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Thursday, May 11, 2017

David Ortiz Calls Out Bobby Valentine In New Book: “Aggravating As Hell, Arrogant And Disrespectful

As excerpted by Sports Illustrated this week, Ortiz’s book describes Valentine as unreasonable and impossible to communicate with:

The drama began almost immediately in spring training. I remember fighting the thought, very early, We’re going to have an absolutely terrible year.

It was all about him in the spring. It was as if he wanted to prove how smart he was by running us through all these drills he’d used while managing in Japan, drills we had never done before. Bobby was in his own bubble, and I just wanted to get him out of it and tell him, “Fuck you.”

[...]

One day we were doing his drills and the #### hit the fan. We were hitting pop-ups, and Bobby had said that he didn’t want infielders to say, “I’ve got it, I’ve got it. . . .” He thought that was an unreliable way of calling off a teammate because, in a noisy stadium, the player who’s being called off might not hear his teammate taking control. Well, all players have habits. And in American baseball, most infielders taking the play say, “I got it.”


So when our shortstop, Mike Aviles, got under a ball, he instinctively said, “I got it.” Bobby snapped. It was unlike anything I had ever seen in the majors. He went off on Aviles, cussing and verbally tearing him down in front of everyone. If it had been me, I would have gone up to him, right in front of the fans and dropped a punch
.

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: May 11, 2017 at 10:12 PM | 65 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: bobby valentine, books, david ortiz, red sox

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   1. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: May 11, 2017 at 10:53 PM (#5453957)
So when our shortstop, Mike Aviles,


So I'm a reasonably dedicated Red Sox fan, nothing like Jose or some of the others here, but I must admit I don't remember the Mike Aviles era...at all.
   2. The Yankee Clapper Posted: May 11, 2017 at 11:11 PM (#5453963)
Bobby had said that he didn’t want infielders to say, “I’ve got it, I’ve got it. . . .” He thought that was an unreliable way of calling off a teammate because, in a noisy stadium, the player who’s being called off might not hear his teammate taking control.

We're left in suspense as to what was Valentine's preferred substitute for "I GOT IT!". That's probably not enough to get me to buy the book. Nice try.
   3. Rob_Wood Posted: May 11, 2017 at 11:18 PM (#5453965)
I thought it was somehow going to be a callback to "ya lo tengo" (or maybe the Japanese version).
   4. Howie Menckel Posted: May 11, 2017 at 11:28 PM (#5453971)
I dealt with Valentine directly, and he is/was an #######. but he also produced, and got as many guys to peak as he lost others. bottom line, he was a good manager, and anyone who can't admit that - even if you dealt with him - strikes me as petty.

NHL's Mike Keenan, I also dealt with that, is a great comp. it ain't tiddlywinks.

and no I don't think either did a great job in every season. who has?
   5. cardsfanboy Posted: May 12, 2017 at 12:07 AM (#5453987)
I'll take Ortiz and Gretzky's take on managers over a reporters everyday of the week.

I get that they might have once gotten good results, in a particular situation or two....Keenan and Valentine are more about themselves than they are the team.. They can get a one year buy in time to time from players, but they are not going to have sustained runs or turn a veteran team around.
(heck Kennan's record after his first few years hasn't been remarkable at all.)
   6. Dillon Gee Escape Plan Posted: May 12, 2017 at 01:22 AM (#5454002)
So I'm a reasonably dedicated Red Sox fan, nothing like Jose or some of the others here, but I must admit I don't remember the Mike Aviles era...at all.


yeah, me neither. I kinda forgot that Cody Ross and Ryan Sweeney were once starting outfielders as well (even though the former was pretty decent). I do remember Ross's walk-off against the White Sox though.
   7. Leroy Kincaid Posted: May 12, 2017 at 06:51 AM (#5454021)
Valentine managed the Red Sox? Had to look that one up.
   8. PreservedFish Posted: May 12, 2017 at 07:04 AM (#5454024)
Bobby V did some good things in NY and I was a fan. He was certainly arrogant. There was a big SI article about him where he said that 5-6 of his players were ########, or something like that, which caused a lot of really unnecessary controversy. He was a very clever tactician but sometimes the team might've been better off with a hands off approach.

