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Tuesday, February 21, 2017

Dave Stieb on Hall of Fame: ‘I surely did not deserve to be just wiped off the map’ | MLB | Sporting News

In case anyone’s wondering, Stieb’s heard of WAR.

“Pat Hentgen told me years ago, he goes, ‘Man, you know how they’re using that WAR a lot, that stat?’ I go, ‘Yeah.’ He goes, ‘They use that like crazy now to gauge how good someone really is.’ He goes, ‘If they looked at that when you were playing, you would have won four Cy Young Awards in a row,’” Stieb said, noting it would have been 1982 through 1985 when he led for WAR three consecutive years and finished second the fourth.

Jim Furtado Posted: February 21, 2017 at 12:51 PM | 55 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: blue jays, dave stieb, hall of fame

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   1. RMc Has Bizarre Ideas to Fix Baseball Posted: February 21, 2017 at 01:33 PM (#5405837)
Geez, people talk about Dave Stieb like he was some superstar or something. Yes, Stieb was easily the best pitcher of the 80s by WAR (48.2, 10 more than Blyleven)...the problem is that the 80s (and 1990) is everything Stieb has to sell. His career WAR of 57 puts him in the conversation, but there's not much meat on those bones -- he pitched for mostly terrible teams and never came close to a CY or an MVP. 176 wins, less than 3,000 IP. None of his comps are even decent candidates for the HOF, unless you want to induct guys like Virgil Trucks and Ken Holtzman (in which case, God bless you). No, he didn't deserve one-and-done, but neither did Lou Whitaker or Rick Reuschel or a bunch of other guys. Sorry, Dave.
   2. BDC Posted: February 21, 2017 at 01:48 PM (#5405870)
As comps go, these guys are triplets separated at birth, as I'm sure many a HOM thread has noted:

Player          WAR  GS ERA+   G GF   W   L     IP  ERA  FIP  HR
David Cone     61.7 419  121 450  9 194 126 2898.2 3.46 3.57 258
Dave Stieb     57.0 412  122 443 14 176 137 2895.1 3.44 3.82 225
Kevin Appier   55.1 402  121 414  2 169 137 2595.1 3.74 3.81 232 


Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 2/21/2017.

   3. shoewizard Posted: February 21, 2017 at 01:52 PM (#5405879)
Well Stieb clearly has an understanding of how he ranks

Fuller quote:

"I said right off the bat, 'I don't belong in the Hall of Fame, I did not win enough games and so forth, I surely did not deserve to be just wiped off the map after the first-year ballot,” Stieb said. “It's like, please, amuse me and string me out for two, three years."
   4. shoewizard Posted: February 21, 2017 at 01:57 PM (#5405890)
BDC, one minor note, of those 3, percentage of runs that were un earned runs:

Appier 7.7%
Cone 8.8%
Stieb 9.7%

   5. SoSH U at work Posted: February 21, 2017 at 02:04 PM (#5405912)
he pitched for mostly terrible teams


Huh? The first three Blue Jays teams he pitched on were terrible, the fourth was a handful of games below .500 and the next 10 were in the hunt for the AL East title on an annual basis.
   6. eric Posted: February 21, 2017 at 02:09 PM (#5405919)
I know Walt Davis is always looking for an example of a player for whom WAR and WAA tell a different story. Stieb has 57 pWAR (57.2 total), but 31.2 WAA (33.4 peak--which, btw, I'm defining as highest career total at some point, not only positive seasons or whatever, in case that makes a difference).

Stargell, for example, has 57.5 WAR but 26.2 WAA (27.1 peak) so Stieb has a 20% advantage there. Looking at pitchers, Sutton has 68.7 WAR, but only 23.3 WAA (24.2 peak). Now, at the other extreme, Koufax only has 53.2 WAR, 30.7 WAA (also peak, of course). So I guess right there, Stieb, Sutton and Koufax, is a set of 3 for which WAR and WAA (career or peak) each individually tell a different story and then the story is different again if you combine them:

WAR: Sutton, Stieb, Koufax
WAA: Stieb, Koufax, Sutton
Both: Koufax, Stieb, Sutton (if you value peak)

Where the only "close call" is Koufax/Stieb with both.
   7. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: February 21, 2017 at 02:14 PM (#5405928)
When I was a kid, Clemens, Stieb, Dave Steart, Bret Saberhagen and Frank Viola for a bit were considered the best pitchers in the AL. Not Jack Morris. Morris was just a guy.
   8. Cargo Cultist Posted: February 21, 2017 at 03:39 PM (#5406061)
I watched baseball in the eighties and Stieb was considered essentially a non-entity.

