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Wednesday, April 16, 2014

Daniel Bryan’s ‘YES!’ chant has spread to the Pirates’ dugout

I once started an “Unpredictable! Unpredictable! Unpredictable!” Johnny Rodz chant after Clay Bellinger’s first career HR. Just never caught on.

The Pirates and Reds grappled in an absolute homerfest Monday in Cincinnati, launching an absurdly entertaining 10 long balls before rain halted the game after six innings. A half-dozen of those long balls came courtesy of Pittsburgh batters, leading the Bucs to adopt a new team celebration.

After years of the Dude, Where’s My Car-inspired Zoltan, the Pirates unveiled their homage to Daniel Bryan’s “YES! YES! YES!” chant following Neil Walker’s second home run of the evening.

 

Repoz Posted: April 16, 2014 at 12:48 PM | 316 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: pirates

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   101. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: April 20, 2014 at 10:35 AM (#4689558)
This thread is about professional wrestling? It's 100 posts long and it's about professional wrestling?
   102. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: April 20, 2014 at 12:57 PM (#4689633)
Not sure if this was a thing during his career or I'm just picking up on this due to the fact that I'm watching old PPV broadcasts on surround sound speakers but Mick Foley calls out a lot of the moves in his matches really loudly. I can regularly hear him directing his opponent "chair shot," "clothesline," :piledriver" etc.
   103. steagles Posted: April 20, 2014 at 01:32 PM (#4689655)
Not sure if this was a thing during his career or I'm just picking up on this due to the fact that I'm watching old PPV broadcasts on surround sound speakers but Mick Foley calls out a lot of the moves in his matches really loudly. I can regularly hear him directing his opponent "chair shot," "clothesline," :piledriver" etc.
does brodus clay still do that? (is brodus clay still around?) i haven't paid close attention to WWE since right around his debut, but i thought it was hilarious that he would yell all of his moves out to the arena as he did them.
   104. steagles Posted: April 20, 2014 at 01:47 PM (#4689658)
-I haven't thought about Taz in over a decade so I forgot that he debuted at Rumble '00. I think when this PPV initially happened I used to read 4wrestling.com and I had just kinda/sorta discovered ECW and thought Taz and RVD were the most amazing wrestlers ever. Taz's debut blew my mind back then and was still great now. The crowd gave a huge pop and he had a short but effective match with Angle that established his gimmick and gave a taste of what he could do in the ring. I'm pretty sure this is the highlight of his (wasted) WWF career though so that really sucks.
taz had some serious neck and back problems coming out of ECW and i think that had much more to do with his lackluster WWE career than him not being a WWE guy.
   105. Good cripple hitter Posted: April 20, 2014 at 01:47 PM (#4689659)
does brodus clay still do that? (is brodus clay still around?)


WWE ran an angle that broke up his tag team and introduced Xavier Woods as a new wrestler. This led to:

Clay getting demoted to NXT
Albert (his partner) getting demoted to doing commentary on NXT
Woods being a job guy / partner to R-Truth, who also is a job guy
   106. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: April 20, 2014 at 05:38 PM (#4689796)
Just read a bunch of different articles ranking the various portions of Wrestlemanias through the years because I finished Wrestlemania 2000/XVI and it left a terrible taste in my mouth. There were way too many matches on the card, most of which sucked other than the main event, the Jericho-Benoit-Angle match and the Triple Threat Ladder Match. While the main event didn't suck, the McMahon in Every Corner thing was stupid and unnecessary. Coming off of No Way Out, I was anticipating a HHH-Rock main event, which would have been sort of weird because they hadn't been directly feuding. Adding Big Show to anything makes it worse. And adding Foley and not having him go over there seems dickish. Would have been a hell of a moment. The match psychology also made no sense. Foley and Rock had just had their big Rock n Sock connection run and Foley and HHH just went through one of the most brutal feuds ever and Foley spent more time teaming up with HHH against the Rock than he did doing anything else in this match. Then...the finish. Just way too many turns in this era.

taz had some serious neck and back problems coming out of ECW and i think that had much more to do with his lackluster WWE career than him not being a WWE guy.

Fair, but I also just watched him have a 1 minute match at Wrestlemania against Prince Albert and The Big Boss Man, so...idk.

By the way, through Wrestlemania '00:

Hardy Boyz/Edge and Christian/Dudley Boyz Feud:
1. Hardy Boyz vs. Edge and Christian, No Mercy '99 Ladder Match
2. Hardy Boyz vs. Edge and Christian vs. Dudley Boyz, Wrestlemania 2000 Ladder Match
3. Hardy Boyz vs. Dudley Boyz, Royal Rumble '00 Table Match

Hell in a Cell (PPV):
1. Shawn Michaels vs. Undertaker, Badd Blood '97
2. HHH vs. Cactus Jack, No Way Out '00
3. Undertaker vs. Mankind, King of the Ring '98 (I had never watched this match outside of highlights and there really isn't much but the highlights. Insane spots and almost a non stop "holy ####\" match, but not much actually going on)
4. Undertaker vs. Big Boss Man, Wrestlemania XV (I would love to hear how/why this got booked and how/why it was plotted the way it was and how/why its finish was chosen/approved)
   107. PreservedFish Posted: April 20, 2014 at 05:40 PM (#4689797)
but Mick Foley calls out a lot of the moves in his matches really loudly. I can regularly hear him directing his opponent "chair shot," "clothesline," :piledriver" etc.


How much of each match is scripted vs improvised?
   108. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: April 20, 2014 at 05:53 PM (#4689812)
38.2% is scripted, 39.1% is loosely scripted , and the remaining 31% is improvised.
   109. Conor Posted: April 20, 2014 at 05:57 PM (#4689814)
How much of each match is scripted vs improvised?


I would say varies greatly depending on the guy. I believe I read that Undertaker/Lesnar were working their Mania match out before the show. The famous Steamboat/Savage match from WM 3 was supposed to be totally scripted. But a lot of the matches are called in the rings. Guys might have 2 or 3 big spots they know they're going to do before they get in there, plus the finish, but wing it from there. There was a Regal/Austin podcast from a few weeks ago I believe where Regal and Austin were basically kind of downgrading the Savage/Steamboat match (generally considered one of the best ever) because it was so scripted. I know DDP had this held against him as well.

-I've always been a Stone Cold guy, but The Rock has (more or less) been 1B for 15 months now and (in part due to staying healthier) is showing a lot more in-ring development. I feel like by the time I'm done with this I'm going to change into a Rock was the GOAT guy. He's unquestionably the best ever on the mic. Well, with the possible exception of Flair, so let's call that a tie.


I've thought about this some recently. Rock is, pretty clearly to me, the most charismatic guy on the mic ever. But I feel like sometimes he misses on translating that into a good wrestling promo, if that makes sense. His promos the last few years didn't necessarily make me more excited to see him face Cena. Compare him to Foley, for instance, who was a great promo but probably wasn't as gifted as Rock, but he'd cut promos that made me want to see his match.
   110. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: April 20, 2014 at 05:59 PM (#4689815)
How much of each match is scripted vs improvised?

