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Wednesday, December 18, 2013

Dave Perkins & Bob Elliot Fill Out Their Hall Of Fame Ballots In Prime Time Sports Studio

Okay, got your alcohol, benzos, and opiates lined up? Go.

Dave Perkins & Bob Elliot, Former Toronto Star Sports Columnist and Current Toronto Sun Baseball Columnist, joined Bob McCown & Stephen Brunt in studio on Prime Time Sports to fill out their Baseball Hall of Fame ballots and share their thinking process towards how they form their ballot.

Thanks to Leo Kitty.

Repoz Posted: December 18, 2013 at 01:01 AM | 33 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: hof

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   1. Bitter Calculus Instructor Posted: December 18, 2013 at 01:51 AM (#4620033)
Since we don't all want to listen to a 30 minute program, could you post the results?

Edit: Listening to it now. Will post results when they get there. They made an interesting point about LaRussa being elected being somewhat hypocritical when steroid players aren't being elected.
   2. Bitter Calculus Instructor Posted: December 18, 2013 at 02:03 AM (#4620034)
Elliot: Bonds, Clemens, Glavine, Kent, Maddux, McGriff, Morris, Raines, Thomas and Walker
   3. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: December 18, 2013 at 02:14 AM (#4620036)
Elliot: Bonds, Clemens, Glavine, Kent, Maddux, McGriff, Morris, Raines, Thomas and Walker


How the hell did Bonds and Maddux make it on that ballot? Otherwise, it's like the Canadian ideal - Six guys who played in Canada, one Canuck, a former hockey player and zero Mussinas.

   4. Bitter Calculus Instructor Posted: December 18, 2013 at 02:19 AM (#4620037)
Perkin's last year: Bagwell, Biggio, Bonds, Clemens, Martinez, Morris, Piazza, Raines, Trammel, Walker
He needs to bump three for Maddux, Glavine and Thomas. Down goes Trammel, Martinez and Raines. He chose Walker over Raines because he was afraid Walker could drop off the ballot. So Perkin's new ballot:

Bagwell, Biggio, Bonds, Clemens, Glavine, Maddux, Morris, Piazza, Thomas and Walker.
   5. Gonfalon B. Posted: December 18, 2013 at 02:19 AM (#4620039)
Perkins, 2013: Bagwell, Biggio, Bonds, Clemens, E.Martinez (*), Morris, Piazza, Raines, Trammell, Walker
Perkins, 2014: Bagwell, Biggio, Bonds, Clemens, Glavine, Maddux, Morris, Piazza, Thomas, Walker

Elliot, 2013: ???
Eliot, 2014: Bonds, Clemens, Glavine, Kent, Maddux, McGriff, Morris, Raines, Thomas, Walker

(* = This column by Perkins says he picked Palmeiro last year, not Martinez. Either way, the spot's been usurped.)

Perkins on LaRussa: "Oh! The number one enabler... with the possible exception of Joe Torre. It's a huge mixed message from the Hall of Fame... I had a small discussion with one of the members [of the committee]... He didn't care."
Elliot: "Let's put ‘Mr. Oblivious’ on LaRussa's plaque."

Perkins: "It would have been tough if the ballot was fourteen, by my count... My personal quandary this year is that in my twenty years of voting, I have never voted for a guy and then not voted for him... Once I changed my mind on a guy, I never went back. For instance, it took me a long time to buy into the Bert Blyleven arguments, and I finally did... Well, now, I believe I have to leave off three names that I voted for last year. And it really bothers me... [much later]... I feel terrible about those three guys. I’ll get ‘em next year, I hope... Maybe I can put the three of them back on, unless it’s Randy Johnson. And Smoltz. It just keeps coming.”

“Perkins: “I go through this exercise of saying ‘Okay, rank those ten [names from last year].’ And every time I do it, I get a different list.”

[Q: Will the Hall of Fame issue a directive on PED-associated candidates, to clear up the logjam?]
Perkins: “I think they like it the way it is, where we take all the heat.”