In today's game he'd be the rough equivalent of Jeremy Hellickson.
   9. SoSH U at work Posted: February 21, 2017 at 03:44 PM (#5406072)
I watched baseball in the eighties and Stieb was considered essentially a non-entity.


What arrant nonsense. He was a 7-time All-Star, starting the game in back-to-back seasons. I don't know what you were watching in the 1980s, but it sure as hell wasn't AL baseball.

Then again, Retro's claim that Morris was "just a guy," isn't a whole lot better.

   10. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: February 21, 2017 at 03:50 PM (#5406078)
I remember Stieb flirting with a no-hitter just about every season, and being the ace for some very good Jays teams.
   11. karlmagnus Posted: February 21, 2017 at 03:54 PM (#5406083)
The HOM elected Stieb, for what it's worth. And Clemens and Saberhagen, but not Morris.
   12. -- Posted: February 21, 2017 at 03:56 PM (#5406084)
What arrant nonsense. He was a 7-time All-Star, starting the game in back-to-back seasons. I don't know what you were watching in the 1980s, but it sure as hell wasn't AL baseball.

Then again, Retro's claim that Morris was "just a guy," isn't a whole lot better.


Forget it, Jake -- it's Chinatown.
   13. Ithaca2323 Posted: February 21, 2017 at 04:00 PM (#5406088)
In today's game he'd be the rough equivalent of Jeremy Hellickson.


According to bWAR, Stieb was the best pitcher in the American League by far in 1982 (7.7 to 5.7), and 1983 (7.0 to 5.5) and more narrowly in 1984 (7.9 to 7.2). In today's game, he probably has two Cy Youngs, maybe three.

Stieb still falls short for me, as I'm more of a career voter, and his 57.5 WAR put him on the outside for me. But he's a better pitcher than he's given credit for
   14. Rally Posted: February 21, 2017 at 04:08 PM (#5406094)
In today's game he'd be the rough equivalent of Jeremy Hellickson.


That is a brilliant comparison. They really are close. If Hellickson pitched 50-100 innings more per year, had an ERA+ 25-30 points better, and won 5 more games per season his career would fit right into Steib's prime.
   15. TDF, trained monkey Posted: February 21, 2017 at 04:10 PM (#5406099)
When I was a kid, Clemens, Stieb, Dave Steart, Bret Saberhagen and Frank Viola for a bit were considered the best pitchers in the AL. Not Jack Morris. Morris was just a guy.
I was a young adult in the '80s (I was born in '62).

Clemens was head and shoulders above the others, then Saberhagen, and then Steib/Stewart/Viola/Morris. Morris was much more than "just a guy".
   16. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 21, 2017 at 04:19 PM (#5406108)
What arrant nonsense. He was a 7-time All-Star, starting the game in back-to-back seasons. I don't know what you were watching in the 1980s, but it sure as hell wasn't AL baseball.

Concur. Bonus points for using "arrant" correctly.
   17. TDF, trained monkey Posted: February 21, 2017 at 04:26 PM (#5406116)
Bonus points for using "arrant" correctly.
I assumed he misspelled "arrogant" (though that wouldn't really make sense).

So I learned something today!
   18. karlmagnus Posted: February 21, 2017 at 04:31 PM (#5406123)
TDF, it depends when in the '80s. I was an intermittent follower of baseball back then (in UK a lot of the time) but in '82-84 Stieb was the biggie and Clemens hadn't really registered yet.
   19. SoSH U at work Posted: February 21, 2017 at 04:44 PM (#5406141)
Clemens hadn't really registered yet.


The only way he could have is you were a UT fan. He didn't debut until May 84.
   20. Booey Posted: February 21, 2017 at 04:59 PM (#5406154)
Then again, Retro's claim that Morris was "just a guy", isn't a whole lot better.


