Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Sunday, March 31, 2013

OTP: April 2013: Daily Caller: Baseball and the GOP: To rebrand the party, think like a sports fan

This week’s GOP autopsy report, commissioned by RNC Chairman Reince Priebus, is a great start in the much-needed task of rebranding the Republican Party. As the chairman acknowledged, “the way we communicate our principles isn’t resonating widely enough” and “we have to be more inclusive.” The report contains 219 recommendations to “connect people to our principles.” To achieve that goal, the party will need a strategic vision of how voters think about politics, which is something that the report lacks. For that, the GOP can learn a lot from another American passion: baseball.

This year, about 75 million Americans will go to the baseball stadium to watch a ballgame, about the same number as those who will vote in next year’s election. We rarely think about why someone becomes a baseball fan, or why they root for a certain team. Nor do we usually think about why someone chooses to vote for a certain political party. But it’s actually a very useful exercise.

When it comes to baseball, fan loyalty has almost nothing to do with the brain, and almost everything to do with the heart. In all of history, there’s never been a baseball fan who rooted for his team because it had the lowest ticket prices, or because it had the most taxpayer-friendly stadium deal, or because its players did the most community service. For the vast majority of Americans, rooting for a baseball team — not to mention, voting for a political party — isn’t really a rational choice; it’s more of a statement of personal identity — a statement telling the world, “This is who I am.” And for most people, defining “who I am” starts with family and community, before branching out into areas like race, age, gender, and class.

Family is pretty straightforward. If your mom and dad are Yankee fans, you’re almost certainly a Yankee fan. The same is true in politics. If your mom and dad are Republicans, you’re almost certainly a Republican.

Community is also pretty straightforward. If you grew up in, say, Philadelphia, chances are pretty great you’re a Phillies fan. Likewise, someone who grew up in Republican territory like, say, suburban Dallas or rural Indiana is much more likely to become a Republican than a nearly identical person from Seattle or Santa Fe.

Cities with more than one baseball team, like New York or Chicago, show revealing breakdowns by race and gender. The racial split in Chicago between Cubs fans on the North Side and White Sox fans on the South Side is well-documented. In New York, there’s an intriguing gender gap between Mets and Yankee fans, with women gravitating a lot more to the Yanks. While there’s a few theories out there trying to explain that, one obvious answer leaps out: Yankees heartthrob Derek Jeter.

In sports, as in politics, people’s convictions can’t be conveniently reduced to who their parents are or what they look like. But those things are an important foundation, upon which more rational sentiments come into being. Once you’re attached to your team on an emotional level — seeing them as a personal reflection of who you are and what you care about most — a rational exterior comes into being through phrases like “the Red Sox are the best team because they have the most heart” or “the Republicans are the best party because they know how to create jobs.”

Tripon Posted: March 31, 2013 at 10:52 AM | 6544 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 59 of 66 pages ‹ First  < 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 >  Last ›
   5801. Lassus Posted: April 26, 2013 at 10:15 AM (#4426173)
I've bit my tongue about it for months now

You've done WHAT?

I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul.


Good Face, you sound more like Glenn Beck every post.
   5802. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 26, 2013 at 10:18 AM (#4426175)
You've done WHAT?

I haven't said word one about Andy's relentless celebration of "The New America" and its changed demographics and its far greater propensity to look to sponge.

I've read and chuckled at how ridiculous it is, sure, but you can scour the archives and you won't find a word.
   5803. tshipman Posted: April 26, 2013 at 10:26 AM (#4426186)
Weirdest part about all of this:

Conservatives now think we should believe in the veracity of Russians without reservations.
   5804. JL Posted: April 26, 2013 at 10:32 AM (#4426193)
I had already corrected that, but congratulations on scoring a pedantic point.


I was not intended as a pedantic point, but rather to note that I looked for it and did not see it. Headlines are often not written by the author, so I don't take a lead from them as to the facts in a article.

LOL. Asking Russia for additional information about a person who was living in the U.S. now constitutes an "investigation"? (And you're not even quoting what the article actually said; you're talking about what it "suggested.") You've got to be kidding.


Not at all. The first two paragraphs of the USA Today article that you cited to support your position state:

The CIA submitted the name of one of the Boston Marathon bombing suspects for a terrorist watch list in fall 2011 after an inquiry about Tamerlan Tsarnaev from Russian authorities concerned about his possible ties to extremists, a U.S. intelligence official said Wednesday. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he is not authorized to discuss the case publicly.

The FBI had received a nearly identical request from the Russian government six months earlier, prompting a review of Tsarnaev's activities that turned up nothing improper, a federal law enforcement official said.


Sure sounds like there was a first investigation (or at least a review of his activities) that occurred before the CIA made its request.

As someone here asked on a different topic a few months ago, if your neighbor tells you your house is on fire, and then you ask him if it's your house or your garage but he doesn't get back to you, do you just shrug your shoulders and forget about it, or do you look into the original tip?


That is a terrible analogy. If your neighbor says your house is on fire, and you check it and see nothing, do you check it again if your brother says your neighbor told him your house was on fire?

Look, it may well be that this is all CYA by the different agencies. I tend to suspect something got dropped. But for goodness sake have a little pride in your work man. Your articles don't support you and in fact contradict you. Faced with that, you go straight to the insults. Weak sauce.
   5805. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 26, 2013 at 10:32 AM (#4426194)
Conservatives now think we should believe in the veracity of Russians without reservations.


And headlines. Don't forget the sanctity of headlines. If it's in a headline, it must be true.
   5806. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 26, 2013 at 10:36 AM (#4426196)
Look, it may well be that this is all CYA by the different agencies. I tend to suspect something got dropped. But for goodness sake have a little pride in your work man. Your articles don't support you and in fact contradict you. Faced with that, you go straight to the insults. Weak sauce.


That's the Joe game that I refuse to play anymore. At least this time he was on marginally firmer ground. He had a headline as evidence instead of nothing more than his own incredulity.
   5807. JL Posted: April 26, 2013 at 10:38 AM (#4426198)
So, being the fervent anti-communists you all are, why are you all supporting Putin and his cohorts in this instance? If you were given a tip by the Russian intelligence agencies, did an investigation, discovered nothing, asked for additional information and were ignored, wouldn't this be a red flag to you and relegate this case to the false lead trash bin? When you have likely hundreds of more promising leads to follow up on? No?


That certainly seems plausible to me. I suspect it would depend on what was found. If there was truly nothing, then I could see this. If there was a red-flag or two found (like maybe a shady friend or something), I would hope that they revisited it once or twice to see if there were any changes.
   5808. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: April 26, 2013 at 10:45 AM (#4426208)
I've bit my tongue about it for months now,

You should have kept biting it

There is no big demographic change in which a bunch more people look to government to give them ####

What there is, electorally, a group that already here, that's voting in larger numbers who vote against the Repubs for the primary reason a that they think the GOP is filled with a bunch of racists pieces of ####

My inlaws (asian not hispanic) have in the last 10-15 years pretty much all switched from voting GOP to voting Dem for that reason not because they look to government to give them ####

but you just all keep on thinking that and talking that- and all those dark skin types the Teapers think wanna mooch off them will continue to vote anti-Gop in larger and larger numbers, that's what's making the Andy's of the world giddy.
   5809. zenbitz Posted: April 26, 2013 at 10:56 AM (#4426216)
You could make a decent argument that because the U.S. is a free society, it suffer less attacks like these compared to other countries with overly harsh governments and restrictions. Just look at the IRA and the UK. Those attacks happen precisely because London didn't want to give up control of Ireland.
.

Conversely, since its the world hegemon and self appointed police force it draws more foreign ire.
   5810. zenbitz Posted: April 26, 2013 at 11:00 AM (#4426221)
@5751 is staggeringly apt. Although not sure if moon-pie idealistic pacifists go in "one (world) party state" or are their own shard


Description of the American right is left as a exercise to the reader. EDIT: or rather a couple posts down the thread
   5811. The Good Face Posted: April 26, 2013 at 11:07 AM (#4426231)
Weirdest part about all of this:

Conservatives now think we should believe in the veracity of Russians without reservations.


Why shouldn't they? Obama pushed the Reset Button to make everything better and fix all the boo-boos caused by that retarded genius, George W. Bush.