I still remember this sequence in the 1999 NLCS as particularly odd. This was the game that ended with Robin Ventura's "grand single." Had to look up the details of course:

2 outs. Turk Wendell is pitching to Brian Jordan, with Otis Nixon on first. Klesko on deck.
Nixon steals second base.
Bobby V replaces Turk Wendell, in the middle of the AB, with lefty Dennis Cook.
Cook IBBs Jordan.
The Braves announce that righty Brian Hunter will pinch-hit for Klesko.
Bobby replaces Cook with righty Pat Mahomes.
Mahomes gets out of the inning.

Then, Mahomes leads off the 8th, in a tie game. He gets two outs, allows one double, completes a final IBB, and is replaced by John Franco.

If you stuck with that sequence you see that he did one very clever thing. Usually the defense is at the mercy of the offense in setting up matchups - you put in your pitcher and the offense can choose to respond with a pinch-hitter, thereby winning the platoon advantage. By bringing in Cook to complete the IBB, Bobby was then able to remove him from the game without, effectively, pitching to anyone. It's like being able to remove your LOOGY immediately after the offense puts in a pinch-hitter. And thus Cox burned Klesko for no reason.

But surrounding that one clever move, you've got two highly questionable IBBs in a tie game (one of Brian Jordan, the next of Gerald Williams) and the borderline criminal fact that Pat Mahomes, a reliever, was leading off the 8th inning. And the game ended up going 15, and I bet they would've liked to have Cook throw more than a couple pitches.
   9. Jose is El Absurd Pollo Posted: May 12, 2017 at 08:15 AM (#5454035)
I said it at the time of his hiring, Valentine's record can look really good or really bad depending on how you parse the data. He took teams to higher peaks than they had been to in quite some time (Rangers, Mets) or alternatively he was just good enough to come up short finishing second a lot but never first.

Regardless of what you think, I tend to be more of the positive side of that one, he was the wrong guy for the Sox. It was obvious very early in the season that he was out of his element and while he'd been successful in Japan he'd been away from the US game too long I think.

As for Ortiz' comments, I'm not surprised and frankly I'm not that interested. This is a good way to get some publicity for the book but as a Sox fan of all the things I want Ortiz' take on, the Bobby Valentine year is pretty far down the list.
   10. AROM Posted: May 12, 2017 at 08:29 AM (#5454038)
Valentine may have been a good manager for the Mets and Rangers, but he was clearly past his prime with the Red Sox. It was a train wreck. And from my perspective, a joyous thing to behold. I wish they had given him another year or 10.

It's hard to remember the details but he made a lot of tactical mistakes that year, things that he probably wouldn't have done 10-20 years earlier. But those are minor details compared to the way he alienated the whole team. I remember him calling out Youkilis for not being healthy enough to play or something. Youk was a guy who gave the game everything he had and his body was breaking down, he deserved a lot better from the organization than to have Valentine come out of nowhere and start that.

I love sports bios so I'll download Ortiz's book.
   11. Howie Menckel Posted: May 12, 2017 at 08:53 AM (#5454050)
I agree that he did a terrible job in Boston.
   12. zack Posted: May 12, 2017 at 09:26 AM (#5454075)
Iron Mike even won a Gagarin Cup (KHL championship) for another similarity to Valentine.
   13. JJ1986 Posted: May 12, 2017 at 09:29 AM (#5454080)
The colon after 'book' makes it sound like Ortiz has written something with a very odd title.
   14. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: May 12, 2017 at 09:48 AM (#5454094)

So I'm a reasonably dedicated Red Sox fan, nothing like Jose or some of the others here, but I must admit I don't remember the Mike Aviles era...at all.


Became the starting SS after the Sox traded the last year of Marco Scutaro (a 2.5 WAR SS) for two years of Clayton Mortenson. A slumping Aviles was phased out at the end of the season by Jose Iglesias and was eventually traded to the Jays for Farrell. He did put up 2.5 WAR for the Sox though. It's sort of funny how the Sox have managed to find decent replacements at SS, but can't do #### about 3rd.
   15. Captain Supporter Posted: May 12, 2017 at 09:50 AM (#5454095)
To me the real story here is the continuing lack of class that David Ortiz continues to show. If you can't say something nice....
   16. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: May 12, 2017 at 09:50 AM (#5454096)
Still think of David Ortiz as a Minnesota Twin. How long was he in Boston?
   17. Jose is El Absurd Pollo Posted: May 12, 2017 at 09:57 AM (#5454099)
Still think of David Ortiz as a Minnesota Twin. How long was he in Boston?


