Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Sunday, March 31, 2013

OTP: April 2013: Daily Caller: Baseball and the GOP: To rebrand the party, think like a sports fan

This week’s GOP autopsy report, commissioned by RNC Chairman Reince Priebus, is a great start in the much-needed task of rebranding the Republican Party. As the chairman acknowledged, “the way we communicate our principles isn’t resonating widely enough” and “we have to be more inclusive.” The report contains 219 recommendations to “connect people to our principles.” To achieve that goal, the party will need a strategic vision of how voters think about politics, which is something that the report lacks. For that, the GOP can learn a lot from another American passion: baseball.

This year, about 75 million Americans will go to the baseball stadium to watch a ballgame, about the same number as those who will vote in next year’s election. We rarely think about why someone becomes a baseball fan, or why they root for a certain team. Nor do we usually think about why someone chooses to vote for a certain political party. But it’s actually a very useful exercise.

When it comes to baseball, fan loyalty has almost nothing to do with the brain, and almost everything to do with the heart. In all of history, there’s never been a baseball fan who rooted for his team because it had the lowest ticket prices, or because it had the most taxpayer-friendly stadium deal, or because its players did the most community service. For the vast majority of Americans, rooting for a baseball team — not to mention, voting for a political party — isn’t really a rational choice; it’s more of a statement of personal identity — a statement telling the world, “This is who I am.” And for most people, defining “who I am” starts with family and community, before branching out into areas like race, age, gender, and class.

Family is pretty straightforward. If your mom and dad are Yankee fans, you’re almost certainly a Yankee fan. The same is true in politics. If your mom and dad are Republicans, you’re almost certainly a Republican.

Community is also pretty straightforward. If you grew up in, say, Philadelphia, chances are pretty great you’re a Phillies fan. Likewise, someone who grew up in Republican territory like, say, suburban Dallas or rural Indiana is much more likely to become a Republican than a nearly identical person from Seattle or Santa Fe.

Cities with more than one baseball team, like New York or Chicago, show revealing breakdowns by race and gender. The racial split in Chicago between Cubs fans on the North Side and White Sox fans on the South Side is well-documented. In New York, there’s an intriguing gender gap between Mets and Yankee fans, with women gravitating a lot more to the Yanks. While there’s a few theories out there trying to explain that, one obvious answer leaps out: Yankees heartthrob Derek Jeter.

In sports, as in politics, people’s convictions can’t be conveniently reduced to who their parents are or what they look like. But those things are an important foundation, upon which more rational sentiments come into being. Once you’re attached to your team on an emotional level — seeing them as a personal reflection of who you are and what you care about most — a rational exterior comes into being through phrases like “the Red Sox are the best team because they have the most heart” or “the Republicans are the best party because they know how to create jobs.”

Tripon Posted: March 31, 2013 at 10:52 AM | 6544 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 57 of 66 pages ‹ First  < 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 >  Last ›
   5601. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 24, 2013 at 06:39 PM (#4425093)
I know if I ask for facts you scream pedantry, but the older brother made ONE visit. Ten years after he got here. I can't find anything about family visits, just that the parents are now in Russia, not Chechnya. If there is some other word about everyone going back to Chechnya over and over, where was that stated?

The news reports I've seen indicated that there were multiple trips among the various family members, and that both parents had actually moved back there.

Regardless, if this family of six was wealthy enough to travel all the way to the U.S. as tourists a decade ago for the purpose of seeking asylum, then they assuredly were wealthy enough to relocate to a different part of Russia. They never should have been a U.S. problem in the first place.
   5602. zenbitz Posted: April 24, 2013 at 06:51 PM (#4425100)
Why bother to deport them? They might sneak back in or blow up some innocent Russians. No, clearly the fault is with Boston Marathon security who should have just arrested them and defused the bombs as soon as they were put down in the crowd!!

   5603. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 24, 2013 at 06:53 PM (#4425101)
Why bother to deport them? They might sneak back in

Impossible. Obama says the border is more secure than ever.
   5604. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 07:01 PM (#4425105)
Impossible. Obama says the border is more secure than ever.


In a way that's true; I mean, certainly it's tough getting a terrorist out.
   5605. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 07:06 PM (#4425110)
yep, we should have required him to move his parents somewhere acceptable.

His parents had asylum in the US. They had no reason to move back.

Moving back to Russia shows the asylum was BS in the first place.
   5606. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 07:08 PM (#4425111)

Ya think? He beat his child's mother, wasn't earning a living to support them, and headed off to Dagestan for half a year.

Did he (allegedly) beat his child's mother, or a previous girlfriend?
   5607. Lassus Posted: April 24, 2013 at 07:18 PM (#4425120)
His parents had asylum in the US. They had no reason to move back.
A few years ago -- the aunt did not recall exactly when -- the father was severely beaten by what she described as a group of Russian athletes as he tried to defend another person from them. The beating left him with medical problems that did not improve with treatment in the United States.

Eventually, with his health failing and having lost a significant amount of weight, the father decided to come back to Dagestan in May 2012. Tamerlan, his oldest son, had just arrived there a couple months earlier.

Anzor Tsarnaev decided to pursue medical treatment, figuring that if he died, he would at least be buried here. The mother also moved in Dagestan a few months later because she was feeling homesick.

ABC News article


Moving back to Russia shows the asylum was BS in the first place.

Assumptions and suppositions are not the same as facts. As with the FBI statement, everyone and anyone can dismiss and claim lies, but that is what you'd be doing.


I'm still trying to find the news reports referenced by Joe in #5601.
   5608. Mayor Blomberg Posted: April 24, 2013 at 07:20 PM (#4425124)
Oh, Lassus, Snapper lies in a fact-free zone.
   5609. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: April 24, 2013 at 07:23 PM (#4425126)
Why is the ethnic or religious background only considered important in the first of these cases?

Maybe because that religion is disproportionately involved in terrorists acts?


Amazingly, Andy and his fellow Bingo players don't appear to have noticed that.

(Oh, they claim to notice it. But "How does it apply how does it apply how does it apply!!!! We can't generalize like that!" But it did apply to Borat the elder as he wasn't your typical person just minding his own business, and deporting him would have stopped this attack cold.)


Did you even bother to read what I wrote in 5584

I don't have a damn bit of a problem monitoring and going after violent Islamist individuals or groups. I just have a problem with connecting those groups to the overwhelming majority of Muslims and / or Muslim immigrants.


before writing that sort of crap? "Don't generalize about Islam or Muslims based on the actions violent individuals or groups" isn't the same thing as saying "We should ignore threats by violent Islamist individuals and groups when they're called to our attention." Or is that distinction too subtle for you Dionne quints to comprehend?



   5610. Steve Treder Posted: April 24, 2013 at 07:23 PM (#4425127)
Assumptions and suppositions are not the same as facts.

Hippie propaganda, that.
   5611. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 24, 2013 at 07:24 PM (#4425128)
Assumptions and suppositions are not the same as facts.

Lassus, what part of that quote is supposed to refute, in the slightest way, anything that's been said? The older brother went to Dagestan before his father moved back. His father moved back for specious health reasons,* and the mother moved back because she claims she was "homesick."**


(* Are we really supposed to believe that Dagestan has better healthcare options than Boston?)
(** More likely, the mother left because she was facing theft charges in Boston; there's an active warrant for her arrest.)
   5612. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 24, 2013 at 07:24 PM (#4425129)
The Joe-Ray-Snapper axis is starting to remind me of the Reddit detectives right after the bombing, all so very smart about everything, and getting absolutely nothing right. Even with the advantage of hindsight, all we're getting is that the right is down on immigration and welfare, and high on the death penalty. It's depressingly the same.
   5613. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 24, 2013 at 07:27 PM (#4425131)
(* Are we really supposed to believe that Dagestan has better healthcare options than Boston?)
He wanted to be at home if he died. It's his homeland. It's in the article. It's in the snippet.

