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Sunday, March 31, 2013

OTP: April 2013: Daily Caller: Baseball and the GOP: To rebrand the party, think like a sports fan

This week’s GOP autopsy report, commissioned by RNC Chairman Reince Priebus, is a great start in the much-needed task of rebranding the Republican Party. As the chairman acknowledged, “the way we communicate our principles isn’t resonating widely enough” and “we have to be more inclusive.” The report contains 219 recommendations to “connect people to our principles.” To achieve that goal, the party will need a strategic vision of how voters think about politics, which is something that the report lacks. For that, the GOP can learn a lot from another American passion: baseball.

This year, about 75 million Americans will go to the baseball stadium to watch a ballgame, about the same number as those who will vote in next year’s election. We rarely think about why someone becomes a baseball fan, or why they root for a certain team. Nor do we usually think about why someone chooses to vote for a certain political party. But it’s actually a very useful exercise.

When it comes to baseball, fan loyalty has almost nothing to do with the brain, and almost everything to do with the heart. In all of history, there’s never been a baseball fan who rooted for his team because it had the lowest ticket prices, or because it had the most taxpayer-friendly stadium deal, or because its players did the most community service. For the vast majority of Americans, rooting for a baseball team — not to mention, voting for a political party — isn’t really a rational choice; it’s more of a statement of personal identity — a statement telling the world, “This is who I am.” And for most people, defining “who I am” starts with family and community, before branching out into areas like race, age, gender, and class.

Family is pretty straightforward. If your mom and dad are Yankee fans, you’re almost certainly a Yankee fan. The same is true in politics. If your mom and dad are Republicans, you’re almost certainly a Republican.

Community is also pretty straightforward. If you grew up in, say, Philadelphia, chances are pretty great you’re a Phillies fan. Likewise, someone who grew up in Republican territory like, say, suburban Dallas or rural Indiana is much more likely to become a Republican than a nearly identical person from Seattle or Santa Fe.

Cities with more than one baseball team, like New York or Chicago, show revealing breakdowns by race and gender. The racial split in Chicago between Cubs fans on the North Side and White Sox fans on the South Side is well-documented. In New York, there’s an intriguing gender gap between Mets and Yankee fans, with women gravitating a lot more to the Yanks. While there’s a few theories out there trying to explain that, one obvious answer leaps out: Yankees heartthrob Derek Jeter.

In sports, as in politics, people’s convictions can’t be conveniently reduced to who their parents are or what they look like. But those things are an important foundation, upon which more rational sentiments come into being. Once you’re attached to your team on an emotional level — seeing them as a personal reflection of who you are and what you care about most — a rational exterior comes into being through phrases like “the Red Sox are the best team because they have the most heart” or “the Republicans are the best party because they know how to create jobs.”

Tripon Posted: March 31, 2013 at 10:52 AM | 6544 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

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   5501. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:30 PM (#4424676)
Don't be unfair Ray, they don't REALLY have sympathy for the wife-beating terrorist. All this nonsense is in response to a bigger and more important issue; immigration. Immigration is how the Democratic party thinks they're going to achieve a permanent majority, and nothing, nothing is more important than that. Unfettered political power. That's why our little amateur spin doctors are engaging in this ludicrous display.

Unfortunately, there's way too much truth in this statement.
   5502. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:31 PM (#4424679)
5496/TGF: For what it's worth, I'm not opposed to more deportations, to looking at a different immigration model with a greater focus on skills as opposed to familial bonds. However, comments like some of those made by conservatives here and elsewhere come across as the mirror image of what you're describing - using these tragedies as an excuse to mold immigration policy into one that meets your demographic needs - to build an angrier, more insular society.
   5503. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:31 PM (#4424680)
In your world a justice system that despite many years of searching and appearances on America's Most Wanted. Despite being clearly guilty of crimes that I am pretty sure have no statue of limitations, those criminals should just be let go because locking them up will have no deterence.

You are trying to claim with a straight face that justice systems that semi-randomly decide to let criminals walk are just as effective a deterrent as those that are consistent. In one system there is a 50% of being imprisoned if coinvicted in another there is a 100% chance. And according to you no one will notice, there is no deterrent in imprisoning the other 50%.

Really? How does deterrence work in the Joe K justice system when you randomly decide to let captured criminals go without punishment, because hey they are old woman and it has been a long time? Since you are letting criminals go, Joe, then I guess your justice system will need more prisons, because criminals will notice and commit more crimes.

What a clever plan you have to support more prisons, incent crime.

Joe Translation: Joe still not understand deterrence. -- Bitter Mouse

The purpose of a criminal justice system is to punish and/or rehabilitate offenders, not to deter hypothetical future criminals from committing crimes. If punishment for punishment's sake is bad and if an offender is already rehabilitated (as you've claimed generally and re: Olson/Soriah), then it's unjust to imprison that person for the purpose of deterring other people from committing crimes.

Further, in a country of 300-plus million people that solves less than 20 percent of all crimes and already has millions of people in jails and prisons, I'd love for you to try to quantify the deterrent effect of locking up some individual criminal some 30 years after her crimes were committed and who is claimed to no longer be a danger to society.

Your whole position here is shoddy. You keep trying to stake out a moral high ground by saying that punishment for punishment's sake is bad, but then you say that punishment must always occur for purposes of deterrence, lest society lose confidence in the criminal justice system. You're trying to have it both ways here. You pay lip service to punishment being bad, but then demand punishment occur anyway -- even for people who pose no threat and are fully rehabilitated -- for unquantifiable and even unjust purposes of deterrence. Do you not see that in your scheme, "punishment" and "deterrence" have become intertwined to the point of functioning as synonyms?
   5504. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:33 PM (#4424682)
5496/TGF: For what it's worth, I'm not opposed to more deportations, to looking at a different immigration model with a greater focus on skills as opposed to familial bonds. However, comments like some of those made by conservatives here and elsewhere come across as the mirror image of what you're describing - using these tragedies as an excuse to mold immigration policy into one that meets your demographic needs - to build an angrier, more insular society.

No just skills, but acceptance of American values.

Nothing will do more to create an angrier more insular society than allowing non-productive, anti-American immigrants.
   5505. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:33 PM (#4424683)
Immigration is how the Democratic party thinks they're going to achieve a permanent majority, and nothing, nothing is more important than that. Unfettered political power. That's why our little amateur spin doctors are engaging in this ludicrous display.