IIRC (based on stuff I read 12-14 years ago) it depends on the individual wrestler. Certain guys are notorious for wanting to script their entire matches whereas other guys will just outline the big spots they want to hit and improv what takes place in between.
   111. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: April 20, 2014 at 06:03 PM (#4689816)
But I feel like sometimes he misses on translating that into a good wrestling promo, if that makes sense. His promos the last few years didn't necessarily make me more excited to see him face Cena. Compare him to Foley, for instance, who was a great promo but probably wasn't as gifted as Rock, but he'd cut promos that made me want to see his match.

I think that's fair. One of the things that stood out when I was watching the PPVs from '96 through late '97 was how awesome some of the stuff Mankind was doing on the mic and in terms of in-ring psychology but he was ahead of his time (the random yelps, the "Mommy!," etc.). If this had been Attitude Era I think it would have been appreciated but I think it just made people think he was strange/scary. He was going for strange/scary but not to the point of almost apathy/confusion.
   112. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: April 20, 2014 at 06:30 PM (#4689826)
"Random yelps" go way back. King Curtis. Bruiser Brody. Many others.
   113. andrewberg Posted: April 20, 2014 at 06:35 PM (#4689828)
I think a hallmark of the latter part of the Attitude Era was that Vince thought a little too highly of his own involvement in feuds and "control of the company" became a focus of too many angles. Austin and McMahon had great chemistry together and Vince has been a great on-air character for a long time, but he did not belong in every main event program, and once the owner is involved, it's hard to involve him in things outside of the main event. Also, since Vince wasn't a wrestler (other than special event cameos), it made the business more important than the title. In my opinion, the title has to be paramount because you otherwise lose all pretense of competition and wrestling loses its purpose. There was good stuff in the Corporation, Ministry, and McMahon-Helmsley angles, but since the results of the matches ultimately didn't dictate who "controlled" things, it became confusing what they were even fighting about.

Regarding Big Show- The best thing that ever happened to him was that he was the one guy who Eric Bischoff wouldn't give Ted Turner's money to. I remember reading in a book about the fall of WCW that he got in trouble for gaining so much weight by eating "massive amounts of pizza and milk." I will never forget that quote. He came over to WWE as the first guy who was a top guy in WCW to come back the other way, so he was more important for what he represented than for what he actually did in WWE. They paid him so much money that they basically had no choice but to keep him relevant and make him an institution. In about 15 years he has maybe had 5-10 moments that I have truly enjoyed.

I've thought about this some recently. Rock is, pretty clearly to me, the most charismatic guy on the mic ever. But I feel like sometimes he misses on translating that into a good wrestling promo, if that makes sense.


I agree with this. First of all, Flair, Dusty, Roberts, and Savage were all more effective wrestling promos from an earlier era than Rock (not to mention some of the great managers like Heenan and Blassie). Also, Rock's most recent run in WWE left me with such a bad taste in my mouth that I retroactively downgraded his first run. He had an incredibly short peak. From the time he got over in mid-98 to the time he started working a part time schedule to film movies was maybe three years.
   114. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: April 20, 2014 at 06:36 PM (#4689831)
"Random yelps" go way back. King Curtis. Bruiser Brody. Many others.

Never heard em yelp.
   115. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: April 20, 2014 at 06:45 PM (#4689835)
(What an awful link) he is yelping. You can't hear it, though.
   116. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: April 20, 2014 at 06:45 PM (#4689836)
He had an incredibly short peak. From the time he got over in mid-98 to the time he started working a part time schedule to film movies was maybe three years.

Watching all this old stuff has actually made me think Rock's peak was longer than I thought. It sounded/felt like he was really over from late '97 to early '98. By mid-late '98 they were going out of their way to try to find ways to make people boo him and yet every time he would ready The People's Elbow the crowd was going nuts and the camera flashes looked like McGwire-Sosa. I don't know/remember how long this is going to last, but since Austin has missed the last 4-5 months with injury it "feels" like The Rock has been The Guy for almost as long as Stone Cold.
   117. andrewberg Posted: April 20, 2014 at 06:49 PM (#4689841)
I think part of the problem is that I hold it against Rock that he left on his own while Austin left because he physically could not wrestle any more. Also, Austin won his first title at Wrestlemania XIV and had already had his huge moments at KOTR 96 and WM XIII against Bret Hart, and RR 97 by then. Rock had some good mid-card comedy bits and a handful of good matches, but he was still stuck in a bland program with Ken Shamrock at that point. Even with his injuries, Austin had his whole solid WCW run, his breakthrough period in ECW, and at least a great year in WWE before Rock sniffed the main event. I also preferred Austin's wrestling style because Rock's always seemed so cheesy that it took me out of the moment.
   118. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: April 20, 2014 at 07:08 PM (#4689852)
I haven't seen anything with Austin pre-1996 KOTR so you may be right. However, just as Rock was stuck with a lame Shamrock feud, here is what Austin did in the PPVs following KOTR '96 (in order):

1. vs. Marc Mero
2. curtain jerker vs. Yokozuna
3. Not on the card
4. curtain jerker vs. HHH

It wasn't until Survivor Series vs. Bret (PPV #5 after Austin 3:16) that you could really start to see what was about to happen.

Austin's post Owen breaking his neck wrestling style (granted, not his fault) isn't exactly great. Lou Thesz press, punch punch punch punch, mudhole stomp and Stunner. As a kid, there was nothing I hated more than The People's Elbow and it is still a really stupid move but The Rock also has a great looking spinebuster, a nice samoan drop, and an excellent DDT. What was cheesy (other than the elbow)?
   119. Conor Posted: April 20, 2014 at 07:32 PM (#4689867)
Watching all this old stuff has actually made me think Rock's peak was longer than I thought. It sounded/felt like he was really over from late '97 to early '98. By mid-late '98 they were going out of their way to try to find ways to make people boo him and yet every time he would ready The People's Elbow the crowd was going nuts and the camera flashes looked like McGwire-Sosa.


Interesting you say this; I've recently been reading some old Wrestling Observers starting in 97 and I just finished 1998. Rock won the title for the first time at Survivor Series 98; before that he wasn't really involved in the main event scene much (which was basically Austin/Foley/Taker/Kane plus Vince) but Meltzer kept talking about how ridiculously over the elbow was every time he went for it.

Austin was definitely not the same guy after he hurt his neck, which I can't blame him for, but I also think the style of the period (which may in part have been tailored to him) really emphasized brawling. I think every main event he did in 98/99 included brawling in the crowd. I remember him having some really good, less brawling based matches in 2001 with Benoit/Jericho/Angle.
   120. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: April 20, 2014 at 07:43 PM (#4689872)
I think every main event he did in 98/99 included brawling in the crowd

Fact.
   121. Conor Posted: April 20, 2014 at 07:45 PM (#4689874)
God bless you for watching those 99 PPV; I remember 15 year old me really struggled through some of them.
   122. andrewberg Posted: April 20, 2014 at 07:54 PM (#4689881)
Austin's post Owen breaking his neck wrestling style (granted, not his fault) isn't exactly great.