But really now, nobody says we should believe in the veracity of the Russians without reservations. But if they warn us about a particular individual, it doesn't hurt to maybe do a Google search or two. Check and see if he has a criminal record. If he's gainfully employed. Maybe use our vast security apparatus to keep on eye on him. It's not like Borat the Elder was a particularly high value guy to the US; to the contrary, deporting him wouldn't have been any kind of loss. Oh noes, teh Russians are trying to manipulate us into deporting a wife-beating welfare sponge! We must be forever vigilant against their tricksy machinations!

Personally, I think RonJ's earlier comment was probably accurate. The Russians warned us, the FBI took one look and said, "Chechen? Eh, if he's a problem, he's Russia's problem," and closed the file.
   5812. zenbitz Posted: April 26, 2013 at 11:09 AM (#4426234)
Without actually doing any research, it would not surprise me if the Democrat electorate was smarter than the Republican, but that the reverse was true for their elected representatives. I disqualify the creationists as that's based on philosophy.

At least I might believe that if I believed you could measure Intelligence.
   5813. The Good Face Posted: April 26, 2013 at 11:11 AM (#4426236)
Conversely, since its the world hegemon and self appointed police force it draws more foreign ire.


This is actually true. Whatever you think about its motives, USG pushes people and governments around. And when you push people, you shouldn't be surprised if eventually they start pushing back.
   5814. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: April 26, 2013 at 11:13 AM (#4426238)
I've bit my tongue about it for months now, but a big demographic change in which a bunch more people look to government to give them #### is nothing to celebrate, and your perpetual giddiness about it -- particularly in this economic climate -- is downright bizarre. Your attitudes are primarily those of the political hack, not the concerned citizen.


This is nothing new; it's been Andy's raison d'etre for as long as he's been posting here. He's not concered about the country, or even the people who live here; it's all about sticking it to his enemies. See my post in #5751 for an explanation of what drives the Andys of the world.


It doesn't take much to figure out what drives the Tea Party / Libertarian types who post this kind of drivel here, since it's identical to the same sort of rhetoric that fearful whites were using 50 years ago. They think that they're King Canute.

   5815. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 26, 2013 at 11:17 AM (#4426239)
Conversely, since its the world hegemon and self appointed police force it draws more foreign ire.

This is very true. Not only do we piss off the enemies of the people we choose to help, we piss off everyone we choose not to help, e.g. Chechens.

My belief is that we should have a very strong military, and almost never use it.

There are only 3 parts of the world where hegemony by a hostile power poses a serious threat to our national security: 1) Central and Eastern Europe; we can't let the former Warsaw Pact nations and SSRs fall under the sway of either Russia or Germany, 2) The southern and western coasts of the Persian Gulf; oil, 3) the East China Sea/South China Sea/Straits of Malacca sea corridor; dominates Asian trade, and protects out maritime Allies.

Besides those areas, our policy should basically be hands off.
   5816. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: April 26, 2013 at 11:18 AM (#4426240)
but you just all keep on thinking that and talking that- and all those dark skin types the Teapers think wanna mooch off them will continue to vote anti-Gop in larger and larger numbers, that's what's making the Andy's of the world giddy.

Not exactly giddy, but it is nice to see them (meaning the Republicans in general) apparently thinking that only white folks are paying attention to what they're saying.
   5817. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 26, 2013 at 11:18 AM (#4426242)
It doesn't take much to figure out what drives the Tea Party / Libertarian types who post this kind of drivel here, since it's identical to the same sort of rhetoric that fearful whites were using 50 years ago. They think that they're King Canute.

Did you see what that Juan Marichal did to John Roseboro the other day? Awful.
   5818. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 26, 2013 at 11:29 AM (#4426256)
Not exactly giddy, but it is nice to see them (meaning the Republicans in general) apparently thinking that only white folks are paying attention to what they're saying.

An environment in which non-whites see "racism" any time a white person says something bad about immigration is nothing to celebrate either, and your giddiness over that is also bizarre. Though understandable, since obsession with racial identity and the obsessive quest for "racism" and victim status is the type of polity in which your political views have the best chance of success.
   5819. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: April 26, 2013 at 12:38 PM (#4426309)
It doesn't take much to figure out what drives the Tea Party / Libertarian types who post this kind of drivel here, since it's identical to the same sort of rhetoric that fearful whites were using 50 years ago. They think that they're King Canute.

Did you see what that Juan Marichal did to John Roseboro the other day? Awful.


Cute, but the dire predictions of today about demographic changes are strikingly similar in tone to what was being said about the downfall of certain "ways of life" once blacks "forced themselves" into places they "weren't wanted". Not to mention the sort of apocalyptic visions that greeted the onslaught of Irish, Italians and Jews 100-odd years ago. The fact that you choose to ignore those similarities doesn't mean they don't exist.

Not exactly giddy, but it is nice to see them (meaning the Republicans in general) apparently thinking that only white folks are paying attention to what they're saying.

An environment in which non-whites see "racism" any time a white person says something bad about immigration is nothing to celebrate either,


When you use ethnic stereotypes about "government dependents" as part of your argument against immigration, don't be surprised if you get a reaction.

and your giddiness over that is also bizarre. Though understandable, since obsession with racial identity and the obsessive quest for "racism" and victim status is the type of polity in which your political views have the best chance of success.

The only "obsession" I see is your obsession with the idea that changing demographics are going to represent some sort of "loss" for our country, as if we haven't been undergoing one demographic change after another since the early 19th century. Even George W. Bush understood and welcomed this change, but for some reason you and snapper and Good Face seem threatened by it.

   5820. JL Posted: April 26, 2013 at 12:53 PM (#4426321)
Personally, I think RonJ's earlier comment was probably accurate. The Russians warned us, the FBI took one look and said, "Chechen? Eh, if he's a problem, he's Russia's problem," and closed the file.


Didn't the FBI do at least some checking initially? I thought they did some basic interviews and the like. My guess is once those didn't hit anything, they thought exactly what you wrote above and went on to what they considered more pressing issues.
   5821. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 26, 2013 at 02:09 PM (#4426363)
Perhaps so, but that doesn't speak to the point about the folly of writing off the Latino vote and concentrating your efforts solely on whites, which is what you were saying should be done in the aftermath of the Romney fiasco.

I don't recall saying the GOP should simply "write off" the Latino vote and make no effort to improve there; I do recall saying the GOP should prioritize the white vote, which I stand behind and which seems to be a more realistic path for short-term electoral improvement.

But again, all that's saying is that Latinos also support the health care bill. It certainly doesn't say that they don't care about immigration, or that the GOP isn't driving them away with their position on that subject. The first part of Plouffe's comment was this:

Andy, this is silly. Unless you're claiming with a straight face that the GOP should pass amnesty and move to the left of Democrats on healthcare and economic issues, I don't see how you're making any type of realistic point here. As Plouffe pointed out, Latinos are the biggest fans of Obamacare. That's all the GOP really needs to know when it comes to the GOP's near-term prospects with Latinos.

***
I've bit my tongue about it for months now, but a big demographic change in which a bunch more people look to government to give them #### is nothing to celebrate, and your perpetual giddiness about it -- particularly in this economic climate -- is downright bizarre. Your attitudes are primarily those of the political hack, not the concerned citizen.

Right, it's bizarre. I might understand it if Andy was a childless hippy who was 70 years old and didn't have to worry about the future, but he's always talking about a granddaughter or goddaughter who's in grade school. The vision he seems to have for America isn't the one that I'd be wishing for a little kid. Andy always dodges this when I ask him, but I'd love to know why he believes it's a good thing for the country that, due to the high levels of Third World immigration to the U.S., the average U.S. worker 20 years from now is projected to be less educated than the average worker of today.
   5822. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 26, 2013 at 02:27 PM (#4426378)
Sure sounds like there was a first investigation (or at least a review of his activities) that occurred before the CIA made its request.

The articles didn't explicitly say that, and as I recall, last week the FBI was denying the mother's claims that it had been investigating the older son for years.

Again, I hope there was an investigation, but when an article says, "no action was taken by any agency," that's a fairly strong and all-encompassing statement.

That is a terrible analogy. If your neighbor says your house is on fire, and you check it and see nothing, do you check it again if your brother says your neighbor told him your house was on fire?

Again, it's not clear that the FBI "checked it and [saw] nothing." The articles might "suggest" that, as you claimed, but I've seen no confirmation from the FBI on this, and I've seen plenty of stories that claim otherwise (i.e., that the FBI got a tip from the Russians; the FBI asked for more info., which didn't come; and then the FBI passed on putting the older brother on the watch list).

