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Tuesday, June 24, 2014

David Ortiz apologizes for bashing official scorer; call reversed

In any event, Ortiz got his hit, as official scorer Bob Ellis on Monday switched his ruling from an error to a hit.

Let the baby have his bottle.

Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: June 24, 2014 at 01:40 AM | 24 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: big whiny baby, bs, david ortiz, red sox

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   1. stanmvp48 Posted: June 24, 2014 at 08:52 AM (#4734197)
I never actually saw this play. How should it have been scored?
   2. The Robby Hammock District (Dan Lee) Posted: June 24, 2014 at 08:58 AM (#4734198)
There's a GIF in the link. Looks like an error to me, but whatever.
   3. stanmvp48 Posted: June 24, 2014 at 09:06 AM (#4734203)
To me, as well.
   4. JE (Jason) Posted: June 24, 2014 at 09:14 AM (#4734208)
"All I have to say is I know I owe an apology to MLB, Mr. Joe Torre, even the scorekeeping guys. I know that I had frustration come out that way, and that's not what you really want. You don't want things to be like that and everything. But this has been a season already that has been jam-packed with frustration. At the end of the day, our job is based on results. I sit down and watch that TV every night after the game and I go 0-for-4, and all people talk and ##### about is why I'm not hitting .300. We are a family that of course needs to protect each other. The whole week has been about me protecting over a hit. There's a lot of people mad at me because I argued something that I didn't think I should get. I don't blame them. I'm not apologizing just because I got that result. It's because the message was spread out based on frustration. That's why I'm apologizing.”
(Emphasis mine.)

Well, there's your problem right there, Papi.
   5. An Athletic in Powderhorn™ Posted: June 24, 2014 at 09:22 AM (#4734215)
MLB exec Joe Torre let Ortiz know in unambiguous terms that his comments were not acceptable.
[...]
In any event, Ortiz got his hit, as official scorer Bob Ellis on Monday switched his ruling from an error to a hit.
Make up your mind, MLB. "Complaining about scoring decisions is unacceptable, and will get you your way" is not the clearest of messages.
   6. cardsfanboy Posted: June 24, 2014 at 11:37 AM (#4734314)
There's a GIF in the link. Looks like an error to me, but whatever.


Two steps to the fielders right, hits the glove and bounces out with a molasses runner...and somehow, someone, somewhere thought that was a base hit? Wow....Just wow. I doubt even Red Sox fans thought that was a hit. I doubt Ortiz's mother would have thought that was a hit. Heck if it doesn't hit the first baseman's glove the second baseman was backing him up and would have had it. If that happened in a over 40 softball league, they would have called it an error.
   7. Ray (RDP) Posted: June 24, 2014 at 01:24 PM (#4734428)
It was an error and he's a whiner. But, whatevs.
   8. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: June 24, 2014 at 01:34 PM (#4734443)
Given the way scoring works I think that's a hit. It should be an error but any play a player has to move more than one step for is usually ruled a hit.
   9. Greg Pope thinks the Cubs are reeking havoc Posted: June 24, 2014 at 02:18 PM (#4734560)
How long before we can just do away with errors altogether? We penalize for poor hands, but not poor range. A great first baseman scoops up a bad throw, and the SS gets a putout where a lesser first baseman who doesn't come up with it and the SS gets an error. Plus, it's getting more and more subjective.

A guy's defense is his defense, just call it a made play or not and be done with it.
   10. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: June 24, 2014 at 02:26 PM (#4734577)
I like errors well enough. Like so many statistics it's just a matter of how they get used. I think there is value in knowing who makes the plays they get to reliably as opposed to guys who are flashier but unreliable. It's not perfect but no stat is.
   11. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: June 24, 2014 at 02:30 PM (#4734584)
How long before we can just do away with errors altogether?


Hopefully never. The idea that the Buckner play or the Castillo play or any number of undeniable defensive ####### should be labeled a BIP-BRS* is an abomination, not to mention the horror of that empty last column on the line score.

* Ball in Play, Batter Reached Safely.
   12. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: June 24, 2014 at 02:35 PM (#4734598)
but any play a player has to move more than one step for is usually ruled a hit.
That's a bit of an overstatement, isn't it?

And in any case it looks to me like he basically took one step and then it was easily within backhand reach, he wasn't close to full extension. And he didn't even have to field it cleanly, he just needed to not miss it entirely, and not deflect it as far away as he did, and Ortiz is out. I don't see how that's not an error.
   13. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: June 24, 2014 at 02:52 PM (#4734625)
That's a bit of an overstatement, isn't it?


A bit but not too much. At a scorer's panel at the SABR convention a couple years ago they noted that scorers were told to always give the benefit of the doubt to the hitter.

For what it's worth I keep score at every game I go to (about 25-30 a year) so I pay a lot of attention to how things are scored. That sort of play is more often than not ruled a hit. Watch the gif in the story, it's hit relatively sharply and Mauer goes to his knees to try to backhand the ball. When a fielder does that it is almost always ruled a hit. I'll agree that it's a play a better first baseman makes fairly easily and if you think it SHOULD be an error I won't argue but I think it's a hit based on how games are routinely scored.

It's not dissimilar to the play in the Darvish near-no hitter (also with Ortiz up). You can argue it should be an error but it is the type of play that is routinely scored a hit.
   14. villageidiom Posted: June 24, 2014 at 03:21 PM (#4734655)
My initial view was that it should have been ruled an error. After Ortiz's whining, I still thought it should have been ruled an error. The revised ruling has led me to reconsider if I had it wrong. And I admit I'm torn.