/me shrugs. I guess I could say that my one idiot uncle went back to Taiwan for cancer treatments. Is medical care there really better than here? No, of course not. But he wanted to be buried in Taiwan in case he died, and he couldn't afford cancer treatment in the US.

I don't even know why I would mention that. Joe's just going to ignore anything he can't use for an attack.
   5614. Lassus Posted: April 24, 2013 at 07:29 PM (#4425132)
Lassus, what part of that quote is supposed to refute, in the slightest way, anything that's been said?

The only thing I quoted prior in the same post, what snapper said. That the parents had no reason to move back. That's it. Are you even reading?
   5615. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 07:34 PM (#4425136)
Is medical care there really better than here? No, of course not. But he wanted to be buried in Taiwan in case he died, and he couldn't afford cancer treatment in the US.


Nobody is denied healthcare in America just because they can't afford it, hippie.
   5616. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 24, 2013 at 07:35 PM (#4425137)
He wanted to be at home if he died. It's his homeland. It's in the article. It's in the snippet.

LOL. It appears he made a miraculous recovery over in Dagestan.

The Joe-Ray-Snapper axis is starting to remind me of the Reddit detectives right after the bombing, all so very smart about everything, and getting absolutely nothing right. Even with the advantage of hindsight, all we're getting is that the right is down on immigration and welfare, and high on the death penalty. It's depressingly the same.

If only we were as open-minded as the liberals, right? Only right-wing mouth-breathers could believe that an immigration system that admitted a family full of criminals and whackos, and a welfare system that paid money to a guy who drove a Mercedes, wore designer clothes, and took a 6-month vacation to Dagestan, might need some changes.
   5617. Lassus Posted: April 24, 2013 at 07:41 PM (#4425139)
See, now the arrest warrant, I didn't know that - that's easily as compelling a reason to believe she left as missing her homeland. I'm reasonable.

But that STILL works against what snapper said, which is what I was responding to. She DID have reason to go back - to avoid that warrant. To claim there was something black hat about it or that it makes the original asylum request BS doesn't follow in the slightest.
   5618. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 24, 2013 at 07:45 PM (#4425144)
If only we were as open-minded as the liberals, right? Only right-wing mouth-breathers could believe that an immigration system that admitted a family full of criminals and whackos,
You can frame it that way if it you like, but those changes in the law that you and Ray talked about would have kicked my family out of America — a family that for 30 years consisted of a bunch of conservative, Republican-voting, law-abiding citizens. (We're still all law-abiding, just not so Republican.)

Does anyone really think there's a screening process that could pluck out two teenagers (one not even a teen) and predict that they'd be terrorists nearly a decade later?
   5619. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 24, 2013 at 07:48 PM (#4425146)
See, now the arrest warrant, I didn't know that - that's easily as compelling a reason to believe she left as missing her homeland. I'm reasonable.

But that STILL works against what snapper said, which is what I was responding to. She DID have reason to go back - to avoid that warrant. To claim there was something black hat about it or that it makes the asylum BS doesn't follow in the slightest.

You should have quit after the first paragraph, as the second one is beyond absurd. A person granted asylum is presumed to have a credible fear of persecution if they go back (or are sent back) to the place from which he or she fled. Are you seriously telling us that it was reasonable for the mother to go back to such a place just to flee a theft charge?

***
You can frame it that way if it you like, but those changes in the law that you and Ray talked about would have kicked my family out of America — a family that for 30 years consisted of a bunch of conservative, Republican-voting, law-abiding citizens. (We're still all law-abiding, just not so Republican.)

You have wife-beaters in your family? You have people in your family who publicly sympathize with terror groups? You have people in your family who have triggered warnings to the U.S. government from a foreign government(s) with regards to possible terrorist activity?
   5620. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 07:49 PM (#4425147)

But that STILL works against what snapper said, which is what I was responding to. She DID have reason to go back - to avoid that warrant. To claim there was something black hat about it or that it makes the original asylum request BS doesn't follow in the slightest.


If she was in danger in Russia, she wouldn't have gone back. The fat that she was a criminal here doesn't make it any better.
   5621. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 07:54 PM (#4425149)
But that STILL works against what snapper said, which is what I was responding to. She DID have reason to go back - to avoid that warrant. To claim there was something black hat about it or that it makes the original asylum request BS doesn't follow in the slightest.


Lassus, you may want to consult a dictionary and look up the word "asylum" before you make this your final answer.

(And while you're at it, see if the dictionary has a definition of "intelligence" or "race" for Steve.)
   5622. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 24, 2013 at 07:57 PM (#4425151)
You have wife-beaters in your family?
We did, the same aforementioned idiot uncle who came down with throat cancer. (It's why I refer to him thusly. He's now divorced, with the family's blessing. Nobody talks to him.) My father once spent time in jail for assault before they figured out he wasn't the one doing the assaulting. I had another uncle put in jail for public drunkenness. If Ray's suggestions had come to pass back then, they'd all have been deported.

You have people in your family who have triggered warnings to the U.S. government from a foreign government(s) with regards to possible terrorist activity?
My cousin was on the no-fly list years ago. We assume it's because she was an anti-Iraq War protester.
   5623. Lassus Posted: April 24, 2013 at 07:58 PM (#4425152)
Well, you all can use your international connections to tell me if there was any difference in the family's life and enemies between the year the asylum was granted and the year they went back. I have no such connections.

Avoiding a NYC jail, no matter how much of a country club you all feel it is, is something people actually care quite a bit about.

   5624. Dan The Mediocre Posted: April 24, 2013 at 08:03 PM (#4425154)
Lassus, you may want to consult a dictionary and look up the word "asylum" before you make this your final answer.


Care to figure out what the difference was in the Russia-Chechnya fighting between 2001 and 2011?
   5625. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 08:04 PM (#4425155)
We did, the same aforementioned idiot uncle who came down with throat cancer. (It's why I refer to him thusly. He's now divorced, with the family's blessing. Nobody talks to him.) My father once spent time in jail for assault before they figured out he wasn't the one doing the assaulting. I had another uncle put in jail for public drunkenness. If Ray's suggestions had come to pass back then, they'd all have been deported.


Oh? They were all flagged by a foreign government as being a terror threat, and a competent investigation and followup would have shown good reasons to deport them?

   5626. Steve Treder Posted: April 24, 2013 at 08:05 PM (#4425157)
(And while you're at it, see if the dictionary has a definition of "intelligence" or "race" for Steve.)

Your pride in willful and persistent ignorance of science remains vigorous. I think if you keep at it, you may someday achieve the same manner of blissfully oblivious incuriosity as GW Bush. I know, it's a high bar, but I think you've got the potential to achieve it. Go for it!
   5627. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 24, 2013 at 08:06 PM (#4425158)
We did, the same aforementioned idiot uncle who came down with throat cancer. (It's why I refer to him thusly. He's now divorced, with the family's blessing. Nobody talks to him.) My father once spent time in jail for assault before they figured out he wasn't the one doing the assaulting. I had another uncle put in jail for public drunkenness. If Ray's suggestions had come to pass back then, they'd all have been deported.

I don't recall Ray saying that people exonerated of crimes should be deported, so it sounds like your father wouldn't have gone anywhere. As for your "idiot uncle," it sounds like the U.S. could have lived without him, so I'm not going to worry about him.

***
Avoiding a NYC jail, no matter how much of a country club you all feel it is, is something people actually care quite a bit about, and might affect their actions.