I guess it depends on how you want to define "just a guy." I didn't start following baseball until the late 80's, so maybe The Jack was held in higher regard during the Tigers championship season or thereabouts, but I never thought of Morris as a major star. It never even crossed my mind that he might be a HOF candidate. He was always just a pretty good pitcher to me, similar to how I viewed say, David Wells, in the 90's.

I guess "pretty good" is still a higher level than "just a guy" though, isn't it?
   21. Jeff R. Posted: February 21, 2017 at 04:59 PM (#5406155)
I've gotta say, I never thought I would ever read a story about Dave Stieb and Pat Hentgen talking about WAR.
   22. GGC Posted: February 21, 2017 at 05:00 PM (#5406158)
I was a young adult in the '80s (I was born in '62).

Clemens was head and shoulders above the others, then Saberhagen, and then Steib/Stewart/Viola/Morris. Morris was much more than "just a guy".


What about Doc and Fernando?
   23. TDF, trained monkey Posted: February 21, 2017 at 05:16 PM (#5406178)
What about Doc and Fernando?
I thought we were talking about AL.

Gooden was the NL version of Clemens, Fernando between them and Saberhagen.
I was an intermittent follower of baseball back then (in UK a lot of the time) but in '82-84 Stieb was the biggie and Clemens hadn't really registered yet.
Yeah, Clemens was behind those guys by a few years, but he was so awesome from '86 on that (in hindsight**) he overshadows them.

**As in, I more clearly remember him from that time as a star.
I didn't start following baseball until the late 80's, so maybe The Jack was held in higher regard during the Tigers championship season or thereabouts, but I never thought of Morris as a major star.
I lived in Detroit from '81-93, and the feeling I got was that Morris and Petry were 1 and 1a. It was funny - Morris always started opening day, but at the end of the season it seemed they were interchangeable. From '82-85, Petry was 67-41 (.620) with a 3.45 ERA; Morris 72-51 (.585) with a 3.58 ERA. Now that was clearly Petry's peak (he was otherwise 42-52 in Detroit) while Morris was good for much longer (he won 194 games from '79-90 in Detoit), but over that time they were pretty similar and everyone realized it.
   24. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 21, 2017 at 05:19 PM (#5406183)
He was always just a pretty good pitcher to me, similar to how I viewed say, David Wells, in the 90's.

Of course Wells has a better HoF resume than Morris. 10 more WAR, 12 more WAA, better ERA+, better W%, better post-season pitching.
   25. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 21, 2017 at 05:25 PM (#5406190)
Morris was much more than "just a guy".
He was indeed. At the same time, nobody thought he was the best pitcher in the league. Obviously not sabermetrically, but he was never close to winning a Cy, either. (He had a couple of third place finishes, but was nowhere close to the winner in those years.) He was a workhorse, the ace of the Tigers staff, dependable, durable, etc. But until that Game Seven, nobody was listing Morris as their "one guy I'd most want to start a game for me" choice.
   26. Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: February 21, 2017 at 05:34 PM (#5406199)
Geez, people talk about Dave Stieb like he was some superstar or something. Yes, Stieb was easily the best pitcher of the 80s by WAR (48.2, 10 more than Blyleven)...the problem is that the 80s (and 1990) is everything Stieb has to sell. His career WAR of 57 puts him in the conversation, but there's not much meat on those bones -- he pitched for mostly terrible teams and never came close to a CY or an MVP. 176 wins, less than 3,000 IP.

Er, he was a superstar. The fact that his career was destroyed in fluky fashion before he could add bulk doesn't undo that.
   27. JohnQ Posted: February 21, 2017 at 05:39 PM (#5406200)
Dave Steib was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. He came up on a terrible expansion team playing in one of the best hitter's parks in baseball. He suffered from poor run support during his best seasons. The Blue Jays were odd too because they built a team around pitching & defense while they played in a hitter's park.

Steib really suffered from poor run support early on:

1980: 3.8 runs/GS, 45/56 among A.L. starters
1981: 2.8 runs/GS, 57/60 among A.L. starters
1982: 3.9 runs/GS, 47/59 among A.L. starters
1983: 4.4 runs/GS, 24/57 among A.L. starters
1984: 4.2 runs/GS, 34/58 among A.L. starters
1985: 4.5 runs/GS, 27/55 among A.L. starters.

There wasn't really an overwhelming A.L. candidate for Cy Young between 1981-84. Two times a reliever won it. You could make a case with some better run support, Steib could have won 2-3 Cy Youngs easily.