He definitely lost the ability to do a lot of the things that made people think he was technically strong as Stunning Steve. I would say that he was still pretty good in the style he was forced to wrestle given his physical limitations because he understood how to put together a match and he knew how to use how over he was to help his matches (you can say that about Rock as well). If we are judging these guys against their peers, I think the style of matches in the late 90s WWE was overall the worst style, other than maybe early 80s WWE, for which extensive video records still exist. They tried so hard to hold fans' attention that the matches became utterly incoherent, rushed, and dusty. If you judge Austin within that rubric, some of those matches were psychological masterpieces simply because they made some sense.

I remember him having some really good, less brawling based matches in 2001 with Benoit/Jericho/Angle.


I think that general principle gets underrated these days. People say that Cena is crap when he wrestles Ryback or any giant of the week. When he wrestles guys like Punk, Bryan, or Cesaro, he gets credit for being really solid. The same can be said of Orton (brilliant with Christian, awful with Big Show). With the amount of TV time and PPVs there are now, every big star is going to be at least a little overexposed and forced to wrestle guys who are not that athletic, not that creative, or both. Guys like Jericho and Christian who can get good matches out of EVERYONE are the ones who are the most amazing to me. That's also why Bret Hart and Ric Flair are two of my historical favorites.

As I type that, I am watching Jericho beat Rey Mysterio at Souled Out 98 with a Lion Tamer counter to a top rope hurricanrana.
   123. andrewberg Posted: April 20, 2014 at 07:55 PM (#4689882)
God bless you for watching those 99 PPV; I remember 15 year old me really struggled through some of them.


If he gets to the 99-00 WCW ones, I think we should send help.
   124. steagles Posted: April 20, 2014 at 07:58 PM (#4689889)
I think the style of matches in the late 90s WWE was overall the worst style, other than maybe early 80s WWE, for which extensive video records still exist.
ever heard of CZW?
   125. Conor Posted: April 20, 2014 at 08:02 PM (#4689892)
Yeah, I don't totally get the internet hate for Cena. I wouldn't say I like him, and when I go to shows, it is fun to play along and boo him, but I would say for the most part he has really good matches, and he's been involved in some fantastic matches in his career. He's had incredible matches with all 3 guys that you mentioned. (Cena-Bryan at Summerslam was probably better than any of the Orton-Bryan matches last year, and i think Orton would be generally considered a better worker)

Obviously WWF was never more popular than it was in 1998-2000 or so, but man, some of that stuff does not hold up at all. The wrestling in the company now is a million times better than it was then, on the whole.
   126. andrewberg Posted: April 20, 2014 at 08:07 PM (#4689896)
ever heard of CZW?


Ok, that is several tiers below what I mentioned. I was only referring to national(ish) promotions.

Yeah, I don't totally get the internet hate for Cena.


He can get a little repetitive and there was a stretch in the mid-00s where every feud was wildly predictable. Even now, there is a big difference between his Raw and PPV matches in quality and originality. Even with all of those criticisms, he's very good instead of great or legendary. The stuff with him and Punk in 11 was so unbelievably good that my greatest hope is that they get to have a Wrestlemania program and match at some point.
   127. Ron J Posted: April 20, 2014 at 08:19 PM (#4689904)
#87 Couture at that time was in a odd position. He had lost 3 straight at light-heavy and then returned to heavyweight and beat a fairly weak champion (Sylvia) and followed it up with a win over Gonzaga -- an underrated opponent (it was really supposed to be Kro Kop, but Gonzaga spoiled the party) but a good matchup for Couture.

But really Couture was probably the best matchup that Lesar could have asked for. His striking is generally underrated but was never likely to be a danger to Lesnar and Couture really didn't have the submission skills a smaller man needs for a man as powerful as Lesnar. Yeah it counts, but even i his prime Couture would have matched up poorly with Lesnar.

I'm actually most impressed by his win against Carwin. Yeah it was basically survive until Carwin ran out of gas. Not many could have taken the kind of punishment he did.

And the point about the weight limit is a good one. 265 is a tough target for Lesar.
   128. Canker Soriano Posted: April 20, 2014 at 09:07 PM (#4689934)
If he gets to the 99-00 WCW ones, I think we should send help.

My favorite thing about this era: 5 straight WCW heavyweight champions lost the belt without losing a match (3 strips, one injury, and one guy left the company). Then Kevin Nash just proclaimed himself the champion, but lost that same night in an actual match. Then the new champion was stripped again without losing a match.

Russo was out of his mind.
   129. A Fatty Cow That Need Two Seats Posted: April 20, 2014 at 09:17 PM (#4689943)
If he gets to the 99-00 WCW ones, I think we should send help.


I've linked to this before, but it's so great it's always worth mentioning again - WCW's Highway to Hell, one many's flirtation with insanity as he watches all of WCW (not just ppv) from January 1999 to the end.
   130. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: April 20, 2014 at 09:34 PM (#4689952)
I'm sticking to WWF PPVs for now. If I do anything else then it means this whole unemployment thing is going on much too long.
   131. Monty Posted: April 20, 2014 at 11:42 PM (#4690008)
Aw, I enjoyed the batshit craziness of late-era WCW. You'd get some really fun Cruiserweight action on Thunder, squeezed between the worst excesses Kevin Nash could think up.
   132. Monty Posted: April 21, 2014 at 12:15 AM (#4690013)
WCW's Highway to Hell, one many's flirtation with insanity as he watches all of WCW (not just ppv) from January 1999 to the end.


I love this.

This post has exactly what I'm talking about. One episode of Nitro had "Blitzkrieg & Juventud Guerrera & Psychosis vs Super Calo & Hector Garza & El Dandy," which is super-fun. But it also had "Bret Hart vs. Will Sasso (the fat guy from Mad TV)". This was on television!
   133. SouthSideRyan Posted: April 21, 2014 at 05:59 AM (#4690045)
Iirc that will sasso match had a random heel then by Debra wilson(the black chick on madtv) and her nipple accidentally popping out
   134. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 21, 2014 at 09:27 AM (#4690108)
I've linked to this before, but it's so great it's always worth mentioning again - WCW's Highway to Hell, one many's flirtation with insanity as he watches all of WCW (not just ppv) from January 1999 to the end.


I've been meaning to thank you for having posted that previously. I read through the whole series with a mixture of mirth and disgust. I was pretty well done with pro-wrestling and WCW by this period because it seemed like everything on TV insulted my intelligence (and not in a fun way, like Kevin Sullivan summoning the Purple Haze from the seas).
   135. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 21, 2014 at 09:30 AM (#4690112)
And the point about the weight limit is a good one. 265 is a tough target for Lesar.


A heavyweight weight limit is foolishness. There's a clear point of diminishing returns as fighters grow beyond 230-240lb or so. There's a reason why PRIDE Fighting Championship, which didn't insist on a 265lb weight limit for heavyweights, wasn't dominated by 300+lb lummoxes.

And of course the UFC Plantation makes matters worse by endorsing the heavyweight size limit and then completely disregarding any "superheavyweight" fighters at 265+, because the fighters at 265+ aren't very good. Notice the disconnect here?
   136. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 21, 2014 at 09:35 AM (#4690116)
#87 Couture at that time was in a odd position. He had lost 3 straight at light-heavy and then returned to heavyweight and beat a fairly weak champion (Sylvia) and followed it up with a win over Gonzaga -- an underrated opponent (it was really supposed to be Kro Kop, but Gonzaga spoiled the party) but a good matchup for Couture.

