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Wednesday, July 16, 2014

Daugherty: Reds, not Selig, should have final say on Pete Rose

I was going to name my next band Władziu Ziu Peddles…but Liberace’s Ghost is go!

If I were Bob Castellini and the Reds organization – and I most assuredly am not – this is what I would say to Bud Selig, right now, about Peter Edward and the 2015 All Star Game:

“It’s our game. If we want Pete Rose to deliver the game ball on a rolling stage with showgirls, slot machines and Liberace’s ghost, that’s what we’re going to do.

“We have groveled as you have tossed us crumbs. We have been thankful and deferential and bowed deeply from the waist. But now, you’re outta here, and we will do with The Hit King what we damned well please.’‘

What is Baseball going to do about it? Deny Cincinnati an all-star game for another 27 years?

...But fair is fair and enough is enough. A lifetime ban has morphed into a lifetime grudge. This is in the “best interests of baseball?’‘

I don’t want to list reasons why Rose should be released from purgatory, or suggest his crimes against the game were any less egregious than those perpetrated – allegedly—by juicers whose names are still on the Hall of Fame ballot.

Everyone knows all that already. Anywhere else but Cincinnati, it’s not a major concern. But this is Cincinnati, and we are next in line for the all-star bash. And we should decide what role our flawed favorite son plays in our party, not a commissioner who will have been retired seven months.

More than that, though. . .

It’s time. Pete Rose is 73 years old, and out of the game for the last 25 years. Selig should come down from on high, leave the crumbs for the pigeons and do the benevolent thing. While he still can.

Repoz Posted: July 16, 2014 at 04:53 PM | 44 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: reds

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   1. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: July 16, 2014 at 06:10 PM (#4752304)
Reds, not Selig, should have final say on Pete Rose
No.

What is Baseball going to do about it? Deny Cincinnati an all-star game for another 27 years?


Wait, is there a reason why Cincinatti should get an All-Star Game more than once every 30 years?
   2. Ulysses S. Fairsmith Posted: July 16, 2014 at 06:13 PM (#4752308)
"Permanently ineligible" means just that. Rose's age and Selig's retirement have nothing to do with it.
   3. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: July 16, 2014 at 06:17 PM (#4752312)
Pete Rose is 73 years old, and out of the game for the last 25 years.
That just means they're doing it right.
   4. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: July 16, 2014 at 06:33 PM (#4752324)
Wait, is there a reason why Cincinatti should get an All-Star Game more than once every 30 years?


They opened a new ballpark in 2003, so it is a bit longer than usual for a stadium to get its first all-star game. Then again, PETCO hasn't hosted an all-star game either.
   5. Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: July 16, 2014 at 06:40 PM (#4752328)
This is in the “best interests of baseball?’‘

I think maybe it should have a question mark: "The Plague in Deadwood?"
   6. Walt Davis Posted: July 16, 2014 at 08:46 PM (#4752398)
We have groveled as you have tossed us crumbs.

... and millions in revenue sharing ... and aqueducts ... well, and roads, can't forget those ...
   7. BDC Posted: July 16, 2014 at 09:02 PM (#4752405)
PETCO hasn't hosted an all-star game either

I blame that on its association with interminable Primer political threads.
   8. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: July 16, 2014 at 09:42 PM (#4752427)
Anyone backing Pete Rose needs to tell me what he has done since his lifetime banishment to demonstrate he's a changed man. I mean the tax dodging going to jail lying lying lying lying then telling the truth the day Molitor and Eckersley were announced to detract from their day is all great behavior.

He has done nothing, not one thing, since his banishment tot make me feel he deserves sympathy. He broke baseballs cardinal rule and is paying the price he knew he would pay. He made a choice, he can live with it.
   9. Sunday silence Posted: July 16, 2014 at 10:29 PM (#4752453)
I didnt read the article but does it explain why the all star game is the appropriate venue to take this stand?
   10. Buck Coats Posted: July 16, 2014 at 10:55 PM (#4752464)
I think Pete Rose should remain banned from baseball (and the Hall of Fame) for forever.

But throwing out the first pitch at an All-Star Game? Whatever. I wouldn't have him do it, but I wouldn't ban a team from doing so.

Does Rose's ban prevent a TV or radio station from hiring Rose as a baseball broadcaster? I assume it must or else he'd already be doing so, right? I'm sure he needs the money.
   11. Dale Sams Posted: July 17, 2014 at 12:57 AM (#4752526)
Anyone backing Pete Rose needs to tell me what he has done since his lifetime banishment to demonstrate he's a changed man. I mean the tax dodging going to jail lying lying lying lying then telling the truth the day Molitor and Eckersley were announced to detract from their day is all great behavior.