Look, it may well be that this is all CYA by the different agencies. I tend to suspect something got dropped. But for goodness sake have a little pride in your work man. Your articles don't support you and in fact contradict you.

Utter nonsense. The main article in question is the one I posted way back in #5656, the one whose headline includes the word "ignored" and whose story says "no action was taken by any agency." That's the article to which "Misirlou" immediately started objecting like crazy, accusing me of "scouring the net" to support some anti-FBI position that he imagined I hold. (As everyone here knows, I'm a right-winger. The idea that I'm anti-law enforcement is beyond absurd.)

Faced with that, you go straight to the insults. Weak sauce.

Huh? Please list the insults I've tossed at you during this exchange. I've done no such thing.
   5823. JL Posted: April 26, 2013 at 02:37 PM (#4426393)
Again, it's not clear that the FBI "checked it and [saw] nothing." The articles might "suggest" that, as you claimed, but I've seen no confirmation from the FBI on this, and I've seen plenty of stories that claim otherwise (i.e., that the FBI got a tip from the Russians; the FBI asked for more info., which didn't come; and then the FBI passed on putting the older brother on the watch list).


USA Today says the FBI looked into it, as I quoted.

Huh? Please list the insults I've tossed at you during this exchange. I've done no such thing.


Your statement that I was "incorrect at best or blatantly dishonest at worst" (on facts that you got wrong in your original post and even now are backing off) sure seems like an insult.
   5824. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 26, 2013 at 02:40 PM (#4426396)
Again, it's not clear that the FBI "checked it and [saw] nothing." The articles might "suggest" that, as you claimed, but I've seen no confirmation from the FBI on this, and I've seen plenty of stories that claim otherwise (i.e., that the FBI got a tip from the Russians; the FBI asked for more info., which didn't come; and then the FBI passed on putting the older brother on the watch list).


07:15 PM ET Russia asked U.S. twice to investigate Tamerlan Tsarnaev, official says

"The FBI investigated Tsarnaev based on the initial information from the Russians before concluding he was not a threat.

A senior U.S. official with direct knowledge of the information says "the issue with Russia is that the initial information was extremely thin."

You're hanging you hat on a headline which uses the word "ignore", and a poorly written article, which apparently carries a lot more weight with you than a direct quote from a "senior U.S. official with direct knowledge of the information."
   5825. Amit Posted: April 26, 2013 at 02:43 PM (#4426398)
FBI's official response, posted one week ago - FBI Statement

In response to this 2011 request, the FBI checked U.S. government databases and other information to look for such things as derogatory telephone communications, possible use of online sites associated with the promotion of radical activity, associations with other persons of interest, travel history and plans, and education history. The FBI also interviewed Tamerlan Tsarnaev and family members. The FBI did not find any terrorism activity, domestic or foreign, and those results were provided to the foreign government in the summer of 2011. The FBI requested but did not receive more specific or additional information from the foreign government
   5826. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 26, 2013 at 02:56 PM (#4426412)
In response to this 2011 request, the FBI checked U.S. government databases and other information to look for such things as derogatory telephone communications, possible use of online sites associated with the promotion of radical activity, associations with other persons of interest, travel history and plans, and education history. The FBI also interviewed Tamerlan Tsarnaev and family members. The FBI did not find any terrorism activity, domestic or foreign


Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence! Unknown unknowns! Take a bath hippies!
   5827. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 26, 2013 at 02:57 PM (#4426413)
Your statement that I was "incorrect at best or blatantly dishonest at worst" (on facts that you got wrong in your original post and even now are backing off) sure seems like an insult.

Absurd. The entire statement I made was:

Incorrect at best, blatantly dishonest at worst. The Daily News headline uses the word "ignored," and the story says that "no action was taken by any agency." It's unclear why you're inferring "no action" includes an investigation.

Which part of the second and third sentences is incorrect? And which facts "even now [am I] backing off" from?

The Daily News article is the one that set this whole discussion off, and the best you could get from the other two links I posted is that they "suggest" some sort of investigation occurred after the CIA contacted the FBI. Someone here is peddling "weak sauce," but it's not me.

***
A senior U.S. official with direct knowledge of the information says "the issue with Russia is that the initial information was extremely thin."

You're hanging you hat on a headline which uses the word "ignore", and a poorly written article, which apparently carries a lot more weight with you than a direct quote from a "senior U.S. official with direct knowledge of the information."

Wait, I thought you "refuse to play [this game] anymore" [#5606]?

Anyway, the link you just posted in #5824 is the same one you posted in #5657. As I said many comments ago, believe whichever story you want. I saw the Daily News story and I posted it here. That's it. This idea that I'm anti-FBI and "scouring the net" for things that fit my position is a massive delusion that exists only in your head.
   5828. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 26, 2013 at 03:05 PM (#4426419)
Again, it's not clear that the FBI "checked it and [saw] nothing." The articles might "suggest" that, as you claimed, but I've seen no confirmation from the FBI on this, and I've seen plenty of stories that claim otherwise


You have now, so I'm assuming you are going to shut up about this issue (of no investigation).

The Daily News headline uses the word "ignored," and the story says that "no action was taken by any agency." It's unclear why you're inferring "no action" includes an investigation.


Headlines, as you know, can be wildly misleading. Citing them as proof of anything is disingenuous at best, dishonest at worst. As for the text, it is either poorly written or deliberately vague. The no action quote leave a bunch of wiggle room. It certainly implies no action was ever taken by the FBI (we now know that to not be true), but it could also mean that no action was taken after the CIA contacted them. As I said, poorly written, or deliberately vague.
   5829. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 26, 2013 at 03:10 PM (#4426423)
Shameful librulbias from pointy-headed ivory-tower scientists - I've found it!:

Question 1: One of Sarah Palin’s notorious gaffes was her dismissal of “fruit fly research” — she thought it was absurd that the government actually funded science on flies. How would you explain to a congressman that basic research is important? I’m going to put two constraints on your answer: 1) It has to be comprehensible to Michele Bachmann, and 2) don’t take the shortcut of promising that which you may not deliver. That is, no “maybe it will cure cancer!” claims, but focus instead on why we should appreciate deeper knowledge of biology.


Shame! Shame!
   5830. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 26, 2013 at 03:13 PM (#4426427)
Headlines, as you know, can be wildly misleading. Citing them as proof of anything is disingenuous at best, dishonest at worst. As for the text, it is either poorly written or deliberately vague. The no action quote leave a bunch of wiggle room. It certainly implies no action was ever taken by the FBI (we now know that to not be true), but it could also mean that no action was taken after the CIA contacted them. As I said, poorly written, or deliberately vague.

I didn't cite only a headline as "proof of anything"; I cited a headline that used the word "ignored" that ran atop a story that said "no action was taken by any agency." As for that latter statement, I don't know why you keep referring to it as being "poorly written." It might have been an incorrect statement, but taken at face value, it's neither "vague" nor does it "leave a bunch of wiggle room."

It's obvious from recent discussions that you either don't understand or don't care about the plain meaning of words, but the phrase "no action was taken by any agency" doesn't leave much to the imagination unless one has a very overactive imagination.

This whole discussion has been inane. I saw a story and I posted it — without any comment — in #5656, and you went nuts, like some sort of FBI fanboy.
   5831. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: April 26, 2013 at 03:19 PM (#4426431)
Perhaps so, but that doesn't speak to the point about the folly of writing off the Latino vote and concentrating your efforts solely on whites, which is what you were saying should be done in the aftermath of the Romney fiasco.

I don't recall saying the GOP should simply "write off" the Latino vote and make no effort to improve there; I do recall saying the GOP should prioritize the white vote,


So what does "priotriz[ing] the white vote mean", other than appealing to anti-immigration sentiments? What other sort of programs are supposed to appeal to white voters as opposed to others?

which I stand behind and which seems to be a more realistic path for short-term electoral improvement.

And what about the long run, if the economy fails to crash and anti-immigration sentiment fades---as it's done in every previous wave of immigration. What's the next move for the GOP? To double down on whites who listen to Rush and promise gun stamps in place of food stamps?

I might understand it if Andy was a childless hippy who was 70 years old and didn't have to worry about the future, but he's always talking about a granddaughter or goddaughter who's in grade school. The vision he seems to have for America isn't the one that I'd be wishing for a little kid.