But really Couture was probably the best matchup that Lesar could have asked for. His striking is generally underrated but was never likely to be a danger to Lesnar and Couture really didn't have the submission skills a smaller man needs for a man as powerful as Lesnar. Yeah it counts, but even i his prime Couture would have matched up poorly with Lesnar.


OK, that's fair.

It always makes me sad that Tim Sylvia gets so little respect from MMA fans. Yeah, he wasn't a very strong technical fighter, he's kind of a goofball, and his conditioning isn't great, but Sylvia refusing to tap out against Mir and then pleading with the ref to let him keep fighting with an obviously broken arm is one of the more impressive displays of fighting spirit I've seen in MMA. How can you not like a guy like that, at least a little bit?
   137. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 21, 2014 at 09:38 AM (#4690119)
I don't have much to add to a wrestling thread, but I did hear this song over the weekend on the local college radio station, and it seemed like it belongs here.

Do the eye gouge, you turkey necks!
   138. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 21, 2014 at 10:11 AM (#4690155)
Meh, it's got a good beat and you can dance to it, but it doesn't have the timelessness of a classic like Pencil Neck Geek.
   139. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: April 21, 2014 at 04:28 PM (#4690498)
Just finished Judgment Day '00. The main event was a really good HHH-Rock Iron Man match, one month after a really good HHH-Rock main event at Backlash.

-I forgot how fun the Dudley Boyz were.
-Pretty much any/every match on the PPV has at least one wrestler who is super over at this point
-Latino Heat is so wildly offensive it's laughable. Eddie arrived at Backlash '00 with Chyna after she accompanied him to his HS prom, which he was able to go to because he recently received his GED. They arrived at the PPV in a low rider. Eddie had to dress out of his trunk because they were late.
-Jericho and Benoit at Backlash '00 was exceptional. Jericho-Benoit II at Judgment Day was really good but not quite the same.
-It's unbelievable to me that Val Venis is still a thing that is happening. Fortunately, Ken Shamrock appears to be gone.
-T&A has to be high on the list of least charismatic tag teams ever.
-Undertaker just made his American Bad Ass debut.
   140. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: April 21, 2014 at 04:53 PM (#4690516)
Also, lots of WWF New York live shots and XFL references the last couple months!
   141. Conor Posted: April 21, 2014 at 05:08 PM (#4690533)
Judgement Day and Backlash are 2 PPV that get great reviews that I never saw and always want to get around to watching, but don't.
   142. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: April 21, 2014 at 05:29 PM (#4690548)
Some of this stuff is starting to blur together but those are, IMO, pretty clearly the top 2 PPVs I've seen on this..."project." I started with KOTR '96 and am currently watching KOTR '00.

Also, I missed the whole Big Show wants to be funny gimmick the first time around.
   143. SouthSideRyan Posted: April 21, 2014 at 09:19 PM (#4690715)
I always found that HHH/Rock Iron Man match terribly overrated. While Bret/Shawn having 0 falls in an hour led to too slow of a pace, you go the other direction with this and it's a bit of an overbooked mess. 11 falls in an hour period? I get the era they were in, but it just seemed like an overbooked mess, especially considering how the last one happens.

You watch the Hart/HBK match and 40 minutes in you have 0 falls, and all of a sudden as a fan everything matters, 1 fall could be it, and you're on the edge for those 20 minutes. You look at HHH/Rock and you've got 5 falls at the 40:35 mark. There's no tension there, they've already told you there are going to be several more falls incoming.

Obviously Hart and Michaels of 96 are better workers than HHH and Rock of 2000, so they weren't going to be able to manage a 1-0 finish, but I think they went too far in the other direction.
   144. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: April 21, 2014 at 11:42 PM (#4690826)
[143] Having lots of falls makes more sense to me. If a match can (Typically) end in 15-25 minutes it makes sense that as guys keep going it gets easier to get falls, which is more or less what happened here. The only fall I remember really taking issue with was HHH's illogical use of the chair (unless you say well he was doing that to soften Rock up for later). That said, this is the first and only Iron Match I've ever watched and was just happy it didn't end up being boring, which is what I feared going in.
   145. Ron J2 Posted: April 22, 2014 at 10:44 AM (#4691021)
#136 I think Sylvia get discounted because he's a weak champion. Pretty fair striker but no ground game and didn't have the skills to keep the fight standing.
   146. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 22, 2014 at 11:11 AM (#4691048)
#136 I think Sylvia get discounted because he's a weak champion. Pretty fair striker but no ground game and didn't have the skills to keep the fight standing.


During Sylvia's championship reigns the entire UFC promotion was still ducking Fedor Emelianenko, the world's #1 heavyweight. It wasn't uncommon to hear UFC partisans claiming that Fedor was ducking Sylvia, cowed by Big Tim's mammoth size, reach, and knockout power, physical advantages that a small doughy Russian like Fedor couldn't hope to compete with.

Of course they did end up fighting a couple of years later and Fedor took all of 40 seconds to end that discussion, but it was a popular line of argumentation at the time.
   147. Ron J2 Posted: April 22, 2014 at 11:33 AM (#4691074)
#146 I think it was more a disagreement about contract terms than either side ducking. Not too different than the lengthy dispute between the UFC and Penn.

Of course Dana White has always been publicly dismissive of Emelianenko (probably initially for negotiation purposes, but more sustainable after his loss to Henderson). What's amusing is that he didn't change his, "Who has Fedor actually beat?" line of argument after his easy victory over (since dropped by the UFC) Sylvia.

IOW count White among the people who discount Sylvia.
   148. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 22, 2014 at 11:40 AM (#4691082)
#146 I think it was more a disagreement about contract terms than either side ducking.


The UFC is based on a Plantation economic model adopted from pro-wrestling. Part of the UFC standard contract included automatic contract extensions for beltholders, in perpetuity, as well as the usual array in insulting terms like fighters signing away the rights to their images for video games and such. Fedor Emelianenko was the undefeated #1 heavyweight in the world and wasn't interested in automatic contract renewals at the whims of a promotion located on the other side of the planet.

If the UFC wanted Emelianenko they could have offered him a simple deal for 2 or 3 fights and let it be. Instead they demanded indentured servitude. A proud man like Fedor was surprisingly uninterested in signing away the career he built, and he should be. The entire UFC promotion ducked the #1 heavyweight in the world for years, because it was built on the same economic model that allowed Hulk Hogan to avoid facing Ric Flair throughout the 80s.
   149. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: April 22, 2014 at 12:17 PM (#4691116)
My favorite thing about this era: 5 straight WCW heavyweight champions lost the belt without losing a match (3 strips, one injury, and one guy left the company).


Does that include David Arquette? I tried to stick with WCW, but when that happened, even I said "**** this"
   150. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 22, 2014 at 12:46 PM (#4691136)
No, Arquette's win was weeks later. Two of them.