That, and perpetually awful, undemanding, juvenilizing education. Keeping the people stupid and in a state of arrested development is the surest way to modern liberal success. They're still having trouble winning the loyalties of stupid white people, thus the push for unfettered immigration.
   5506. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:33 PM (#4424684)
So Tamerlane didn't do anything to improve his family's circumstances. Consider me shocked.

Yeah, nobody's defending that piece of ####.
Another good question is what a presumably normal American girl say in this creep to stay with him so long.

Don't think that particular kind of issue is specific to this couple, sadly.
   5507. Howling John Shade Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:33 PM (#4424685)
If this is all performance art to mock liberals for how they reacted to Newton, then bravo I say. Otherwise, hand in your libertarian cards at the next government checkpoint please.

I've done lots of work in the area of digital civil liberties (4th amendment online, ECPA, etc). The cases that make it high in the courts in these areas are often child pornography cases (when the government searches someones email without a warrant and doesn't find anything, no one gets arrested, no evidence is entered, so no 4th amendment case). The rules we all live under are often defined by their application to the worst among us.

I certainly wish that this guy had been deported. Jumping from that to setting a precedent that a refugee should be deported based on an investigation that found nothing and a charge that resulted in no conviction is the sort of cringing thinking that got us the patriot act and is exactly the sort of thing you were mocking with regards to gun control and Newton.
   5508. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:35 PM (#4424687)
Don't think that particular kind of issue is specific to this couple, sadly.

No, it's not. I've seen my sisters date a series of pathetic losers. One unfortunately married (and divorced) one of them, and now he fails to regularly support or even visit his two sons. The second, thankfully, has married a decent guy.
   5509. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:35 PM (#4424689)
Keeping the people stupid and in a state of arrested development is the surest way to modern liberal success.

I thought that the left was at fault for trying to expand access to education?
   5510. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:38 PM (#4424694)
I certainly wish that this guy had been deported. Jumping from that to setting a precedent that a refugee should be deported based on an investigation that found nothing and a charge that resulted in no conviction is the sort of cringing thinking that got us the patriot act and is exactly the sort of thing you were mocking with regards to gun control and Newton.

No one (to my knowledge) is saying they needed to have deported him at that point, just that they should have monitored him, and would have found sufficient reason (linking to jihadist videos), a long trip to Dagestan (leaving his family behind) to deport him before he killed people.
   5511. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:41 PM (#4424699)
5352. Bitter Mouse loves the small sample size fluke Posted: April 24, 2013 at 08:40 AM (#4424212)

So I have been thinking about the point made earlier that it is important to (essentially) have a justice system harsh enough that keeps people happy, otherwise they will invent their own shadow justice system (I think that was the basics, if not please correct me).

There are a couple things here. First of all while there is a possible theoretical link between a "too lenient" justice system and vigilanteism I think it far more applicable to a corrupt or unfair justice system (Like Joe's where the guilty are never imprisoned, because heck on 20% of criminals are caught anyway)

Are you a liar in real life or only on the internet?

I've consistently called for more prisons, tougher sentences for violent criminals, and an expanded use of the death penalty. Why you keep saying things like the bolded part is a mystery.
   5512. The Good Face Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:41 PM (#4424700)
Would you have had the younger one deported?


Well, *I* wouldn't have let any of them into the country in the first place. Chechnya has a tiny population. Europe is comparatively big and could easily absorb any legit asylum seekers; why did we get involved in the first place?

That said, I don't know enough about the young one to say. If he was a student with a clean record, probably not.
   5513. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:41 PM (#4424701)

Don't be unfair Ray, they don't REALLY have sympathy for the wife-beating terrorist. All this nonsense is in response to a bigger and more important issue; immigration. Immigration is how the Democratic party thinks they're going to achieve a permanent majority, and nothing, nothing is more important than that. Unfettered political power. That's why our little amateur spin doctors are engaging in this ludicrous display.


Yes, the bombers being immigrants with red flags going up on the older one threw a huge monkey wrench into their plans.

Oh, imagine how our liberal friends would have been partying like it was 1999 had it been a right wing militia type or - as David Alexrod had publicly hoped - for a right winger upset about Tax Day.
   5514. Howling John Shade Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:43 PM (#4424710)
No one (to my knowledge) is saying they needed to have deported him at that point, just that they should have monitored him, and would have found sufficient reason (linking to jihadist videos), a long trip to Dagestan (leaving his family behind) to deport him before he killed people.

Ok, if the main point is that the investigation of him was insufficient, I have no complaints. I read Ray and GF, etc to be saying we had enough to revoke asylum based solely on welfare, Russian tip and dropped DV charge.
   5515. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:45 PM (#4424712)
Would you have had the younger one deported?


After he became a citizen? No.

Before that? Still no.
   5516. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:48 PM (#4424716)
Ok, if the main point is that the investigation of him was insufficient, I have no complaints. I read Ray and GF, etc to be saying we had enough to revoke asylum based solely on welfare, Russian tip and dropped DV charge.

I can only speak for myself, but I think that's not quite enough. If the girlfriend had pressed charges, maybe. But add in the links to jihadist materials, and the unexplained 6 months in Dagestan (normal unemployed fathers don't spend the money to travel abroad, and that much time away from their wives and children), I boot his ask back to Kyrgyzstan.

   5517. The Good Face Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:49 PM (#4424717)
For what it's worth, I'm not opposed to more deportations, to looking at a different immigration model with a greater focus on skills as opposed to familial bonds. However, comments like some of those made by conservatives here and elsewhere come across as the mirror image of what you're describing - using these tragedies as an excuse to mold immigration policy into one that meets your demographic needs - to build an angrier, more insular society.


And yet, in TGF's society, this bombing never occurs because the angry, insular foreigner who perpetrated it would have never entered the country. Granted nobody can see all ends, and it's possible that I would wind up creating an even darker timeline by not letting those guys into the country. But I'll take my chances.

No just skills, but acceptance of American values.

Nothing will do more to create an angrier more insular society than allowing non-productive, anti-American immigrants.


Correct. Not only do you run risks from such immigrants themselves, but you also risk radicalizing otherwise-peaceful American citizens.
   5518. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:50 PM (#4424719)
After he became a citizen? No.

Agreed, but why shouldn't his wait for citizenship have been longer? I'd like to see at least five year work history, after you finish you education, and a clean record as an adult before I make an irrevocable grant of citizenship.
   5519. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:50 PM (#4424721)
Oh, imagine how our liberal friends would have been partying like it was 1999 had it been a right wing militia type or - as David Alexrod had publicly hoped - for a right winger upset about Tax Day.