He has done nothing, not one thing, since his banishment tot make me feel he deserves sympathy. He broke baseballs cardinal rule and is paying the price he knew he would pay. He made a choice, he can live with it.


It makes Baseball look....petty (?)...for shutting out an old man? I think lifting his banishment would be a good PR move for baseball. You could lift the entire ban and Rose would still fail to make the HOF in his lifetime.
   12. odds are meatwad is drunk Posted: July 17, 2014 at 01:13 AM (#4752534)
Why not have joe morgan do it? He is a hof player and a former red.
   13. Walt Davis Posted: July 17, 2014 at 02:03 AM (#4752541)
Or Tony Perez ... or Barry Larkin (who actually spent his entire career there) ... or Dave Concepcion (same). Or Clay Carroll, Pedro Borbon, Rawly Eastwick, Rob Dibble, Randy Myers and Aroldis Chapman.
   14. DFA Posted: July 17, 2014 at 02:30 AM (#4752549)
It makes Baseball look....petty (?)...for shutting out an old man? I think lifting his banishment would be a good PR move for baseball. You could lift the entire ban and Rose would still fail to make the HOF in his lifetime.


Lifetime bans don't really mean anything if they aren't for a lifetime. I hate to be all bitter and stuff, but this is the price he pays.

Having Rose throw out the first pitch seems like a dickish move, maybe it's revenge for not starting the first game on Opening Day or something...
   15. vortex of dissipation Posted: July 17, 2014 at 02:41 AM (#4752551)
Or Tony Perez ... or Barry Larkin (who actually spent his entire career there) ... or Dave Concepcion (same). Or Clay Carroll, Pedro Borbon, Rawly Eastwick, Rob Dibble, Randy Myers and Aroldis Chapman.


Or Johnny Bench...
   16. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: July 17, 2014 at 03:14 AM (#4752554)
Lifetime bans don't really mean anything if they aren't for a lifetime. I hate to be all bitter and stuff, but this is the price he pays.
Second this. Bad people get old too, but that doesn't mean they automatically also get nicer or better or more forgivable. Like others have pointed out, Rose has done nothing to actually change his ways, and simply mouthing "I'm sorry" doesn't do it for me.
   17. BrianBrianson Posted: July 17, 2014 at 08:35 AM (#4752577)
Lifetime bans don't really mean anything if they aren't for a lifetime.
#

It's not a lifetime ban, it's a forever ban. Zombie Pete Rose will remained barred.
   18. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 17, 2014 at 08:45 AM (#4752582)
What is Baseball going to do about it? Deny Cincinnati an all-star game for another 27 years?


They could have Pete frog-marched off the field by MLB security goons.

I'd be OK with that.
   19. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: July 17, 2014 at 08:49 AM (#4752583)
I think Pete Rose should remain banned from baseball (and the Hall of Fame) for forever.

But throwing out the first pitch at an All-Star Game? Whatever. I wouldn't have him do it, but I wouldn't ban a team from doing so.


Agree, this is simply a ceremonial gesture. He's not managing or working for a team. No big whoop.
   20. BDC Posted: July 17, 2014 at 08:49 AM (#4752584)
It makes Baseball look....petty (?)...for shutting out an old man

I think it makes baseball look principled.
   21. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 17, 2014 at 08:50 AM (#4752585)
In our latest episode of Things White People Think:

Pete Rose is awful and committed the "cardinal sin" of baseball. It's on all the clubhouse walls.

   22. Kurt Posted: July 17, 2014 at 08:52 AM (#4752586)
It makes Baseball look....petty (?)...for shutting out an old man?


Ah, the always-compelling Uncle Leo defense.
   23. Gazizza, my Dilznoofuses! Posted: July 17, 2014 at 08:57 AM (#4752588)
A few points before I make my major point:

1) Pete Rose was my favorite player as a child.
2) I don't care about steroid use from an "integrity of the game" point of view

Having said that, I think it's a nice message that baseball (or at least its Hall of Fame) care so much about the integrity of the game that the all-time hit leader, the all-time home-run leader and the top three single-season home run leaders are all out of the Hall of Fame due to ethical clouds. I don't necessarily agree with the quasi ban on the perceived steroid users, but I like the message it sends.
   24. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: July 17, 2014 at 09:16 AM (#4752594)
In our latest episode of Things White People Think:

Pete Rose is awful and committed the "cardinal sin" of baseball. It's on all the clubhouse walls.


Don't engage the troll don't engage the troll...ah #### it.

Do black people not think this? Do Asian-Americans not think this? Are those groups in favor of betting on baseball? I like that you referenced my post but entirely ignored the question I asked. What is the justification for letting him back into the game? There isn't one. As El Hombre points out being old doesn't mean he didn't commit the "crime."

