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Thursday, December 06, 2018

David Ortiz is all fired up about J.D. Martinez not being MVP finalist

David Ortiz is tired of the anti-designated hitter bias.

The former Boston Red Sox slugger never won an American League MVP award despite putting up some monster numbers throughout his career. He’s apparently still a little salty about that, and after watching J.D. Martinez finish a distant fourth in AL MVP voting this year, Ortiz couldn’t bite his tongue any longer.

“OK, Mookie Betts was the MVP, but you were the runner-up,” Ortiz told WEEI.com’s Rob Bradford at his annual David Ortiz Golf Classic in the Dominican Republic. “That’s the type of credit he needs to get. Not this other (expletive). Come on, man. I never understand it.”

No one had the heart to explain to David Ortiz that, in quite a few regards, he is the epitome of why designated hitters have a bad reputation, or at least would be were it not for really good press agents…..

 

QLE Posted: December 06, 2018 at 08:04 AM | 31 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: david ortiz, designated hitters, j.d. martinez

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   1. I Am Not a Number Posted: December 06, 2018 at 08:33 AM (#5794483)
"I never understand it". No, David, and you probably never will.
   2. manchestermets Posted: December 06, 2018 at 08:43 AM (#5794484)
“OK, Mookie Betts was the MVP, but you were the runner-up,” Ortiz told WEEI.com’s Rob Bradford at his annual David Ortiz Golf Classic in the Dominican Republic.


If WEEI.com's Rob Bradford was the runner-up in the AL MVP, the voting is more screwed up than we thought.
   3. I Am Not a Number Posted: December 06, 2018 at 08:46 AM (#5794485)
The voting is clearly biased against non-players.
   4. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: December 06, 2018 at 09:03 AM (#5794493)
Ortiz' viewpoint is fairly common among Red Sox fans/media. Martinez was a guy "you had to see every day" and "he did more behind the scenes than most people realize" type stuff. He doesn't belong ahead of Trout and Ramirez but this is a Red Sox bias more than a DH bias I think (though some of the latter sprinkled in with Ortiz of course).
   5. Benji Gil Gamesh VII - The Opt-Out Awakens Posted: December 06, 2018 at 09:16 AM (#5794495)
I think there's also the obvious truth that with Mookie considered a slam-dunk first-place vote by nearly everyone, it is just much less likely that those same people would put a teammate second.

If Mookie and JD have the same seasons on great teams, but not the same team, I would guess JD does at least a little better. (Edit: not to say that I think he should, though.)
   6. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: December 06, 2018 at 09:20 AM (#5794498)
Ortiz' viewpoint is fairly common among Red Sox fans/media.
And that’s why a lot of other people find them insufferable. You already won 108 games and the World Series, and Mookie got the MVP. Sense of entitlement much?
   7. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 06, 2018 at 09:21 AM (#5794499)
this is a Red Sox bias more than a DH bias


It's entirely appropriate to downgrade a DH - the guy is only playing half of every game.
   8. Benji Gil Gamesh VII - The Opt-Out Awakens Posted: December 06, 2018 at 09:32 AM (#5794506)
And that’s why a lot of other people find them insufferable. You already won 108 games and the World Series, and Mookie got the MVP. Sense of entitlement much?
Oh please. It's homerism and it would be more or less the same if the same situation were transplanted to a different team.
   9. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: December 06, 2018 at 09:51 AM (#5794512)
And that’s why a lot of other people find them insufferable. You already won 108 games and the World Series, and Mookie got the MVP. Sense of entitlement much?

Oh please. It's homerism and it would be more or less the same if the same situation were transplanted to a different team.


And it's also full of bullshit. There were plenty of national writers who were praising JD and saying he was the MVP of the Red Sox. The 'look at the offense this year compared to last year' crowd did exist. I'd say the majority of Sox fans were the ones laughing off those articles and pointing out that Betts was very clearly the better player.
   10. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: December 06, 2018 at 09:56 AM (#5794518)
It's entirely appropriate to downgrade a DH - the guy is only playing half of every game.


No argument there.
   11. bbmck Posted: December 06, 2018 at 10:10 AM (#5794525)
The Boston votes are Christopher Smith of the Springfield Republican and Ian Browne of mlb.com they both went in order: Betts, Trout, Martinez, Ramirez, Bregman.

Going by the headline it's nitpicking, Ramirez 208 points vs Martinez 198 vs Bregman 192. With a different set of 30 voters even if they largely think the same it wouldn't be at all surprising for any of those 3 to be a finalist.