Quickly followed by Ric Flair also being stripped of the title for no particular reason. And then shortly afterwards, Flair being handed the title by Kevin Nash, who'd stripped it off himself.

The Vince Russo championship run was four months after that. Shockingly, Russo lost the title by forfeit.

The legendary Hogan-Nash finger poke switch was months before the "five consecutive title abandonments" creativity.
   151. Ron J2 Posted: April 22, 2014 at 12:54 PM (#4691144)
#148 Oh I get what you're saying.

But the UFC would have been happy to have Emelianenko on their own terms. Emelianenko is far from the only elite fighter that they did not have due to Dana White and company's hard line in negotiations.

And in the end, they pretty much outlasted all of the important competition and pretty much got things their way.
   152. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: April 22, 2014 at 01:01 PM (#4691149)
Just finished Summerslam '00. The TLC match was fantastic, but otherwise I thought the PPV was underwhelming. For whatever reason over the last 5 PPVs, the "regular" ones have been awesome (Backlash, Judgment Day, Fully Loaded) and the signature ones (King of the Ring, Summerslam) have not. It was crazy watching the Summerslam '00 main event as Kurt Angle was pretty clearly concussed and yet still finished the match/angle.
   153. Canker Soriano Posted: April 22, 2014 at 01:04 PM (#4691152)
Gonfalon answered it, but yeah - that period of people just winning and then quitting or being stripped actually came between the two most notorious title changes (the finger poke of doom, and then the Arquette/Russo title reigns).

I think the most telling thing about late period WCW was that, when the WWE bought them out, they chose to let a lot of the wrestlers just sit at home rather than come wrestle. The contracts were so bad, it made more sense just to pay them than to bring them over and muck with what was (at the time) a promotion riding high. Which is too bad, because the Invasion angle could have been one for the ages if they had done it right (but that would have required a big ego step-back from Vince, and at that point, his roided up 55-year-old body was having none of that; he was going to bury everyone ever associated with WCW, and he had his extra big shovel out for the job).
   154. Canker Soriano Posted: April 22, 2014 at 01:12 PM (#4691161)
It was crazy watching the Summerslam '00 main event as Kurt Angle was pretty clearly concussed and yet still finished the match/angle.

Angle was still on the way up and absolutely abused his body to get to the top (though I think this was wasn't his fault IIRC - there was a table malfunction). He and Benoit seemed to do more self-inflicted harm to themselves than anyone at the time (well, I guess Foley as well, but he was just nuts).

I'm stunned that Angle is still walking around at this point with all of the neck problems he's had.
   155. andrewberg Posted: April 22, 2014 at 01:40 PM (#4691199)
(well, I guess Foley as well, but he was just nuts).


Foley claims that he was very particular about the bumps he would take. He recently said on Austin's podcast that he wouldn't ever take bumps on his head or neck, and that for the really big spots, he would leave it up to himself rather than letting someone "do" the spot to him (ie- jumping off the HIAC on his own). The result has been crazy injuries to his hips, knees, elbows, etc, but his neck is intact. He does have brain problems, though, as I don't think anyone understood the damage that direct head trauma would cause.
   156. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 22, 2014 at 01:52 PM (#4691222)
Foley claims that he was very particular about the bumps he would take. He recently said on Austin's podcast that he wouldn't ever take bumps on his head or neck, and that for the really big spots, he would leave it up to himself rather than letting someone "do" the spot to him


Vader powerbombs Cactus Jack on the concrete. (~3:10)

"Cactus Jack wrestled Vader on April 6, 1993, winning by count-out, but being severely beaten in the process. As a result, in the rematch with Vader on April 24, the two executed a dangerous spot to sell a storyline injury. Vader removed the protective mats at ringside and powerbombed Cactus onto the exposed concrete floor, causing a legitimate concussion and causing Foley to temporarily lose sensation in his left foot."

Vader was the best big man ever. You can see he was trying his best to protect Cactus Jack but damn, you'd have to be nuts to agree to a spot like that.
   157. Canker Soriano Posted: April 22, 2014 at 01:53 PM (#4691225)
He recently said on Austin's podcast that he wouldn't ever take bumps on his head or neck

I guess that doesn't count the dozen or so unprotected chair shots he took in that match against the Rock. He probably just doesn't remember them...

(Or maybe being hit with a chair isn't technically a bump. But that's still incredibly hard to watch, in the way that a bad blade job is. I'm thinking here Guerrero/Bradshaw from 2004 Judgment Day.)
   158. Good cripple hitter Posted: April 22, 2014 at 03:21 PM (#4691331)
Foley also repeatedly claimed that the fall through the cell was an unplanned spot.
   159. Conor Posted: April 22, 2014 at 04:04 PM (#4691391)
Foley also repeatedly claimed that the fall through the cell was an unplanned spot.


I've read that before; I've always wondered how they planned on getting down then. Then again, this was after he took the bump off the cell; I'm guessing he wasn't thinking straight.

He recently said on Austin's podcast that he wouldn't ever take bumps on his head or neck, and that for the really big spots


Was this recently? I don;'t think I caught that one. Austin had Heyman on last week for a two parter; I can't recommend it enough. He also says he's gonna have Vince and Taker on coming up.
   160. andrewberg Posted: April 22, 2014 at 04:37 PM (#4691419)

Was this recently? I don;'t think I caught that one. Austin had Heyman on last week for a two parter; I can't recommend it enough. He also says he's gonna have Vince and Taker on coming up.


Foley was about a month ago. The Heyman ones went on forever but there was a lot of good stuff in there. I was interested to hear about his non-wrestling ventures.
   161. andrewberg Posted: April 22, 2014 at 05:12 PM (#4691447)
I take that back, it was not on Austin's podcast, it was on the 3/19 episode of JR's podcast.
   162. steagles Posted: April 22, 2014 at 05:55 PM (#4691465)
I think the most telling thing about late period WCW was that, when the WWE bought them out, they chose to let a lot of the wrestlers just sit at home rather than come wrestle. The contracts were so bad, it made more sense just to pay them than to bring them over and muck with what was (at the time) a promotion riding high. Which is too bad, because the Invasion angle could have been one for the ages if they had done it right (but that would have required a big ego step-back from Vince, and at that point, his roided up 55-year-old body was having none of that; he was going to bury everyone ever associated with WCW, and he had his extra big shovel out for the job).
iirc, those contracts were with turner, not WCW, and when WWE bought WCW, they had the option of acquiring them or letting turner continue to pay them.

and the invasion storyline was never going to work.


also, i'd like to see the elimination chamber PPV moved to the summer and maybe a king of the ring or bragging rights style PPV moved to february so you don't lose any momentum going from the rumble to wrestlemania.
   163. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: April 22, 2014 at 07:03 PM (#4691514)
Kurt Angle vs. The Rock at No Mercy '00 was terrific.
   164. Select Storage Device Posted: April 22, 2014 at 07:28 PM (#4691530)
and the invasion storyline was never going to work.


Other than when it did. That badly malformed PPV is still one of the best buyrates WWE has ever done -- and especially so if you remove anything called "Wrestlemania" from the list.
   165. andrewberg Posted: April 22, 2014 at 07:44 PM (#4691537)
and the invasion storyline was never going to work.