That's ridiculous. David Arias is forever a Mariner.
   18. AROM Posted: May 12, 2017 at 09:59 AM (#5454102)
It's sort of funny how the Sox have managed to find decent replacements at SS, but can't do #### about 3rd.


I was thinking the curse of Adrian Beltre? But actually, Youkilis was the starter the last year the Red Sox had better than average third base production. He played above average D there in 2011 while putting up a 123 OPS+. So it's the curse of Youkilis. Bobby should have treated him better. Instead Bobby starts trouble that ends with the Red Sox trading Kevin (and paying much of his salary) to the White Sox and not getting anything useful back.
   19. Jose is El Absurd Pollo Posted: May 12, 2017 at 10:05 AM (#5454108)
The Sox did well with Youk in terms of how long they kept him around. He was done pretty soon after leaving. The problem was;

Middlebrooks sucked
Iglesias was traded
Bogaerts has stuck at shortstop
Sandoval has been a disaster

The first and last of those were fairly predictable and Bogaerts sticking at shortstop is a pleasant development. The hope right now is they fill the hole for this year and then sometime in 2018 Rafael Devers (top 20 MLB prospect) can come up and make the position his own. The thing they are going to have to do is resist what is likely to be pressure from the fanbase to call him up this year ("if Benintendi can do it...").
   20. AROM Posted: May 12, 2017 at 10:06 AM (#5454111)
That's ridiculous. David Arias is forever a Mariner.


He should be celebrated by each of those teams, twice per year on his birthdays (2/18 and 11/18)
   21. JimMusComp likes Billy Eppler.... Posted: May 12, 2017 at 10:15 AM (#5454121)
The colon after 'book' makes it sound like Ortiz has written something with a very odd title.


Totally thought the same thing.
   22. Jose is El Absurd Pollo Posted: May 12, 2017 at 10:20 AM (#5454130)
"Aggravating as Hell, Arrogant and Disrespectful" would not be the worst title for a David Ortiz biography (and I say this as someone who loves the guy).

He should be celebrated by each of those teams, twice per year on his birthdays (2/18 and 11/18)


Did his birthdate change with the name change? I didn't realize that.
   23. JohnQ Posted: May 12, 2017 at 10:35 AM (#5454148)
Bobby V. was a good baseball manager but he was often his own worse enemy. It always felt like Bobby V. had to let everybody know that he was was the smartest baseball man in the room.

He had been out of the majors too long (10 years) when he managed the 2012 Red Sox.
   24. BDC Posted: May 12, 2017 at 10:51 AM (#5454164)
It's been a long time now, but I followed Valentine closely when he managed Texas. He seemed to me an excellent judge of talent, but then often didn't get the most out of that talent, stretching people to do odd things, showing them up and setting them up to fail. Playing Pete Incaviglia in center field was a capsule example. Inky was a slow, awkward corner outfielder, especially for a young guy, but he was maybe passable in LF for a couple of years on his way to 1B or DH. But Valentine gave him 20 starts in CF, over two seasons, sharing time at one point with Gary Pettis – think about that for a minute – as if to say, yeah, you're a young brash slugger, I'll show you something you really can't do. Oddibe McDowell, Bobby Witt, Jerry Browne, too – Valentine had a tough time developing some young prospects.

Just an impression. The talent judgment overshone that flaw, and as Jose says, the Rangers got above .500 when they hadn't been there in a while.
   25. salvomania Posted: May 12, 2017 at 11:17 AM (#5454197)
I do remember Ross's walk-off against the White Sox though.

