrorist puke who blew up the Boston Marathon (and likely corrupted his younger brother). Another few "negative" things would be a rounding error in the general ledger of his time on Earth.


Well, for me, I have no interest in defending him, and that's not my goal here. What I have a very strong interest in is stopping, or at least slowing down, our nation's slide toward a police state. I mean, who wouldn't want to deport a lazy, wife beating, radical Islamic terrorist? Unless you look closer and find out that none of those things were proved a priori, merely speculated, and spun by those who want to take this opportunity to deny more residents due process. By all mean, lets investigate anyone who warrants it, and lets deport anybody proven to be a potential threat. But this stuff like "Let's deport anybody who has ever been investigated, or been on welfare"? No.
   5468. Steve Treder Posted: April 24, 2013 at 01:28 PM (#4424563)
millions of men lost their jobs and had to stand in line at the soup kitchen

No, no, this is wrong: there was no welfare then. Everything was so much better!
   5469. Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band. Posted: April 24, 2013 at 01:29 PM (#4424564)
I do think that it is a prerequisite for being a good parent that you actually be around. (What a shocking concept!)

What about someone whose job has them going out of town for a week every few months or so? So - they're at their job for eleven months (instead of at home) and gone the other; no jobs requiring travel then?

To be clear, I'm a real stickler on the need to be around - I've refused opportunities that would pay more and be more interesting, on the grounds that I feel that I need to be present - having children, for me, means committing to them that I'll be there and active with them. But it is not the only way to be the best parent you can be - I'm lucky that I don't have to work 80 hours a week to put food on the table, as my dad did 'cause they needed him to; I have the luxury of being able to take the stance, not the only valid one, that I do.

***

As for Tamerlan, #### him sideways. There's no need to attribute false or unknown terrible things to him because there's no need to do that to anybody, not out of any concern for a dead #######. It doesn't give us anything, except perhaps the false joy of piling on. Why obscure truth?
   5470. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 24, 2013 at 01:30 PM (#4424567)
Because making up ######## just because he's dead doesn't implicate him, it implicates you.

So what? It doesn't "implicate" me in anything of any weight or moment, particularly compared to the things the terrorist has already "implicated" himself in.

Stop mandating that society behave with your preferred dosage of prissiness in the wake of these atrocities. It's arrogant and unbecoming.
   5471. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: April 24, 2013 at 01:36 PM (#4424572)
Why? He's dead and can't be defamed

So, open season on Maggie Thatcher then?
   5472. Lassus Posted: April 24, 2013 at 01:38 PM (#4424576)
The idea that the truth isn't bad enough and that eschewing speculation is a LIBERAL OMG LOL delineation is pretty weird.
   5473. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: April 24, 2013 at 01:39 PM (#4424577)
I do think that it is a prerequisite for being a good parent that you actually be around. (What a shocking concept!)

I look forward to the next time you have to address the Absentee Fathers' Union the MLBPA.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

millions of men lost their jobs and had to stand in line at the soup kitchen


No, no, this is wrong: there was no welfare then. Everything was so much better!

Whuddya mean there was no welfare? Do you know how many dimes John D. Rockefeller gave out on street corners and on ferries?

EDIT: And reading that story, I now know where Larry David got at least one of his ideas:

Since about 1930 Mr. Rockefeller had not been a frequent visitor in this section. Joe Mayo, an old boathand on the ferry line, has four of the famous dimes.
   5474. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 01:39 PM (#4424578)
So, open season on Maggie Thatcher then?


Arguing by Gotcha! is not actually persuasive.
   5475. The Good Face Posted: April 24, 2013 at 01:40 PM (#4424581)
No, the process should be;

Russia - This guy might be a terrorist. investigate him

FBI - *does cursory check* Unemployed loser with domestic violence arrest on his record? He'll be on a plane by next week.

Fin.

You'd apply this to Cuban refugees as well right? Chinese political dissidents?


Of course. Naturally if the person is high value (a defecting nuclear scientist for example), then you take that into account. Otherwise, assuming a cursory search turns up that they're unemployed and have an arrest record, give em the boot. There are hundreds of millions of people who'd love to take their place, and out of that population, it shouldn't be hard to find law-abiding people who're able to find work.
   5476. Steve Treder Posted: April 24, 2013 at 01:42 PM (#4424586)
Arguing by Gotcha! is not actually persuasive.

Good point. Neither, as it happens, is arguing by assuming things without knowledge.
   5477. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 24, 2013 at 01:42 PM (#4424588)
The idea that the truth isn't bad enough and that eschewing speculation is a LIBERAL OMG LOL delineation is pretty weird.