And instead they got their worst nightmare -- alienated immigrants radicalized and turned violent by militant Islam, but white. So, now, when a bunch of people are ripping on the white guys as much as they'd rip on the "brown" guys, they can't scream "racist" (*) and are left with nothing to say other than bemoaning the "piling on" and "negativity."

(*) And their claims of "racism" are left to look as foolish as they've always been.
   5520. Group Captain Mandrake Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:50 PM (#4424722)
Ok, if the main point is that the investigation of him was insufficient, I have no complaints. I read Ray and GF, etc to be saying we had enough to revoke asylum based solely on welfare, Russian tip and dropped DV charge.


The latter is most certainly their position. If their position was simply the former, I probably would have never said a thing.
   5521. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:51 PM (#4424724)
Stats like this are misleading (and I know you and I have had this conversation before). I don't remember the numbers but a large portion of the "immigrant households" on welfare are actually households of immigrant (and American) adults plus American children, and they qualify for welfare because of the latter.

It's not misleading at all. If immigrants can't afford the children they're having, we shouldn't be admitting them into the country in the first place.
   5522. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:52 PM (#4424725)
The latter is most certainly their position.

Why don't you let them speak for themselves?
   5523. Group Captain Mandrake Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:56 PM (#4424731)
And yet, in TGF's society, this bombing never occurs because the angry, insular foreigner who perpetrated it would have never entered the country. Granted nobody can see all ends, and it's possible that I would wind up creating an even darker timeline by not letting those guys into the country. But I'll take my chances.


I highly doubt that before this incident you were opposed to allowing Chechens to immigrate. There is a developing story that the older one might have been highly influenced by an Armenian who converted to Islam. Were you calling for an end to Armenian immigration last month also? What if the next major crime committed by an immigrant is by a white South African, or a Sikh. Are you then going to claim you would have stopped them as well?
   5524. Lassus Posted: April 24, 2013 at 02:59 PM (#4424734)
And yet, in TGF's society, this bombing never occurs because the angry, insular foreigner who perpetrated it would have never entered the country.

He got here when he was 15 (the younger one 9), and apparently wasn't angry until about 20 (the younger one around last year), so there's a bit of a hole in your society's plan, judgment-wise.

Unless it's just no foreigners or young people who aren't working full time, that's somewhat consistent at least.
   5525. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 03:03 PM (#4424738)
After he became a citizen? No.

Agreed, but why shouldn't his wait for citizenship have been longer?


Oh, I fully agree with that point. He wouldn't have been a citizen in the first place last year if I had anything to say about it. I'd have made him wait longer at a minimum, and frankly with the crazy older brother running around that wait may have been very long. No need to rush.

I wonder whether the older brother had applied for citizenship, and how far he got with that.
   5526. Lassus Posted: April 24, 2013 at 03:07 PM (#4424743)
I wonder whether the older brother had applied for citizenship, and how far he got with that.
Tamerlan Tsarnaev was born in the Russian SFSR, in the Soviet Union, and was a Russian citizen.[31] He also became a permanent resident of the U.S.[26] At some point he applied for U.S. citizenship, but Homeland Security held up its being granted to him because of a record of a 2011 FBI interview of him.[69]
   5527. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 24, 2013 at 03:12 PM (#4424747)
5406. Misirlou is calling you DUDE! Posted: April 24, 2013 at 11:40 AM (#4424403)

Boy, not a good couple of days for the right wing, supposed limited government folks.

[...]

You have Rand Paul who wants to have a domestic drone program over our major cities and instill the death penalty for petty theft

This is the second time you've said this today. Do you really believe robbing a liquor store at gunpoint or knifepoint, which was the clear implication of Rand Paul's off-the-cuff example, constitutes "petty theft"?

***
Did he get a job, or did they just run out of benefits?

Apparently, neither. The wife reportedly started working 80 hours per week as a health aide, the income from which put Tamerlan the Terrorist over the household-income limit for receiving welfare.
   5528. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 03:14 PM (#4424753)
No just skills, but acceptance of American values.

Nothing will do more to create an angrier more insular society than allowing non-productive, anti-American immigrants.




Correct. Not only do you run risks from such immigrants themselves, but you also risk radicalizing otherwise-peaceful American citizens.


What exactly are 'American values'? Also, I sort of doubt there are any anti-American immigrants coming to the US legally and trying to gain citizenship. Obviously they may BECOME anti-American, but I think it's safe to say no one chooses to emigrate to a country they hate.
   5529. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: April 24, 2013 at 03:21 PM (#4424771)
EDIT: NM.
   5530. The Good Face Posted: April 24, 2013 at 03:21 PM (#4424772)
I highly doubt that before this incident you were opposed to allowing Chechens to immigrate.


And you're wrong.

There is a developing story that the older one might have been highly influenced by an Armenian who converted to Islam. Were you calling for an end to Armenian immigration last month also? What if the next major crime committed by an immigrant is by a white South African, or a Sikh. Are you then going to claim you would have stopped them as well?


I never claimed my personal policy would stop all terrorist attacks, only that it would have stopped THIS one.

I'd support an immigration policy similar to the New Zealand model. You focus on people who already have adequate English language skills and can either buy their way into the country, or prove that they're a skilled worker whose skills are in demand at that time. Maybe Armenian guy slides through under that policy; there are no perfect solutions. But some are better than others.
   5531. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 03:29 PM (#4424787)
Let me ask you a question. If the government gets all this new power you want to give them, do you think they're going to limit using it to unemployed, wife beating, Islamic terrorists?


Lord I hope not. No shortage of worthless wogs swarming into this country with their hateful and foolish ideologies - pagan Hindis, the Papists dregs of central and south America, ululating Islamist savages, scheming Celestials selling offal, the list stretches longer than the line at Denny's when they offer a free breakfast once a year. A truly effective approach would be to apply such cleansings retroactively; when Papist Paddy Buchanan warned of the dire threat posed by allowing "Zulus" to immigrate en masse, it was only because he felt secure that his own repugnant Irish blood was safely secure in America long before he demanded the ladder be pulled up for similar undesirables. It would be nice to forcefully remind him of his error.
   5532. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: April 24, 2013 at 03:31 PM (#4424793)
time to learn danish.
   5533. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 03:36 PM (#4424800)
Apparently the Czech Republic is donating roughly $200,000 to West, Texas because there are a high number of people with Czech roots in the town. But you know, #### immigration.
   5534. Lassus Posted: April 24, 2013 at 03:37 PM (#4424805)
And you're wrong.

