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Friday, October 19, 2012

Daugherty: How about Reds bring Josh Hamilton back?

Phew!...Herschel Daugherty directed a few episodes of The Time Tunnel…I thought this was just another one.

By the time he left here, traded to Texas for some kid pitcher with attitude issues, Josh Hamilton somehow had gone from thrill-a-minute heartwarmer to entitled eggshell. The Reds dealt him for Edinson Volquez, a trade that is just a few floors and a fast elevator from Manhattan-for-beads and Robinson-for-Pappas.

How about we bring him back?

Crazy, you say. Outrageous, risky, irresponsible and entirely unReds-like.

Perhaps. Especially the risky part.

But not entirely out of the question. You want a centerfielder? There’s your centerfielder.

The Reds could kick some Shane Victorino tires. Offer a few-year deal to bridge the Billy Hamilton gap. They could do their due diligence on Michael Bourn who, by the way, struck out 155 times in 2012. They could close their eyes, click their heels three times and believe that, sometime next summer, Billy Hamilton will be swirling and dancing in the big leagues. Given the success they had this year without any of those people, adding one of them would only improve the mix. You’d think.

What about Hamilton?

Repoz Posted: October 19, 2012 at 05:53 AM | 46 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: reds

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   1. Ok, Griffey's Dunn (Nothing Iffey About Griffey) Posted: October 19, 2012 at 06:46 AM (#4276392)
As a Reds fan, I have thought about this some already. I think I would go for it, but, never would I put him in centerfield. He'd be my Ryan Ludwick replacement and then hope Billy is ready to step in sometime in 2013.
   2. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: October 19, 2012 at 06:50 AM (#4276393)
it has some appeal but the reds already have a fair amount of lefty power

rare case of a team needing right handed sock
   3. Honkie Kong Posted: October 19, 2012 at 07:28 AM (#4276399)
rare case of a team needing right handed sock


Braves have been searching for rh power for 5+ years now. No prospects and uggla has been underwhelming.

Man it's hard quoting on an ipad
   4. TDF, situational idiot Posted: October 19, 2012 at 09:06 AM (#4276429)
Much as I love Hamilton, I don't think it makes sense:

1. He isn't a CF any more, so he doesn't solve that problem.
2. As Harveys said, with Votto and Bruce they don't really need another big LH bat.
3. He's had more than 550 PA 3 times in his 6 year career; twice he's played fewer than 100 games.
4. Someone's going to offer him $18-20M/yr for 6 years. Of that great starting pitching the Reds had this year, 2 are 1st-year arb eligible this year and another is next year; in addition, Bruce, Votto, and Cueto start making real money soon. Unless there's a new, significant revenue stream we don't know about, I don't think the Reds want to get to $120-130M in payroll.
5. If Daugherty is supporting it, it has to be a horrible idea.
   5. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: October 19, 2012 at 09:10 AM (#4276434)
tdf

point 5 is pretty funny
   6. JE (Jason) Posted: October 19, 2012 at 09:11 AM (#4276437)
They could do their due diligence on Michael Bourn who, by the way, struck out 155 times in 2012.

A guy who describes Bourn in that fashion is probably not someone who should be dishing out advice on player acquisitions.
   7. BDC Posted: October 19, 2012 at 09:15 AM (#4276439)
Does anyone else dislike the phrase "due diligence" as much as I do? It seems to come pre-loaded with its own irony; you hear that due diligence has been done on somebody (as #6 notes) and you figure, yeah, they looked at the first Google result for his name and asked their brother-in-law if they'd ever heard of him.
   8. Ok, Griffey's Dunn (Nothing Iffey About Griffey) Posted: October 19, 2012 at 09:46 AM (#4276462)
it has some appeal but the reds already have a fair amount of lefty power


I know they are the two best bats in the lineup, but, Votto and Bruce are, I think, going to be the only 2 lefty bats on the Reds entire 40-man roster. They need some kind of lefty or switch-hitting bat somewhere in the lineup.

edit: ok, the Reds right now have Xavier Paul and Didi Gregorius as left-handed bats on the 40-man roster also.
   9. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: October 19, 2012 at 09:46 AM (#4276463)
This is one of the rare cases where I think chemistry makes a difference. Hamilton ####### his way out of town due to the firing of Jerry Narron (and by default his brother Johnny, who was close with Hamilton) and reported feuds with Griffey, Dunn, and Phillips. Only Phillips remains obviously, but I wonder how well Hamilton will fit in a clubhouse where Votto is clearly the lion. That and the injury issues, not to mention what will be an outrageous price tag, would give me considerable pause.
   10. Ok, Griffey's Dunn (Nothing Iffey About Griffey) Posted: October 19, 2012 at 09:58 AM (#4276474)
Only Phillips remains obviously, but I wonder how well Hamilton will fit in a clubhouse where Votto is clearly the lion.