It isn't correct that society must act and think and speak with pure Cartesian rationality in the aftermath of atrocities like the Boston Marathon bombing. There's no source for the proposition, and it makes no sense.
   5478. The Good Face Posted: April 24, 2013 at 01:43 PM (#4424589)
One of my great grandfathers died with a shot gun slug in his belly, as a lawman.

One of my other great grandfathers was the bootlegger that put the slug in his gut.

Does only half of me get deported?


Ideally, but what would we do with the other 200lbs of you?
   5479. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 01:44 PM (#4424593)

So what? It doesn't "implicate" me in anything of any weight or moment, particularly compared to the things the terrorist has already "implicated" himself in.

Stop mandating that society behave with your preferred dosage of prissiness in the wake of these atrocities. It's arrogant and unbecoming.


I don't think it's a bad thing to do for any moral reasons, I just think it inhibits otherwise potentially beneficial discussions. If both 'sides' resort to hyperbole and non-truths then the argument just devolves into two ideological sides yelling past each other. That may be fun for a few hundred comments or so, but it just gets tiresome. And then ultimately nothing gets done (i.e. Congress), when clearly something should be.
   5480. Lassus Posted: April 24, 2013 at 01:52 PM (#4424604)
It isn't correct that society must act and think and speak with pure Cartesian rationality in the aftermath of atrocities like the Boston Marathon bombing. There's no source for the proposition, and it makes no sense.

Ah yes, hyperbole and hysteria. I forgot.

   5481. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 01:54 PM (#4424612)
I look forward to the next time you have to address the Absentee Fathers' Union the MLBPA.


Sorry, but I don't go up to people and "address" them unsolicited. I don't interfere with peoples' lives and tell them what's best for them, as liberals do. I'm participating in a discussion forum in an obscure corner of the internet with a bunch of baseball geeks, not appointing myself neighborhood watchman.
   5482. Steve Treder Posted: April 24, 2013 at 01:56 PM (#4424615)
I don't interfere with peoples' lives without cause and tell them what's best for them, as liberals do.

Way to early in the day to begin playing drinking games, Ray. Have mercy.
   5483. Lassus Posted: April 24, 2013 at 01:58 PM (#4424625)
Way to early in the day to begin playing drinking games, Ray. Have mercy

Not on the East coast, hippie!
   5484. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:03 PM (#4424630)
Sorry, but I don't go up to people and "address" them unsolicited. I don't interfere with peoples' lives and tell them what's best for them, as liberals do. I'm participating in a discussion forum in an obscure corner of the internet with a bunch of baseball geeks, not appointing myself neighborhood watchman.

I'm sorry, you don't understand. It's "unfair" and "piling on" to criticize a terrorist for being an absentee father unless you also "address" and nag every single solitary other father who isn't around every day.
   5485. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:05 PM (#4424632)
I don't interfere with peoples' lives and tell them what's best for them

No, you just kick them out of the country or have them executed.
   5486. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:09 PM (#4424638)
Wait. When my ex got pregnant, she was earning more than me and we discussed my becoming a stay-at-home dad (beyond financial issues - I'd played a significant role in raising a younger brother, albeit for a short period of time, and had spent hundreds of hours babysitting - her experience with kids was largely confined to being 'the cool aunt').
Lack of welfare acceptance aside, would you have had a 'problem' with that?

***

Also, I think you've said that you've accepted unemployment benefits before - am I mistaken (could have been just benefits from your former employers)? If so, is that a case where that program is okay but others aren't?


I have no problem with it, I just wouldn't describe that as a "traditional family". My wife and I both work, and we haven't been able to have kids as of yet. Nothing wrong with that either, but I wouldn't describe us as a "traditional family".

I have nothing against people taking UE benefits. You pay into the system through taxes (either directly or through your employer), and can claim the benefits without any compunction.

They are limited term benefits to help people get back on their feet. I'm not opposed to that kind of gov't aid, I'm opposed to the perpetual dole.
   5487. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:10 PM (#4424641)
So you're saying that during the Great Depression, when millions of men lost their jobs and had to stand in line at the soup kitchen, that their families automatically ceased to be 'traditional families'?

No, that's a temporary dislocation, through no fault of their own.
   5488. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:11 PM (#4424642)
No, you just kick them out of the country or have them executed.

He shouldn't have been in the country. Big screwup by the homeland security bureaucracy.(*) Cost a lot of lives and limbs.

(*) Which we put in place, at the cost of a lot of money and some freedoms, to confront sitations exactly like this -- immigrant from a terrorist hotbed, drifting along, collecting welfare, violent toward his woman, six month trip to terrorist hotbed, warnings by government aligned with ours in struggle against terrorism. WTF were they doing?
   5489. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:12 PM (#4424645)
I have nothing against people taking UE benefits. You pay into the system through taxes (either directly or through your employer), and can claim the benefits without any compunction.