Seriously, what the hell good have they ever done us since Dvorak?
   5535. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: April 24, 2013 at 03:37 PM (#4424808)
nah, they're some of the good ones. wait - did you say CZECH!
   5536. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 24, 2013 at 03:40 PM (#4424818)
Yeah, nobody's defending that piece of ####.
It bothers me that this apparently needs repeating.
   5537. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 03:46 PM (#4424840)
Yeah, nobody's defending that piece of ####.

It bothers me that this apparently needs repeating.


Well, they're not saying "You go, wife-beating terrorist!" But they're certainly putting up stop signs and engaging in rank silliness in response to valid criticisms of him.
   5538. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 03:50 PM (#4424849)
My favorite was the argument that he was a typical all-American stay-at-home dad.
   5539. The Good Face Posted: April 24, 2013 at 03:53 PM (#4424856)
My favorite was the argument that he was a typical all-American stay-at-home dad.


That was a howler. Especially after the "Men must work and slave to support their children no matter what!" thread.
   5540. Steve Treder Posted: April 24, 2013 at 03:53 PM (#4424858)
they're certainly putting up stop signs and engaging in rank silliness in response to valid criticisms of him.

If by "valid criticsms" you mean "suppositions and assertions without the support of knowledge," then I agree.
   5541. Group Captain Mandrake Posted: April 24, 2013 at 03:55 PM (#4424861)
But they're certainly putting up stop signs and engaging in rank silliness in response to valid criticisms of him.


It's all valid criticism. What it is not is valid grounds for deporting him (or not letting him into the country in the first place) prior to last Monday. And I certainly don't want it to be a precedent for the future. And frankly, neither do you, unless this Libertarian claptrap you've been peddling for the last 10 years is nothing but a fake internet personality.

Go ahead, as Zim, the only true Libertarian on this site, if he wants the government to have that much unfettered, arbitrary power.
   5542. Lassus Posted: April 24, 2013 at 03:55 PM (#4424862)
My favorite was the argument that he was a typical all-American stay-at-home dad.
That was a howler. Especially after the "Men must work and slave to support their children no matter what!" thread.


This high-fiving and circle-jerking has to stop for the good of America.
   5543. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 03:56 PM (#4424868)
No, actually - and I know this is a bizarre concept for liberals to contemplate - by "valid criticisms" I meant... wait for it... valid criticisms.

   5544. Group Captain Mandrake Posted: April 24, 2013 at 03:57 PM (#4424870)
Especially after the "Men must work and slave to support their children no matter what!" thread.


That's a new tactic. Take a ridiculous position taken by someone on your side, and use that as a mocking point to attack someone opposed to that position.
   5545. Steve Treder Posted: April 24, 2013 at 04:00 PM (#4424883)
this is a bizarre concept for liberals to contemplate

DING!
   5546. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 24, 2013 at 04:01 PM (#4424886)
Well, they're not saying "You go, wife-beating terrorist!" But they're certainly putting up stop signs and engaging in rank silliness in response to valid criticisms of him.
You're a self-proclaimed libertarian. I would have thought you'd be in favor of stop signs.

The Boston bombing and the radicalization of the bombers has stirred up some chatter in my family circles. My dad and uncles talked about getting tossed in jail for being drunk, or the frustrations of not being able to get a job because they were overqualified or their accents were heavy or whatever. Assimilation is hard, and teenage minds are easily bent. While all of those guys (even the one idiot guy) have managed to work their way to a comfortable middle-class lifestyle, to a man all of them said they could understand how someone younger and more frustrated than them would turn down a bad road.

As an aside, my dad was once in jail for a few days because another restaurant worker thought it'd be fun to pick on the Chinese busboy and found out he used to teach hand-to-hand combat in the Taiwanese Army. He was on a government scholarship to U of Missouri, AND a few years later was on food stamps. It's amazing none of us out to be terrorists.
   5547. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 04:06 PM (#4424899)
As an aside, my dad was once in jail for a few days because another restaurant worker thought it'd be fun to pick on the Chinese busboy and found out he used to teach hand-to-hand combat in the Taiwanese Army. He was on a government scholarship to U of Missouri, AND a few years later was on food stamps. It's amazing none of us out to be terrorists.


No kidding, as good as you people are at assembling sophisticated electronics you'd be able to come up with something way more sophisticated and effective than a pressure cooker filled with gunpowder.
   5548. Steve Treder Posted: April 24, 2013 at 04:09 PM (#4424905)
No kidding, as good as you people are at assembling sophisticated electronics you'd be able to come up with something way more sophisticated and effective than a pressure cooker filled with gunpowder.

A step ladder that performs awesome Kung Fu moves would be pretty cool ...
   5549. The Good Face Posted: April 24, 2013 at 04:10 PM (#4424909)
Go ahead, as Zim, the only true Libertarian on this site, if he wants the government to have that much unfettered, arbitrary power.


The government already has the power to do what we're discussing here. Investigate criminals? Deport foreign nationals? None of this is new and scary. In fact, under my system, the government would have less power, because we wouldn't need as many government drones to handle administration.
   5550. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: April 24, 2013 at 04:10 PM (#4424910)
Yeah, nobody's defending that piece of ####.


It bothers me that this apparently needs repeating.


Well, they're not saying "You go, wife-beating terrorist!" But they're certainly putting up stop signs and engaging in rank silliness in response to valid criticisms of him.

Ray, we all wish that the FBI had taken the complaints about the older brother more seriously. Some of us wish that the FBI would take complaints about all kinds of unbalanced individuals more seriously, whether they were born in Chechnya or Colorado; or whether they're hate-filled Islamists, hate-filled Christians, or hate-filled atheists. But when people keep trying to use one act of horror by two deranged individuals to bring in every other bee in their bonnet from welfare to immigration, none of which are subject to simplistic answers, then that's where they start losing everyone but the Tea Party types.

Two deranged Islamist Chechnyan immigrants perform an unspeakable atrocity in Boston. A deranged African American man shoots up the LIRR. A white religious fanatic murders an abortion doctor. A white religious hustler spellbinds an entire congregation into committing mass suicide. A deranged white ex-serviceman blows up a building in Oklahoma City. A deranged white 20 year old massacres dozens of children in a schoolyard. Why is the ethnic or religious background only considered important in the first of these cases?
   5551. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 24, 2013 at 04:10 PM (#4424913)
A step ladder that performs awesome Kung Fu moves would be pretty cool ...
We made one, but the audio functions wouldn't sync up.
   5552. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 24, 2013 at 04:11 PM (#4424916)

Oops ...