Isn't this why you have Dusty Baker as manager though? The Reds certainly aren't keeping him for his creative lineups.

Obviously, I wouldn't just back up the armored truck and dump $25 mil a year on him or anything, but, if he could be had at the right price...

And, of course, if the Reds were to get Hamilton, Dusty would bat Votto, Hamilton, Bruce 3-5-7 so he can "split of the lefties". Maybe a right-handed power bat is the way to go for them.
   11. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: October 19, 2012 at 10:02 AM (#4276476)
The Reds are signing Youkilis, right?
   12. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: October 19, 2012 at 10:07 AM (#4276479)
i wish hamilton would have photos posted on the internet showing him crazy drunk with strippers followed him by him going into rehab and his agent looking for a marked down deal.

the crew ain't finding any pitching so might as well go from leading the nl in runs scored to leading by a lot and making an offense that is more capable away from miller park

put hamilton in right for hard and that lefty bat and the crew might have something.

but at a 100 million that ain't happening
   13. Tom Nawrocki Posted: October 19, 2012 at 10:11 AM (#4276481)
I'd love to see him in right field for the Rockies. But that ain't happening either.
   14. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: October 19, 2012 at 10:14 AM (#4276487)
tom

my two cents is if hamilton got out of centerfield and in the national league he would bust out at even greater whooping stick

   15. Tom Nawrocki Posted: October 19, 2012 at 10:20 AM (#4276494)
Fowler CF
C. Gonzalez LF
Tulowitzki SS
J. Hamilton RF
Helton/Cuddyer 1B
Rosario C
Rutledge 2B
Pacheco 3B

That's a contender, isn't it? At any rate, the Rockies would have the best outfield in the league.

Make it happen, Giambino!
   16. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: October 19, 2012 at 10:22 AM (#4276497)
tom

um, what about the pitching??

   17. zonk Posted: October 19, 2012 at 10:23 AM (#4276500)
How about the Cubs bring Hamilton back?

Man... I still wonder if that 2008 team would disappeared in the playoffs if Hamilton hadn't been just given away back in 2006. Figure they probably don't pick up TOFU, who was excellent of course -- or heck, maybe they do and Fukudome becomes the 4th OF subbing all over.

Ehhh... I suppose Wrigleyville isn't the right place for Josh anyway.
   18. Tom Nawrocki Posted: October 19, 2012 at 10:29 AM (#4276509)

um, what about the pitching??


Pomeranz-Chacin-Nicasio-Francis-de la Rosa should be able to hold its own, with Alex White, Tyler Chatwood and Christian Friedrich waiting in AAA. It's not especially good, but at least there's some depth for whoever falls apart.

Even without Hamilton, I expect them to be back around .500 next year. There's still a lot of young talent here.
   19. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: October 19, 2012 at 10:31 AM (#4276513)
zonk

if theo wasn't signing prince i don't see how he ponies up for hamilton

fielder was much lower risk all the way around. and with fielder that's a big around.

ha, ha.
   20. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) Posted: October 19, 2012 at 10:33 AM (#4276515)
C'mon Reds, isn't it worth any price to have a Josh Hamilton/Billy Hamilton outfield? You can earn back some of their salaries with a reality show about them.
   21. SoSH U at work Posted: October 19, 2012 at 10:44 AM (#4276529)
I can see Denver as an attractive destination for Hamilton.

   22. Ok, Griffey's Dunn (Nothing Iffey About Griffey) Posted: October 19, 2012 at 10:49 AM (#4276534)
The Reds are signing Youkilis, right?


I hope not. Just what the Reds need is another right-handed bat that can't hit righthanded pitching anymore.
   23. hokieneer Posted: October 19, 2012 at 10:49 AM (#4276535)
rare case of a team needing right handed sock


Reds have been looking for right handed power my entire adult life.
   24. Ok, Griffey's Dunn (Nothing Iffey About Griffey) Posted: October 19, 2012 at 10:51 AM (#4276536)
Man... I still wonder if that 2008 team would disappeared in the playoffs if Hamilton hadn't been just given away back in 2006.


The Cubs had a deal in place with the Reds so the Reds could get Hamilton. The Cubs would have never even taken him in the rule 5 draft and he might still be a Devil Ray.
   25. hokieneer Posted: October 19, 2012 at 10:52 AM (#4276539)
The Reds are signing Youkilis, right?