They are limited term benefits to help people get back on their feet. I'm not opposed to that kind of gov't aid, I'm opposed to the perpetual dole.


Well then you shouldn't be opposed to the Tsarnaev's, seeing as they got off of welfare in 2012.
   5490. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:14 PM (#4424650)
Cost a lot of lives and limbs.


But let's not mention that. Then people won't have as much sympathy for the plight of the wife-beating terrorist as we do.
   5491. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:19 PM (#4424656)
(*) Which we put in place, at the cost of a lot of money and some freedoms, to confront sitations exactly like this -- immigrant from a terrorist hotbed, drifting along, collecting welfare, violent toward his woman, six month trip to terrorist hotbed, warnings by government aligned with ours in struggle against terrorism.


That's not nearly enough evidence. We have to wait until people are killed and dozens of people lose limbs in order to take action. Otherwise, WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO, deport every wife-beating American-hating terrorist-sympathizing unemployed traveling immigrant in our midst??!?!?!?
   5492. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:19 PM (#4424658)
snapper, if your views in real life are anything like you post here, and are in anyway representative of the Catholic Church, then I am embarrassed to have once been a Catholic. You are just about the most immoral, uncaring, selfish person I have ever had the displeasure to meet.

Seeing as how I've never met you, I don't give your judgement any credence.

Not that you should believe me, but I've never intentionally hurt a single person in my life, and am quite charitable (my accountant even commented on it this year as to why I don't have to pay estimated tax).

I care a lot about people who try to do the right thing and try their best to live good lives. I don't care about people that commit evil, unless and until they try to mend their ways.

If you beat up your wife, refuse to work, and let the taxpayer support your child, yeah, I don't care about you. What an ogre I am.
   5493. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:21 PM (#4424661)
Well then you shouldn't be opposed to the Tsarnaev's, seeing as they got off of welfare in 2012.

Did he get a job, or did they just run out of benefits?
   5494. Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band. Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:23 PM (#4424664)
5486/snapper: I think that's reasonable, but it makes me call into question the value of the word 'traditional'. Isn't efficacy more important than tradition? (Not saying that the 'traditional' model doesn't work, but it's not the only one.)
5493: I thought the wife worked heavy hours...
   5495. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:24 PM (#4424665)
That's not nearly enough evidence. We have to wait until dozens of people lose limbs in order to take action. Otherwise, WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO, deport every wife-beating American-hating terrorist-sympathizing traveling immigrant in our midst??!?!?!?


Once again, I am astounded at the amount of power all these right wing, keep the government out of my ####, people want to all of a sudden cede to the government. By all means, lets re-instate the Alien and Sedition Acts while we're at it.

Let me ask you a question. If the government gets all this new power you want to give them, do you think they're going to limit using it to unemployed, wife beating, Islamic terrorists? Because I sure don't.
   5496. The Good Face Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:24 PM (#4424666)
But let's not mention that. Then people won't have as much sympathy for the plight of the wife-beating terrorist as we do.


Don't be unfair Ray, they don't REALLY have sympathy for the wife-beating terrorist. All this nonsense is in response to a bigger and more important issue; immigration. Immigration is how the Democratic party thinks they're going to achieve a permanent majority, and nothing, nothing is more important than that. Unfettered political power. That's why our little amateur spin doctors are engaging in this ludicrous display.

The bombing Borat brothers were both immigrants and a fine example of how broken our current system is. Any attempt to point out either of those two facts must be obfuscated or attacked by loyal protectors of the Cathedral.
   5497. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:27 PM (#4424669)
The bombing Borat brothers


I actually like that. Nice.
   5498. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:28 PM (#4424671)
5486/snapper: I think that's reasonable, but it makes me call into question the value of the word 'traditional'. Isn't efficacy more important than tradition? (Not saying that the 'traditional' model doesn't work, but it's not the only one.)

Yes. I wasn't advocating the traditional family as the best or only valid alternative.

I was just reacting to a claim by Sam that my denigrating Tsarnayev for not working meant I was not a "supporter of the traditional family".

5493: I thought the wife worked heavy hours...

So Tamerlane didn't do anything to improve his family's circumstances. Consider me shocked.

Another good question is what a presumably normal American girl say in this creep to stay with him so long.
   5499. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:29 PM (#4424672)
The bombing Borat brothers were both immigrants and a fine example of how broken our current system is.


Would you have had the younger one deported?
   5500. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:30 PM (#4424675)
.
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