1982 really hurt because it was up for grabs same thing for 1984.

His neutralized stats have him as a 20 game winner in 1982 & 84 and a 19 game winner in 1983 & 85 and an 18 game winner during the strike of '81.
   28. Rob_Wood Posted: February 21, 2017 at 05:52 PM (#5406208)
According to my Win Values stat which estimates how much value a starting pitcher provides his team based upon the game-by-game run support and runs allowed, Stieb was the best starting pitcher in the AL in both 1982 and 1984.
   29. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: February 21, 2017 at 06:12 PM (#5406215)
Deserves got nothing to do with it.
   30. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: February 21, 2017 at 06:14 PM (#5406216)
Bonus points for using "arrant" correctly.


I get this one wrong every time. Usually what happens is that I go to spell it "arrant" and then convince myself that that's backwards, it's "errant", and I got it wrong the other way around last time . . . sigh.

Anyway, Stieb pitched like a superstar for several years. His win totals weren't that great and Exhibition Stadium was a bit of a hitter's park, so it wasn't obvious at the time. Then he was more or less done at 32, which is the main reason he doesn't pop up in Hall arguments more often. If he'd declined gracefully, instead of going from ace to non-entity over the course of one off-season (one injury? I was too young at the time to know), he'd be at about 80 WAR and this discussion would be about whether or not he was better than Mike Mussina.
   31. RJ in TO Posted: February 21, 2017 at 06:59 PM (#5406240)
If he'd declined gracefully, instead of going from ace to non-entity over the course of one off-season (one injury? I was too young at the time to know), he'd be at about 80 WAR and this discussion would be about whether or not he was better than Mike Mussina.


It was a back injury caused by a collision while covering 1B. He had surgery to fix it, but it caused him to change his motion, which caused problems with tendonitis, which caused his retirement. If he gets to first base a second earlier or a second later, he likely goes on to pitch at least a few more effective years, and looks like a lot better candidate for the Hall.
   32. Howie Menckel Posted: February 21, 2017 at 08:15 PM (#5406293)
I think at HOM we found that Stieb got the worst run support in history, or modern history.

It helped him stagger into the HOM as one of the end-of-bench "hey, there are 60 bums in the HOF and someone has to fill these slots!" Saberhagen got in as well, but not exactly resounding support. roster filler
   33. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: February 21, 2017 at 09:30 PM (#5406334)

It helped him stagger into the HOM as one of the end-of-bench "hey, there are 60 bums in the HOF and someone has to fill these slots!" Saberhagen got in as well, but not exactly resounding support. roster filler

Yeah, Stieb being in the HOM (as well as Cone, Saberhagen, Appier - I don't remember which ones the HOM elected) strike me as decent examples of why the HOF is a bit too large.
   34. Random Transaction Generator Posted: February 21, 2017 at 09:59 PM (#5406351)
I remember Stieb flirting with a no-hitter just about every season


Because he pretty much did for three years in a row. His autobiography was called "Tomorrow I'll Be Perfect", and it was published in 1986. From 1988-1990, he had 11 starts with a game score of 80+.

1988:

May 31st - complete game 1-hit
Sept 24th - complete game 1-hit, gives up the only hit with two outs and two strikes in the 9th inning
Sept 30th (next and last start of season) - complete game 1-hit, gives up the only hit with two outs and two strikes in the 9th inning...again.

1989:

April 10th (2nd start of season) - complete game 1-hit
Aug 26th - complete game 1-hit (infield hit)

1990:

Sept 2nd - no-hitter


   35. ptodd Posted: February 21, 2017 at 11:16 PM (#5406376)
I've always liked the idea of a HOF by decade but get stuck on how to handle players who spanned decades and only had like 6-7 years in each decade
   36. Ken Griffey Junior Bacon Cheeseburger Posted: February 21, 2017 at 11:29 PM (#5406385)
1989:

April 10th (2nd start of season) - complete game 1-hit
Aug 26th - complete game 1-hit (infield hit)


And then there's the Roberto Kelly Game
   37. Howie Menckel Posted: February 21, 2017 at 11:35 PM (#5406386)
Yeah, Stieb being in the HOM (as well as Cone, Saberhagen, Appier - I don't remember which ones the HOM elected) strike me as decent examples of why the HOF is a bit too large.

that is a little-known point, I think - we matched their number and imo our picks are better, if not slam dunks for HOF even on merit alone.
   38. Shrike Posted: February 22, 2017 at 02:04 AM (#5406402)
Well, #8 made me want to throw something. There's that. Arrant nonsense, indeed!