My "reasonably priced FA acquisition" target for the Reds is Pagan. I don't have as much faith in Billy Hamilton being ready for 2014 as most people, and even if he is, that's a good problem to have.
   26. zonk Posted: October 19, 2012 at 11:10 AM (#4276553)
zonk

if theo wasn't signing prince i don't see how he ponies up for hamilton

fielder was much lower risk all the way around. and with fielder that's a big around.

ha, ha.


Yeah - but the Cubs had traded for Rizzo a few weeks before Prince signed... I suppose there was a conscious decision there NOT to get in on the Fielder bidding when doing the Rizzo deal.

I guess I just look at the OF differently -- especially when the OF can play CF (and as such, all 3 spots) -- I'm not saying that I want Theo to sign Hamilton... you're right - there's a ton of risk, and Hamilton will be 32 next season on a team that figures to not be very good for at least another season or two.

Plus, they don't really need an OF -- they need SP and a 3B.
   27. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: October 19, 2012 at 11:13 AM (#4276556)
zonk

third baseman?

i hear a guy in new york might be available.........
   28. zonk Posted: October 19, 2012 at 11:22 AM (#4276562)
zonk

third baseman?

i hear a guy in new york might be available.........


Heh... the Cubs also have a LF that's available.

Repeating from one of the A-Rod threads, though -- I don't think I'd do a Soriano-ARod swap even if the Yankees equalized the money (meaning, the Cubs essentially paying A-Rod the 36 million they still owe Fonsie with the Yankees footing the rest). If the Yankees were to eat a little more cash... say -- the Cubs pay A-Rod 30 million -- or, if the Yankees were to toss in a lottery ticket or two... OK.
   29. TDF, situational idiot Posted: October 19, 2012 at 11:48 AM (#4276580)
The Reds are signing Youkilis, right?
Um, why when they have Frazier?

Frazier's likely to give them the same production, isn't even arb eligible for 2 more years, and isn't about to turn 34.
   30. hokieneer Posted: October 19, 2012 at 11:56 AM (#4276584)
Frazier's likely to give them the same production, isn't even arb eligible for 2 more years, and isn't about to turn 34.


Frazier is probably capable of playing LF if the reds wanted to go for a 3b. The more I have thought about it, the more I'd rather have Frazier at 3b and look for other options for OF production.

I'm worried about a huge Ludwick regression and/or him wanting a lot more than the 1/$5 mutual option.
   31. Ok, Griffey's Dunn (Nothing Iffey About Griffey) Posted: October 19, 2012 at 11:58 AM (#4276588)
My "reasonably priced FA acquisition" target for the Reds is Pagan


Actually, this sounds good to me. switch hits, plays centerfield relatively well, gets on base at a decent clip, won't cost $20 million a year.
   32. hokieneer Posted: October 19, 2012 at 12:07 PM (#4276595)
Actually, this sounds good to me. switch hits, plays centerfield relatively well, gets on base at a decent clip, won't cost $20 million a year.


Yeah, I think it's a good fit. Gives the reds a L/S, a decent lead off hitter, and comes pre-installed with the veteran pixie dust aura for dusty. With Bourn, Upton, and Hamilton on the market, he would be the 4th prize CF. Figured a decent 2-3 year contact would be enough to sign him, so he wouldn't necessarily be blocking Hamilton.
   33. TDF, situational idiot Posted: October 19, 2012 at 12:10 PM (#4276598)
The Reds dealt him for Edinson Volquez, a trade that is just a few floors and a fast elevator from Manhattan-for-beads and Robinson-for-Pappas.
This, by the way, is revisionist history of the worst degree.

At the time, the Reds were desperate for pitchers - they were next to last in the league in RA, and after Harang there were a million question marks on the staff (actually, in most instances there wasn't any question at all). It's telling that 25 different pitchers appeared for the Reds in '07, and only 3 - Arroyo, Bailey (who wasn't any good until this year), and Bray - are still in the organization. On the other hand, they had an OK offense with Dunn, Griffey showing signs of life (623 PA!), Phillips, Encarnacion, .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address), and Votto tore it up in a September call-up.

So trading a hitter (who had only one season under his belt, and missed 72 games during the year) for a pitcher made sense.

And by the way - Vozquez is the last non-Canadian to lead the team in WAR - he was really good in '07. Unfortunately, then injuries and ineffectiveness set in.
   34. BDC Posted: October 19, 2012 at 12:19 PM (#4276605)
Indeed, Volquez went on to start the first Cincinnati playoff game in 15 years in '10, albeit knocked from the box and no-hit by Roy Halladay.