Earlier liberals here claimed that deporting the older Tsarnaev brother would have been bad because it might have broken up the family. Now you're saying it made perfect sense for the mother to break up the family by lamming it for the rest of her life just to avoid a theft charge that might not have yielded any jail time? You've got to be kidding me.
   5628. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 24, 2013 at 08:06 PM (#4425159)
Oh? They were all flagged by a foreign government as being a terror threat, and a competent investigation and followup would have shown good reasons to deport them?
No, but they were all three law-breaking immigrants who came over and sucked on the government's teat! In RDP world, if they're not deportable, no one is.
   5629. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 24, 2013 at 08:12 PM (#4425160)
No, but they were all three law-breaking immigrants who came over and sucked on the government's teat! In RDP world, if they're not deportable, no one is.

Your father was a lawbreaker? You just said he was exonerated [#5622].
   5630. Lassus Posted: April 24, 2013 at 08:16 PM (#4425162)
Earlier liberals here

BINGO! Not me, though.

claimed that deporting the older Tsarnaev brother would have been bad because it might have broken up the family. Now you're saying it made perfect sense for the mother to break up the family by lamming it for the rest of her life just to avoid a theft charge that might not have yielded any jail time? You've got to be kidding me.

Don't be such a child. Breaking up the older brother's family, i.e., wife and child. The kids were adults when the mother went back, no one was talking about that family. EDIT: Or maybe they were, maybe I'm wrong. I don't feel like going back to check. Even so, this is a dumb thing for me to even answer, and you to use, as I wasn't involved.

The funny thing is, I've agreed with you on the investigation, on what should have happened, on the deportation being fine. But you can't even bear to just stick with known things, and you can't BEAR that someone would dare question you, LOL LIBERALS LOL.

Rub my face in it some more, Joe. Where are these reports noted in #5101 of the multiple family travels back to the home Muslim base? I have still not run across them. I'm ready to admit error.
   5631. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 08:16 PM (#4425163)
No, but they were all three law-breaking immigrants who came over and sucked on the government's teat!


The facts you provided are in violent contradiction with each other. Maybe we can have a productive discussion once you figure out which story you're going to stick to?
   5632. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 24, 2013 at 08:23 PM (#4425166)
Don't be such a child. Breaking up the older brother's family, i.e., wife and child.

The older brother didn't have a wife or child when he was arrested for assault.

The funny thing is, I've agreed with you on the investigation, on what should have happened, on the deportation being fine. But you can't even bear to just stick with known things, and you can't BEAR that someone would dare question you, LOL LIBERALS LOL.

Rub my face in it some more, Joe. Where are these reports noted in #5101 of the multiple family travels back to the home Muslim base? I have still not run across them.

I can't "stick to known things"? The only thing I've mentioned that might be incorrect is that there were multiple trips back to Russia, but that's essentially irrelevant. Based on what we know, this family never should have been granted asylum in the first place. If they could fly all the way to the U.S., they could have moved to some other part of Russia.
   5633. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 24, 2013 at 08:27 PM (#4425169)
Your father was a lawbreaker? You just said he was exonerated [#5622].
He was, but that wouldn't stop Ray. After all, when the FBI investigated and found no evidence to work with with the bomber, it was only "due either to incompetence or to not continuing to follow him after they had already investigated him." My dad got into a lot of scrapes (older Chinese guy who spoke broken English, mixing it up in Missouri), and will proudly tell you he never backed down from a fight. It's been pretty clearly argued that conclusive evidence is totally unnecessary in order to deport someone. A guy on taxpayer's largess getting into multiple scrapes? I'm just glad you guys weren't in charge of immigration.
   5634. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 24, 2013 at 08:33 PM (#4425177)
He was, but that wouldn't stop Ray, after all, when the FBI investigated and found no evidence to work with, it was only "due either to incompetence or to not continuing to follow him after they had already investigated him."

This is bizarre. You're attributing an incorrect position to Ray vis-a-vis the deportation of innocent people while also pretending that the FBI didn't drop the ball by not keeping a closer eye on the older Tsarnaev brother.

My dad got into a lot of scrapes (older Chinese guy who spoke broken English, mixing it up in Missouri), and will proudly tell you he never backed down from a fight. It's been pretty clearly argued that conclusive evidence is totally unnecessary in order to deport someone. A guy on taxpayer's largess getting into multiple scrapes? I'm just glad you guys weren't in charge of immigration.

This is just more of your "woe is me" routine when it comes to immigration. It seems like you want to see yourself as a victim (despite apparently being a U.S.-born citizen), but you're not so good at identifying your alleged persecutors. (Hint: It's not the right-wingers who are trying to limit skilled Asian immigration or reduce the number of Asians in the best schools, etc.)
   5635. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: April 24, 2013 at 08:40 PM (#4425190)
So I guess Ray's answer to the question posed in 5609 is that he didn't see the question. Must be that, because so far he's studiously stonewalled it, and we know he never would do anything like that intentionally. Must be some sort of dyslexia or something.
   5636. Howie Menckel Posted: April 24, 2013 at 08:42 PM (#4425191)

CBS: "Drug sales may have financed Boston terror plot"

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57581299/drugs-sales-may-have-financed-boston-terror-plot/

#releasethehounds

lots more re welfare benefits, whether shots were fired from boat, etc
   5637. zenbitz Posted: April 24, 2013 at 08:43 PM (#4425192)
Clearly the way to stop terrorism is to investigate everyone until enough evidence is uncovered to dedport or imprison or execute them. Or do we only do this to the guys who are demonstrated to be terrorists after the fact?

Freedom isnt free. Some times innocents have to pay the price. Its ###### up but take it up with God.
   5638. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 24, 2013 at 08:45 PM (#4425194)
He was, but that wouldn't stop Ray. After all, when the FBI investigated and found no evidence to work with with the bomber, it was only "due either to incompetence or to not continuing to follow him after they had already investigated him." My dad got into a lot of scrapes (older Chinese guy who spoke broken English, mixing it up in Missouri), and will proudly tell you he never backed down from a fight. It's been pretty clearly argued that conclusive evidence is totally unnecessary in order to deport someone. A guy on taxpayer's largess getting into multiple scrapes? I'm just glad you guys weren't in charge of immigration.

I'm confused. What does a guy coming to the US from Taiwan and getting in a couple scrapes have to do with the Borat brothers and their family? Did you or your father fly back to Taiwan for 6 months to get radicalized and plan bombings?

If you'd blown up a local marathon, killing an 8 year old and maiming 170 people and killed a cop, would your father have said publicly that "all hell will break loose" in the US if the police happened to kill you when they were trying to catch you?
   5639. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 24, 2013 at 08:46 PM (#4425195)
I learned long ago a healthy skepticism for anything claimed to have a psychological basis (or anything reported to be 'proven' by a study or survey).


Well, everyone should have a healthy skepticism for EVERYTHING. Psychology maybe a little more than physics.

And both Manson's communications with followers *and* prison rapes/crimes are emmiently preventable short of killing the perpetrator ahead of time. Really poor argument.


zenbitz, when I wrote that it didn't have anything to do with Manson, but instead TGF's (iirc) claim that libruls discount religion while placing abundant faith in the claim of psychologists. I was noting his claim was specious, but this had nothing to do with specific people or movements. Certainly not Manson.

Once again, I am astounded at the amount of power all these right wing, keep the government out of my ####, people want to all of a sudden cede to the government. By all means, lets re-instate the Alien and Sedition Acts while we're at it.


This episode has brought out the troll beating just below the surface in our resident righties' breasts. How some of you keep banging your head against that much random and self-contradictory stupidity without leaving your brains permanently on the floor is awe-inspiring.

As for the sad episode in Boston, does everyone grasp that this kind of thing is not always preventable? That the FBI (can't quite believe I'm saying this) sometimes does its job, that some signs are there but not enough to warrant further action; that Russia complaining to first the FBI then the CIA, but without proper followups by Russia, made timely intervention impossible?