(Probably because I grew up in Toronto in the late 70s and early 80s. Stieb was my favourite player.)
   39. bjhanke Posted: February 22, 2017 at 03:54 AM (#5406409)
Most - #30 - Here's the way I keep "arrant" and "errant" straight - "errant" means that you screwed up. "Arrant" means that you think someone else has screwed up.

JOHNQ - #27 - I did a couple of studies some years ago, and came to the conclusion that teams in hitters' parks do better when they build around pitching and defense, while teams in pitchers' parks do better building around hitting. Not sure why, although the old Bill James observation that a team in a hitters' park will tend to overrate the hitters they have, while a team in a pitchers' park will tend to overrate their pitchers, sounds just about right.

AROM - #14 - A+ for snark.

- Brock Hanke
   40. JohnQ Posted: February 22, 2017 at 12:17 PM (#5406664)
From bjhanke:


JOHNQ - #27 - I did a couple of studies some years ago, and came to the conclusion that teams in hitters' parks do better when they build around pitching and defense, while teams in pitchers' parks do better building around hitting. Not sure why, although the old Bill James observation that a team in a hitters' park will tend to overrate the hitters they have, while a team in a pitchers' park will tend to overrate their pitchers, sounds just about right


Is that true? I remember Bill James used to call this the Fenway Factor. That would seem counterintuitive. James always used to say that the Red Sox big problem would be that they always overrated the value of their hitters and underrated their pitchers because of the ballpark.

It always seemed like the Blue Jays had a really good deep bullpen from the early 80's-early 90's. They had Heinke, Ward and Eichhorn. Eichhorn had that crazy season in 1986 where he was about 5 innings away from leading the A.L. in era 1.72, and whip 0.955.

The 1980-82 teams were just terrible, basically just Steib & Jim Clancy. What's strange about Steib is the poor run support he received from 1983-1985 when they actually had a good hitting team.

In 1981, he went 2-2 with a NoDec in 5 games with only 1 earned run. He had a NoDec and a loss in 2 games with only 2 earned runs.

In 1982, he pitched an 11 inning 1 run game and had a NoDec. He had 2 NoDec in games with 2 earned runs. He went 1-3 and 1 NoDec in 3 earned run games.

In 1983, he went 1-2 with 3 NoDec. in games where he gave up 2 earned runs. He actually had a no-decision when he pitched a 9 inning shut-out. He should have easily won 20 games in 1983.

In 1984 he went 2-3 with 2 NoDec in games where he gave up 2 earned runs. He actually had 2 no decision when he pitched 7 innings. Once only giving up 1 run another 0 runs.

In 1985 he went 3-4 with 3 NoDe in games where he gave up 2 earned runs. He went 4-1 with 3 NoDec in games where he only gave up 1 earned run. He also had a NoDec with 0 runs.
   41. Dennis Eclairskey, closer Posted: February 22, 2017 at 01:41 PM (#5406734)
Dave Stieb was one of those guys that was around when I started collected baseball cards in the mid 80s & whose name I couldn't get right. I called him Dabe Steve or Dabe Stieb. Him and Dennis Eclairskey were two I had trouble with. I was a Jimmy Key fan, so as a child, the staff ace Stieb was sorta of villain to me since my older friend would tell me he was better than Key

My early days of viewing someone as dominant or HOF level was based on who was got an All-Star card and who was one of the two main players spotlighted in the sticker book with a larger sticker
   42. Dennis Eclairskey, closer Posted: February 22, 2017 at 01:51 PM (#5406744)
Stieb did get robbed of many wins in the early 80s but probably made up for it in the late 80s

81-85 75-57 record .568 W/L 2.95 ERA 144 ERA+
88-90 51-22 record .699 W/L 3.11 ERA 125 ERA+