If it was this game, then I was there with my girlfriend the night I proposed to her. She said, "I guess."
   26. Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: May 12, 2017 at 11:21 AM (#5454205)
David Ortiz Calls Out Bobby Valentine In New Book Holds Up Mirror to Self: “Aggravating As Hell, Arrogant And Disrespectful"
   27. JohnQ Posted: May 12, 2017 at 11:32 AM (#5454217)
From BDC#24:

It's been a long time now, but I followed Valentine closely when he managed Texas. He seemed to me an excellent judge of talent, but then often didn't get the most out of that talent, stretching people to do odd things, showing them up and setting them up to fail. Playing Pete Incaviglia in center field was a capsule example. Inky was a slow, awkward corner outfielder, especially for a young guy, but he was maybe passable in LF for a couple of years on his way to 1B or DH. But Valentine gave him 20 starts in CF, over two seasons, sharing time at one point with Gary Pettis – think about that for a minute – as if to say, yeah, you're a young brash slugger, I'll show you something you really can't do. Oddibe McDowell, Bobby Witt, Jerry Browne, too – Valentine had a tough time developing some young prospects.


It's funny but I thought those mid 80's-early 90's Ranger teams won more games than they actually won. I remember there was a lot of hype around the 1986 team & Valentine winning 87 games but in the end that's the most they won during his 1985-1992 tenure. In the end there wasn't much of a difference between the 1977-81 Ranger teams and the 1986-92 teams in terms of win%

The thing I remember about Valentine during his Mets days was that he was very good at getting the most out of middle relievers and set-up men like Greg McMichael, Dennis Cook, Turk Wendell, and Pat Mahomes. And he was good at getting the most out of #3, #4, #5 starters like Rick Reed, Dave Milicki, Bobby Jones, Masato Yoshi & Glendon Rusch. And then Reed turned into a really good pitcher making 2 all star teams.
   28. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: May 12, 2017 at 12:07 PM (#5454253)

Bobby V. was a good baseball manager but he was often his own worse enemy. It always felt like Bobby V. had to let everybody know that he was was the smartest baseball man in the room.

From his time with the Mets, it seemed like Bobby could never answer the "dumb questions" from reporters* without some sort of exasperated look of contempt that showed exactly how stupid he thought they were. It's a dance that most managers and players are pretty good at -- and when they decide to let loose a little bit, at least it's funny.

* This is not a knock on reporters -- I know someone has to ask the routine questions and get the obvious answers.
   29. JohnQ Posted: May 12, 2017 at 12:29 PM (#5454278)
From Never Give an Inge #28:

From his time with the Mets, it seemed like Bobby could never answer the "dumb questions" from reporters* without some sort of exasperated look of contempt that showed exactly how stupid he thought they were. It's a dance that most managers and players are pretty good at -- and when they decide to let loose a little bit, at least it's funny.


It always seemed with the Mets that he obsessed over small battles & details that involved arcane baseball knowledge just to prove that he was the smartest baseball man in the majors. Meanwhile the big picture would be lost because he was obsessing on minor details. There was also a smugness about Valentine that was annoying considering he had a lifetime .504 Win% with only 2 play-off appearances.

And your point about a "dumb" question by a reporter is a prime example. A more shrewd & skilled manager like Torre would deflect those questions and move on.
   30. villageidiom Posted: May 12, 2017 at 12:33 PM (#5454283)
To me the real story here is the continuing lack of class that David Ortiz continues to show. If you can't say something nice....
...then you're Captain Supporter?
   31. RMc's Aggravating as Hell, Arrogant, Disrespectful Posted: May 12, 2017 at 12:42 PM (#5454300)
Username checks out.
   32. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: May 12, 2017 at 12:52 PM (#5454319)

#29, yes smugness is a perfect way of describing it.

I actually liked Valentine with the Mets. His tenure coincided with the first time the team was good that I was really old enough to follow. But he's the kind of guy you know won't last long when the team starts to falter.
   33. GGC for Sale Posted: May 12, 2017 at 12:55 PM (#5454323)
23. JohnQ Posted: May 12, 2017 at 10:35 AM (#5454148)
Bobby V. was a good baseball manager but he was often his own worse enemy. It always felt like Bobby V. had to let everybody know that he was was the smartest baseball man in the room.

He had been out of the majors too long (10 years) when he managed the 2012 Red Sox.