Look, I'm open to an argument that the punishment is excessive for the crime in question. I don't think it is but I'm willing to hear the argument. But Pete Rose is just not the test case for that one. He has been 100% of a scumbag since it happened. There is not one thing in his track record where you say "look, here is an example of someone genuinely sorry for what he did and accepting responsibility."
   25. Rafael Bellylard: Built like a Panda. Posted: July 17, 2014 at 09:29 AM (#4752604)
I'm not a religious person, but I do believe forgiveness follows repentance. I haven't seen repentance from Pete Rose, so I don't see why forgiveness is due.
   26. vivaelpujols Posted: July 17, 2014 at 09:54 AM (#4752614)
Bad people get old too, but that doesn't mean they automatically also get nicer or better or more forgivable.

Politicians, ugly buildings, and whores all get respectable if they last long enough.

   27. vivaelpujols Posted: July 17, 2014 at 09:58 AM (#4752618)
I think it makes baseball look principled.


Hitler had principles too.

But seriously zero tolerance polices are usually a bad idea, especially when you're dealing with something as inconsequential as Rose being given a shot at the HOF. The only person who is effected by that decision is Rose. It's not like anyone's gonna start gambling because Rose was forgiven 25 years later. Being punitive for the sake of being punitive is petty in my opinion.
   28. vivaelpujols Posted: July 17, 2014 at 09:59 AM (#4752619)
Do black people not think this? Do Asian-Americans not think this? Are those groups in favor of betting on baseball? I like that you referenced my post but entirely ignored the question I asked. What is the justification for letting him back into the game? There isn't one. As El Hombre points out being old doesn't mean he didn't commit the "crime.


I think the idea is that only people with no actual problems in their life would make a big deal out of what Rose did.
   29. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 17, 2014 at 09:59 AM (#4752620)
Don't engage the troll don't engage the troll...ah #### it.

There's nothing "trolling" about it. The unceasing and merciless moralizing about the gambling "rule" as applied to Pete Rose, and the concomitant imaginary purity of baseball, is about as whitebread as it gets. It's right up there with A Prarie Home Companion or John Stockton's short shorts.
   30. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: July 17, 2014 at 10:05 AM (#4752624)
Just keep Rose out of the Hall of Fame, and I don't give a crap if the Reds want to hire him as a batting coach.
   31. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: July 17, 2014 at 10:09 AM (#4752627)
the gambling "rule" as applied to Pete Rose


I'm not sure why the quotes are there. The rule existed then and it exists now. I have no issues with any sort of purity of baseball. I'm well aware that there are a lot of scumbags in the game, I'm fine with that. As I said, if you have examples of why Rose deserves to have the penalty overturned please share them.

I think the idea is that only people with no actual problems in their life would make a big deal out of what Rose did.


Ah, bumper sticker politics.

That's true of pretty much every topic we discuss around here. I make no bones about the fact that my life is pretty damned great. I'm a lucky guy. That I get to spend an obscene amount of time worrying about people who play a game is pretty wonderful. Doesn't change the fact that Rose broke a rule with a defined punishment.
   32. Blastin Posted: July 17, 2014 at 10:30 AM (#4752638)
Why did they stop wearing short-shorts in basketball? Short-shorts are way better for fitness activities.
   33. Bitter Mouse Posted: July 17, 2014 at 10:38 AM (#4752645)
I think the idea is that only people with no actual problems in their life would make a big deal out of what Rose did.


Neither banning him nor letting him in the game is a "big deal".

Pete Rose not getting to be in the HoF or being able to throw out the first pitch or whatever is truly a first world problem, so what? It is still a thing, just like Rose breaking a defined rule with a defined punishment and then accepting a ban from baseball is a thing. And hey I am OK with actions having consequences.
   34. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: July 17, 2014 at 11:09 AM (#4752678)
Why did they stop wearing short-shorts in basketball? Short-shorts are way better for fitness activities.


I'm just waiting for them to make a comeback because, hey, more space for visible tattoos.
   35. BDC Posted: July 17, 2014 at 11:34 AM (#4752699)
Pete Rose not getting to be in the HoF or being able to throw out the first pitch or whatever is truly a first world problem, so what? It is still a thing

Exactly. This is not Cosmic Significance Think Factory.

Now I gotta run over to the OTP thread :)

No, seriously. Zero-tolerance policies are bad if you have one beer and get suspended from high school. That kind of dynamic makes people cynical because it's so out of proportion to the seriousness of the "offense."