(Hope I didn't mix up any of the speakers.)
   6. Bitter Calculus Instructor Posted: December 18, 2013 at 02:20 AM (#4620040)
[3] One of the guys on the show even mentioned that it sounded like a Canadian ballot and Elliot admitted the Canadian bias.
   7. Bitter Calculus Instructor Posted: December 18, 2013 at 02:24 AM (#4620041)
[5] I thought the question about if the hall of fame would issue a directive and Perkin's line about taking the heat were about how to vote with regards to PEDs.
   8. Gonfalon B. Posted: December 18, 2013 at 02:26 AM (#4620043)
Yeah, I thought that was implicit. It has now been explicitly edited.
   9. staring out the window and waiting for fenderbelly Posted: December 18, 2013 at 03:21 AM (#4620046)
5- GB, I love your humorous posts... it took a while to decide which this one was.
   10. John Northey Posted: December 18, 2013 at 08:23 AM (#4620052)
I wonder how many voters will see what the HOF vets did with voting in the most obvious enabler (LaRussa) and another well known one (Torre) (Cox had a few but not as high profile) without a single vote against and say 'well, obviously the HOF doesn't care'. Guess we'll see if Bonds & Clemens have any bump up, but it'll be hard with such a crowded ballot as we've seen it is easy to make a 10 man ballot without touching the core PED group.
   11. The Tarp That Ate Vince Coleman Posted: December 18, 2013 at 09:10 AM (#4620057)
I read this as "Bob and Doug" fill out their Hall of Fame ballots.

Bob: "Uh, Lloyd Moseby. Dane Iorg.
Dave: "Dave Stieb."
Bob: "Geddy Lee."
Doug: "Take off, eh? Hoser."
Bob: "That's right. Forgot him. Jose Canseco."
Doug: "Beauty."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Jm4LoOaAWI

   12. Random Transaction Generator Posted: December 18, 2013 at 09:15 AM (#4620059)
I'm just happy that both of them used all 10 spots on the ballot.
   13. LargeBill Posted: December 18, 2013 at 09:43 AM (#4620063)
One thing that is starting to stand out is voters who have to create ballot space for Maddux, Glavine & Thomas seem to be consistently dropping everyone but Morris. Last year on the ballot seems to be providing some protection. I assume apparently incorrectly that being 6th best starting pitcher on ballot would out weigh the last year concern but voters seem impervious to noticing the direct comparisons.

Anxious to start seeing to regular updates to the ballot tally. Unless I've missed an article, Maddux & Glavine are still riding 100% (extremely SSS caveat).
   14. TDF, situational idiot Posted: December 18, 2013 at 09:43 AM (#4620064)
I wonder how many voters will see what the HOF vets did with voting in the most obvious enabler (LaRussa) and another well known one (Torre) (Cox had a few but not as high profile) without a single vote against and say 'well, obviously the HOF doesn't care'.
The "Hall of Fame" itself doesn't vote for anyone; members of the BBWAA vote for "current" players, and the Vets committee votes on players who've fallen off the ballot and non-players.

The only influence the HOF has over voting is that the Board of Directors selects the voters for the various Vet committees.
   15. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: December 18, 2013 at 09:52 AM (#4620067)
I'm just happy that both of them used all 10 spots on the ballot.


Surprisingly to me that seems to be happening regularly. It doesn't seem like there are a lot of ballots that have shown up that don't have 10 or close to it at least.
   16. John Northey Posted: December 18, 2013 at 09:57 AM (#4620072)
True TDF but I see it as a method for the writers to see how others view the PED issue. If the guy viewed as the #1 enabler (TLR) gets in without a single vote against him then that screams 'who cares' and the writers need to take that to heart and start clearing the logjam by getting Bonds & Clemens in. McGwire & Sosa & Palmeiro the HOF can live without, but Bonds & Clemens are inner circle and need to be in at some point, ideally sometime soon.

That said, I suspect they'll wait until the 2016/2017 ballots (2016 having just Griffey Jr as a real HOF'er, 2017 having 2 more PED guys in IRod and ManRam plus a non-PED but also not first ballot guy in Vladimir Guerrero). Trevor Hoffman joins in 2016 but he will probably take awhile to get in as most relievers do.
   17. TDF, situational idiot Posted: December 18, 2013 at 11:06 AM (#4620098)
True TDF but I see it as a method for the writers to see how others view the PED issue. If the guy viewed as the #1 enabler (TLR) gets in without a single vote against him then that screams 'who cares' and the writers need to take that to heart and start clearing the logjam by getting Bonds & Clemens in. McGwire & Sosa & Palmeiro the HOF can live without, but Bonds & Clemens are inner circle and need to be in at some point, ideally sometime soon.
I think there's always been a disconnect between how the press (who votes for "current" players) and...well, the entire rest of the world view this issue, and I don't think TLR getting inducted makes a bit of difference and may even make thinks worse.

Many of the anti-PED voters will look at the Vet Committe vote and say "What a travesty! I have to hold the line against these usurpers so another one can't soil this sacred institution!" while many more will say "But those ugly PED users did everything under the cover of darkness; TLR and Torre couldn't have known a thing!" Either way, it doesn't change any opinions and may make a few more steadfast.