For that matter, as has often been observed, even Milt Pappas was hardly a disaster. He would go on to win 99 games over the next eight years, with an ERA+ of 107. This is not the kind of pitcher you just pick up off the sidewalk. Robinson had a great second half of a career in the meantime, and the trade was a win for Baltimore, for sure, but Pappas was not nothing; decent starting pitchers have substantial value.
   35. hokieneer Posted: October 19, 2012 at 12:20 PM (#4276608)
#33... There were also a lot of concerns about Hamilton's health going forward, specifically about what kind of toll did the couple years of drugs, parties, and not playing ball take on his body. There were also concerns about having to have handlers around him or the potential of him relapsing.

I was not a fan of the trade when it was made, but it wasn't that bad.

EDIT: If it's not clear, I agree with you TDF. Just adding to the points you made.
   36. OsunaSakata Posted: October 19, 2012 at 12:31 PM (#4276618)
This is one of those legendary pairings waiting to happen:

Frank and Brooks Robinson
Andruw and Chipper Jones
Billy and Josh Hamilton
   37. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: October 19, 2012 at 01:12 PM (#4276645)
With Bourn, Upton, and Hamilton on the market, he would be the 4th prize CF.

I wouldn't be surprised if Pagan has the most teams bidding for his services. Those first 3 all come with glaring warning signs for their projected high price tags.
   38. Dock Ellis on Acid Posted: October 19, 2012 at 01:30 PM (#4276656)
I wouldn't be surprised if Pagan has the most teams bidding for his services. Those first 3 all come with glaring warning signs for their projected high price tags.

I am in a pool with some friends guessing the landing spots of the Top 30 or so free agents that do not have options. The CF market is pretty saturated. I picked Pagan to be a Brave; it just seems right up Atlanta's alley. They do not do splashy, expensive, high-risk signings very often.

I have Bourn down as a Ranger, Victorino as a Red, Upton as a Met, and Hamilton playing LF as a Oriole. I also have Torii Hunter as a Phillie. I have not yet decided on where Melky Cabrera will land.
   39. TomH Posted: October 19, 2012 at 01:38 PM (#4276660)
If only the DiMaggios had been together. Oh wait, they are brothers, does not count. :)
   40. TDF, situational idiot Posted: October 19, 2012 at 01:57 PM (#4276669)
I was not a fan of the trade when it was made, but it wasn't that bad.
I hated the trade, even after Volquez's big first season.

Hamilton's talent was (and is) evident. I wasn't so concerned about his drug use (insert Keith Hernandez joke here), either, and I thought took the clubhouse rumors with a grain of salt. I also was never on the Volquez bandwagon (I wasn't surprised that he only had one good year in Cinci, no matter what the reason).

   41. SouthSideRyan Posted: October 19, 2012 at 01:58 PM (#4276670)
Repeating from one of the A-Rod threads, though -- I don't think I'd do a Soriano-ARod swap even if the Yankees equalized the money (meaning, the Cubs essentially paying A-Rod the 36 million they still owe Fonsie with the Yankees footing the rest). If the Yankees were to eat a little more cash... say -- the Cubs pay A-Rod 30 million -- or, if the Yankees were to toss in a lottery ticket or two... OK.


This is crazier than saying the Cubs "gave away" Hamilton. Do you project Soriano to be more valuable than A-Rod over the next 2 seasons? Do you project A-Rod to be worth nothing after 2014?
   42. Hack Wilson Posted: October 19, 2012 at 02:03 PM (#4276672)
This is crazier than saying the Cubs "gave away" Hamilton.


Crazy? The President of the United State called it “A Date Which Will Live in Infamy,” the sale was on December 7.
   43. zonk Posted: October 19, 2012 at 02:45 PM (#4276710)
This is crazier than saying the Cubs "gave away" Hamilton. Do you project Soriano to be more valuable than A-Rod over the next 2 seasons? Do you project A-Rod to be worth nothing after 2014?


In short -

Yes and yes.

He just looks cooked to me... of course, I thought Soriano looked cooked 3 years ago, so what do I know...
   44. Worrierking Posted: October 19, 2012 at 04:26 PM (#4276809)
Frank and Brooks Robinson
Andruw and Chipper Jones
Billy and Josh Hamilton


They could try to coax Milo out of retirement for the hat trick!
   45. Chris Fluit Posted: October 19, 2012 at 05:26 PM (#4276861)
They could try to coax Milo out of retirement for the hat trick!


They'd be better off asking Joey.
   46. Walt Davis Posted: October 21, 2012 at 03:23 AM (#4277844)
I am in a pool with some friends guessing the landing spots of the Top 30 or so free agents that do not have options.

The way I read that the first time, I was thinking you must lead the strangest life.

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