Our sixth grade goddaughter, attending the same DC public school that I did in the late 1950's, is so far advanced beyond what we were back then that it's beyond jawdropping. But then we didn't have an IBD program, so the gap is quite understandable. To the extent that she has problems with her school, it's due to overwork, not underwork.

Oh, and BTW the school is totally international in makeup, and 44% of the student body is black.

Andy always dodges this when I ask him, but I'd love to know why he believes it's a good thing for the country that, due to the high levels of Third World immigration to the U.S., the average U.S. worker 20 years from now is projected to be less educated than the average worker of today.

I wonder what the projections were for such things back when we were importing millions of illiterate European peasants who kept to themselves and spoke in indecipherable babble. Then and now, it's the same shortsighted view of humanity that never seems to lack for Chicken Littles like yourself. If they'd been listening to people like you 100 years ago, most of us here would still be somewhere over in Europe.
   5832. Ron J2 Posted: April 26, 2013 at 03:32 PM (#4426442)
On the subject of deportation and terrorism, there's an interesting situation going on right now in Canada. A couple of people have been arrested in a plot to derail some trains.

Turns out that there was an attempt to deport one of the suspects 9 years ago. There were "a string of criminal convictions" (fraud, uttering death threats and failure to comply with recognizance) and he was "working illegally".

Problem was that there was no place to deport him to. His mother was born in Saudi Arabia. His father in Jaffa (now part of Israel). He was born in the Abu Dhabi, but being born there does not confer citizenship. He's legally stateless -- something very uncommon these days.

For that matter, his parents' initial claim of refugee status was rejected, but they were allowed to stay because there was no place to send them back to.
   5833. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 26, 2013 at 03:36 PM (#4426446)
I've lost the thread and can't follow it today, so I'm sure this has been posted, but here's more evidence of why this lunatic shouldn't (to listen to liberals) have been watched by anyone, apparently:

BOSTON — The mother of the Boston Marathon bombing suspects was added to a federal terrorism database about 18 months before the attack, government officials said Thursday.

Two government officials said the CIA had Zubeidat Tsarnaeva’s name listed along with that of her son Tamerlan Tsarnaev after Russia contacted the agency in 2011 with concerns that the two were religious militants about to travel to Russia



Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/boston-bombing-suspects-mom-terrorism-database-officials-article-1.1328379#ixzz2RbFHJRm6
   5834. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 26, 2013 at 03:39 PM (#4426450)
So what does "priotriz[ing] the white vote mean", other than appealing to anti-immigration sentiments? What other sort of programs are supposed to appeal to white voters as opposed to others?

Good grief, Andy. "Appealing to anti-immigration sentiments" is the only way to appeal to white voters?

And what about the long run, if the economy fails to crash and anti-immigration sentiment fades---as it's done in every previous wave of immigration. What's the next move for the GOP? To double down on whites who listen to Rush and promise gun stamps in place of food stamps?

I reject the "long run" presumption that the GOP's share of the white vote has reached a ceiling and can only recede. As I've seen some sociologists point out, as racial or ethnic majorities start to decline, solidarity within such groups tends to increase, not decrease.

Regardless, in 2012, the GOP ran a super-rich Mormon candidate who implemented his own version of Obamacare a decade before Obama. It shouldn't be all that difficult for the GOP to come up with a candidate who better appeals to working-class people of all races and ethnicities, which wouldn't target whites but should disproportionately yield gains among whites based on what we know about Latinos' (and blacks') preferences vis-a-vis the size and scope of government. That was my point last fall, and it remains my point now.

Our sixth grade goddaughter, attending the same DC public school that I did in the late 1950's, is so far advanced beyond what we were back then that it's beyond jawdropping. But then we didn't have an IBD program, so the gap is quite understandable. To the extent that she has problems with her school, it's due to overwork, not underwork.

I'm glad she's doing well, but this is mostly non-responsive. How is it good for her if the U.S. has a less-educated populace in future decades, with millions of people essentially useless to an advanced economy, and with a large and growing segment of the population depending on her work to pay for their welfare, food stamps, disability, etc.?

I suppose, in a strict sense, it's good to be a smart, skilled person in a country full of people who are increasingly less smart and less skilled, but I'm not sure I'd actively root for the country to decline in such a manner just to increase my (or my kids') job prospects.

I wonder what the projections were for such things back when we were importing millions of illiterate European peasants who kept to themselves and spoke in indecipherable babble. Then and now, it's the same shortsighted view of humanity that never seems to lack for Chicken Littles like yourself. If they'd been listening to people like you 100 years ago, most of us here would still be somewhere over in Europe.

Again, non-responsive. We know what the educational trends have been. People weren't getting progressively less educated throughout the 20th century as they're projected to get in future decades. As you happily point out, Latinos are the fastest-growing segment of the U.S. population, but studies are showing third-generation Latinos with less educational attainment than second-generation Latinos. If you don't believe that's a problem, you have a very strange vision for the future of the country.
   5835. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: April 26, 2013 at 03:51 PM (#4426457)
It shouldn't be all that difficult for the GOP to come up with a candidate who better appeals to working-class people of all races and ethnicities,


There is a party that appeals to working-class people of all races and ethnicities, but it isn't the GOP.
   5836. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 26, 2013 at 03:53 PM (#4426461)
There is a party that appeals to working-class people of all races and ethnicities, but it isn't the GOP.


Indeed. It's the party of no-responsibility-or-accountability-if-you-are-not-successful-you-are-a-Victim-here-take-this-free-stuff-that-you-are-entitled-to-we-got-it-from-those-racists-or-bigots-or-coldhearted-people-who-are-responsible-for-your-lot-in-life-did-I-mention-racists?

That certainly ain't the GOP.
   5837. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 26, 2013 at 03:56 PM (#4426464)
There is a party that appeals to working-class people of all races and ethnicities, but it isn't the GOP.

You mean the party that's pushing amnesty at a time of ~8 percent unemployment and ~25 percent underemployment, and despite working-class wages having been stagnant for generations?

The modern Democrat party is the party of dependency, not the party of work. The fact that the Dems have stopped prioritizing the working class is precisely why an opportunity exists for the GOP. (I'm not confident the GOP leadership will be smart enough to seize that opportunity, but it exists.)
   5838. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: April 26, 2013 at 03:58 PM (#4426466)
here's more evidence of why this lunatic shouldn't (to listen to liberals) have been watched by anyone, apparently:


There are over half a million people in the "terror watch list". The FBI doesn't have the manpower to watch them all 24/7, or even a fraction of that (despite the name).

A useful article on the topic here.
   5839. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 26, 2013 at 04:01 PM (#4426471)
Indeed. It's the party of no-responsibility-or-accountability-if-you-are-not-successful-you-are-a-Victim-here-take-this-free-stuff-that-you-are-entitled-to-we-got-it-from-those-racists-or-bigots-or-coldhearted-people-who-are-responsible-for-your-lot-in-life-did-I-mention-racists?

Speaking of which ...

U.S. Opens Spigot After Farmers Claim Discrimination

In the winter of 2010, after a decade of defending the government against bias claims by Hispanic and female farmers, Justice Department lawyers seemed to have victory within their grasp.

Ever since the Clinton administration agreed in 1999 to make $50,000 payments to thousands of black farmers, the Hispanics and women had been clamoring in courtrooms and in Congress for the same deal. They argued, as the African-Americans had, that biased federal loan officers had systematically thwarted their attempts to borrow money to farm.

But a succession of courts — and finally the Supreme Court — had rebuffed their pleas. Instead of an army of potential claimants, the government faced just 91 plaintiffs. Those cases, the government lawyers figured, could be dispatched at limited cost.

They were wrong.

On the heels of the Supreme Court’s ruling, interviews and records show, the Obama administration’s political appointees at the Justice and Agriculture Departments engineered a stunning turnabout: they committed $1.33 billion to compensate not just the 91 plaintiffs but thousands of Hispanic and female farmers who had never claimed bias in court.

Free money! Come get your free money!
   5840. Ron J2 Posted: April 26, 2013 at 04:01 PM (#4426472)
Ray, did you even read the link you posted? Quoting now:

Being in the classified TIDE database does not automatically mean a person is suspected by the U.S. of terrorist activity and does not automatically subject someone to surveillance, security screening or travel restrictions.

I don't know what TIDE's purpose is, but it looks to me like somebody is laying the grounds to argue, "not my fault" (particularly since -- again quoting again -- The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly about the case.)