It's too serious a matter to warrant disposing of with a shrug, but just like many murders are not preventable, so are other depraved acts. It's entirely possible in this case that there wasn't enough evidence to proceed (bizarre complaints and automatic deportation upon receipt of a complaint notwithstanding). I'm not optimistic that Congress will do a good job of investigating whether proper procedures were followed, and whether the procedures in place were wise ones, but there's enough attention being paid to this that we should have the ability to make an intelligent assessment of what, if anything, might have been done, and fairly soon at that.
   5640. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 24, 2013 at 08:50 PM (#4425197)
This episode has brought out the troll beating just below the surface in our resident righties' breasts. How some of you keep banging your head against that much random and self-contradictory stupidity without leaving your brains permanently on the floor is awe-inspiring.

Silly. I don't see anyone here arguing for a more powerful government, just a more competent one.
   5641. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 24, 2013 at 08:55 PM (#4425200)
This is just more of your "woe is me" routine when it comes to immigration. It seems like you want to see yourself as a victim (despite apparently being a U.S.-born citizen), but you're not so good at identifying your alleged persecutors.
If anyone owns the "woe is me" routine, it's you and your daily "I blame liberals" routine. The fact is that we /won/. My dad was poor and got #### on in school and we lived on food stamps for two years, and we /won/, and the US won because it gained what eventually became a giant family of tax-paying tech industry workers even though none of the adult immigrants would have qualified as "skilled Asian immigration". Taxpayer dollars got my dad through school and put food on our table. I'm forever grateful.

Yes, immigration's a big issue for me. Now, the next wave of guys just like my dad are coming from Mexico, and I'm rooting for them, but I see all those things that made my family's success possible getting kicked to the curb for the new guys. I think it sucks. If you're looking for woes, they're the one's who've got them.
   5642. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 24, 2013 at 08:59 PM (#4425202)
From the article linked to, above:

Earlier, it was reported that Tamerlan received welfare benefits from the state up until last year, when he became ineligible based on family income. A spokesman for the state Office of Health and Human Services on Wednesday confirmed a Boston Herald story that Tamerlan, his wife and their toddler daughter had received benefits.

A lawyer for his wife, Katherine Russell Tsarnaeva, has said that she worked 70 to 80 hours per week as a home health aide while her husband cared for their daughter.

The state says both Tamerlan and Dzhokhar — his brother and the other bombing suspect — received welfare benefits as children through their parents while the family lived in Massachusetts.

Neither was receiving benefits at the time of the bombing.


I heard that one of the bombers stopped receiving benefits last year once his wife, Katherine, began working those hours. Has that been verified?

If anyone owns the "woe is me" routine, it's you and your daily "I blame liberals" routine. The fact is that we /won/. My dad was poor and got #### on in school and we lived on food stamps for two years, and we /won/, and the US won because it gained what eventually became a giant family of tax-paying tech industry workers even though none of the adult immigrants would have qualified as "skilled Asian immigration". Taxpayer dollars got my dad through school and put food on our table. I'm forever grateful.


Yup. My family happened to have just enough people with money that my mom and dad were able to get a loan from an uncle (with interest!) to make the down payment on their first house. Otherwise they likely would have been permanent apartment dwellers unable to trade in their house 25 years later, after property values skyrocketed, and retire early. Pretty much everyone needs a break. Sometimes we're fortunate to have family members who can help. Sometimes it's a stretch on food stamps that lets us get through without going permanently under.

Sometimes it's a government subsidized student loan to an 18 year old with no collateral. And so on. I'm wondering how many 18 year olds who end up doing really well have, by that age, paid enough in taxes to warrant the use of the infrastructure necessary to their doing really well. Wasn't Ray, for example, operating on borrowed money (that paid for infrastructure, among other things) and the backs of manual laborers he gave nothing to until he was able to establish himself and start paying real taxes? And, did he ever say 'thank you'?
   5643. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 24, 2013 at 09:05 PM (#4425208)
If anyone owns the "woe is me" routine, it's you and your daily "I blame liberals" routine. The fact is that we /won/. My was poor and got #### on in school and we lived on food stamps for two years, and we /won/, and the US won because it gained what eventually became a giant family of tax-paying tech industry workers even though none of the adult immigrants would have qualified as "skilled Asian immigration". Taxpayer dollars got my dad through school and put food on our table. I'm forever grateful.

Now you're overcompensating with false bravado. Every time immigration is debated here, you act like the whole thing is one big effort to kick you and your family out of the country, even going so far as to misrepresent people's positions just to further your victimization narrative. It's silly.

Yes, immigration's a big issue for me. Now, the next wave of guys just like my dad are coming from Mexico, and I'm rooting for them, but I see all those things that made my family's success possible getting kicked to the curb for the new guys. I think it sucks. If you're looking for woes, they're the one's who've got them.

If you believe the "next wave of guys just like [your] dad are coming from Mexico," you're kidding yourself. Nothing could be further from the truth. And with every form of government spending higher now than ever, I'd love to see the list of things being "kicked to the curb for the new guys." (By the way, are you referring to legal immigrant "new guys" or illegal immigrant "new guys," or do you make no distinction between the two?)
   5644. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 24, 2013 at 09:06 PM (#4425210)
It's too serious a matter to warrant disposing of with a shrug, but just like many murders are not preventable, so are other depraved acts. It's entirely possible in this case that there wasn't enough evidence to proceed (bizarre complaints and automatic deportation upon receipt of a complaint notwithstanding). I'm not optimistic that Congress will do a good job of investigating whether proper procedures were followed, and whether the procedures in place were wise ones, but there's enough attention being paid to this that we should have the ability to make an intelligent assessment of what, if anything, might have been done, and fairly soon at that.

Then we should shut DHS and TSA down, which I wouldn't necessarily be averse to. It was clear we didn't have the stomach to let them carry out their purported mission when we let them get away (**) with groping and hassling little old ladies at airports by way of pretending that they were as much a terrorist threat as the 25-year-old visitor on a temporary visa from Saudi Arabia.(*) If our "values" hew to self-delusion more than effectiveness -- and I have little doubt they do -- then there's no need to have them around. They're a waste of money and a hindrance to freedom.

(*) Or the unemployed welfare collector from Chechnya who'd just done a 6-month spell in Dagestan.

(**) Upon further review, too tame a term. That craziness was applauded in many quarters.
   5645. Publius Publicola Posted: April 24, 2013 at 09:09 PM (#4425211)
Silly. I don't see anyone here arguing for a more powerful government, just a more competent one.


This is batshit. How does one go about improving the performance of a work unit without empowering it?

You can do one of two things. You can downsize government and accept the fact it isn't going to function as well or you can beef it up to get it to perform better. You can't disempower it and expect it to perform better. If you think you can, you're fool.
   5646. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 24, 2013 at 09:19 PM (#4425215)
How does one go about improving the performance of a work unit without empowering it?

They've already been empowered. It probably doesn't help their job performance to be relentlessly bombarded by BS like some middle-aged Methodist from Minneapolis is as likely a terrorist as Borat the Elder. Since that BS is never going away, we're probably better off just getting rid of certain agencies, as noted in 5644. The US isn't that great at bureaucracy and administration to begin with, and heaping a big load of BS on top of that headwind likely renders the task hopeless.
   5647. Publius Publicola Posted: April 24, 2013 at 09:32 PM (#4425228)
The US isn't that great at bureaucracy and administration to begin with, and heaping a big load of BS on top of that headwind likely renders the task hopeless.


?? The US government is looked at as a paragon of functionality by the rest of the world. For instance, whenever the US government decides on something, like legalizing gay marriage or the approval of a new drug or methodology for evaluating environmental safety, the rest of the world looks hard at it and some just assume that "Well, if this is the US' position, that's good enough for us."

Only US righties complain about the dysfunction/oppression of the US government, because they haven't experienced what true governmental dysfunction/oppression is really like and don't appreciate how lucky they are to have the government they have. I think it would be mighty healthy for Good Face and Ray and DiPerna to live in a place like Russia or Somalia or North Korea for awhile, where they do come down hard on criminals or they don't bother with you at all or you don't have to pay any taxes.
   5648. Publius Publicola Posted: April 24, 2013 at 09:38 PM (#4425230)
They've already been empowered.