On the one hand, he got a glove on the ball, but didn't field it; and without his doing so someone else (the 2B, out in the outfield grass) likely would have made the play. That seems like an error.

On the other hand, how often does someone hit the ground to field a ball, does not field it cleanly, and it results in an error? I'm thinking most of the time it's a hit. (EDIT: I see Jose has weighed in as well.) When it is ruled an error, it's when it was fielded cleanly but the player loses the ball on the transfer or throws it away. But that's not what happened here.

I've looked at Mauer vs. the 2B to see if Mauer is slow to react. They seem to move at the same time.

I've looked to see if Mauer could have fielded it without hitting the ground. I'm not convinced he could have. As Benji mentions above he took one step, but look more closely. He only had time to drop to his knees to his right and extend his arm another 4 feet from there. This was a hard-hit ball. The more I look at this, the more questionable I think "ordinary effort" is.

So, yeah, I'm torn.
   15. cardsfanboy Posted: June 24, 2014 at 03:27 PM (#4734668)
For what it's worth I keep score at every game I go to (about 25-30 a year) so I pay a lot of attention to how things are scored. That sort of play is more often than not ruled a hit. Watch the gif in the story, it's hit relatively sharply and Mauer goes to his knees to try to backhand the ball. When a fielder does that it is almost always ruled a hit. I'll agree that it's a play a better first baseman makes fairly easily and if you think it SHOULD be an error I won't argue but I think it's a hit based on how games are routinely scored.


I pay attention, and I just don't think I've ever seen a play liked that scored a hit. For it to be called a hit on a ball off the glove, it usually requires one of the following. 1. fast runner on a play that was likely to be close 2. the fielder ranged multiple steps 3. a noticeable bad hop. A routine hard hit ball by a backhand, which is exactly what this play was, isn't a base hit if it hits the glove by a guy who runs like a slug.

Third baseman get called errors all the time on plays just like this.
   16. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: June 24, 2014 at 05:59 PM (#4734823)
As Robert's intro correctly points out, babies cry and usually people give them what they want.
   17. tfbg9 Posted: June 24, 2014 at 06:36 PM (#4734838)
Why was the scoring decision reversed?

Two words people:

George Mitchell.
   18. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: June 25, 2014 at 12:04 AM (#4735008)
Given the way scoring works I think that's a hit.


True, but still doesn't make it right.

It's an error. It's a playable ball that should have converted into an out.

Then again I think if a pop up drops between 3 fielders that are making a combined $30 mil per year it should be an error even if no one touched it. I'm talking about those ones you get every so often were it's quite clear that at least 2 of them could have made the play easily.
   19. madvillain Posted: June 25, 2014 at 12:43 AM (#4735025)
@18, you need a team error for that.
   20. cardsfanboy Posted: June 25, 2014 at 12:49 AM (#4735026)
I fully support the team error concept....and to be perfectly honest, I think there is a small, but decent chance, it's going to happen in the next 10 years.
   21. AuntBea Posted: June 25, 2014 at 12:57 AM (#4735030)
you need a team error for that.
Do you? When I was a player a long long time ago I seem to recall being told that ultimate responsibility for plays that two fielders could make ultimately belonged to one party, who was assigned before the play (by type, for example pop-up to the infield) arose. A normal example is a popup between the infield and the outfield, that both players can reach. If there is any doubt, the infielder is supposed to call off the outfielder (or anyway that's how it was taught to us when I was young). The point of these assignments was to ensure that plays that could be made by two players were actually all in fact made. If the play was not made, the player that had been assigned (ahead of time, per type of play) was ultimately responsible. Whether or not such rules exist at the major league level (and they probably do for the most part) they could be scored that way with relatively little overall impact on player defensive statistics.

Or, you could just leave the assignment up to the official scorer's discretion. It can't be any more wrong than assigning no error at all.
   22. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: June 25, 2014 at 01:04 AM (#4735033)
18 - I don't really disagree but then score it that way consistently. And I'm with cfb I think the team error will be implemented at some point. In fact I wouldn't be stunned if the Darvish game is the impetus for it happening this off season.
   23. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: June 25, 2014 at 01:05 AM (#4735034)
Do you? When I was a player a long long time ago I seem to recall being told that ultimate responsibility for plays that two fielders could make ultimately belonged to one party, who was assigned before the play (by type, for example pop-up to the infield) arose. A normal example is a popup between the infield and the outfield, that both players can reach. If there is any doubt, the infielder is supposed to call off the outfielder (or anyway that's how it was taught to us when I was young).


I think the outfielder calls off the infielder since he's the one coming in and has the easier play, but I do agree with the larger point. Baseball scorekeepers can assign errors without the team error concept - just pick the guy you feel was most responsible, even if he wasn't entirely responsible.

However, it doesn't appear that scorekeepers are a) going to do that or b) MLB will let them if they try (see the previous Ortiz flap on Darvish's near no-hitter). As such, MLB would be wise to either institute the team error to deal with plays such as these, or introduce the shared error concept (three guys converge on a pop-up and no one catches the sumbitch, then they each get 1/3 of an error).

Whether it's assigning individual responsibility, shared responsibility or tossing it onto the team pile, I'd like to see balls that should be turned into outs by the defense labeled with the E they deserve.

   24. cardsfanboy Posted: June 25, 2014 at 01:09 AM (#4735036)
The reason I think there is a possibility of team error, is that I'm pretty sure I've heard the league talk about that as something to look into in the future(mind you, TLR was part of the league at the time---and mind you, I still think they are going to eventually implement visitor team rules on the second game of interleague series, even though it's been about 3 years since the last time Bud has talked about it.)

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