I think it could have worked. Having Shane McMahon represent WCW when we were already suffering McMahon fatigue was a nail in the coffin. I think that was actually a bigger problem than the group of guys they brought in. If they had added one or two more big names (instead of having Austin and Angle defect) to the group of Booker T, DDP, Rob Van Dam, Tazz, Raven, and Kidman (plus the guys who were already in WWE at the time, like the Dudleys, Benoit, Eddie, Malenko), that would have been more than enough star power.
   166. A Fatty Cow That Need Two Seats Posted: April 22, 2014 at 08:17 PM (#4691555)
That badly malformed PPV is still one of the best buyrates WWE has ever done


I'm in the camp that believes the invasion idea was always going to be better in theory than in execution (both for booking purposes and audience appetite), but that incredible buyrate is always the wrinkle that blows the theory apart.
   167. steagles Posted: April 22, 2014 at 08:18 PM (#4691556)
I think it could have worked. Having Shane McMahon represent WCW when we were already suffering McMahon fatigue was a nail in the coffin. I think that was actually a bigger problem than the group of guys they brought in. If they had added one or two more big names (instead of having Austin and Angle defect) to the group of Booker T, DDP, Rob Van Dam, Tazz, Raven, and Kidman (plus the guys who were already in WWE at the time, like the Dudleys, Benoit, Eddie, Malenko), that would have been more than enough star power.
WCW was never going to come out on top, and vince would never let them look strong enough throughout the program to make the ultimate outcome interesting, because that might lend support to the argument that WCW was better than the WWE in the monday night wars.

ECW looking good is a different story because they were never a threat (of all the wrestlers you name, only booker, DDP and kidman weren't ECW alumni), but vince would have literally emasculated himself before doing anything to prop up the reputation of WCW.
   168. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: April 22, 2014 at 08:21 PM (#4691557)
At the time, was it a shock that the WWF so readily pushed Benoit to Main Event status? I was never much of a WCW fan, but I feel like he and Jericho were on a similar level in the WCW and while Jericho had a brief main event run (I just finished No Mercy '00) his current feud is with...X-Pac...and his biggest feud so far was with Chyna. Both guys are great in the ring (and undersized compared to Vince's normal standards) and Jericho is clearly more charismatic/better on the mic so I'm just surprised that Benoit has received a greater push thus far.
   169. Select Storage Device Posted: April 22, 2014 at 08:22 PM (#4691560)
Personal opinion is that it didn't need the star power. They shot the wad by having Shane show up on the last Nitro and giving everyone the sense that the rivalry was going to start right away. Vince's kids were a nice way to introduce conflict, but as everyone saw that included mostly uninteresting WCW talents, bad performers, Booker T, a couple great dudes from ECW, and then the nail in the coffin; adding WWE's own talent to offer legitimacy to the angle.

Everyone except Sting did eventually do a stint in WWE, and everyone would have benefited from that story meaning something more than it did. Especially DDP. No skin off my back. It only cost Vince money.
   170. Select Storage Device Posted: April 22, 2014 at 08:25 PM (#4691562)
At the time, was it a shock that the WWF so readily pushed Benoit to Main Event status?


Nope. It was "good wrestler makes good." Just like Eddy.

Jericho ends up with a similar narrative.
   171. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 22, 2014 at 09:54 PM (#4691622)
Part of it is that the reaction to getting Benoit, Malenko, Guerrero and Saturn was so instantaneous. You will never see a more frenzied crowd than the one watching this match (posted in two parts on YouTube). This took place one week after their arrival in WWF.
   172. Monty Posted: April 22, 2014 at 10:43 PM (#4691647)
Part of it is that the reaction to getting Benoit, Malenko, Guerrero and Saturn was so instantaneous. You will never see a more frenzied crowd than the one watching this match (posted in two parts on YouTube). This took place one week after their arrival in WWF.


Back in 2000, Wizards of the Coast (for whom I worked at the time) signed a deal with WCW to make a CCG called "WCW Nitro." Because I was the only wrestling fan they could find, I was given the job of picking out the art and naming some of the cards. You know, because it's important that "Rabbit punch" and "Sucker punch" both be accurate. So I got to fly to the Turner offices in Atlanta and flip through the official WCW pictures.

Now, because I was a big ol' Internet nerd, I loaded up the cards with all my favorite wrestlers. I even got them to approve putting La Parka on the "folding chair" card. Of course, that meant Benoit, Malenko, Guerrero, and Saturn were all over the cards. And then they all left the company, so I had to fly back down to Atlanta and pick new art for about a quarter of the set.
   173. andrewberg Posted: April 22, 2014 at 11:13 PM (#4691655)
It took awhile, but Jericho basically ended up with 3 distinct careers in wwe that were all as big as Benoit's title push. (Full disclosure, Jericho, Bret hart, and CM punk are my favorite wrestlers of my life).
   174. Random Transaction Generator Posted: April 22, 2014 at 11:21 PM (#4691657)
Just reading through the posts here, and I'm remembering a few things of my 3-4 year time watching WWF/WWE as an adult (opposed to the time I brieflywatched when I was a young teen, culminating with watching Andre the Giant vs Big John Studd live at Maple Leaf Gardens for the headlining event of that annual visit.):

- The Rock mic work was always so much fun (as a face and (even better) as a heel). He worked the crowd like no one else.
- Kurt Angle seemed to get better and better every time I saw him, both in the ring and on the mic. When he started doing comedic bits, he sold the straight-man stuff perfectly.
- I never really got into Austin, but I fully understood the power he could bring to the crowd pops. It's a shame he got handicapped with the "What!" crap at the end.
- Jericho was always a fave because of his Canadian background and his mic work. He just seemed to get stuck with crappy stories.
- I was so hyped for the "Invasion", and so disappointed on how it worked out. As I didn't watch WCW at all, I had no vested interest in these guys before they showed up, and Vince/WWE never gave me any reason to care after they did.

   175. SouthSideRyan Posted: April 22, 2014 at 11:25 PM (#4691660)
You're right on the contract situations steagles.

I know I'm in the IWC minority regarding he invasion but what I think killed it was the ECW involvement. The war was never Wwf vs wcw vs ECW. ECW was a niche promotion and had no business in the storyline. Vince really needed to bite the bullet and buyout and sign a couple marquee Wcw guys. Just adding flair(who debuted literally the day after the invasion ended), Steiner, and sting (along with the existing booker and ddp) gives you a 5 on 5 match with actual wcw guys of note. The problem is once bagwell/booker bombed HARD as their test run for a separate relaunched wcw they turned every wcw (and eventually "alliance" guy heel and it wasn't special anymore