How do you cut spending on something and empower it? Name me one instance where cutting staff got the work unit to perform better or produce more? Any example at all.
   5649. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 24, 2013 at 09:42 PM (#4425235)
?? The US government is looked at as a paragon of functionality by the rest of the world. For instance, whenever the US government decides on something, like legalizing gay marriage or the approval of a new drug or methodology for evaluating environmental safety, the rest of the world looks hard at it and some just assume that "Well, if this is the US' position, that's good enough for us."

Only US righties complain about the dysfunction/oppression of the US government, because they haven't experienced what true governmental dysfunction/oppression is really like and don't appreciate how lucky they are to have the government they have.

All of this was true 50 years ago and maybe even 100 years ago, when the size and scope of U.S. government were far smaller.
   5650. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 24, 2013 at 09:45 PM (#4425236)
Now you're overcompensating with false bravado. Every time immigration is debated here, you act like the whole thing is one big effort to kick you and your family out of the country, even going so far as to misrepresent people's positions just to further your victimization narrative. It's silly.
Not my family specifically, but I don't have to misrepresent anyone to show that there are plenty of people on the political right who would love to kick out people who are now where my family once was.
If you believe the "next wave of guys just like [your] dad are coming from Mexico," you're kidding yourself. Nothing could be further from the truth.
They are just like where my dad was. I should be more specific; the family they spawned are techies, but that first generation consists of realtors (my folks), sanitation worker, secretary, construction worker, a FedEx guy, cashier, translator. Modest careers, but their kids are doing alright.
   5651. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 24, 2013 at 09:52 PM (#4425240)
Not my family specifically, but I don't have to misrepresent anyone to show that there are plenty of people on the political right who would love to kick out people who are now where my family once was.

Well, if that's true, it's unclear why you kept insisting that people here would have wanted your father deported. I know there are people who want immigration reduced and/or illegal immigrants deported, but I'm not aware of any movement to kick out non-criminals who immigrated to the U.S. legally. I can't think of a single person who advocates such a position, either on this site or in the political arena.

They are just like where my dad was. I should be more specific; the family they spawned are techies, but that first generation consists of realtors (my folks), sanitation worker, secretary, construction worker, a FedEx guy, cashier, translator. Modest careers, but their kids are doing alright.

If this was true for the children of Mexican and other Latin American immigrants, California would be in far better shape, and Silicon Valley would be full of second-, third-, and fourth-generation Latinos (which, of course, it's not). I can't tell if the above comment is one of false modesty or willful liberal self-delusion, but second-generation Asians massively outperform second- and third-generation Latinos in every positive metric.
   5652. Publius Publicola Posted: April 24, 2013 at 10:02 PM (#4425253)
Good Face and Ray and DiPerna Kehoskie


fixed
   5653. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 24, 2013 at 10:17 PM (#4425263)
   5654. Publius Publicola Posted: April 24, 2013 at 10:18 PM (#4425264)
That's awfully nice of him.
   5655. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: April 24, 2013 at 10:28 PM (#4425285)
I think it would be mighty healthy for Good Face and Ray and Kehoskie to live in a place like Russia or Somalia or North Korea for awhile,

I think it would have been even healthier in terms of what they'd contribute to these discussions if they'd born Mexicans or Chechnyans.
   5656. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 24, 2013 at 10:34 PM (#4425289)

CIA recommendation to put Boston Marathon bombing suspect Tamerlan Tsarnaev on watch list ignored

The CIA recommended putting terror suspect Tamerlan Tsarnaev on a watch list 19 months before the Boston Marathon bombing — after Russian officials sounded the alarm about his radical Islamist views.

The spy agency shared its concerns with the FBI, Homeland Security, the State Department and the National Counterterrorism Center, a U.S. intelligence official said Wednesday.

The FBI received identical information on Tsarnaev in March 2011, including possible travel plans, but no action was taken by any agency.


***
I think it would have been even healthier in terms of what they'd contribute to these discussions if they'd born Mexicans or Chechnyans.

If you favor eliminating the U.S.'s borders, just say so. Otherwise, this is glib nonsense.
   5657. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: April 24, 2013 at 10:58 PM (#4425311)


CIA recommendation to put Boston Marathon bombing suspect Tamerlan Tsarnaev on watch list ignored

The CIA recommended putting terror suspect Tamerlan Tsarnaev on a watch list 19 months before the Boston Marathon bombing — after Russian officials sounded the alarm about his radical Islamist views.

The spy agency shared its concerns with the FBI, Homeland Security, the State Department and the National Counterterrorism Center, a U.S. intelligence official said Wednesday.

The FBI received identical information on Tsarnaev in March 2011, including possible travel plans, but no action was taken by any agency.


Russia asked U.S. twice to investigate Tamerlan Tsarnaev, official says

A senior U.S. official with direct knowledge of the information says "the issue with Russia is that the initial information was extremely thin."

The Russians believed he was "becoming radicalized."

"There were no details, no examples, no threads to pull," the source said. "Because of the rather light nature of the information we did go back to them and asked can you tell us more. We never heard back."

"They did not give a case report back when the United States inquired," said another source with knowledge of the investigation.

Officials have said that the FBI investigation went as far as it could based on the vague information.
   5658. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 24, 2013 at 11:03 PM (#4425313)
Officials have said that the FBI investigation went as far as it could based on the vague information.

Apparently, it didn't even go as far as Google, where various internet users apparently had little trouble finding the guy's YouTube account within minutes after he was named in news reports last week.
   5659. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: April 24, 2013 at 11:13 PM (#4425315)
Apparently, it didn't even go as far as Google, where various internet users apparently had little trouble finding the guy's YouTube account within minutes after he was named in news reports last week.


Up to your old tricks of disbelieving the written word if it clashes with your political viewpoint I see. I'm surprised you didn't find it laughable.

Anyway, did that you tube account exist 2 years ago? If not, I don't see how it's relevant.

Oh, I forgot the all powerful FBI is supposed to continuously investigate until they find something.
   5660. Jay Z Posted: April 24, 2013 at 11:17 PM (#4425316)
Silly. I don't see anyone here arguing for a more powerful government, just a more competent one.


Law enforcement does reasonably well on tracking down people who have already done heinous acts. Also do pretty well with people who threaten publicly that they will do specific heinous acts. Also people who are acting in a overtly threatening manner in public.

The idea that anyone inside or outside of government can ferret out the tiny percentage who will actually commit heinous acts based on vaguely suspicious behavior is naive. There are tons of people who are weird or creepy, and there's not much we can do about it. This isn't Minority Report; we can't predict who will do heinous acts, so we're limited to waiting until they actually make a move and hope we're lucky enough to catch them or they brag about what they're going to do beforehand.
   5661. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 24, 2013 at 11:23 PM (#4425318)
Anyway, did that you tube account exist 2 years ago? If not, I don't see how it's relevant.

If they had placed him on the watch list, as the CIA apparently requested, and . . . uh . . . actually watched him, they might have spotted the U Tube account, or perhaps some of the other signs. Hindsight is 20-20, but it would be foolish to not look very carefully at whether things could have been done differently.
   5662. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 11:34 PM (#4425320)
Not my family specifically, but I don't have to misrepresent anyone to show that there are plenty of people on the political right who would love to kick out people who are now where my family once was.

Well, if that's true, it's unclear why you kept insisting that people here would have wanted your father deported. I know there are people who want immigration reduced and/or illegal immigrants deported, but I'm not aware of any movement to kick out non-criminals who immigrated to the U.S. legally. I can't think of a single person who advocates such a position, either on this site or in the political arena.


You can't think of any because in his utter delusion fueled by a massive decades-old chip on his shoulder, these people exist only in his head.