All in all it looks like more details on the "CIA asked FBI to investigate" story.
   5841. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 26, 2013 at 04:03 PM (#4426474)
There are over half a million people in the "terror watch list". The FBI doesn't have the manpower to watch them all 24/7, or even a fraction of that (despite the name).

Empirical evidence suggests Tamerlan Tsarnaev should have been a little higher than #500,000-and-something on that list.
   5842. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 26, 2013 at 04:07 PM (#4426476)
The modern Democrat party is the party of dependency


And they see everything through a prism of racism/sexism/bigotry, which is pretty much the antithesis of the colorblind society that was hoped for decades ago.

Again, that's what's so frustrating about the Marathon bombers to them; their typical tools are of no use to them, and they might actually have to argue on the merits. And we see how well that is working out for them. ("He was a stay at home dad ARE YOU AGAINST STAY AT HOME DADS OR MOMS WHAT WAS THE FBI SUPPOSED TO DO WERE THEY SUPPOSED TO WATCH A PERSON ON A WATCH LIST HEY THIS WAS ONLY RUSSIA AND THEIR INFORMATION THAT HE MIGHT BE AN ISLAMIC TERRORIST WASN'T SPECIFIC ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!!!")

Yet, a month before 9/11 Bush gets a pdb entitled "bin laden determined to strike in US" and Bush, armed with this granularly detailed information, should have thwarted the attack based on it.
   5843. The Good Face Posted: April 26, 2013 at 04:14 PM (#4426478)
The modern Democrat party is the party of dependency, not the party of work. The fact that the Dems have stopped prioritizing the working class is precisely why an opportunity exists for the GOP.


This is true. If the GOP weren't quite so stupid, they'd seize the opportunity to represent the middle and working classes by going populist. The Democrats will always have a stranglehold on the urban lumpenproles and the members of the Cathedral, but there aren't enough votes there to dominate national politics.

But alas, the GOP is like a slow-witted but loyal dog; once they've been bought they stay bought.
   5844. Ron J2 Posted: April 26, 2013 at 04:28 PM (#4426484)
Let me second the usefulness of the link in 5838.

   5845. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 26, 2013 at 04:28 PM (#4426485)
This is true. If the GOP weren't quite so stupid, they'd seize the opportunity to represent the middle and working classes by going populist. The Democrats will always have a stranglehold on the urban lumpenproles and the members of the Cathedral, but there aren't enough votes there to dominate national politics.

But alas, the GOP is like a slow-witted but loyal dog; once they've been bought they stay bought.


Yup, 100%. The Republicans keep slavishly doing the bidding of the top 0.1%, even though those people are as likely to support Democrats as Republicans.
   5846. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 26, 2013 at 04:32 PM (#4426487)
If the GOP weren't quite so stupid, they'd seize the opportunity to represent the middle and working classes by going populist.

This would be a winning coalition, which is why the current corporatist Republican and Democratic parties are so deeply engaged in the culture wars and the race-baiting to keep it from coalescing. Eventually, someone will successfully bring them together.

In a related note, the lack of commentary on the board about the Bangladesh factory building collapse, replete with sweatshop labor making goods for the likes of Wal-Mart and Benetton and representing the natural end-game of America's greedy consumerist, free-trade economy brought to you by the "elites" of both parties, is quite telling.
   5847. Rennie's Tenet Posted: April 26, 2013 at 04:46 PM (#4426494)
This may have been addressed upthread, but I think the TIDE list actually includes relatively few people who are actually in the United States. This Washington Post article from 2007 reported that less than 5% were US citizens:

Growth of TIDE list
   5848. Ron J2 Posted: April 26, 2013 at 04:52 PM (#4426496)
Another useful link in 5847. According to the article, "The bar for inclusion is low, and once someone is on the list, it is virtually impossible to get off it."

Meaning that getting on to TIDE is low signal.
   5849. Rennie's Tenet Posted: April 26, 2013 at 04:55 PM (#4426498)
Follow up: this 2008 TIDE Fact Sheet indicates that the less than 5% include both US citizens and permamnent residents:

TIDE Fact Sheet
   5850. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 26, 2013 at 05:11 PM (#4426506)
Another useful link in 5847. According to the article, "The bar for inclusion is low, and once someone is on the list, it is virtually impossible to get off it."

Meaning that getting on to TIDE is low signal.


But what is the point of all of this? That once Russia warned us of him, we shouldn't have bothered to listen?

That despite us being warned of him, we shouldn't have asked questions upon his return from a half-year trip to Dagestan during which his wife and child were left behind? We shouldn't have gotten serious about him?
   5851. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 26, 2013 at 05:20 PM (#4426509)
But what is the point of all of this? That once Russia warned us of him, we shouldn't have bothered to listen?

That despite us being warned of him, we shouldn't have asked questions upon his return from a half-year trip to Dagestan during which his wife and child were left behind? We shouldn't have gotten serious about him?

Right. Unless Ron J. believes the CIA added the older brother and his mother to the watch list because the son was a wife-beater and the mother a shoplifter, it's unclear what he's saying with his various replies above.

***
Back to the story posted in #5839, here's another quote:

“The Department of Agriculture admitted that it discriminated against every black person who walked into their offices,” he told the crowd. “They said we discriminated against them, but we didn’t keep a record. Hello? You don’t have to prove it.”

In fact, he boasted, he and his four siblings had all collected awards, and his sister had acquired another $50,000 on behalf of their dead father.

She cinched the claim, he said to a ripple of laughter, by asserting that her father had whispered on his deathbed, “I was discriminated against by U.S.D.A.”

“The judge has said since you all look alike, whichever one says he came into the office, that’s the one to pay — hint, hint,” he said. “There is no limit to the amount of money, and there is no limit to the amount of folks who can file.”

He closed with a rousing exhortation: “Let’s get the judge to go to work writing them checks! They have just opened the bank vault.”

The entire article has to be read to be believed. Tens of thousands of people are getting $50,000 checks just for claiming, without any proof or documentation whatsoever, that the government discriminated against them — and they're getting those checks after the government was on the verge of prevailing in court. It's a case study in how the government is way too big and way too inefficient.
   5852. Lassus Posted: April 26, 2013 at 05:31 PM (#4426515)
Yet, a month before 9/11 Bush gets a pdb entitled "bin laden determined to strike in US" and Bush, armed with this granularly detailed information, should have thwarted the attack based on it.

Maybe if you squint really hard, you can determine a difference between the Boston bombing and the 9/11 attack.
   5853. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 26, 2013 at 05:35 PM (#4426517)
It's a case study in how the government is way too big and way too inefficient.

You're too kind. It's a case study in lefties aiding and abetting bullshyte claims of discrimination to win votes.
   5854. Lassus Posted: April 26, 2013 at 05:45 PM (#4426521)
Here you go, guys - you want some DEMOCRAT PARTY (oh Joe, so clever) mockery? How about Harry Reid and a specific member of his staff getting absolutely eviscerated.
   5855. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 26, 2013 at 05:54 PM (#4426528)
Our sixth grade goddaughter, attending the same DC public school that I did in the late 1950's, is so far advanced beyond what we were back then that it's beyond jawdropping. But then we didn't have an IBD program, so the gap is quite understandable. To the extent that she has problems with her school, it's due to overwork, not underwork.

Congratulations, good for her! It would be great if she was representative of the DC Public School System, but we both know she isn't, unfortunately. DC ranks far below the national average in SAT scores and virtually every other measurement of educational achievement, although there may be a bit of progress in the last decade. Perhaps not enough that students like Andy's goddaughter stay in the DCPS beyond elementary school, but any improvement is to be cheered, even if it comes from the Charter Schools.
   5856. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: April 26, 2013 at 06:00 PM (#4426530)
Another useful link in 5847. According to the article, "The bar for inclusion is low, and once someone is on the list, it is virtually impossible to get off it."

Meaning that getting on to TIDE is low signal.

Browsing the internet for information on TIDE is suspicious behavior. You are now on the list. And you may never leave.
   5857. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: April 26, 2013 at 06:02 PM (#4426532)
This is true. If the GOP weren't quite so stupid, they'd seize the opportunity to represent the middle and working classes by going populist.


This would be a winning coalition, which is why the current corporatist Republican and Democratic parties are so deeply engaged in the culture wars and the race-baiting to keep it from coalescing. Eventually, someone will successfully bring them together.