Trout 265 points is ranked higher than all 3 of those players by 25 of 30 voters, pretty good chance he's finishing 2nd so for his quote to/about Rob Bradford he might want to contact Murray Chass who reached out to every voter who placed Trout higher than 5th to explain their reasoning, maybe Chass has gotten more replies since the blog post. Maybe Chass would even share the contact information which is probably public information and Ortiz might get more replies than Chass.
   12. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 06, 2018 at 10:59 AM (#5794546)
No argument there.


Fair enough - your use of the word "bias" made me think you were implying that downgrading DHs for that was undeserved.
   13. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: December 06, 2018 at 11:07 AM (#5794552)
Murray Chass who reached out to every voter who placed Trout higher than 5th to explain their reasoning,
Oh, Murray.
   14. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: December 06, 2018 at 11:14 AM (#5794556)

Martinez won the Hank Aaron award for the best hitter in the league, even though he finished 3rd in the league in OPS+ and Rbat (behind Trout and Betts, respectively, in both stats). And for those who want to give Martinez extra credit for crushing it with RISP, both Trout and Betts actually had a better OPS with RISP than he did. He just had a lot more opportunities. I'm not arguing with the results, but I don't think JDM was underappreciated this season.
   15. Master of the Horse Posted: December 06, 2018 at 11:18 AM (#5794558)
I really appreciated the writer responses about Trout MVP voting. Interesting stuff.
   16. PreservedFish Posted: December 06, 2018 at 11:25 AM (#5794565)
Surprisingly gracious of Murray to print those responses without excoriating each writer individually. I noticed a while ago that Murray also supported DeGrom for the CYA.
   17. RoyalFlush Posted: December 06, 2018 at 11:31 AM (#5794572)
Martinez won the Hank Aaron award for the best hitter in the league, even though he finished 3rd in the league in OPS+ and Rbat (behind Trout and Betts, respectively, in both stats). And for those who want to give Martinez extra credit for crushing it with RISP, both Trout and Betts actually had a better OPS with RISP than he did. He just had a lot more opportunities. I'm not arguing with the results, but I don't think JDM was underappreciated this season.


And he won TWO Silver Sluggers this year. All of that and a 4th place finish in the AL MVP make me feel as if JD has been properly recognized for his efforts and achievements this year.
   18. geonose Posted: December 06, 2018 at 12:27 PM (#5794619)
The Hank Aaron Award has a substantial fan voting component, which automatically makes it suspect.
   19. Kiko Sakata Posted: December 06, 2018 at 12:41 PM (#5794632)
The Hank Aaron Award has a substantial fan voting component, which automatically makes it suspect.


J.D. Martinez was a perfectly reasonable choice for the Hank Aaron award, even if not necessarily the best choice. But, yeah, the Hank Aaron award has had some odd results historically. Maybe they've improved the voting structure in the last 10 years, but Aramis Ramirez won the award in 2008. I loved Aramis Ramirez when he was a Cub and the guy was a great hitter. But without refreshing my own memory as to who specifically he screwed out of that award, I'm pretty confident that Aramis Ramirez was never the best hitter in the National League over the course of a full major-league season.

As for Martinez and the MVP, he finished 4th in MVP voting and probably deserved to finish somewhere between, say, 3rd and 5th in MVP voting - maybe lower if you think pitchers should get more love. Seems perfectly fair.
   20. Cleveland (need new name) fan Posted: December 06, 2018 at 03:37 PM (#5794736)
Oh, Murray.


If you want to take Murray's definition of "Valuable" to its logical conclusion, the only player in the AL whose teams playoff determination would have changed if they were replaced by 0 bWAR player was Chapman. Doesn't this make him the MVP by definition? Who could be more valuable to the team, even if he wasn't the best player in the league?

If you want to expand the definition to include playoff seeding, then he would be joined by the following position players Betts, Martinez, Bregman, Judge, Stanton, Hicks, and Gregarious. I intentionally left out pitchers who might qualify under this definition. Players like Ramirez and Lindor had the same value as Trout (none) since if they didn't play, their team would have been in the same exact place in regards to the playoffs.
   21. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: December 06, 2018 at 07:10 PM (#5794838)
And that’s why a lot of other people find them insufferable. You already won 108 games and the World Series, and Mookie got the MVP. Sense of entitlement much?


oh please. This coming from a Cubs fan.

The fanbase where the team finally got good in 2015 and now complains when they win 95 games and call the season an epic failure. The fanbase that prattles on about how great their young core is and expects 3-4 more titles because everyone over there is just so darn clever! There's your entitlement.