Chris Jaffe once compared Valentine to Charlie Dressen. Not sure if that was in his book or in a THT article. Another friend of mine once said that Valentine always had to put his signature on a game with some clever (at lest in his mind) move; be it a double switch, IBB, post-ejection dugout disguise, etc.

   34. Graham & the 15-win "ARod Vortex of suck" Posted: May 12, 2017 at 12:55 PM (#5454324)
I thought it was somehow going to be a callback to "ya lo tengo" (or maybe the Japanese version).


He wanted them to say "Sonic Youth."
   35. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: May 12, 2017 at 01:07 PM (#5454339)
He wanted them to say "Dump". Bobby V loved the cassette of Prince covers.
   36. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: May 12, 2017 at 01:12 PM (#5454345)
BDC's description of Valentine and some of the followup sort of paints him sort of as a poor man's Joe Maddon.
   37. Howie Menckel Posted: May 12, 2017 at 01:18 PM (#5454352)
And your point about a "dumb" question by a reporter is a prime example. A more shrewd & skilled manager like Torre would deflect those questions and move on.

heh. I was filling in on a Mets game where they called up a guy to make a start. I asked him if there was any chance the guy could stick if he pitched extremely well (managers answer this in different ways, but you can get some sense of what might happen from the way it is answered). he indeed gave this red-ass answer naming the five starters and sarcastically asking which one the guy would replace. whatever.

I did chuckle when the guy went to the mound again for the Mets about 5 days later, though
:)

Torre was so good that they could get ratings just showing his dugout banter with reporters. by the time he got to the Yankees, he had played and managed more than any player ever who hadn't won a World Series, and more than almost all who had. so he had a great anecdote for every possible topic, and never seemed to repeat himself at least in the occasional times I spent with him.
   38. Jose is El Absurd Pollo Posted: May 12, 2017 at 01:26 PM (#5454360)
BDC's description of Valentine and some of the followup sort of paints him sort of as a poor man's Joe Maddon.


That has never occurred to me before but it's a really good description. Classic example of that is pinch hitting for Iglesias with two strikes, didn't work.
   39. AROM Posted: May 12, 2017 at 01:53 PM (#5454378)
Did his birthdate change with the name change? I didn't realize that.


Both dates came with birthyear of 1975. Ortiz is one of the rare ones who got younger when his birthdate was corrected.
   40. Bug Selig Posted: May 12, 2017 at 02:12 PM (#5454389)
If you can't say something nice....
Did you read the first half of your own post before typing this?
   41. dlf Posted: May 12, 2017 at 02:27 PM (#5454399)
I just read the long exert in this week's Sports Illustrated. Suffice it to say that this won't be knocking Jim Bouton or Pat Jordan off my bookshelf.
   42. dlf Posted: May 12, 2017 at 02:36 PM (#5454402)
The thing I remember about Valentine during his Mets days was that he was very good at getting the most out of middle relievers and set-up men like Greg McMichael ...


Nitpicking, but ... McMichael in the four prior years pitching for Atlanta had 317 innings and an ERA of 2.89. For the year and a half with the Mets, he had 110 innings with an ERA of 3.12. Bobby V basically got the same thing out of Greg McMichael that Bobby C had previously.

... and Pat Mahomes.


The Chiefs just spent an awful lot and are hoping that Bobby V didn't.
   43. GGC for Sale Posted: May 12, 2017 at 02:46 PM (#5454409)
41. dlf Posted: May 12, 2017 at 02:27 PM (#5454399)
I just read the long exert in this week's Sports Illustrated. Suffice it to say that this won't be knocking Jim Bouton or Pat Jordan off my bookshelf.