The fans were willing to see nuance. Storm, Hugh morrus, booker, and ddp all got huge reactions for their run ins/debuts even with ddps asinine stalker angle. You built the dissension among team members with Jericho and rock, there's no reason you couldn't have run the same angle with Steiner costing team wcw the match and setting up Steiner as heel Vince's golden boy.
   176. steagles Posted: April 23, 2014 at 12:33 AM (#4691677)
I know I'm in the IWC minority regarding he invasion but what I think killed it was the ECW involvement. The war was never Wwf vs wcw vs ECW. ECW was a niche promotion and had no business in the storyline. Vince really needed to bite the bullet and buyout and sign a couple marquee Wcw guys. Just adding flair(who debuted literally the day after the invasion ended), Steiner, and sting (along with the existing booker and ddp) gives you a 5 on 5 match with actual wcw guys of note. The problem is once bagwell/booker bombed HARD as their test run for a separate relaunched wcw they turned every wcw (and eventually "alliance" guy heel and it wasn't special anymore
i think you're forgetting about vince's ego. it's nothing to him to put an ECW guy over, but he was never gonna let WCW look good.


also, steiner's a lunatic, and while i love the guy on the mic, deliberately putting him at the center of anything important is a terrible idea.
   177. SouthSideRyan Posted: April 23, 2014 at 06:30 AM (#4691718)
Steiner was just an example of giving Vince his WWF win without WCW looking like a joke. The match at Invasion had 2 WCW guys and 3 ECW guys. The match at Survivor Series had 1 WCW guy, 1 ECW guy, 2 WWF guys (1 of whom never appeared in WCW), and Shane friggin McMahon.

Within a year of the Invasion ending: Flair, Hogan, Hall, Nash, Mysterio, and Steiner would all debut. Just amazingly short-sighted.
   178. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:11 AM (#4691752)
#148 Oh I get what you're saying.

But the UFC would have been happy to have Emelianenko on their own terms.


Well sure, who wouldn't want to get anything on their own terms? And those terms were completely one-sided, better suited for fighters who were not, for example, the #1 heavyweight in the world.

Emelianenko is far from the only elite fighter that they did not have due to Dana White and company's hard line in negotiations.


And think about all the money they lost out on as a result. Fedor vs Randy Couture would have been huge. But of course the UFC's plantation economic model has been screwing fighters and fans for a decade now - in a real promotional environment we'd have had our long-demanded GSP vs Anderson Silva superfight and a rematch by now. The peanut wages Zuffa offers their fighters and the heavy-handed and one-sided nature of the contracts don't give much incentive to fighters to take big risks. Muhammad Ali got a $6 million guarantee in 1975, no UFC fighter has ever received guaranteed money anywhere close to that.

And in the end, they pretty much outlasted all of the important competition and pretty much got things their way.


The UFC's biggest stars are all gone - GSP, Brock Lesnar, and Anderson Silva. The most recent show from last weekend, broadcast on a major network and featuring a #1 contenders bout for a heavyweight title shot, drew the lowest ratings of any broadcast UFC since they since their contract with FOX. Here are their PPV buyrates confirming the promotions current lack of star power and waning fan interest. MMA is a naturally entertaining and thrilling sport, and Zuffa and their PR puppet Dana White have done their best to flush it down the drain. The fact that the promotion has used the last 7 or so years to promote Dana White as the face of the sport speaks for itself.
   179. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:40 PM (#4692524)
Just finished Armageddon '00

Hell in a Cell (PPV):
1. Shawn Michaels vs. Undertaker, Badd Blood '97
2. HHH vs. Cactus Jack, No Way Out '00
3. Undertaker vs. Mankind, King of the Ring '98 (I had never watched this match outside of highlights and there really isn't much but the highlights. Insane spots and almost a non stop "holy ####\" match, but not much actually going on)
4. HHH vs. Undertaker vs. The Rock vs. Stone Cold vs. Kurt Angle vs. Rikishi, Armageddon '00 (Just a complete mess with no memorable moments. Seemed like an excuse just to see how many guys they can have blade in one match)
5. Undertaker vs. Big Boss Man, Wrestlemania XV (I would love to hear how/why this got booked and how/why it was plotted the way it was and how/why its finish was chosen/approved)

PPV quality has really declined from the summer. It feels kind of like they know what they want to do for Wrestlemania and so they're placing guys in random/terrible feuds in order to pass the time until then. The most exciting thing has been Lita and Trish Stratus making women's wrestling actually interesting.
   180. andrewberg Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:49 PM (#4692543)
4. HHH vs. Undertaker vs. The Rock vs. Stone Cold vs. Kurt Angle vs. Rikishi, Armageddon '00 (Just a complete mess with no memorable moments. Seemed like an excuse just to see how many guys they can have blade in one match)


This match was a precursor to the Elimination Chamber, so it wasn't all bad.
   181. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:54 PM (#4692551)
The Dudley Boyz are so so so much fun. I forgot how over they were and about the whole "WHASSSSZZZAAAAAPPPP" thing. And Edge and Christian. Just a great time for the tag division.
   182. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 06:50 PM (#4692603)
Whoa. Benoit-Jericho Ladder Match at Royal Rumble '01. Might be my new favorite Benoit-Jericho match.
   183. steagles Posted: April 23, 2014 at 10:49 PM (#4692847)
The UFC's biggest stars are all gone - GSP, Brock Lesnar, and Anderson Silva. The most recent show from last weekend, broadcast on a major network and featuring a #1 contenders bout for a heavyweight title shot, drew the lowest ratings of any broadcast UFC since they since their contract with FOX. Here are their PPV buyrates confirming the promotions current lack of star power and waning fan interest. MMA is a naturally entertaining and thrilling sport, and Zuffa and their PR puppet Dana White have done their best to flush it down the drain. The fact that the promotion has used the last 7 or so years to promote Dana White as the face of the sport speaks for itself.
the UFC is overexposed right now, but the sport is in great shape.
   184. SouthSideRyan Posted: April 24, 2014 at 02:27 AM (#4692916)
That Michaels/UT Hell in a Cell match is my favorite match of all time, even with the run-in(walk-in?) finish. I can't imagine another HITC passing it. Their match the prior month that ended in a no-contest is one of my forgotten classics as well.
   185. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 03:07 AM (#4692919)
Is anyone here a big fan of the Royal Rumble? I know Bill Simmons has often mentioned as either his favorite or one of his favorite PPVs but I usually don't enjoy them. The rumble itself can be exciting, but since there are usually so many jobbers involved (At least through '01) it's a chore for me to sit through the first 55 or so minutes, other than an occasional high spot.
   186. SouthSideRyan Posted: April 24, 2014 at 03:35 AM (#4692920)
I like the Rumble because it's a good event to watch in a group. We do a random draw of numbers 1-30 and will do some sidebets based on eliminations, time in match, etc. Keeps you invested the entire match, and creates hilarious moments when one of your draws winds up as Bo Dallas.
   187. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 03:44 AM (#4692921)
[186] Yeah, that's the way he recommends watching it so maybe that's what I'm missing.
   188. SouthSideRyan Posted: April 24, 2014 at 04:32 AM (#4692922)
It's actually how I got back into it. A few friends that watched it in the Attitude Era got together to do it, and I passively stuck with it.
   189. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:28 AM (#4693003)
the UFC is overexposed right now, but the sport is in great shape.


