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Wednesday, November 21, 2007

Daily News: Conlin: Rollins’ winning numbers

bill1chair is no fan of billwinshare.

Despite his defensive contribution being backhanded by Red Sox front office stat man Bill James - baseball’s most influential cybergeek - the league’s managers and coaches awarded Rollins a Gold Glove.

Apparently, James decided that a Range Factor based on successful chances (putouts plus assists) times nine innings, divided by number of defensive innings played is more important than the result - for example, a friggin’ out. Despite his No. 3 fielding percentage of .985 (behind Troy Tulowitzki’s .987 and Omar Vizquel’s .986) Rollins rated No. 15 in the James Range Factor. Fortunately, the baseball men who vote for the Gold Gloves depend on what they see, not laptop science. Jose Reyes, a nimble windshield wiper, ranked No. 25 in RF.

Repoz Posted: November 21, 2007 at 01:21 PM | 40 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
Tags: awards, phillies

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1. Champions Table Posted: November 21, 2007 at 02:06 PM (#2622392)

So I guess the only thing to do is patiently wait for Conlin to die?

2. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: November 21, 2007 at 02:07 PM (#2622393)

Jose Reyes, a nimble windshield wiper

Writes the rusted-out bumper.

3. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama

Posted: November 21, 2007 at 02:14 PM (#2622396)

So I guess the only thing to do is patiently wait for Conlin to die?

I did send him an email shaming him for not keeping up with advances in analysis in the last 40 years in his profession. I doubt that shame works on Bill. Of course, I'm sure he knows what Range Factor represents and was just setting up a strawman.

4. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: November 21, 2007 at 02:18 PM (#2622400)

Fortunately, the baseball men who vote for the Gold Gloves depend on what they see, not laptop science.

Now would be the time for the multi-annual reminder of Palmeiro's GG in 1999.

5. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: November 21, 2007 at 03:19 PM (#2622448)

(putouts plus assists) times nine innings, divided by number of defensive innings played is more important than the result - for example, a friggin’ out.

silly me--I assumed that the result of a putout or an assist was a friggin' out

6. Bad Doctor Posted: November 21, 2007 at 03:39 PM (#2622464)

silly me--I assumed that the result of a putout or an assist was a friggin' out

You'd think the advanced defensive metrics would be immune from the usual laptop/mom's basement/pocket protector arguments because, being play-by-play based, you are required to watch the actual games to put them together. It's not advanced statistics, it's counting ... kinda like RBIs.

Of course, this assumes the person making the laptop/mom's basement/pocket protector jabs takes the time to inform himself of this fact, so never mind.

7. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: November 21, 2007 at 03:44 PM (#2622472)

the usual laptop/mom's basement/pocket protector arguments

you forgot spreadsheets and slide rules

8. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: November 21, 2007 at 03:50 PM (#2622479)

Fat, ugly, and stupid is an excellent way to go through life.

9. Dan Szymborski

Posted: November 21, 2007 at 03:55 PM (#2622485)

Now would be the time for the multi-annual reminder of Palmeiro's GG in 1999.

I think the Jeter gloves are worse than Palmeiro's - Palmeiro didn't play 1B much that year, but at least he didn't play 1B badly. A single bite of steak is an inadequate meal, but I'd take that over a plateload of crap.

10. John Lynch Posted: November 21, 2007 at 04:30 PM (#2622533)

What I don't understand is why people place such an emphasis on what one sees as opposed to the record of what one sees (statistics). Certainly, the eyes can inform where stats are misleading, but the converse is also true, perhaps more so. There are plenty of studies demonstrating the fallibility of human observation and memory. At least with (proper) statistics we can define our limitations.

Also, the range factor strawman pisses me off.

11. TVerik Posted: November 21, 2007 at 04:38 PM (#2622551)

Why do we always see columns like this from hometown newspapers after an MVP award? Sure, I would expect the Denver papers to be whining about how Holliday was robbed. But why can't Tampa papers, for example, feature columns about how great Rollins' season was and how baseball fans should pay more attention to this unique talent?

12. BDC

Posted: November 21, 2007 at 04:39 PM (#2622552)

nimble windshield wiper

If he had played in Montreal, Reyes would have been nicknamed "L'essuie-glace agile." As it is, in the DR they call him El Listo Limpiaparabrisas. His fame has spread to Europe, where you see headlines about Der flinksten Scheibenwischer.

13. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: November 21, 2007 at 05:31 PM (#2622647)

If he had played in Montreal, Reyes would have been nicknamed "L'essuie-glace agile." As it is, in the DR they call him El Listo Limpiaparabrisas. His fame has spread to Europe, where you see headlines about Der flinksten Scheibenwischer.

If he played in Porco Latinia, he'd be known as "Imblnae Indshieldwae Iperwae".

14. Chris Hansen, NBC Dateline Posted: November 21, 2007 at 05:38 PM (#2622660)

I think the Jeter gloves are worse than Palmeiro's - Palmeiro didn't play 1B much that year, but at least he didn't play 1B badly.

Those must have been the greatest 28 games ever fielded at first.

15. Cowboy Popup Posted: November 21, 2007 at 05:48 PM (#2622678)

A single bite of steak is an inadequate meal, but I'd take that over a plateload of crap.

Yeah, I don't know how I'm ever going to get the taste out of my mouth from '04 (when he rated above average) and '05 (when he rated average). God, just the thought of it makes me want to vomit.

16. AJM Posted: November 21, 2007 at 05:55 PM (#2622691)

Apparently, James decided that a Range Factor based on successful chances (putouts plus assists) times nine innings, divided by number of defensive innings played is more important than the result - for example, a friggin’ out. Despite his No. 3 fielding percentage of .985 (behind Troy Tulowitzki’s .987 and Omar Vizquel’s .986) Rollins rated No. 15 in the James Range Factor.

This has to be a joke, right? No person who made it past the 4th grade would think this is a good argument.

17. Oriole Tragic is totally awesome in the postseason Posted: November 21, 2007 at 06:02 PM (#2622703)

What is this Bill James backhand he's talking about?

And is James really "baseball’s most influential cybergeek," even now? I thought it would be Keith Law or MGL or D-Sizzle or somebody like that.

18. The District Attorney Posted: November 21, 2007 at 06:07 PM (#2622708)

I doubt that:

? Bill James is particularly "cybergeeky" at all, other than knowing what he needs to know about computers in order to do his job, like most people. Doesn't seem the type.
? Anyone considered Range Factor in their vote.
? Anyone -- keeping in mind that this award is voted on by managers and coaches -- considered any fielding stat other than errors/fielding percentage in their vote. (If the writers voted for it, then maybe Posnanski would have... that still woulda been about it.)

So several strawmen here, not only the strawman that James endorses Range Factor, but the strawmen that James -- or stats -- have any effect on this award at all.

Which, by the way, ROLLINS DID IN FACT WIN, YA BIG GOON.

19. BDC

Posted: November 21, 2007 at 06:10 PM (#2622711)

Apparently, Henry Chadwick decided that a Batting Average based on times at bat (divided into hits) is more important than the result -- for example, a freaking run scored. Despite his 139 runs scored, Rollins rated No. 21 in the Chadwick Batting Average.

20. Win one for Agrippa (haplo53) Posted: November 21, 2007 at 06:18 PM (#2622720)

Which, by the way, ROLLINS DID IN FACT WIN, YA BIG GOON.

Hey, he wouldn't be a Philadelphian if he couldn't feel his guy was being both recognized and ignored at the same time.

21. caspian88 Posted: November 21, 2007 at 06:22 PM (#2622728)

"No person who made it past the 4th grade would think this is a good argument."

You have a greater opinion of humanity than I do.

22. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama

Posted: November 21, 2007 at 06:32 PM (#2622742)

This has to be a joke, right? No person who made it past the 4th grade would think this is a good argument.

I've had a deliciously snarky email banter going on with Bill this morning. I won't copy it here but he pretty much will not take the bait on any questions about the appropriateness of the Range Factor argument and initially dismissed me as a "Cybergeek". Of which I am not, I can calculate BA, ERA, OBP and SLG but don't do RF, etc. I do read about them, try to understand how they work, read the analysis of those stats by those smarter and more energetic than me, however. Maybe if the snarkfest continues, I'll suggest that he can call me a "cybersycophant", but that calling me "cybergeek" insults Bill James, MGL, TangoTiger, et al.

23. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: November 21, 2007 at 06:35 PM (#2622746)

I won't copy it here

Copy it here

24. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: November 21, 2007 at 08:13 PM (#2622855)

Despite his 139 runs scored, Rollins rated No. 21 in the Chadwick Batting Average.

I just may call it the Chadwick Batting Average for the rest of my life.

25. Textbook Editor Posted: November 21, 2007 at 08:27 PM (#2622868)

Don't worry, Conlin and his ilk will die off within the next 20 years or so. Some around here have waited longer than that for a World Series title; certainly we all can wait out the 20 years or so it will take for senility or the grave to overtake Conlin, Plaschke, Mariotti, etc., etc. We'll be the ones with the last laugh.

26. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: November 21, 2007 at 08:28 PM (#2622869)

I just may call it the Chadwick Batting Average for the rest of my life.

get your abacus out of your papyrus and watch a game some time

27. John Lynch Posted: November 21, 2007 at 08:39 PM (#2622890)

get your abacus out of your papyrus and watch a game some time

Priceless.

28. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama

Posted: November 21, 2007 at 08:41 PM (#2622892)

Don't worry, Conlin and his ilk will die off within the next 20 years or so.

But some of us are too close in age to that ilk and will be stuck with them for most of the rest of our lives.

29. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama

Posted: November 21, 2007 at 08:45 PM (#2622897)

I just may call it the Chadwick Batting Average for the rest of my life.
get your abacus out of your papyrus and watch a game some time

Chisel us up 2 Primey tablets for these contributions.

Absolutely hilarious. Good thing our company coffee shop is closed today or I'd be a-wiping.

30. TVerik Posted: November 21, 2007 at 08:45 PM (#2622899)

Even on an anonymous baseball chat board, I personally think it's in bad taste to wish death on someone even as a joke, as #1 did pretty explicitly. Particularly since I'd imagine that Conlin has far more in common with most of us than is different.

I've heard multiple instances of him returning emails from us pretty quickly, as a point in his favor.

31. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: November 21, 2007 at 09:05 PM (#2622914)

So I guess if we want to make jokes like that, the only thing to do is patiently wait for TVerik to die?

32. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama

Posted: November 21, 2007 at 09:07 PM (#2622917)

I personally think it's in bad taste to wish death on someone even as a joke

He didn't exactly wish it on him, but your broader point is spot on.

I'd imagine that Conlin has far more in common with most of us than is different

Probably, but his shuttered mind is tough to get around

I've heard multiple instances of him returning emails from us pretty quickly, as a point in his favor.

Yep, I got a snarky one-liner addressing none of my concerns, calling me a cybergeek.

33. TVerik Posted: November 21, 2007 at 09:14 PM (#2622923)

No, you can and should make any point you want. But I call the right to invoke the Taste Police on it. I wish I had done so earlier in the day.

Mortality is a funny thing, but I know that I'd feel absolutely awful if I made an "awaiting" joke in public and he keeled over tomorrow.

34. Repoz

Posted: November 21, 2007 at 09:23 PM (#2622932)

Yep, I got a snarky one-liner addressing none of my concerns, calling me a cybergeek.

Yeah...that's Bill's m.o. and I kinda enjoy the banter I've had with him.

35. Shock Posted: November 21, 2007 at 09:32 PM (#2622948)

Cybergeeky nerd stat:

PO + A / IP

Real man's stat for those who watch games:

PO + A / PO + A + E

36. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: November 21, 2007 at 09:50 PM (#2622975)

get your abacus out of your papyrus and watch a game some time

To do so would be bad cuneiform.

37. TFTIO will now vomit at acceptable levels Posted: November 21, 2007 at 09:55 PM (#2622983)

Naw, it's not like CBA is as complex as something like Linear-B weights.

38. The Artist Posted: November 21, 2007 at 09:56 PM (#2622985)

Meh, Conlin is an ornery old fart - I'm not sure why we link to him. In time, his kind of idiocy will die out, and we'll move on.

39. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 21, 2007 at 10:24 PM (#2623006)

Meh, Conlin is an ornery old fart

He was exactly the same 25 years ago when he was an ornery young fart.

40. Worrierking Posted: November 21, 2007 at 11:05 PM (#2623033)

Conlin is one of those guys who seemed old, even when he wasn't.

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Daily News: Conlin: Rollins’ winning numbers

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