Or, he's free to name these "plenty of people on the political right" if he wishes. I'm not holding my breath.
   5663. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 11:43 PM (#4425323)
The CIA recommended putting terror suspect Tamerlan Tsarnaev on a watch list 19 months before the Boston Marathon bombing — after Russian officials sounded the alarm about his radical Islamist views.


But wait - I thought Russian officials weren't specific. I thought they were upset with him because he didn't think Rudolf Nureyev was all that great.

Oh:

The Russians believed he was "becoming radicalized."

..

Officials have said that the FBI investigation went as far as it could based on the vague information.


Yeah. Apparently running periodic background checks and having an intern do google searches were a bridge too far for the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
   5664. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 11:50 PM (#4425329)
Anyway, did that you tube account exist 2 years ago? If not, I don't see how it's relevant.


Allow me to educate you: a watch list means... that you watch the person.

Here. From dictionary.com:

watch list
noun
a list of persons or things to watch for possible action in the future


Oh, I forgot the all powerful FBI is supposed to continuously investigate until they find something.


That's the "watch" part. When I watch my two year old niece, I don't glance over once to make sure she's ok and then go out for pizza. I follow her around the house.
   5665. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: April 24, 2013 at 11:54 PM (#4425330)
I doubt the CIA ever asked them. It's laughable that the FBI would ignore them.
   5666. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2013 at 11:56 PM (#4425332)
I doubt the CIA ever asked them. It's laughable that the FBI would ignore them.


Now who's talking out of his ass?
   5667. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 25, 2013 at 12:04 AM (#4425335)
If they had placed him on the watch list, as the CIA apparently requested, and . . . uh . . . actually watched him, they might have spotted the U Tube account, or perhaps some of the other signs. Hindsight is 20-20, but it would be foolish to not look very carefully at whether things could have been done differently.


We should know fairly soon whether and how the CIA asked the FBI to watch him. That's one of the things these investigations usually turn up. Will all the CYA going on in agencies, the lack of a paper trail is unthinkable.
   5668. Manny Coon Posted: April 25, 2013 at 01:09 AM (#4425351)
With the watch list how many people are actually on it? I've seen some places say it's about 500,000 people, if that is case I wouldn't think they would have nearly enough resources to watch all of them. If that's not true, how many people are on it?

Also let's say you're on the watch list and you watch a terrorism video on youtube, while that is obviously very suspicious behavior, you haven't committed a crime, so what sort of action can be taken against you? How do we know someone didn't check out Tamerlan, see he was watching the video and just not be able to do much about it? How many other people watch videos like that in the USA? It looks like some of the video on his list have hundreds of thousands of views.
   5669. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 25, 2013 at 01:31 AM (#4425355)
I doubt the CIA ever asked them. It's laughable that the FBI would ignore them.

The Washington Post is reporting that the CIA Pushed To Add Boston Bomber To Terror Watch List. The New York Times has a similar article suggesting both the CIA & FBI wanted Tsarnaev on the watch list.
   5670. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 25, 2013 at 02:14 AM (#4425360)
With the watch list how many people are actually on it?


The 'watch list', and the CIA asking the FBI to watch someone are two very different things. Being on the 'watch list' doesn't mean you're being actively monitored. More like if your name shows up somewhere (such as watching a youtube video on bombmaking) and is compared by software with the watch list, and a match is found, you get bumped up the list. Certain activities will get you bumped up to the point of active investigation, while others will simply increase the chances that other activities will get you actively investigated.

Watch lists were consolidated a while back. Your entry on the list should include pertinent information like, who wants you on it, who in govt has spoken with you, and so on. Should.

I would have assumed a guy under one agency's suspicion who then spent better than half a year in a part of the world close by where his radical sympathies lay would have been looked into upon his return to the US, but, hey.

Acc to TFA, he was in the TIDE database. Why that doesn't overlap usefully with the master watch list is a puzzler.

But the CIA’s subsequent involvement in the case complicates that chronology, raising the possibility that Tsarnaev was still on the TIDE list when he returned. If Customs officials had alerted the FBI to his return, the bureau might have found reason to question him further in the months leading up to the attacks.

Instead, the FBI was not notified of his return, and it not even clear that the bureau was aware that Tsarnaev’s name had been added to the TIDE database at the behest of the CIA.


He was cleared of 'extremist links' in 2011. I'm guessing that means he wasn't actively seeking out co-conspirators. That's one way for a lone nut or two to slip through the cracks.

It's not clear how the writer is certain Customs did not notify the FBI.

Fwiw, it's laughable the FBI will do whatever the CIA asks them to do. Well, maybe not laughable, but definitely amusing.
   5671. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 25, 2013 at 02:33 AM (#4425363)
From that center-right rag, the NYTimes:

Under the Emergency Planning and Community Right-to-Know Act, the plant is required to send an annual report detailing the hazardous chemicals it keeps on site to three state and local groups — the Texas Department of State Health Services, the local fire department and a group of county emergency officials known as the Local Emergency Planning Committee.

Plant managers sent the report, called a Tier II report, to the state agency this year and said that in 2012 the facility had 540,000 pounds of ammonium nitrate stored, for sale to local farmers. That amount is more than 100 times that used in the Oklahoma City bombing. The report was also sent to the Local Emergency Planning Committee, a county official said. It was unclear if the plant sent the report to the West Volunteer Fire Department, but it appeared likely.

.................................

After the Sept. 11 attacks, Congress passed a law requiring plants that use or store explosives or high-risk chemicals to file reports with the Homeland Security Department so it can increase security at such facilities. That requirement includes any plant with more than 400 pounds of ammonium nitrate, but a Homeland Security official said that West Fertilizer had not filed such a report, even though it had 1,350 times that amount. The plant is not on the department’s list of 4,000 facilities with high-risk chemicals, and one official said it might have been placed on that list if it had filed a report.

.................................

Inspectors with the Texas Feed and Fertilizer Control Service, however, had made at least 35 visits to the plant since 2006, including one on April 5, 12 days before the blast. That agency regulates aspects of the fertilizer industry as part of the state chemist’s office, and oversees the sale of ammonium nitrate in the state. The state chemist, Tim Herrman, said the law prohibits him from disclosing information about the 115 facilities that hold permits to sell ammonium nitrate in Texas.

Paul Orum, a consultant on chemical safety, said a major shortcoming in the system of regulating chemical plants is the reliance on self-reporting. If a company like West Fertilizer fails to file a required report or misreports the risks it faces, it is often hard for agencies, with their budgetary constraints and overstretched staffs, to catch such errors. In its 2011 Risk Management Plan filed with the E.P.A., West Fertilizer did not check the box saying the plant might face a risk of fire or explosion.


The last sentence doesn't look good, but OTOH the Texas Feed and Fertilizer Control Service knew something of the plant's inventory. It remains to be seen whether the TFFCS does anything more than check inventory and make sure chemicals aren't being stolen or sold to nefarious types.
   5672. BrianBrianson Posted: April 25, 2013 at 04:45 AM (#4425373)
His parents had asylum in the US. They had no reason to move back.

Moving back to Russia shows the asylum was BS in the first place.


This position is dumber than a sack of hair. If the asylum was a fradulent attempt to enter America, they never would've left. That they went back as soon as they believed it was safe clearly demonstrates they left because it was too dangerous to stay, even though they very much wanted to stay.
   5673. Lassus Posted: April 25, 2013 at 07:06 AM (#4425377)

If righties want to have a good laugh at the lefties' expense, check out today's Daily News.
   5674. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: April 25, 2013 at 07:45 AM (#4425382)
Now who's talking out of his ass?


On a more serious note, why is the CIA's claim that they asked him to be put on a watch list and the FBI refused (Joe's link) more believable than the FBI's claim that "The FBI is under very strict legal guidelines and standards when investigating Americans or persons on American soil. The standards are carefully scrutinized." (my link)? Maybe both are true, maybe neither. But I'm sick and tired of the hand waving and rife speculation by the Dionne's when evidence contrary to their views surfaces. I'm not going to play Joe's game again.