As a Sox fan, I think I'll probably read it at some point. I was pleasantly surprised a few years back with the Francona/Shaughnessy book The Red Sox Years. That said, I think there's a Pedroia book out there, but I haven't read it. I never read the Mike Lowell one, either.
   44. GGC for Sale Posted: May 12, 2017 at 02:49 PM (#5454411)
I still haven't read Pedro's book either. Hmmm, maybe I won't get to this one for a bit. My reading has tended towards fiction lately.
   45. Sweatpants Posted: May 12, 2017 at 02:56 PM (#5454416)
In the somewhat famous September 1999 series in which the Braves swept the Mets at Turner Field, there was a game in which one of the key moments was Terry Mulholland (then of the Braves) fanning Bobby Bonilla with the bases loaded. After the game, Valentine was incredulous. Bonilla had owned Mulholland, with a .382/.432/.824 line against him going into 1999. That wasn't just a matchup he'd wanted; it was one that he'd been managing the game with the goal of creating, especially in an important situation. Valentine made sure to tell reporters in postgame interviews that, even though he'd managed exactly as he wanted to, sometimes things just don't work out like they should.

When asked about the at-bat, Bobby Cox told the same reporters that, believe it or not, Bonilla vs. Mulholland was a matchup that he'd wanted, too. Bonilla, of course, was cooked by that stage in his career. That's how I remember Valentine - self-assured, always thinking, intractable, goal-oriented, prone to getting blinded by the brilliance of his genius. "A poor man's Joe Maddon" isn't right to me. Maddon plays to the cameras just as much as Valentine, but he fosters an image of someone who's always willing to learn and challenge his own beliefs. Valentine treated the idea that he anything to learn from anyone else with contempt. Even after the beautiful Red Sox debacle he insisted that he had done the right things that year. Whether he was incapable of learning from his mistakes or just that committed to looking good in the papers I don't actually know.
   46. A Fatty Cow That Need Two Seats Posted: May 12, 2017 at 03:09 PM (#5454420)
The man could deep fry the hell out of a chicken tender
   47. Brian White Posted: May 12, 2017 at 03:54 PM (#5454443)
The Chiefs just spent an awful lot and are hoping that Bobby V didn't.


I hadn't realized until today that QB Pat Mahomes was the son of reliever Pat Mahomes. Looking at pictures of the two, it appears that the QB's mother must be extremely white.
   48. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: May 12, 2017 at 04:23 PM (#5454457)
When asked about the at-bat, Bobby Cox told the same reporters that, believe it or not, Bonilla vs. Mulholland was a matchup that he'd wanted, too. Bonilla, of course, was cooked by that stage in his career.


Heh, and then of course the Braves went out and signed Bonilla in 2000. Even got a bit of a dead cat bounce out of his bat, went from a 49 OPS+ with the Mets to 91 OPS+ with the Barves. Of course he sucked at D, and the Braves compounded that by playing him more, so he was worth a bit less than -1 WAR for each team.
   49. Panic Posted: May 12, 2017 at 04:35 PM (#5454466)
I hadn't realized until today that QB Pat Mahomes was the son of reliever Pat Mahomes. Looking at pictures of the two, it appears that the QB's mother must be extremely white.


Mahomes II is also Latroy Hawkins' godson.
   50. GGC for Sale Posted: May 12, 2017 at 04:52 PM (#5454476)
Mahomes II is one of those pharoahs later dynasties wrote out of history.
   51. AROM Posted: May 12, 2017 at 07:57 PM (#5454569)
Pedroia might have a decent book in him someday, but I prefer not to bother with it until they retire. Players can afford to be a bit more candid once they;be hung up the spikes.

Pedro's book was a good read.
   52. BDC Posted: May 12, 2017 at 07:58 PM (#5454570)
QB Shane Buechele of the U of Texas is the son of Steve Buechele of the Rangers. I saw Shane play HS football here in Arlington.
   53. ptodd Posted: May 12, 2017 at 09:46 PM (#5454609)
The interesting thing about the Valentine era was the support he got from the Red Sox press until September when ownership let it be known he was history. The Aviles incident was witnessed by reporters who covered it up for months until the end. When players went to the owners to lobby for Valentines removal in July Ortiz did not stand by them and defended Valentine right to the end , until Valentine called him a quitter over sitting out the rest of the year due to his achilles.
   54. JimMusComp likes Billy Eppler.... Posted: May 12, 2017 at 10:41 PM (#5454646)
Bobby Valentine v. 2011 is Donald T. Trump v. 2017.

Discuss.
   55. Howie Menckel Posted: May 12, 2017 at 10:43 PM (#5454648)
I liked 45 and 48

and NY media is dog eat dog
Boston often is the "biggest small town" attitude
   56. cardsfanboy Posted: May 12, 2017 at 10:43 PM (#5454649)
Discuss.