Also, after 85 he maxed out at 208.2 inn
   43. Dennis Eclairskey, closer Posted: February 22, 2017 at 01:59 PM (#5406756)
It's funny because I was comparing Stieb to Cone before the article came out. Cone is right at my personal HOF bordeline while Stieb is shy. Of the sub 3000/just over 3000 innings group of Cone, Stieb, Saberhagen & Hershiser, I'd probably have Cone as barely HOF, Hershiser next but short (I think if he wins a WS game in 97 & Cleveland gets the title then he'd be over the line for me), and then Stieb and Sabes just behind

Saberhagen, I remember had the odd/even year thing against him & he was disappointing in NY for a very disappointing team. He also didn't pitch 200 inn in any season after his 89 CY year but he did have a great strike shortened 94
   44. Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handle Posted: February 23, 2017 at 08:43 AM (#5407206)
Prior to his disastrous 2000, Cone had a career record of 180-102 w/3.19 ERA & 129 ERA+

Cone will make for a good Today's Game candidate when he's eligible. Aside from Kevin Brown (who has PED issues), there aren't really many pitching candidates eligible for that particular era who have a HOF case as good as Cone's
   45. Batman Posted: February 23, 2017 at 10:20 AM (#5407253)
I'm a White Sox fan, and Stieb seemed to throw a one-hitter against them every week. He ended up 21-5 against them with a 1.92 ERA in about a season's worth of innings. Then they picked him up and he kept hurting them.
   46. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: February 23, 2017 at 11:41 AM (#5407312)
I called him Dabe Steve or Dabe Stieb.

That...doesn't even make any sense.

It's like my girlfriend and song lyrics. She doesn't really know the lyrics to any songs (in English anyway...she's 95% fluent but is a native Spanish speaker). She makes up her own words that she thinks she hears, but often replaces perfectly straightforward lyrics with ones that make no sense whatsoever. Case in point: "Do You Love Me" from the Dirty Dancing soundtrack. She always sings "I can barely move" instead of "I can really move" for the backing vocals. Huh??
   47. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: February 23, 2017 at 11:56 AM (#5407332)
I consider myself pretty strong in vocabulary, but arrant was a new word for me. Learned something new!
   48. Dennis Eclairskey, closer Posted: February 23, 2017 at 03:14 PM (#5407519)
I called him Dabe Steve or Dabe Stieb

That...doesn't even make any sense.


Haha-Yep not at all. I was about 8 & that's where Dennis Eclairskey comes from too. My sister liked Eclairs & we probably combined Eck's name with Greg Luzunski's

It's too bad Stieb was a non factor in the Jays well overdue 92 WS winner.
   49. GGC Posted: February 23, 2017 at 03:25 PM (#5407529)
Stieb was one of the guys who was teammates of both Bo Jackson and Danny Ainge.
   50. Rally Posted: February 23, 2017 at 03:46 PM (#5407548)
Looks like George Bell is one. Are there any others?
   51. DavidFoss Posted: February 23, 2017 at 04:07 PM (#5407574)
Looks like George Bell is one. Are there any others?

According to the Oracle of Baseball, no. It is only Dave Stieb and George Bell.
   52. SoSH U at work Posted: February 23, 2017 at 04:21 PM (#5407593)
According to the Oracle of Baseball, no. It is only Dave Stieb and George Bell.


They were both also teammates of Kirk McCaskill.
   53. GGC Posted: February 23, 2017 at 04:50 PM (#5407632)
Nice, SoSH. I think Dan Pasqua is one guy who was teammates with Jackson and Jordan, but it's been a while since I liked that up. The 1990s White Sox are the nexus of the sports universe.
   54. Batman Posted: February 23, 2017 at 06:12 PM (#5407732)
Nice, SoSH. I think Dan Pasqua is one guy who was teammates with Jackson and Jordan, but it's been a while since I liked that up. The 1990s White Sox are the nexus of the sports universe.
Julio Franco was there right in the middle of the decade, so it checks out.

Steve Sax played with Jordan, Bo, and Deion Sanders.
   55. snowles Posted: February 23, 2017 at 06:46 PM (#5407752)
It's amazing on a team that has featured peak-Stieb, and multiple Cy Youngs from Halladay, Clemens and Hentgen Dave still has the only no-hitter in 40 years of Blue Jays history. Halladay (in his first ever start) and Brandon Morrow (a ball that just went by Aaron Hill) both came one batter away; Marco Estrada has flirted with it on multiple occasions over the past couple of years.

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