Obama Deportation Progam Likely to Be Blocked, Judge Says

A court challenge by federal immigration agents seeking to block President Barack Obama’s deferred-deportation initiative will probably succeed, a judge said.

[...]

Announced by Obama and Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano last year, the directive gives agents the ability to defer action on people unlawfully in the U.S. if they came to the country under the age of 16, are in school or have obtained a high school diploma, haven’t been convicted of a felony, significant misdemeanor or multiple misdemeanors, and aren’t a threat to public safety or national security.

“The court finds that DHS does not have discretion to refuse to initiate removal proceedings” when the requirements for deportation under a federal statute are met, O’Connor said today in a 38-page decision, referring to the Department of Homeland Security.

Thus far, the Obama administration has approved 99.5 percent of the applications it has received under DACA, so it appears the background checks are less than comprehensive. It seems unlikely the government performed full background checks on over 250,000 people in six-plus months.
   5553. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 24, 2013 at 04:13 PM (#4424918)
It's amazing none of us out to be terrorists.

Not really, if you didn't have militant Islam as a natural home to turn to in your alienation, and the internet to enable you to marinate in it. Prior to the 1960s (or even later), these guys would probably not have become terrorists either.
   5554. Steve Treder Posted: April 24, 2013 at 04:15 PM (#4424926)
We made one, but the audio functions wouldn't sync up.

Actually that might be a feature, not a bug. Ridiculous sound effects could be advisable, too.
   5555. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 24, 2013 at 04:19 PM (#4424932)
Why is the ethnic or religious background only considered important in the first of these cases?

Because it's the only one calling for direct political action of the type the Borats engaged in. It's a well-organized, well-publicized enterprise that hasn't been remotely secret about its aims.

There's a strain of Islam that has expressly called for this type of violent action against Americans. There is no remote equivalent in any of the other things you listed.

Why you insist on these mental gymnastics and cartwheels, all in the service of self-delusion, will always remain a complete mystery. Andrew Sullivan has a nice catalogue of them running on his website -- perhaps the "funniest" is the call for Borat the Elder to get tested for CTE since, after all, he boxed a few times.
   5556. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: April 24, 2013 at 04:26 PM (#4424938)
Why is the ethnic or religious background only considered important in the first of these cases?

Because it's the only one calling for direct political action of the type the Borats engaged in. It's a well-organized, well-publicized enterprise that hasn't been remotely secret about its aims.


That's all fine and good, but then why wasn't the ethnic or religious background of those other mass murderers considered relevant? It's not as if there aren't plenty of "strains" of other religions (or secular philosophies) that have exhibited themselves in acts of mass murder. Why aren't you calling for similar indiscriminate crackdowns against them?

   5557. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 24, 2013 at 04:29 PM (#4424944)
That's all fine and good, but then why wasn't the ethnic or religious background of those other mass murderers considered relevant? It's not as if there aren't plenty of "strains" of other religions (or secular philosophies) that have exhibited themselves in acts of mass murder. Why aren't you calling for similar indiscriminate crackdowns against them?

Funny stuff, Andy.
   5558. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 04:30 PM (#4424945)
But when people keep trying to use one act of horror by two deranged individuals to bring in every other bee in their bonnet from welfare to immigration,


No serious person could argue that the fact that he was unemployed and a wife-beating immigrant who we were too stupid to keep on our radar after being warned about isn't relevant to the question of why he was allowed to roam free in this country, including before and after he visited a terrorist hotbed to boot.
   5559. Group Captain Mandrake Posted: April 24, 2013 at 04:31 PM (#4424948)
This is the second time you've said this today. Do you really believe robbing a liquor store at gunpoint or knifepoint, which was the clear implication of Rand Paul's off-the-cuff example, constitutes "petty theft"?


hey, that's how things are done around here.

perhaps the "funniest" is the call for Borat the Elder to get tested for CTE since, after all, he boxed a few times.


He was training for the Olympic boxing team. He boxed many orders of magnitude more than a few times.

My favorite was the argument that he was a typical all-American stay-at-home dad.


I never said anything close to that. I took exception to the notion that someone who takes care of a kid at home is lazy and unemployed

But let's not mention that. Then people won't have as much sympathy for the plight of the wife-beating terrorist as we do.


No one has expressed anything close to sympathy

And that's just from the last 50 posts or so. I'm not going to unilaterally disarm.
   5560. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 04:35 PM (#4424958)
I took exception to the notion that someone who takes care of a kid at home is lazy and unemployed

Yeah, no one ever said that.

I remain confident that a man who has a fundamentalist Muslim, jihadist view of the world is not going to play Mr. Mom.

If he was the one watching the kids, what did they do with them when he took his 6 month vacation to Dagestan?

I've never know a stay at home parent to take a solo 6 month vacation.

   5561. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 24, 2013 at 04:35 PM (#4424959)
It's not as if there aren't plenty of "strains" of other religions (or secular philosophies) that have exhibited themselves in acts of mass murder. Why aren't you calling for similar indiscriminate crackdowns against them?

Because there aren't. There's no "strain" of Christianity or atheism affirmatively calling for acts of terroristic killing in the service of Christianity or atheism (or in the service of anything else, for that matter), and regularly committing acts of terroristic killing in pursuit of that calling.

Nor am I calling for an "indiscriminate crackdown" against anything. I said an immigrant should have been deported, and he should have been. You're imagining things that aren't there in pursuit of equivalences that aren't there.
   5562. Howling John Shade Posted: April 24, 2013 at 04:38 PM (#4424965)

No serious person could argue that the fact that he was unemployed and a wife-beating immigrant who we were too stupid to keep on our radar after being warned about isn't relevant to the question of why he was allowed to roam free in this country, including before and after he visited a terrorist hotbed to boot.

I'll be sure to note your approval of the phrase "Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens, perjurers" for future reference.
   5563. Monty Posted: April 24, 2013 at 04:48 PM (#4424977)
I've never know a stay at home parent to take a solo 6 month vacation.


Off-topic hijack: I find it odd when there's a single parent on The Amazing Race or Survivor. They always say they want to win for their children, but I think they're sending a mixed message at best.
   5564. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 04:50 PM (#4424978)
I've never know a stay at home parent to take a solo 6 month vacation.