The PED users will be on the outside looking in, I think, until and unless there are enough new voters who look past it (or put it in context) to outvote the existing anti-PED voters. I think there will be very few minds actually changed for a long time (what posters here have changed their views on the subject?).
   18. John Northey Posted: December 18, 2013 at 03:01 PM (#4620250)
It would be funny if the anti-PED crew keeps Clemens & Bonds out for 15 years then their first time on the vet ballot they get in with all votes.
   19. bobm Posted: December 18, 2013 at 03:27 PM (#4620274)
Trevor Hoffman joins in 2016 but he will probably take awhile to get in as most relievers do.

He and his 28 WAR, less than Lee Smith.

Spanning Multiple Seasons or entire Careers, From 1901 to 2013, (requiring SV>=300), sorted by greatest WAR for Pitchers

                                                          
Rk                Player  WAR  SV    G  GS  GF     IP ERA+
1       Dennis Eckersley 62.4 390 1071 361 577 3285.2  116
2         Mariano Rivera 56.5 652 1115  10 952 1283.2  205
3           Rich Gossage 41.9 310 1002  37 681 1809.1  126
4              Lee Smith 29.5 478 1022   6 802 1289.1  132
5         Trevor Hoffman 28.2 601 1035   0 856 1089.1  141
6           Billy Wagner 27.7 422  853   0 703  903.0  187
7             Joe Nathan 26.2 341  714  29 531  858.2  158
8         Rollie Fingers 25.1 341  944  37 709 1701.1  120
9           Bruce Sutter 24.5 300  661   0 512 1042.0  136
10           John Franco 23.5 424 1119   0 774 1245.2  138
11             Tom Henke 23.0 311  642   0 548  789.2  157
12            Doug Jones 21.1 303  846   4 640 1128.1  129
13   Francisco Rodriguez 20.7 304  730   0 481  767.1  158
14         Rick Aguilera 20.7 318  732  89 557 1291.1  118
15       Jeff Montgomery 20.4 304  700   1 549  868.2  135
16        John Wetteland 19.1 330  618  17 523  765.0  148
17          Jeff Reardon 19.0 367  880   0 695 1132.1  122
18     Roberto Hernandez 18.6 326 1010   3 667 1071.1  131
19         Troy Percival 17.2 358  703   1 546  708.2  146
20     Francisco Cordero 16.9 329  800   0 575  824.2  135
21              Robb Nen 15.2 314  643   4 549  715.0  139
22           Randy Myers 15.1 347  728  12 548  884.2  123
23    Jason Isringhausen 12.1 300  724  52 499 1007.2  116
24             Jose Mesa 11.4 321 1022  95 633 1548.2  100
25            Todd Jones 10.4 319  982   1 619 1072.0  111
Rk                Player  WAR  SV    G  GS  GF     IP ERA+


   20. Mickey Henry Mays Posted: December 18, 2013 at 03:59 PM (#4620326)
One guy that nobody ever talks about is Billy Wagner. Yea he's a little light in IP but he was damn near unhittable. Of all pitchers with more then 900 IP he's got the lowest OPS+ against, and it ain't even close.




OOPS! I missed Mariano. It's Mo 45 Wagner 49 and Pedro 61 in 2800 IP, yea, he was good.
   21. Ace of Kevin Bass Posted: December 18, 2013 at 05:28 PM (#4620397)
How does someone justify believing that Fred McGriff is a Hall of Famer but not Jeff Bagwell?
   22. DL from MN Posted: December 18, 2013 at 05:29 PM (#4620399)
There's no "I'll vote for him later" with Jack Morris. It's now or never.
   23. John Northey Posted: December 18, 2013 at 06:18 PM (#4620446)
The McGriff vote would be a sorta homer vote as McGriff came up with the Jays (got him for a few relievers out of the Yankees when he was in A ball). Using one or two slots for a local favorite isn't a bad thing, although this year it sure is tough to do but McGriff was a near HOF quality player so it isn't crazy to vote for him. An unlimited ballot would make it more odd to vote McGriff but not Bagwell.
   24. Ace of Kevin Bass Posted: December 18, 2013 at 06:39 PM (#4620462)
That makes sense for this guy, I agree. I'm fairly certain I've seen one or two other ballots with McGriff and not Bagwell, but I'll just chalk that up to the vagaries of sportswriters.
   25. Walt Davis Posted: December 19, 2013 at 01:20 AM (#4620661)
How does someone justify believing that Fred McGriff is a Hall of Famer but not Jeff Bagwell?

Canadian bias aside ...

a) I suppose if you think steroids don't disqualify but did help and you think Bagwell used and ...

b) I always enjoy pointing this out ... McGriff has more hits, more HR and more RBI than Bagwell. He even has one more AS game. He's even fewer than 100 BB behind Bagwell. Those differences are pretty much all due to 700 more PA but then that's just one season's worth. And even Bagwell's MVP is for 2/3 of a season.