Gambling on baseball is deathly serious when it comes to the integrity of baseball. Sure, there's all kinds of venality in the business of baseball. But I haven't heard any suggestion, since the Rose ban, that any player or manager or umpire is betting on games, still less fixing them. Either all of us are woefully misinformed, or WRT gambling at least, baseball is pure. Do you want it to get less pure in that respect simply because it fails in others?
   36. Dan The Mediocre Posted: July 17, 2014 at 12:06 PM (#4752754)
But seriously zero tolerance polices are usually a bad idea, especially when you're dealing with something as inconsequential as Rose being given a shot at the HOF. The only person who is effected by that decision is Rose. It's not like anyone's gonna start gambling because Rose was forgiven 25 years later. Being punitive for the sake of being punitive is petty in my opinion.


MLB has no say as far as the rules of the Hall of Fame. So that complaint is irrelevant as far as whether or not Rose should be banned by MLB.
   37. DanG Posted: July 17, 2014 at 02:11 PM (#4752899)
MLB has no say as far as the rules of the Hall of Fame. So that complaint is irrelevant as far as whether or not Rose should be banned by MLB.
Exactly. Rose is on baseball’s permanently ineligible list. A banned person is forbidden from employment with MLB or its affiliated minor leagues, and is forbidden from other professional involvement with MLB such as acting as a sports agent for an MLB player.

That's it. In a ruling clearly aimed at Rose (despite their denials) the HOF Board of Directors decided that players on The List would be ineligible for the Hall. They made up this rule in 1991, just as Rose was about to become eligible.

Players on this list can be removed from it at any time, as many have in the past. But the HOF does not have to wait for that to make Rose eligible. And so what if Rose was eligible? The VC wouldn't vote him in anyway.

So there is nothing barring Rose from throwing out a first pitch. Whether he deserves to be given the honor of doing so is questionable, of course.
   38. Ron J2 Posted: July 17, 2014 at 02:57 PM (#4752942)
#36 Well "no say" is something of an overbid. Jane Forbes Clark was the person whose opinion truly mattered (in that she could change the composition of the HOF board of directors more or less at will -- even if she's never used that power).

She specifically cited Tom Seaver as convincing her that the exclusion of players on the ineligible list was a good idea, but in the same interview mentioned discussions with other members of the board -- many of whom had direct ties to MLB (owners, league execs, etc)

In other words, MLB can't unilaterally set the rules but they are extremely influential. And given Jane Forbes Clark's temperament, they had what amounted to functional control (though they didn't have an absolute majority, they just needed a few others members of the board to vote with them. Of course it's not a given that they would vote as a group) at the time the decision was taken.
   39. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 17, 2014 at 03:55 PM (#4753030)
In our latest episode of Things White People Think:

Pete Rose is awful and committed the "cardinal sin" of baseball. It's on all the clubhouse walls.


The last time I checked, Pete Rose was a white guy.
   40. Bitter Mouse Posted: July 17, 2014 at 04:03 PM (#4753047)
The last time I checked, Pete Rose was a white guy.


Well yeah, do you remember how hard working, smart and gritty he was described as being when he played?
   41. Karl from NY Posted: July 17, 2014 at 11:02 PM (#4753320)
What harm could it possibly do for Pete Rose to participate in baseball related activities now?

Is he going to gamble again? Hell no, everyone will be watching him like a hawk.

Is letting him back in going to soften the deterrent against other would-be gamblers? No. Joey McFixer isn't going to tell himself "well I'll get back in when I'm 73."

Is he going to hurt attendance or profits or cost anybody money? No.

Pete Rose has been punished enough and now the crusades against him are just vindictiveness. A lifetime is a long time to never allow someone a new chance.
   42. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 17, 2014 at 11:16 PM (#4753325)
I fail to see why the Reds or people of Cincinnati feel a need to honor Rose. Is Mel Hall unavailable? If they must, let the Mayor give Rose the key to the city.

MLB has no reason to change its stance. Rose took the ban because he didn't want his misdeeds exposed in a hearing, then lied about his transgressions for more than a decade, before cashing in with a confessional book. He deserves nothing from MLB.
   43. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 18, 2014 at 09:54 AM (#4753487)
Is he going to gamble again? Hell no, everyone will be watching him like a hawk.


Of course he's going to gamble again. He's an addict, and deep down he still doesn't believe he did anything wrong.

Is he going to hurt attendance or profits or cost anybody money? No.


Allowing gamblers to become involved in the game can have a huge effect on attendance. Look at the numbers for the CPBL following their recent gambling scandal.
   44. Ok, Griffey's Dunn (Nothing Iffey About Griffey) Posted: July 18, 2014 at 10:05 AM (#4753499)
Wasn't Pete named to the All-Century Team, and then allowed on the field during an All-Star game for the celebration of that team? How is letting him throw a first pitch any different?

edit:

Pete is allowed to take part in All-Star game Sorry. video included in link

edit, edit: Seriously, it looks like Daugherty posted this after Selig had already given his ok for Pete to take part. What was the point, other than to get him page clicks.

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