Indeed, it pretty much doesn't make sense, by definition. But that didn't stop the ridiculous argument from being raised.
   5565. The Good Face Posted: April 24, 2013 at 04:52 PM (#4424982)
Two deranged Islamist Chechnyan immigrants perform an unspeakable atrocity in Boston. A deranged African American man shoots up the LIRR. A white religious fanatic murders an abortion doctor. A white religious hustler spellbinds an entire congregation into committing mass suicide. A deranged white ex-serviceman blows up a building in Oklahoma City. A deranged white 20 year old massacres dozens of children in a schoolyard. Why is the ethnic or religious background only considered important in the first of these cases?


This sort of foolishness is part of the problem. If we just write the Borat brothers off as "deranged," we absolve ourselves of the role we played in their actions. No causal chain here! It's not like the Borat brothers were autonomous actors reacting against the actions of USG, they're just deranged! Nobody and nothing needs to change!

It's no doubt comforting to believe that. But it's a belief that the actions of USG are immune to causality; sure we're killing "terrorists" all over the world with virtually no oversight and violating the sovereignty of multiple countries in a way that would be unimaginable to most Americans, but when the friends, family, co-religionists, and sympathizers of those people and countries actually do something about it, they're just deranged. Sheesh.

If people are unwilling or unable to understand reality, they're not going to be able to change it in accordance with their will. I'm fine if we approach the issue with clear eyes and say that this sort of radicalization is a price we're willing to pay to accomplish whatever it is we're accomplishing in our War on Terror. I think that perspective is wrong, but at least it's acknowledging reality. Pretending the Borat brothers are just random deranged people is simply magical thinking that has terrible real world consequences.
   5566. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 04:53 PM (#4424983)
He was able-bodied, yet he needed welfare, yet he was able to take a 6 month vacation.

...To a terrorist hotbed, and then was allowed to return no questions asked, after alarm bells on him had already sounded.

Just business as usual for government!
   5567. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 04:56 PM (#4424984)
He was able-bodied

Able-bodied?!? He was a freaking competitive boxer.

Are there no bouncer jobs in Boston anymore? I guess most of the bars must have closed. After all, it's not much of a college town.
   5568. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 24, 2013 at 05:11 PM (#4424995)
If we just write the Borat brothers off as "deranged," we absolve ourselves of the role we played in their actions.

Not to mention that there isn't a stitch of evidence that they're deranged (*) -- yet our modern liberal brethren won't hestitate to say so, while at the same time hectoring other people for "jumping" to such conclusions as that Borat the Elder may have beaten his wife and may have been up to not much good on his 6-month sojourn to Dagestan.

(*) And plenty that they're not given the obvious rational link between the militant Islam to which they turned, the acts often called for by said militant Islam and their advocated targets, and the acts they committed against the targets they committed them against.
   5569. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 24, 2013 at 05:15 PM (#4424998)
I think there were some posts here about how tough prison is. Apparently, that is not always the case:
More than a dozen Maryland state prison guards helped a dangerous national gang operate a drug-trafficking and money-laundering scheme from behind bars that involved cash payments, sex and access to fancy cars, federal prosecutors said Tuesday.

Thirteen female corrections officers essentially handed over control of a Baltimore jail to gang leaders, prosecutors said. The officers were charged Tuesday in a federal racketeering indictment.

The indictment described a jailhouse seemingly out of control. Four corrections officers became pregnant by one inmate. Two of them got tattoos of the inmate’s first name, Tavon — one on her neck, the other on a wrist.

The guards allegedly helped leaders of the Black Guerilla Family run their criminal enterprise in jail by smuggling cellphones, prescription pills and other contraband in their underwear, shoes and hair. One gang leader allegedly used proceeds to buy luxury cars, including a Mercedes-Benz and a BMW, which he allowed some of the officers to drive.

The Governor of Maryland is looking to run for President, BTW.
   5570. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 24, 2013 at 05:15 PM (#4425000)
Not to mention that there isn't a stitch of evidence that they're deranged (*) -- yet our modern liberal brethren won't hestitate to say so, while at the same time hectoring other people for "jumping" to such conclusions as that Borat the Elder may have beaten his wife.
Why stop there? I mean, we're just thisfar from the "Why do liberals hate America"isms of 2003. You might as well go all the way.
   5571. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 05:16 PM (#4425001)
Not to mention that there isn't a stitch of evidence that they're deranged (*) -- yet our modern liberal brethren won't hestitate to say so, while at the same time hectoring other people for "jumping" to such conclusions as that Borat the Elder may have beaten his wife.

They do the same for all violent criminals b/c they don't want to acknowledge the existence of evil, and evil men. It ruins some sort of Roussea-ian fantasy about how criminals are just noble savages driven to madness by the evils of society.
   5572. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 24, 2013 at 05:20 PM (#4425005)
Why stop there? I mean, we're just thisfar from the "Why do liberals hate America"isms of 2003. You might as well go all the way.

Huh?

Andy invented the adjective "deranged" after a whole bunch of people got all boo-hoo about "piling on" and being "too negative" and "jumping to conclusions." There's no evidence that they're deranged.
   5573. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: April 24, 2013 at 05:22 PM (#4425011)
Two deranged Islamist Chechnyan immigrants perform an unspeakable atrocity in Boston. A deranged African American man shoots up the LIRR. A white religious fanatic murders an abortion doctor. A white religious hustler spellbinds an entire congregation into committing mass suicide. A deranged white ex-serviceman blows up a building in Oklahoma City. A deranged white 20 year old massacres dozens of children in a schoolyard. Why is the ethnic or religious background only considered important in the first of these cases?

This sort of foolishness is part of the problem. If we just write the Borat brothers off as "deranged," we absolve ourselves of the role we played in their actions. No causal chain here! It's not like the Borat brothers were autonomous actors reacting against the actions of USG, they're just deranged! Nobody and nothing needs to change!


Obviously I was using "deranged" as a catchall connector to link these various acts of mass murder, and not as the beginning and the end of an answer.

Of course there's a connection between a "strain" of Islamic fanaticism and the Boston bombings. But you can also find "strains" of similar fanaticism in other belief systems. And trying to generalize about any of those belief systems based on the act of isolated individuals leads you down a road that few of us wish to travel, any more than we should want to judge (for example) snapper's beliefs on the basis of a bunch of pederastic priests or on other not-so-terrific stains (no pun intended) in his Church's history.

Go ahead and monitor those Islamist websites that preach violence and post instructions for making bombs. Why would you think anyone would be against that? Christ, I only wish they'd monitor all websites that engage in violent rhetoric and hatred of the "other", no matter what their particular religious or philosophical pretense---and that's all it is, a pretense for their hatred.