In the CNN link, the FBI says they had "vague" evidence with no follow up and thus were constrained by law by how much investigation they could do on an American resident. Does Joe have evidence this is not true? If so, he should go to work for a major metropolitan newspaper. He's got a Pulitzer in the making. If he has none, he should STFU on this until the adults in the media get the real story. Then we can debate who's feet to lay the blame at.
   5675. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: April 25, 2013 at 09:05 AM (#4425406)
5673: That's ridiculous. Paltrow? Really?
   5676. Greg K Posted: April 25, 2013 at 09:23 AM (#4425410)
5673: That's ridiculous. Paltrow? Really?

Agreed, I like Paltrow more than most, but that's crazy. I don't know which political alignment the Daily News has, but all tenets inherent in that political ideology are suspect to me now.
   5677. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 25, 2013 at 09:39 AM (#4425414)
This position is dumber than a sack of hair. If the asylum was a fradulent attempt to enter America, they never would've left. That they went back as soon as they believed it was safe clearly demonstrates they left because it was too dangerous to stay, even though they very much wanted to stay.

First of all, they emigrated from Kyrgyzstan, not Chechnya, so it's not clear what they were seeking asylum from.

The most likely reason is they wanted to live in the US because it's a nicer country than Kyrgyzstan. They had economic motives, like most immigrants, and used the asylum dodge to jump to the front of the queue. When the parents couldn't get jobs in the US, they engaged in petty theft, and left the country.
   5678. zonk Posted: April 25, 2013 at 10:00 AM (#4425431)
I think Paltrow qualifies in the pure, boring 'beautiful' sense.... Impeccable skin, perfectly symmetrical facial structure.... I think Paltrow is a decent choice for the 'classical' beautiful.

That said, among the women I'll never sleep with -- I think I'd have no problem ranking a good 50 ahead of her in terms of the looser, more bohemian "hotness" that I'd prefer...
   5679. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: April 25, 2013 at 10:06 AM (#4425439)
The Paltrow thing was a joke, of course - I strongly doubt she'd be my pick if I gave much thought to that sort of thing, but she's certainly pretty.
   5680. The Good Face Posted: April 25, 2013 at 10:10 AM (#4425445)
The Paltrow thing was a joke, of course - I strongly doubt she'd be my pick if I gave much thought to that sort of thing, but she's certainly pretty.


She's pretty, but I can't ever remember any male friend of mine including her on the list of people/celebrities they found to be "hot," even when she was a young actress.
   5681. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 25, 2013 at 10:18 AM (#4425459)
You can't think of any because in his utter delusion fueled by a massive decades-old chip on his shoulder, these people exist only in his head.
Not at all. Unskilled men with no college education who barely speak English and depended on the U.S. government for welfare? Toss in a few random run-ins with the law, and these are exactly the type of guys who you and Joe have argued should not be allowed in the United States. If I have a chip on my shoulders, it's only because people like you have argued so hard all my life that people like me should never have been here in the first place.
   5682. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 25, 2013 at 10:22 AM (#4425466)
Not at all. Unskilled men with no college education who barely speak English and depended on the U.S. government for welfare? Toss in a few random run-ins with the law, and these are exactly the type of guys who you and Joe have argued should not be allowed in the United States. If I have a chip on my shoulders, it's only because people like you have argued so hard all my life that people like me should never have been here in the first place.

Given there's a limit to the number of immigrants we can absorb, is that really the profile of immigrants you think we should be targeting for the good of the country as a whole?

Why wouldn't we target highly skilled, college educated, immigrants who speak English, and have no history with the law? We have plenty of unskilled workers in the US already; including previous waves of immigrants.
   5683. Ron J2 Posted: April 25, 2013 at 10:24 AM (#4425469)
#5580 I was prepared to bet that the FBI would turn up with what I'd call the IRA defense (and still would not be surprised if this turns out to have been an issue)

Elder brother seems to have started out as a Chechen nationalist. As a group they're extremely violent but not anti-west (though there are those who hate the world for not helping in their time of need, and simply accepting things like the leveling of Grozny. But even these guys hate the Russians far worse than anybody else). The FBI's attitude to the IRA was essentially, our mandate is American domestic safety/security. Wouldn't at all surprise me to find that their attitude to Chechen is along that line. And that he hadn't moved on to radical Islam by the time they finished the cursory look at him.

I also wouldn't be at all surprised to find the fact that they're successful refugee claimant playing a role in this somehow. It's fairly tough to have a successful refugee claim into the US and I know that in other countries it's proven to be very difficult (legally that is) to get rid of problematic refugee claimants.

In accepting their claim (well their parents claim if you want to be technical) you've implicitly accepted that it's not likely to be safe to send them back to their home nation (there are treaties on refugees and I think the US has signed some of them).

I'm not at all clear how that squares with their father moving to Russia though.

   5684. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 25, 2013 at 10:32 AM (#4425481)
She's pretty, but I can't ever remember any male friend of mine including her on the list of people/celebrities they found to be "hot," even when she was a young actress.
She was hot. I mean, she still is, but she was, too. Not Amber Heard hot, but hot.
   5685. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: April 25, 2013 at 10:38 AM (#4425487)
Unskilled men with no college education who barely speak English and depended on the U.S. government for welfare? Toss in a few random run-ins with the law, and these are exactly the type of guys who you and Joe have argued should not be allowed in the United States. If I have a chip on my shoulders, it's only because people like you have argued so hard all my life that people like me should never have been here in the first place.

Their idea of "good" immigrants seem to boil down to a few select categories:

1A. Already wealthy, OR

1B. High level skills in professions where U.S. citizens are in short supply

2. English proficient from the moment they step off the boat**

3. All things being equal, preferably not Muslims

4. Willing to wait for citizenship until the Republican base is ready to grant it

The fact that all but the third provision would have disqualified the overwhelming majority of earlier immigrants from ever setting down roots here is something that either never seems to occur to them, or is discounted as somehow irrelevant to the 21st century.

**That restriction alone would have put the kibosh on the "clannish" Italian and Jewish waves of immigrants from the late 19th and early 20th centuries, not to mention the Germans who came here after 1848. But of course "that was different"---it's always "different".
   5686. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 25, 2013 at 10:40 AM (#4425489)
The fact that all but the third provision would have disqualified the overwhelming majority of earlier immigrants from ever setting down roots here is something that either never seems to occur to them, or is discounted as somehow irrelevant to the 21st century.

They are irrelevant. The US in the 19th century was a huge empty country with a very high demand for unskilled labor. That is no longer the case.

We already have an excess of unskilled and semi-skilled labor. There is zero point in bringing in more, except to provide constituents for the Democratic party and the welfare state.
   5687. The Good Face Posted: April 25, 2013 at 10:42 AM (#4425490)
Given there's a limit to the number of immigrants we can absorb, is that really the profile of immigrants you think we should be targeting for the good of the country as a whole?


Exactly right. We shouldn't import poverty; we grow plenty of that right here at home. Just because it works out sometimes is no reason to base policy on it. That's the kind of thinking that leads to people buying lottery tickets. As a site for "thinking fans", we should rely on data whenever possible, and the data says educated, skilled workers who are fluent in English are more successful than uneducated, unskilled workers who can't speak English.

She was hot. I mean, she still is, but she was, too. Not Amber Heard hot, but hot.


I wouldn't expect somebody from a criminal element to have good taste in women.
   5688. Greg K Posted: April 25, 2013 at 10:45 AM (#4425495)
I wouldn't expect somebody from a criminal element to have good taste in women.