Let's not, that is an otp topic.
   57. cardsfanboy Posted: May 12, 2017 at 10:48 PM (#5454654)
"A poor man's Joe Maddon" isn't right to me. Maddon plays to the cameras just as much as Valentine, but he fosters an image of someone who's always willing to learn and challenge his own beliefs. Valentine treated the idea that he anything to learn from anyone else with contempt. Even after the beautiful Red Sox debacle he insisted that he had done the right things that year. Whether he was incapable of learning from his mistakes or just that committed to looking good in the papers I don't actually know.


Have to agree, Maddon is a guy having a bit of fun, who as a fan, you don't think his ego overshadows the team.... Valentine is all about ego. If you want to say he's a cross between Billy Martin/Joe Maddon, sure I can get that, but I'm not sure that Valentine really is anyone else, I could see the Keenan similarities (both overrated relative to the little success they had achieved, with ego personalities that force them to move from team to team) but beyond that, I'm not sure who else I would compare him too. (sometimes I think Pete Rose, but not sure that is fair to either of them)
   58. Howie Menckel Posted: May 12, 2017 at 11:35 PM (#5454671)
Mahomes II is also Latroy Hawkins' godson.

I have mentioned before, but journeyman Hawkins is one of the most splendid athletes of the last 20 years - even cooler that he got to touch so many communities.

the Astros scout famously noted that Jeter had the best parents he had ever met - and they passed.

Mahomes having Hawkins ties has to give you the same character. but yes NFL QB is about more
   59. Leroy Kincaid Posted: May 13, 2017 at 11:21 AM (#5454725)
Huh. I forgot that Mahomes was black. Virtue!
   60. Golfing Great Mitch Cumstein Posted: May 13, 2017 at 07:28 PM (#5454961)
The interesting thing about the Valentine era was the support he got from the Red Sox press until September when ownership let it be known he was history. The Aviles incident was witnessed by reporters who covered it up for months until the end. When players went to the owners to lobby for Valentines removal in July Ortiz did not stand by them and defended Valentine right to the end , until Valentine called him a quitter over sitting out the rest of the year due to his achilles.


Cafardo of course led the Bobby V. Fan Club. I don't recall the writers being unanimous in their support. It was widely reported that Valentine was a Lucchino pick and Cherrington didn't want him. The press conference made that clear.
The sports radio shows and fans mocked him from the start. He has this intense desire to brag about the smallest things, which opens him up to the mockery.
One interesting thing is that Pedroia, who spoke up about the Youkilis comment, said last year he didn't have a problem with Valentine and learned from him.
   61. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: May 13, 2017 at 10:55 PM (#5455001)
One interesting thing is that Pedroia, who spoke up about the Youkilis comment, said last year he didn't have a problem with Valentine and learned from him.


Interesting, or maybe Pedroia is mellowing and realizes he is now the elder statesman in the clubhouse and what he says has a lot of impact. Why talk #### about V? Gets them nothing but follow up questions.
   62. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: May 14, 2017 at 12:09 AM (#5455015)
####
   63. Jose is El Absurd Pollo Posted: May 14, 2017 at 09:25 AM (#5455049)
I maybe forgetting something but Pedroia's more outrageous statements have always been self directed. I don't really recall him being critical of others. He will make some crazy statements of self confidence (like this spring when he said the early decline of second basemen didn't apply to him because he's a shortstop being played out of position) but isn't a type to call out others. Ortiz is more likely to be outspoken about people he doesn't like.
   64. ReggieThomasLives Posted: May 14, 2017 at 11:47 AM (#5455083)
Bobby V the best Sox managerial hire ever?

If Farrelll was hired that year, he may have been fired and replaced by, Bobby V..

Picking BobbyV virtually eliminated Larry Luccinos corrosive influence from baseball ops and sent him away.

Discuss.
   65. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 14, 2017 at 12:15 PM (#5455093)
I sometimes wonder what Max Scherzer's thoughts are about having leaped from the frying pan into the fire when he went from the Tigers to the Nats.

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