Yup, 100%. The Republicans keep slavishly doing the bidding of the top 0.1%, even though those people are as likely to support Democrats as Republicans.


The current GOP exists to do the top 1%s bidding, the social conservative/teaper stuff is just there to cast a wider net

The odds of the GOP going populist is absolute zero (the odds of the Dems, going working class populist are about 1 in 1,000 or so)

If this is what you claim to want you'd either be starting/supporting a 3rd party or trying to change the Dems.
   5858. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: April 26, 2013 at 06:09 PM (#4426533)
A British friend of mine whose been in the States for a while likes to say about American politics that the Republican Party needs to trick people into voting against their own self interest to win, while the Democratic Party needs to trick people into voting against the country's best interest to win. With an increasingly narcissistic society and flagging patriotism, the Dems are clearly in prime position to dominate.
   5859. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 26, 2013 at 06:31 PM (#4426540)
The current GOP exists to do the top 1%s bidding, the social conservative/teaper stuff is just there to cast a wider net

The current Democratic party exists to do the top 1%'s bidding, the immigration/welfare stuff is just there to cast a wider net.

Edit: and in reality both of those should be 0.1%. The 99th %-ile income is around $300K. Those people have no real clout.

The 99.9%-ile is $1.6M, now you're getting to the people who call the shots.
   5860. Publius Publicola Posted: April 26, 2013 at 06:45 PM (#4426547)
DC ranks far below the national average in SAT scores and virtually every other measurement of educational achievement, although there may be a bit of progress in the last decade.


SAT scores are pretty misleading sometimes in instances where the demographics allow for a significant portion of the high achievers to opt out of the public school system, as happens in DC.

If everyone who lives in DC sent their kids to public school, they would look a whole lot better, both because the kids would be brighter and the people with clout would make sure of it.
   5861. Dan The Mediocre Posted: April 26, 2013 at 06:56 PM (#4426554)

But what is the point of all of this? That once Russia warned us of him, we shouldn't have bothered to listen?

That despite us being warned of him, we shouldn't have asked questions upon his return from a half-year trip to Dagestan during which his wife and child were left behind? We shouldn't have gotten serious about him?


We did follow up and we did ask questions. We asked Russia for more information and got nothing. What should we have done, illegally searched everything until something comes up in which we can charge him and deport him in spite of having no reason at the time to want to?
   5862. Publius Publicola Posted: April 26, 2013 at 06:59 PM (#4426559)
We shouldn't have gotten serious about him?


There was no reason to get serious about him. Ray, will you read the GD links so you can get your facts straight please?
   5863. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: April 26, 2013 at 07:00 PM (#4426560)
The current Democratic party exists to do the top 1%'s bidding,


No they do it because they're afraid not to, whereas doing such bidding is the very reason for the current GOP's existence.

Not much of a distinction given that the odds of either ceasing to act such way is very slim.

   5864. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 26, 2013 at 07:02 PM (#4426561)
We did follow up and we did ask questions. We asked Russia for more information and got nothing. What should we have done, illegally searched everything until something comes up in which we can charge him and deport him in spite of having no reason at the time to want to?

The FBI says it asked questions in March 2011, but apparently not after the summer 2011 CIA request. The business about asking Russia for more information is lame. No one has said anything about "illegally search[ing]" anything, but putting the guy on the watch list and maybe doing an occasional Google search might have been a good idea. Hell, despite apparently being warned by Russia that Tamerlan the Terrorist was planning to leave the U.S., it appears the FBI was unaware that he had gone to Dagestan for six months, allegedly because of a spelling error on his plane ticket.

***
There was no reason to get serious about him. Ray, will you read the GD links so you can get your facts straight please?

No reason to get serious about him? The Russians apparently told both the FBI and CIA that the guy was becoming radicalized and that he planned to leave the country because of various radical contacts he had made.
   5865. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: April 26, 2013 at 07:05 PM (#4426563)
What should we have done

close the borders and deport everyone with a funny last-name who wasn't born here
and then change the Constitution so we can deport those with funny last-names who were born here.

Of course this will only work if I have the final say on what is or is not a funny last-name.

Seriously, I'm not sure Id be taking the FBI's due diligence claims at face value right around now, seems to be me that they (and some other agencies) may be in full bureaucratic CYA mode right around now,



   5866. Publius Publicola Posted: April 26, 2013 at 07:08 PM (#4426564)
No one has said anything about "illegally search[ing]" anything, but putting the guy on the watch list and maybe doing an occasional Google search might have been a good idea.


Base on what exactly? A cryptic Russian request? That's all? Do you realize what a ########### of a precedent that would set? All Russia would have to do to #### over anybody on US soil, citizen or non-citizen, it wants is to put a request in to the FBI to follow up on someone they think is up to no good, without a single iota of validating evidence or documentation.
   5867. Amit Posted: April 26, 2013 at 07:13 PM (#4426569)
it appears the FBI was unaware that he had gone to Dagestan for six months, allegedly because of a spelling error on his plane ticket.
The article in #5838 states that the the government was aware that Tamerlan was going to Russia, despite the spelling error.

His flight reservation set off a security alert to customs authorities when he departed, Ms. Napolitano said, in spite of a “mismatch” in the spelling of his name on his airline ticket, his travel document and the passenger manifest of his flight. As a result of “redundancies” in the system, the error was detected, the secretary said, and “there was a ping on the outbound to customs.”

But when Mr. Tsarnaev returned, more than a year had gone by since the F.B.I. closed a background review of his possible links to extremist groups that had been requested by the Russian government in January 2011. It was determined that he posed no threat. The security alert “at that point was more than a year old and had expired,” Ms. Napolitano said.
   5868. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 26, 2013 at 07:14 PM (#4426570)
No they do it because they're afraid not to, whereas doing such bidding is the very reason for the current GOP's existence.

Not much of a distinction given that the odds of either ceasing to act such way is very slim.


Don't kid yourself. It's just the other half of the elite they cater to; the one who are socially liberal uber alles. They're rich enough thet they're willing to pay a few % extra in taxes so they can do whatever the hell they want w/o social opprobrium.
   5869. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 26, 2013 at 07:36 PM (#4426575)
Base on what exactly? A cryptic Russian request? That's all? Do you realize what a ########### of a precedent that would set? All Russia would have to do to #### over anybody on US soil, citizen or non-citizen, it wants is to put a request in to the FBI to follow up on someone they think is up to no good, without a single iota of validating evidence or documentation.

You're worried about precedent? According to various links above, there are over 500,000 people on one such watch list. Do you believe the government had even better information on all of them? If there are over 500,000 people out there who might be a bigger threat than Tamerlan Tsarnaev, we're in big trouble.

***
The article in #5838 states that the the government was aware that Tamerlan was going to Russia, despite the spelling error.

I'm not sure if that helps the FBI's case or hurts it. It seems unclear why the "security alert" would have expired while he was in the midst of a six-month trip to Dagestan, which is apparently a hotbed of Islamist activity. It seems like the longer he was there, the more the FBI and DHS should have wanted to talk to him (or at least investigate him) upon his return.
   5870. Amit Posted: April 26, 2013 at 07:52 PM (#4426582)
It seems unclear why the "security alert" would have expired while he was in the midst of a six-month trip to Dagestan, which is apparently a hotbed of Islamist activity.
Because the FBI had investigated him, and after one year, had found no real terrorist link, so it expired. And going to Dagestan is not really a red flag, since that is near his original home and he still has family living there.
   5871. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 26, 2013 at 08:09 PM (#4426594)
Because the FBI had investigated him, and after one year, had found no real terrorist link, so it expired. And going to Dagestan is not really a red flag, since that is near his original home and he still has family living there.

Going to Dagestan should have been a red flag after Russia specifically warned the U.S. that Tamerlan Tsarnaev might be becoming radicalized and was preparing to leave the country because of contacts he had made with radicals.