But I want to use those findings to keep track of violent individuals, and to try to gather intelligence that might be useful in preventing further acts of murder. I'm not going to use that intelligence to start making stupid laws and blanket generalizations that target the overwhelming majority of Muslims or Christians---or immigrants---who have nothing to do with websites or philosophies like that.

When two Italian anarchists in the 1920's allegedly murdered two men during an armed robbery, that incident and others were used as an excuse to clamp down on immigration from southern Europe. I would like to think we've learned our lesson from that thoroughly nasty period of history, but I'll believe it when I see it.
   5574. Howling John Shade Posted: April 24, 2013 at 05:22 PM (#4425012)
They do the same for all violent criminals b/c they don't want to acknowledge the existence of evil, and evil men. It ruins some sort of Roussea-ian fantasy about how criminals are just noble savages driven to madness by the evils of society.

Speaking of fantasies and projection...

These were evil men. I don't blame their evilness on anyone but them. I suspect that the older evil one beat his girlfriend (not wife).

However, he was only charged with assault, he was not convicted. When you are talking about a legal process like deportation, that's a monumentally important distinction. Simple. End of. I have no idea why this is a controversial point. It's pretty basic to our system of justice.
   5575. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: April 24, 2013 at 05:24 PM (#4425013)
Andy invented the adjective "deranged" after a whole bunch of people got all boo-hoo about "piling on" and being "too negative" and "jumping to conclusions." There's no evidence that they're deranged.

Again, that wasn't intended as a clinical observation. They knew what they were doing and I'm certainly not trying to set up any bogus insanity defense for them or their actions.
   5576. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 05:26 PM (#4425014)
Speaking of fantasies and projection...

These were evil men. I don't blame their evilness on anyone but them. I suspect that the older evil one beat his girlfriend (not wife).

However, he was only charged with assault he was not convicted. When you are talking about a legal process like deportation, that's a monumentally important distinction. Simple. End of. I have no idea why this is a controversial point. It's pretty basic to our system of justice.


Good, I'm glad you feel that way.

I also didn't say he should have been deported at that point. I said he should have been monitored, and deported after showing jihadist sympathies, and taking an inexplicable 6 month trip to a terrorist hotbed.

Deportation shouldn't require a criminal trial standard of proof. The immigrant has no right to become a citizen. The burden of proof should be on them.
   5577. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: April 24, 2013 at 05:28 PM (#4425016)
They do the same for all violent criminals b/c they don't want to acknowledge the existence of evil, and evil men. It ruins some sort of Roussea-ian fantasy about how criminals are just noble savages driven to madness by the evils of society.

snapper, you sometimes dump more bullshit in one post than a whole field of cattle does in a month, but for sheer assertion without a "chinchilla" of evidence, that steaming pile beats them all.
   5578. The Good Face Posted: April 24, 2013 at 05:28 PM (#4425017)
Not to mention that there isn't a stitch of evidence that they're deranged (*) -- yet our modern liberal brethren won't hestitate to say so, while at the same time hectoring other people for "jumping" to such conclusions as that Borat the Elder may have beaten his wife and may have been up to not much good on his 6-month sojourn to Dagestan.


They're just furthering the narrative. If the Borat brothers were deranged nut cases, then there's no need to pay any attention to our immigration policies. Or anything else. Crazy people happen, nothing anybody could have done! Certainly nothing more diversity couldn't fix.

Conversely, if people realize that Borat the elder was a wife-beating, unemployed, Islamic jihadi on welfare... well that might lead to folks asking all sorts of tricky questions. Questions like, "How the #### did this guy not get deported?" or "WTF is DHS/FBI doing with all our tax dollars?!?" or even, "Why are we still pissing away vast fortunes in WTFistan to kill a handful of goat molesters?!?"
   5579. Monty Posted: April 24, 2013 at 05:29 PM (#4425019)
the Borat brothers


Could you stop calling them that?
   5580. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 24, 2013 at 05:31 PM (#4425020)
Why is the ethnic or religious background only considered important in the first of these cases?

Maybe because that religion is disproportionately involved in terrorists acts? Perhaps because that religion has a significant faction that openly advocates violence and terrorism in a wide variety of circumstances (Salman Rushdie, 9/11, London/Madrid bombings, Mumbai attacks, etc, etc)? When there is a faction of the Methodists that calls for violence against the West, people will take notice of that, too.
   5581. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: April 24, 2013 at 05:34 PM (#4425022)
the Borat brothers


Could you stop calling them that?

Ah, what the hell, I'm starting to think of Good Face/snapper/Ray/SugarBear/Kehoskie as the Dionne quintuplets, so I'm not going to sweat one of those cute li'l quints' resort to a similar shorthand.
   5582. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 24, 2013 at 05:34 PM (#4425023)
I said he should have been monitored, and deported after showing jihadist sympathies, and taking an inexplicable 6 month trip to a terrorist hotbed.

How did he even get let back in? ####, my wife and I went to Canada for a weekend a few years back and were asked to account for every hour and every person we saw and a full car search before they let us back into the country -- and we're taxpaying natural-born citizens of long standing.

How did he explain 6 months away in ####### Dagestan, with no money and no job, leaving behind his wife and child, without immediate alarm bells ringing in the ears of everyone at the airport? Did he lie?
   5583. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 24, 2013 at 05:38 PM (#4425026)
How did he explain 6 months away in ####### Dagestan, with no money and no job, leaving behind his wife and child, without immediate alarm bells ringing in the ears of everyone at the airport?

The whole thing is absurd. He and his entire family were granted asylum, and then, within a few years, they started going back for months-long visits as "tourists."
   5584. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: April 24, 2013 at 05:38 PM (#4425027)
Why is the ethnic or religious background only considered important in the first of these cases?

Maybe because that religion is disproportionately involved in terrorists acts? Perhaps because that religion has a significant faction that openly advocates violence and terrorism in a wide variety of circumstances (Salman Rushdie, 9/11, London/Madrid bombings, Mumbai attacks, etc, etc)? When there is a faction of the Methodists that calls for violence against the West, people will take notice of that, too.


Yeah, just like they generalized about Christians on the basis of Christ-preaching slaveowners and cross-bearing Klansmen and segregationists. We're real good at noticing connections like that.

But less sarcastically, I don't have a damn bit of a problem monitoring and going after violent Islamist individuals or groups. I just have a problem with connecting those groups to the overwhelming majority of Muslims and / or Muslim immigrants.
   5585. zenbitz Posted: April 24, 2013 at 05:50 PM (#4425034)
But Squeaky Fromme knew Manson on the outside. So it's pretty hard to argue that she'd have been deterred or uninfluenced by a deader Charlie Manson.