The sport is in the worst shape it's been in a decade. Casual fan interest has plummeted to boxing-like levels - ask anyone to name any UFC champion they can think of. The Japanese MMA scene which once supported thriving and influential promotions as dissimilar as Pancrase, Shooto, RINGS, K-1, and PRIDE has dried up. The UFC has abandoned any pretense of operating as a sporting organization and openly functions as a "sports entertainment" enterprise with successful but dull fighters being cast out of their exclusive walled garden (Jake Shields,Jon Fitch,Yushin Okami, free disparaging comments from Dana White on your way out the door). Loud, obnoxious fighters who spout racist insults,commit fraud, and crib their interviews from pro-wrestlers can lose 4 out of their last 7 fights and be secure in their employment, because "sports entertainment".

The UFC wants to be the WWE. It has the same business model and the same promotional model. The only thing that saves the UFC is that fighting is entertaining, and the fighters are compelling athletes willing to fight for peanuts.
   190. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:58 PM (#4694082)
Just finished Wrestlemania X-7. I've never seen the main even before, it lived up to its hype. Definitely the best Austin-Rock match I've ever seen. I think I've read in some places that this is the best "modern" Wrestlemania, but I thought the overall card other than the main event, TLC2 and Angle-Benoit it wasn't that great.

Ranking Wrestlemanias I've actually watched:
1. XXX
2. X-Seven
3. 2000
4. XIV
5. 13
6. XV

EDIT: I think I've also reached the point with my viewing where other than maybe 1 or 2 matches seen on Youtube clips this will all be new material for me.
   191. Ron J2 Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:12 PM (#4694104)
#189 I'm a little surprised Fitch was dropped (though this has been rumored for some time) because he'd settled into a pretty clear role as gatekeeper -- the guy you have to beat to be an absolute top contender.

I'm also surprised that Jon Jones hasn't become a bankable star. Can't be (just) about his style -- GSP is as huge name and he hasn't had many recent stoppages. Can't be just about color -- Anderson Silva.
   192. andrewberg Posted: April 25, 2014 at 02:51 PM (#4694269)
I love the Royal Rumble so much. It is my favorite PPV of the year. I went to a Royal Rumble for my bachelor party.

NJ- I don't know if you have watched XX yet, but that one is up there with those others. It might be top 3. The only one I saw in person was XXVI, and that was pretty solid too.
   193. A Fatty Cow That Need Two Seats Posted: April 25, 2014 at 03:24 PM (#4694311)
Going back in your viewing a bit, but wanted to touch on WM XV, despite it being best for everyone if it's never spoken of again. As deep in the thralls of attitude-era sports entertainment as I unfortunately was in 1999, even I could recognize the inanity that was Vince Russo booking. This is a small thing, comparatively, but I'll never forget them switching Road Dogg and Billy Gunn in their matches, for no reason that I could tell. Memory may be failing, but when the two started wrestling singles matches, Road Dogg was an effective part of the hardcore scene, and Gunn had some storyline reason to be fighting Shamrock and Venis. Not that either match was going to steal the show (though with how that card played out, it wouldn't have taken much), but it just seemed completely nonsensical and served no end. But I guess you can say that about all my girls Russo booking. Anyway, those were difficult words to type, so let's check out these glorious sentences from the WM XV wiki:

When Road Dogg Jesse James and "Bad Ass" Billy Gunn lost the WWF Tag Team Championship to The Corporation, they tried their hand at singles wrestling for some time with Gunn failing in his attempts to win the WWF Intercontinental Championship, but Road Dogg becoming Hardcore Champion until an injury prevented him from honouring a championship match with Al Snow who ended up fighting himself, and then Bob Holly for the vacant belt at St. Valentine's Day Massacre: In Your House with the latter winning the title at the banks of the Mississippi River. When Road Dogg won the Intercontinental Championship on Raw is War Gunn fought Bob Holly (now Hardcore Holly) and won when Holly crashed into an ad-hoc announce table Jim Ross had constructed for his pirate broadcast of the show. Holly felt enraged that circumstances had conspired against him, while Snow still wanted another chance at the belt.
   194. SouthSideRyan Posted: April 25, 2014 at 04:03 PM (#4694350)
Ugh, the Ross as manager of Dr. Death angle. IIRC, Gunn botched that table bump pretty badly, dropping him out of a press slam on the edge of the table, might not have even broke it. Of course, it was a stupid bump to plan on a RAW anyway, and doubly so to have Billy Gunn be in charge of keeping it safe.
   195. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 25, 2014 at 04:06 PM (#4694356)
If I could only watch one WWE show per year, it would be the Royal Rumble. It's a rare Rumble event that doesn't have 8-10 funny moments, storyline teases, surprises, and acrobatic "not eliminated yet!" stunts.

And speaking of the last category, Kerry Von Erich (the Texas Tornado) was in a 1986 motorcycle accident that cost him his right foot. He wrestled with a prosthetic foot for the rest of his career. After joining the WWF, he was "eliminated" by the Undertaker in the 1991 Royal Rumble, and "eliminated" by Ric Flair in 1992. But that is complete bullshit, because the rules clearly state that BOTH feet must touch the floor. Texas Tornado: the true back-to-back undefeatable king of the Rumble.
   196. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: April 25, 2014 at 05:47 PM (#4694490)
[195] Currently reading Shoemaker's book and just finished the chapter discussing the Von Erichs.
   197. SouthSideRyan Posted: April 25, 2014 at 05:59 PM (#4694500)
Did Zach Gowen ever get a Rumble appearance? I wasn't watching then, but would have a passing knowledge of what was going on.
   198. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 25, 2014 at 06:34 PM (#4694521)
The sport is in the worst shape it's been in a decade. Casual fan interest has plummeted to boxing-like levels - ask anyone to name any UFC champion they can think of. The Japanese MMA scene which once supported thriving and influential promotions as dissimilar as Pancrase, Shooto, RINGS, K-1, and PRIDE has dried up. The UFC has abandoned any pretense of operating as a sporting organization and openly functions as a "sports entertainment" enterprise with successful but dull fighters being cast out of their exclusive walled garden (Jake Shields,Jon Fitch,Yushin Okami, free disparaging comments from Dana White on your way out the door). Loud, obnoxious fighters who spout racist insults,commit fraud, and crib their interviews from pro-wrestlers can lose 4 out of their last 7 fights and be secure in their employment, because "sports entertainment".

The UFC wants to be the WWE. It has the same business model and the same promotional model. The only thing that saves the UFC is that fighting is entertaining, and the fighters are compelling athletes willing to fight for peanuts.


Unfortunately, I can't really disagree with any of this.
   199. Canker Soriano Posted: April 26, 2014 at 08:17 PM (#4694986)
Ugh, the Ross as manager of Dr. Death angle.

It's still amazing to me that the WWF managed to screw up having Williams. Yes, he was nearing the end of his career, but he was only 38 and younger than some of the guys they're running out there now as main eventers. Williams was a massive star in Japan and had big runs in Mid-South. Sticking him in that stupid Brawl for All instead of just pushing him as a legit bad ass is tough to understand.

I assume, as with so many things back then, that it was Vince not wanting to shine the spotlight on guys who found fame elsewhere. He was always much more comfortable pushing guys who had been misused in other promotions, like Austin or Nash.
   200. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: April 27, 2014 at 06:15 PM (#4695459)
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