Don't criminals usually associate with the most attractive women? Or has Hollywood been lying to me again.
   5689. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 25, 2013 at 10:52 AM (#4425501)
I wouldn't expect somebody from a criminal element to have good taste in women.
Awesome.
   5690. Lassus Posted: April 25, 2013 at 10:52 AM (#4425502)
While I find the "hot or not" threads pretty dull, I nevertheles feel compelled say that Paltrow in the backless dress in Iron Man was rather breathtaking.
   5691. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: April 25, 2013 at 10:55 AM (#4425505)
The fact that all but the third provision would have disqualified the overwhelming majority of earlier immigrants from ever setting down roots here is something that either never seems to occur to them, or is discounted as somehow irrelevant to the 21st century.

They are irrelevant. The US in the 19th century was a huge empty country with a very high demand for unskilled labor. That is no longer the case. We already have an excess of unskilled and semi-skilled labor. There is zero point in bringing in more, except to provide constituents for the Democratic party and the welfare state.


Then why just not follow your implicit economic argument and deport all of our existing unskilled jobless, or at least strip them of their citizenship and let them work temp jobs if and when the demand arises? I'd be more impressed with the consistency of your argument if you were arguing in favor of greater immigration when our unemployment levels were below 4%, as they were only a decade ago, but somehow I doubt that you were.

   5692. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: April 25, 2013 at 10:59 AM (#4425509)
As a site for "thinking fans", we should rely on data whenever possible, and the data says educated, skilled workers who are fluent in English are more successful than uneducated, unskilled workers who can't speak English.

So again, why were we letting all those Italians and Jews over here BITD? They were largely illiterate, bred like flies, and spread radical doctrines. What made them so special?
   5693. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 25, 2013 at 11:01 AM (#4425512)
Then why just not follow your implicit economic argument and deport all of our existing unskilled jobless, or at least strip them of their citizenship and let them work temp jobs if and when the demand arises? I'd be more impressed with the consistency of your argument if you were arguing in favor of greater immigration when our unemployment levels were below 4%, as they were only a decade ago, but somehow I doubt that you were.

Because they're citizens. Don't be stupid.

So again, why were we letting all those Italians and Jews over here BITD? They were largely illiterate, bred like flies, and spread radical doctrines. What made them so special?

When we needed lots of manual labor, language wasn't a big issue. Today, it is.
   5694. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: April 25, 2013 at 11:07 AM (#4425517)
Then why just not follow your implicit economic argument and deport all of our existing unskilled jobless, or at least strip them of their citizenship and let them work temp jobs if and when the demand arises? I'd be more impressed with the consistency of your argument if you were arguing in favor of greater immigration when our unemployment levels were below 4%, as they were only a decade ago, but somehow I doubt that you were.

Because they're citizens. Don't be stupid.


So were you preaching in favor of increased immigration back in 2002?

So again, why were we letting all those Italians and Jews over here BITD? They were largely illiterate, bred like flies, and spread radical doctrines. What made them so special?

When we needed lots of manual labor, language wasn't a big issue. Today, it is.


snapper, people can learn English. It's been done, and it's being done today.

And given that violent anarchists and gangsters were disproportionately Italian, and Communists were disproportionately Jewish, why were those groups allowed to immigrate as they were BITD, while Muslims today are seen as suspect because of their alleged ideology?

   5695. The Good Face Posted: April 25, 2013 at 11:18 AM (#4425528)
And given that violent anarchists and gangsters were disproportionately Italian, and Communists were disproportionately Jewish, why were those groups allowed to immigrate as they were BITD, while Muslims today are seen as suspect because of their alleged ideology?


I haven't seen anybody here make that argument. Muslims should be treated like every other prospective immigrant. Do they speak English? Are they educated? Do they have useful skills? Do they have a criminal record? Are they under suspicion for terrorist activities?

The bombing Borat family should have been kept out of the country because they were a lousy statistical bet, not because they were Muslim.
   5696. Morty Causa Posted: April 25, 2013 at 11:23 AM (#4425531)
   5697. Lassus Posted: April 25, 2013 at 11:25 AM (#4425534)
Do they speak English? Are they educated? Do they have useful skills? Do they have a criminal record? Are they under suspicion for terrorist activities? The bombing Borat family should have been kept out of the country because they were a lousy statistical bet, not because they were Muslim.

Isn't the point that at the time of emigration, the answers to all those were properly yes (and no)? Or did you mean "tossed out" instead of "kept out"?
   5698. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: April 25, 2013 at 11:27 AM (#4425535)
I haven't seen anybody here make that argument.


Boo, hoo.

Tell you what. You stop doing it, and we will. 'K?

Until then, I'll keep asking if you support Rand Paul's call for the death penalty without trial for petty theft.



   5699. Greg K Posted: April 25, 2013 at 11:31 AM (#4425539)
Ranking World Thinkers (as counterpoint to the Paltrow thread, or as Shaw once quibbled, "What if it had my beauty and your brains?")

Nate Silver at 16!

Niall Ferguson at 22 is also interesting. He's certainly one of the better known historians in the world. Not sure if that qualifies you as a "great thinker"...(though I suppose it helps in a vote on who is a great thinker).
   5700. The Good Face Posted: April 25, 2013 at 11:35 AM (#4425541)
Isn't the point that at the time of emigration, the answers to all those were properly yes (and no)? Or did you mean "tossed out" instead of "kept out"?


My understanding was that Mom & Pop were neither educated nor skilled workers. Not sure about their English, but the first two alone are good reason to keep them out. Sure enough, he couldn't find steady work, she wound up a petty criminal, and Borat the Elder wound up on welfare then sponged off his wife.
Page 57 of 66 pages ‹ First  < 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 >  Last ›

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
JE (Jason)
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogSpector: Stats incredible! Numbers from the 2014 MLB season will amaze you
(24 - 8:07pm, Sep 30)
Last: greenback calls it soccer

NewsblogAL WILD CARD GAME 2014 OMNICHATTER
(129 - 8:07pm, Sep 30)
Last: A triple short of the cycle

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 9-30-2014
(19 - 7:51pm, Sep 30)
Last: Leroy Kincaid

NewsblogThe Calm-Before-The-Storm and Postseason Prediction OMNICHATTER, 2014
(109 - 7:50pm, Sep 30)
Last: cardsfanboy

NewsblogThe Economist: The new market inefficiencies
(15 - 7:45pm, Sep 30)
Last: David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R)

NewsblogMLB’s Biggest Star Is 40 (And He Just Retired). That Could Be A Problem.
(73 - 7:37pm, Sep 30)
Last: cardsfanboy

NewsblogOT: Politics, September, 2014: ESPN honors Daily Worker sports editor Lester Rodney
(4071 - 7:17pm, Sep 30)
Last: Joey B. "disrespects the A"

NewsblogFangraphs/Cistulli: Post-trade WAR for deadline trades
(16 - 7:15pm, Sep 30)
Last: JE (Jason)

NewsblogBrown: Winners And Losers: MLB Attendance In 2014, Nearly 74 Million Through The Gate
(29 - 7:12pm, Sep 30)
Last: Robert in Manhattan Beach

NewsblogMadden: How dare the sabermetrics crowd and others try to diminish Derek Jeter’s greatness
(180 - 6:23pm, Sep 30)
Last: cardsfanboy

NewsblogOT: NFL/NHL thread
(8171 - 6:08pm, Sep 30)
Last: Commissioner Bud Black Beltre Hillman

NewsblogOT August 2014:  Wrassle Mania I
(266 - 5:47pm, Sep 30)
Last: NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!)

NewsblogOT: The Soccer Thread, September 2014
(454 - 5:37pm, Sep 30)
Last: ursus arctos

Hall of MeritMost Meritorious Player: 1959 Discussion
(3 - 5:12pm, Sep 30)
Last: EricC

Hall of MeritMost Meritorious Player: 1958 Ballot
(12 - 2:55pm, Sep 30)
Last: Mark Armour

Page rendered in 1.2466 seconds
52 querie(s) executed