From reading the wiki page it's clear that Fromme met Manson after he was released from Prison... but before he was sent away for life. Obviously there is some communication from Manson to Fromme afterwards.... but this seems like an odd duck to hang the death penalty on.
   5586. Howling John Shade Posted: April 24, 2013 at 05:52 PM (#4425035)
I also didn't say he should have been deported at that point. I said he should have been monitored, and deported after showing jihadist sympathies, and taking an inexplicable 6 month trip to a terrorist hotbed.

Deportation shouldn't require a criminal trial standard of proof. The immigrant has no right to become a citizen. The burden of proof should be on them.

I actually think you and I pretty much agree on this. Our one disagreement may be on how seriously we take revoking a grant of asylum. I agree he had no inherent right to become a citizen, but he did have a permanent right to be here. I'm not comfortable revoking that absent a conviction, a finding of terrorist involvement from an FBI investigation, or something of like severity. Especially when you're talking about someone with an American child they will be separated from (again, this is in the abstract. This particular child would probably have been better off without his dad).
   5587. zenbitz Posted: April 24, 2013 at 05:54 PM (#4425037)
I learned long ago a healthy skepticism for anything claimed to have a psychological basis (or anything reported to be 'proven' by a study or survey).


Well, everyone should have a healthy skepticism for EVERYTHING. Psychology maybe a little more than physics.

And both Manson's communications with followers *and* prison rapes/crimes are emmiently preventable short of killing the perpetrator ahead of time. Really poor argument.
   5588. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 24, 2013 at 05:56 PM (#4425038)
I actually think you and I pretty much agree on this. Our one disagreement may be on how seriously we take revoking a grant of asylum.

He was traveling back to the same region as a tourist and staying for months at a time. His actions showed he had no need for asylum status.
   5589. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 05:57 PM (#4425042)
Why is the ethnic or religious background only considered important in the first of these cases?

Maybe because that religion is disproportionately involved in terrorists acts?


Amazingly, Andy and his fellow Bingo players don't appear to have noticed that.

(Oh, they claim to notice it. But "How does it apply how does it apply how does it apply!!!! We can't generalize like that!" But it did apply to Borat the elder as he wasn't your typical person just minding his own business, and deporting him would have stopped this attack cold.)
   5590. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 06:02 PM (#4425056)
How did he explain 6 months away in ####### Dagestan, with no money and no job, leaving behind his wife and child, without immediate alarm bells ringing in the ears of everyone at the airport? Did he lie?


Who in god's name knows. We're through the looking glass here.
   5591. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 06:06 PM (#4425066)
I actually think you and I pretty much agree on this. Our one disagreement may be on how seriously we take revoking a grant of asylum.


Not very seriously in this case, since, as Joe points out, he in effect self revoked it.

Especially when you're talking about someone with an American child they will be separated from (again, this is in the abstract. This particular child would probably have been better off without his dad).


Ya think? He beat his child's mother, wasn't earning a living to support them, and headed off to Dagestan for half a year.
   5592. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 24, 2013 at 06:10 PM (#4425070)
Ya think? He beat his child's mother, wasn't earning a living to support them, and headed off to Dagestan for half a year.

To marinate in an ideology that led directly to him bombing the Boston Marathon.

But, really, who are we to say that he was a "bad" father? And what does "bad" even mean in this context? Isn't that really for the mother and child to decide?
   5593. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 06:13 PM (#4425074)
But, really, who are we to say that he was a "bad" father? And what does "bad" even mean in this context?


We don't know! Nobody knows what "bad" means here. It's like "intelligence" or "race." Nobody knows!!!
   5594. Greg K Posted: April 24, 2013 at 06:17 PM (#4425080)
Apropos of nothing...

I just watched the 1975 Flashman adaptation Royal Flash. Surprisingly decent...or do I just think that because I love that book series?
   5595. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 06:21 PM (#4425084)
(5577) Don't sell yourself short Andy. You can match me cow for cow.

You also should recognize the rhetorical device of hyperbole.
   5596. Lassus Posted: April 24, 2013 at 06:22 PM (#4425086)
He was traveling back to the same region as a tourist and staying for months at a time.
The whole thing is absurd. He and his entire family were granted asylum, and then, within a few years, they started going back for months-long visits as "tourists."

I know if I ask for facts you scream pedantry, but the older brother made ONE visit. Ten years after he got here. I can't find anything about family visits, just that the parents are now in Russia, not Chechnya. If there is some other word about everyone going back to Chechnya over and over, where was that stated?

You are making more sense than Good Face, which while not much of a feat is definitely notable. But how hard is it to stay with actual facts, which are, as stated, compulsive enough?
   5597. Monty Posted: April 24, 2013 at 06:26 PM (#4425087)
I just watched the 1975 Flashman adaptation Royal Flash. Surprisingly decent...or do I just think that because I love that book series?


You're crazy. It's terrible. And I say that as someone who loves the books. I wanted it to be good, but...ugh.
   5598. Mayor Blomberg Posted: April 24, 2013 at 06:29 PM (#4425088)
I also didn't say he should have been deported at that point. I said he should have been monitored, and deported after showing jihadist sympathies, and taking an inexplicable 6 month trip to a terrorist hotbed.


yep, we should have required him to move his parents somewhere acceptable.
   5599. Greg K Posted: April 24, 2013 at 06:32 PM (#4425090)
You're crazy. It's terrible. And I say that as someone who loves the books. I wanted it to be good, but...ugh.

You're probably right...maybe I'm just extremely tired or something. Although Malcolm McDowell has some funny lines.

Ouch, apparently my criticker account doesn't have enough information to guess what my rating would be...though it shows the comments of another account user: "not as good as Barry Lyndon".

I do wonder if they could take another shot at it in this day and age. Royal Flash does seem like a good book to start with. The actual first book might be problematic as I imagine it would be difficult for audiences to root for the lovable scamp after he rapes that Indian woman in the first act.
   5600. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 06:38 PM (#4425092)
yep, we should have required him to move his parents somewhere acceptable.


This is just more of the same flawed analysis: arguing each fact in isolation, while ignoring the whole of the evidence.

---

Also, his father was stopped after 9/11 for acting suspiciously down by the WTC, if I recall what I read correctly. Whatever, nothing really of note, except that this family couldn't help but raise flags whereever they went.
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