Beyond that, the article in #5838 is full of inconsistencies. It said the FBI could only investigate for 90 days, but it also said that Tamerlan's departure from the U.S. — which occurred in Jan. 2012, long after that 90-day window would have closed in 2011 — triggered "a ping on the outbound to Customs." Why would that have occurred if the file had already been closed without any negative info. and Tamerlan wasn't on a watch list? The article also says that a closed file couldn't be held against a person, but then it says DHS put a hold on Tamerlan's citizenship application anyway. It seems like there's a lot of conflicting info. flying around and that these agencies are in CYA mode.
   5872. Amit Posted: April 26, 2013 at 08:24 PM (#4426608)
Why would that have occurred if the file had already been closed without any negative info. and Tamerlan wasn't on a watch list?
Because even though the FBI had investigated and not found anything, his name had still been added to the TIDE list. That list is huge, over half a million names, and is much bigger than the list of active investigations. So he was flagged on both his international travel, and when he applied for citizenship, even though he was no longer part of an active FBI investigation.
   5873. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 26, 2013 at 08:31 PM (#4426618)
Because even though the FBI had investigated and not found anything, his name had still been added to the TIDE list. That list is huge, over half a million names, and is much bigger than the list of active investigations. So he was flagged on both his international travel, and when he applied for citizenship, even though he was no longer part of an active FBI investigation.

To what purpose? What's the point of having such lists if the government doesn't investigate a person who goes and does exactly what Russia said he was going to do — i.e., leave the United States and potentially meet with radical contacts he had made overseas? And if the law specifically disallows the government from holding a closed non-negative file against someone, on what legal basis did DHS put a hold on his citizenship application?

The whole sequence of events is odd. Russia advised the FBI that it should investigate Tamerlan in 2011, and the FBI apparently did so for a 90-day period, which ended with a non-negative file being closed. Months after that 90-day period ended, and apparently while still on welfare, Tamerlan did exactly what Russia said he was planning to do — travel overseas to Dagestan — which triggered a "ping on the outbound to Customs." But then, armed with the info. that Russia might have been right, the FBI and DHS did ... nothing upon Tamerlan's return some 6 months later.

Hindsight is 20/20 and all that, but it looks like someone whiffed somewhere.
   5874. BDC Posted: April 26, 2013 at 08:43 PM (#4426630)
change the Constitution so we can deport those with funny last-names who were born here

Not before A.J. Pierzynski has a chance to lead the Rangers to a World Championship, thank you very much.
   5875. Rennie's Tenet Posted: April 26, 2013 at 09:09 PM (#4426653)
It seems to me that if a file "pings" when someone leaves the country, then the ping should be answered upon return. Also, as shown above, the number of people on the TIDE list who are actually inside the US is a small fraction of the total on the list. Keeping tabs on their social media should be pretty easy.

   5876. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 26, 2013 at 09:49 PM (#4426686)
More on the Maryland prison debacle:
Four years ago, Maryland’s top corrections official vowed that a scandal at a state prison in Baltimore involving violent gang activity and corrupt guards was not widespread.

But this week, Gary D. Maynard, secretary of public safety and correctional services, found himself confronting a nearly identical crisis at a detention center next door, with 13 corrections officers charged with helping the same Black Guerilla Family gang launder money, have sex with guards and give orders to the street.

The activity was so brazen, the FBI said, that in addition to smuggling in cellphones and drugs, four guards became pregnant by a single detainee, and the names of 14 guards available for trysts were written on a jailhouse wall — along with prices for various sexual favors. [emphasis added]

The Governor of Maryland wants to run for President.
   5877. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: April 26, 2013 at 10:13 PM (#4426711)
It's obvious from recent discussions that you either don't understand or don't care about the plain meaning of words, but the phrase "no action was taken by any agency" doesn't leave much to the imagination unless one has a very overactive imagination.


What's vague and open to interpretation is what time period the "no action was taken" refers to. It may refer to both before and after the CIA made its request, , or it may just refer to after. Take this made up sentence:

"Kobe Bryant scored 47 points last night, his highest total in a playoff game since 2008 when he scored 54, in a game his team also lost." Did Kobe's team lose last night? Depends on what work the "also" is doing. It could mean they lost last night, and also lost in 2008. Or it could mean that in 2008 he scored 54 and they also lost.

Now take your link:

"The spy agency shared its concerns with the FBI, Homeland Security, the State Department and the National Counterterrorism Center, a U.S. intelligence official said Wednesday.

The FBI received identical information on Tsarnaev in March 2011, including possible travel plans, but no action was taken by any agency"

Was "no action was taken by any agency" referring to 2011, or just after "The spy agency shared its concerns with the FBI" It's poorly written, and open to interpretation.

   5878. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 26, 2013 at 10:53 PM (#4426745)
#5877 is what was once commonly referred to as "Clintonesque".
   5879. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 26, 2013 at 11:23 PM (#4426775)
The Governor of Maryland wants to run for President.

Every Governor wants to run for President.
   5880. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 26, 2013 at 11:36 PM (#4426788)
They're rich enough thet they're willing to pay a few % extra in taxes so they can do whatever the hell they want w/o social opprobrium.


I can't imagine what you mean here.
   5881. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 27, 2013 at 03:05 PM (#4427021)
Great editorial cartoon about West, Texas which I likely would have missed if it weren't for Rick Perry throwing a public fit about it. Oops, and thanks!
   5882. Mayor Blomberg Posted: April 27, 2013 at 05:01 PM (#4427102)
Gov. Goodhair's helpful like that.
   5883. Swoboda is freedom Posted: April 27, 2013 at 07:19 PM (#4427210)
BTW, I just finished reading The Last Gunfight, which someone had recommended here. Very good read. Someone also mentioned Battle Cry of Freedom, which I am reading now. Also very good. I don't remember who, but thanks for the recommendations.
   5884. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 27, 2013 at 09:44 PM (#4427246)
A British friend of mine whose been in the States for a while likes to say about American politics that the Republican Party needs to trick people into voting against their own self interest to win, while the Democratic Party needs to trick people into voting against the country's best interest to win. With an increasingly narcissistic society and flagging patriotism, the Dems are clearly in prime position to dominate.


I guess American friends don't have a monopoly on ignorance, then.
   5885. Steve Treder Posted: April 27, 2013 at 11:11 PM (#4427279)
I guess American friends don't have a monopoly on ignorance, then.

Agreed, that is one really dimwitted observation.
   5886. bobm Posted: April 27, 2013 at 11:28 PM (#4427285)
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/russia_caught_boston_bomber_mother_BqmHvvA8mnztmfsJXYSZjP

Russian authorities secretly recorded a telephone conversation in 2011 in which one of the Boston bombing suspects vaguely discussed jihad with his mother, officials said Saturday, days after the U.S. government finally received details about the call.

In another conversation, the mother of now-dead bombing suspect Tamerlan Tsarnaev was recorded talking to someone in southern Russia who is under FBI investigation in an unrelated case, officials said.

The conversations are significant because, had they been revealed earlier, they might have been enough evidence for the FBI to initiate a more thorough investigation of the Tsarnaev family. [...]

In early 2011, the Russian FSB internal security service intercepted a conversation between Tamerlan and his mother vaguely discussing jihad, according to U.S. officials who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the investigation with reporters.The two discussed the possibility of Tamerlan going to Palestine, but he told his mother he didn't speak the language there, according to the officials, who reviewed the information Russia shared with the U.S.

In a second call, Zubeidat Tsarnaeva spoke with a man in the Caucasus region of Russia who was under FBI investigation. Jacqueline Maguire, a spokeswoman for the FBI's Washington Field Office, where that investigation was based, declined to comment.There was no information in the conversation that suggested a plot inside the United States, officials said.

It was not immediately clear why Russian authorities didn't share more information at the time. It is not unusual for countries, including the U.S., to be cagey with foreign authorities about what intelligence is being collected.

   5887. Mayor Blomberg Posted: April 27, 2013 at 11:38 PM (#4427287)
I'll take a guess: FSB wanted to see where Tsarnayev would lead and assumed that his interest and area of activity was in their backyard, not the US. The Feds are cagey with local US police for similar reasons.
   5888. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 28, 2013 at 02:43 AM (#4427308)
Th
e conversations are significant because, had they been revealed earlier, they might have been enough evidence for the FBI to initiate a more thorough investigation of the Tsarnaev family. [...]


As TFA later suggests, why not give whatever details you have of these conversations to the FBI, assuming you really do want the fibbers to investigate Tsarnayev?

If 'speaking vaguely of jihad' is all you've got, that's probably not going to get it done, but I imagine half a dozen similar things might be revealing. You'd also have to figure that the Russians didn't pick that call of randomly. Why didn't they give more of a rationale for why they had him under surveillance?
   5889. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 28, 2013 at 06:54 AM (#4427312)
Speaking of which ...