It's still a big gap but about half of the WAR difference between them is defense and baserunning. Just how much value do you think the BBWAA has historically placed on defense and baserunning when it comes to 1B candidates?

I think Bagwell should have sailed in but he's a slugging 1B from a slugging era and couldn't get to 500 HR and nowhere near 3000 hits. Murray did both, Palmeiro did both, McGriff came tantalizingly close to 2500/500, Thomas made it over the 500 hump and is just short of 2500 hits. Bagwell's counting stats aren't really any better than Billy Williams who played in the deadball 60s. Or Stargell's in the same PA.

I see using the old school sim scores, Delgado is #1, McGriff is #3. Stargell at #10 is the only current HoFer (Thomas at #2 will be, Vlad at #4 might be, Pujols at #8 will be). At age 30 he had not a single HoF comp (current or future) on his list.

Anyway, super traditional voters don't have a lot of reason to vote Bagwell nor to consider him substantially better than McGriff.
   26. Booey Posted: December 19, 2013 at 01:37 AM (#4620664)
Billy Wagner had a 187 ERA+? Wow.

Just looked it up and yeah, a career 2.31 ERA during the sillyball era (and a not too shabby 7 AS appearances). He doesn't come close to deserving it, of course, but does anyone think the BBWAA will view Wagner as a serious HOF candidate? He's at least as good as Sutter.
   27. EddieA Posted: December 19, 2013 at 02:08 AM (#4620674)
Another point on McGriff versus Bagwell is strike year credits.
McGriff would surely have hit the 7 home run he lacks for the magic 500. He was having his best home run year.
Bagwell is perhaps the only player whose career directly benefited from the strike. He won an MVP he would not have won and his historic 1994 rate stats would be discounted on the leader boards because of a shortage of PAs - he was disabled with a broken hand on August 10, I think for the year. Bonds or Williams would have won that MVP when they broke the Maris home run record.
   28. SoSH U at work Posted: December 19, 2013 at 02:39 AM (#4620677)
Bonds or Williams would have won that MVP when they broke the Maris home run record.


Bonds was not going to break the HR record that year (I doubt Williams would have either, but at least he had a chance).

But you're right, someone besides Bagwell would have won the MVP.

For what it's worth, I don't think a 500-HR club member Crime Dog is a significantly better HoF candidate than he is now.
   29. EddieA Posted: December 19, 2013 at 03:05 AM (#4620681)
Giants had 47 games left, Bonds had 37 and had hit 23 homers in the previous 45 games, probably not coincidentally when he had been switched to 3rd in front of Williams instead of behind him. There were several people with a shot at 61 in 1994.
   30. Random Transaction Generator Posted: December 19, 2013 at 09:57 AM (#4620725)
I always enjoy pointing this out ... McGriff has more hits, more HR and more RBI than Bagwell. He even has one more AS game. He's even fewer than 100 BB behind Bagwell. Those differences are pretty much all due to 700 more PA but then that's just one season's worth. And even Bagwell's MVP is for 2/3 of a season.


Don't forget, McGriff led his league in HR twice (once AL, once NL) , while Bagwell never led his league in HR.

Side question: Who has led both the AL and NL in home runs in different seasons?

Sam Crawford
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire

Is there anyone else?
   31. Misirlou is on hiding to nowhere Posted: December 19, 2013 at 10:06 AM (#4620727)
Side question: Who has led both the AL and NL in home runs in different seasons?

Sam Crawford
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire

Is there anyone else?


Thome came close. Second to ARod in 2001 and 2002, then led the NL in 2003.
   32. Booey Posted: December 19, 2013 at 12:39 PM (#4620886)
Side question: Who has led both the AL and NL in home runs in different seasons?


I was thinking Frank Robinson had to have done it, but looking it up he surprisingly never led the NL. The downside of having to compete against Aaron, Mays, Mathews, McCovey, and Banks the entire time.
   33. Chris Fluit Posted: December 19, 2013 at 02:12 PM (#4620958)
One guy that nobody ever talks about is Billy Wagner. Yea he's a little light in IP but he was damn near unhittable. Of all pitchers with more then 900 IP he's got the lowest OPS+ against, and it ain't even close.


Wagner is vastly underrated. He finished 10th in WAR for pitchers in 1999 in only 74 innings. He had 4 seasons in top ten in WPA- '99, '01, '03 and '06 (admittedly not the best stat in the world, but it can be useful when comparing relievers to starters). He's 5th in saves and 6th in games finished. However, as you mentioned, he's light in the innings department. He pitched exclusively in the era of the one-inning closer, retired at a relatively early 38 and finished his career with barely 900 innings (903, to be precise). As such, he doesn't show up on most career lists (career cutoffs tend to start at 1000 innings, not 900).

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