U.S. Opens Spigot After Farmers Claim Discrimination

Free money! Come get your free money!
What's really disturbing about the story is that it's not news. The massive fraud in these settlements was discussed extensively quite some time ago... but because it was discussed on conservative sites (like Breitbart -- mentioned in the article), the liberal MSM deliberately chose to ignore it. Or, worse, pretended that it was a civil rights issue, in which the only question was how racist white people were and how much black people supposedly suffered.

The entire article has to be read to be believed. Tens of thousands of people are getting $50,000 checks just for claiming, without any proof or documentation whatsoever, that the government discriminated against them — and they're getting those checks after the government was on the verge of prevailing in court. It's a case study in how the government is way too big and way too inefficient.
No, it isn't. This wasn't the result of inefficiency; it was the result of racial politics. To be sure, Democratic OPM syndrome played a big role:
Justice Department lawyers worried about false claims. But the lawyer familiar with the Clinton administration’s stance said they had decided that “it was better to err on the side of giving money to people who might not qualify if they went through litigation than to deny money to people who actually deserve it.”
Of course they did, because it wasn't their money. Why not hand out taxpayer money to politically favored groups to buy their votes? In a real class action suit, people without evidence get token relief, at best. (And, in fact, to hold down payments, onerous evidentiary requirements are often imposed.) But here? Of course not.
   5890. Lassus Posted: April 28, 2013 at 07:27 AM (#4427315)
(like Breitbart -- mentioned in the article), the liberal MSM deliberately chose to ignore it.

So what you're saying is we should pay more attention to Breitbart?
   5891. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: April 28, 2013 at 08:41 AM (#4427319)
So Conan's set at the reeking mass of ethical bankruptcy that is the White House Correspondent's Association Dinner was pretty tame (but reasonably funny) but he did have one excellent zinger for Obama: "Your hair is so white, it could be a member of your Cabinet.”

He didn't mention Politico either, which was probably a good thing. But if I ever hosted one of those things, I'd spend the entire time just ripping on Politico and telling them to do the world a favor and put themselves out of business.
   5892. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: April 28, 2013 at 08:59 AM (#4427322)
Too late to edit, it seems, but wanted to add that Obama had excellent writers for his speech, and his delivery was really good. That's not a huge shock, considering how he's done at these types of things in the past, but it was very funny, and I'd imagine that'd be true even if you don't like the guy.

Back to our regularly scheduled circle jerk.
   5893. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: April 28, 2013 at 12:33 PM (#4427363)
In which we take all of the rightwingers suddenly concerned about civil liberties (excepting, naturally, the civil liberties of Chechan immigrants) and make them snuggle with Noam Chomsky.
   5894. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: April 28, 2013 at 12:34 PM (#4427364)
So what you're saying is we should pay more attention to Breitbart?


We should dig his fat ass corpse up and put it on a stick on a bridge or something.
   5895. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: April 28, 2013 at 01:26 PM (#4427384)
Justice Department lawyers worried about false claims. But the lawyer familiar with the Clinton administration’s stance said they had decided that “it was better to err on the side of giving money to people who might not qualify if they went through litigation than to deny money to people who actually deserve it.”


Of course they did, because it wasn't their money.


Please explain to the class how inverting that logic leads to a more just or moral outcome, Davy. That is to say, defend as more just than the logic of the Clinton admin stated above, the following:

"It is better to err on the side of denying money to people who actually deserve it than to risk giving money to people who might not qualify."

Please at least make a good faith attempt to do so without whinging off about "other people's money" as if that's an argument in and of itself.
   5896. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: April 28, 2013 at 02:09 PM (#4427411)
What's the point of having such lists if the government doesn't investigate a person who goes and does exactly what Russia said he was going to do — i.e., leave the United States and potentially meet with radical contacts he had made overseas?

So he did "exactly what Russia said he was going to do," which was "potentially" doing something. In other words, we don't know whether he did what Russia said he was going to do, we only know he might have.

It does sound like the FBI and/or CIA should have done more follow-up monitoring of Tamerlan post-2011, even if it was just a periodic Google search or an interview when he returned to the U.S. It's not at all clear that such actions would have prevented the bombing, but it seems relatively low cost compared to a lot of the "security theater" that we currently engage in.
   5897. Publius Publicola Posted: April 28, 2013 at 02:31 PM (#4427432)
Agreed, that is one really dimwitted observation.


Thirded. Like a less bellicose foreign policy and a more equitable economic system are against the country's interests.

Must be a Tory.
   5898. Publius Publicola Posted: April 28, 2013 at 02:36 PM (#4427441)
It does sound like the FBI and/or CIA should have done more follow-up monitoring of Tamerlan post-2011, even if it was just a periodic Google search or an interview when he returned to the U.S.


The same problem occurred before 9/11. There was a red flag sent up about islamic extremists taking commercial jet flying lessons but somehow the warning slipped through the cracks.

I don't see why the righties here are complaining. You want to pay less taxes and have a smaller government? You got exactly what you want, a smaller and less capable government with less resources to do the things you want them to do. You want them to do more? Good, ante up.
   5899. Mefisto Posted: April 28, 2013 at 02:49 PM (#4427453)
Please explain to the class how inverting that logic leads to a more just or moral outcome, Davy.


In the Orwellian world of glibertarians and movement conservatives, compensating the victims of racism is itself racist.
   5900. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 28, 2013 at 02:49 PM (#4427454)
So what you're saying is we should pay more attention to Breitbart?
Well, since he's dead, that would be pretty boring. Or scary, depending on what he's doing.

I think I was more saying that when a scandal is reported, it shouldn't be dismissed merely because you don't like the ideological priors of the reporter. You don't have to relay the reports if you don't want ("i.e., A website named Breitbart reports that..."), but you should at least check out the story. In this case, there was clear statistical evidence of fraud -- far more claims were being made than minority-owned farms had ever existed. And yet it was completely ignored, until after the fact. If the story had been that Bush political appointees at the DOJ, at the behest of GOP congressmen, were overruling the career lawyers and handing out massive monetary giveaways to, say, evangelical groups, it would have been front page news at the time, not after it was too late.
Page 59 of 66 pages ‹ First  < 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 >  Last ›

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Adam M
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogOT: Monthly NBA Thread- July 2014
(1034 - 3:12am, Jul 31)
Last: Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim

NewsblogCubs Acquire Felix Doubront
(48 - 2:57am, Jul 31)
Last: Norcan

NewsblogEric Chavez Retires
(31 - 2:49am, Jul 31)
Last: Wahoo Sam

NewsblogVICE: Baseball Erotica #1: John Smoltz and Tom Glavine
(11 - 2:19am, Jul 31)
Last: Petunia inquires about ponies

NewsblogSOE: Minor League Manhood - A first-hand account of masculine sports culture run amok.
(159 - 2:08am, Jul 31)
Last: Petunia inquires about ponies

NewsblogJULY 31 2014 OMNICHATTER/TRADE DEADLINE CHATTER
(2 - 2:05am, Jul 31)
Last: Mess with the Meat, you get the Wad!

NewsblogOT: The Soccer Thread July, 2014
(530 - 2:03am, Jul 31)
Last: Swedish Chef

NewsblogOMNICHATTER 7-30-2014
(45 - 1:30am, Jul 31)
Last: CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck

NewsblogRed Sox trade rumors: 'Very good chance' John Lackey and Jon Lester are traded - Over the Monster
(59 - 1:10am, Jul 31)
Last: SoSHially Unacceptable

NewsblogPosnanski: Hey, Rube: Phillies pay dearly for Amaro’s misguided loyalty
(23 - 1:04am, Jul 31)
Last: Ray (RDP)

Hall of MeritMost Meritorious Player: 1957 Discussion
(15 - 12:19am, Jul 31)
Last: MrC

NewsblogPosnanski: Four theories about Hall of Fame voting changes
(28 - 11:50pm, Jul 30)
Last: Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams)

Hall of MeritMost Meritorious Player: 1956 Ballot
(9 - 11:17pm, Jul 30)
Last: lieiam

NewsblogCameron: Why a July 31 trade deadline just doesn’t make sense anymore
(14 - 11:06pm, Jul 30)
Last: cardsfanboy

NewsblogOTP - July 2014: Republicans Lose To Democrats For Sixth Straight Year In Congressional Baseball Game
(3797 - 10:47pm, Jul 30)
Last: zonk

Page rendered in 1.2564 seconds
52 querie(s) executed