Most Red Sox fans I know hope for 95 wins and just pray the playoffs go well. The Sox got crushed in '16 and '17 and there wasn't much complaining about it. You win enough games to make the playoffs and roll the dice. Though over the last 15 years, when the Sox do get rolling in the playoffs they've been unstoppable...and that can be pretty random stuff and I for one am intensely greatful for good, timely play and an abundance of luck.
   22. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: December 07, 2018 at 12:23 AM (#5794888)
Yeah, in retrospect, my #6 was overstated, and I apologize to Sawx Nation. What I should have said was that it's pretty insufferable of Ortiz to complain about the MVP runner-up, in light of everything else, and of anyone who does the same. I just took Jose's comment that it reflected the general sentiment of Red Sox fans and ran with it, without anything to support it. Mea culper.
   23. villageidiom Posted: December 07, 2018 at 08:20 AM (#5794911)
What I should have said was that it's pretty insufferable of Ortiz to complain about the MVP runner-up, in light of everything else, and of anyone who does the same.
Fixed that for you.

Ortiz on the FOX pregame and postgame shows was his fun-loving self but every chance he got to open his mouth he talked about himself. The old joke is "But enough about me, let's talk about you. How do you like my car?" Ortiz was making that a reality.

It was painful to watch A-Rod do his doppelganger thing and try to Papi himself up in the pre/post game shows. But it wasn't nearly as painful as watching Papi himself. Again, I've nothing against fun-loving Papi. He's a great ambassador for baseball. There should be more joy, and he brings it. But when he makes it about him he tends to sap that joy. They should keep a jar on the desk and make him pay every time he makes it about himself.

OK, that aside, it's reasonable to say JD Martinez was among the best hitters in baseball this year. It's reasonable to say that Martinez was the 2nd best hitter on the Red Sox. It's also noted that he and Betts claim that each made the other better, taking each others' advice throughout the season.

(EDITed to fix a nannied link.)
   24. McCoy Posted: December 07, 2018 at 09:26 AM (#5794931)
So who knew that ray was in fact using a fake name all this time and was really David Ortiz?
   25. Greg Pope Posted: December 07, 2018 at 10:38 AM (#5794954)
complains when they win 95 games and call the season an epic failure.

Cite, please.
   26. Walt Davis Posted: December 07, 2018 at 04:41 PM (#5795196)
The voting is clearly biased against non-players.

I dunno about that, I finished no worse than 10th in CYA voting for most of my non-career and got nearly as many 1st place votes as Jack Morris.

FWIW, from Wiki, regarding the Aaron award ...

For the 1999 season, a winner was selected using an objective points system. Hits, home runs, and runs batted in (RBI) were given certain point values and the winner was the player who had the highest tabulated points total.[1][2]

In 2000, the system was changed to a ballot in which each MLB team's radio and television play-by-play broadcasters and color analysts voted for three players in each league. Their first place vote receives five points, the second place vote receives three points, and the third place vote receives one point. Beginning in 2003, fans were given the opportunity to vote via MLB's official website, MLB.com. Fans' votes account for 30% of the points, while broadcasters' and analysts' votes account for the other 70%.


Which still doesn't explain ARam but it might have been more the broadcasters' fault.

And, in looking that stuff up, I discover the MLB has a "Delivery Man" award -- I assume sponsored by UPS or Dominos or Amazon or somebody -- oh well, it ended in 2013 (I guess the sponsorship dried up). I was hoping it was an award for set-up guys but no, it was just another closer award cuz Lord knows those guys are so incredibly important, they need two awards.

Also b-r seems to have stopped updating the Edgar ... or is it no longer awarded?

And $7 M internet bucks if you can name the 2018 NL comeback player of the year without looking.

   27. cardsfanboy Posted: December 08, 2018 at 12:21 PM (#5795315)
Also b-r seems to have stopped updating the Edgar ... or is it no longer awarded?


According to Wikipedia, it's still awarded.

2018 was Khris Davis, 2017 was Nelson Cruz....
And, in looking that stuff up, I discover the MLB has a "Delivery Man" award -- I assume sponsored by UPS or Dominos or Amazon or somebody -- oh well, it ended in 2013 (I guess the sponsorship dried up). I was hoping it was an award for set-up guys but no, it was just another closer award cuz Lord knows those guys are so incredibly important, they need two awards.


Delivery man of the year was renamed to the Trevor Hoffman (Nl) and Mariano Rivera(AL) award. (originally sponsored by DHL)

Since it's been renamed, the winners have been

Hoffman Award
2014 - Kimbrel
2015 - Melancon
2016 - Jansen
2017 - Jansen
2018 - Hader

Rivera Award
2014 - Greg Holland
2015 - Andrew Miller
2016 - Britton
2017 - Kimbrel
2018 - Edwin Diaz.
   28. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: December 08, 2018 at 12:41 PM (#5795322)
I guess the Deliveryman and Rolaids Relief Man awards were combined into the Hoffman/Rivera awards? I had never heard of the Deliveryman award until today, although I remember hearing about the Rolaids one pretty regularly.

Good to see they gave the award to a guy with only 12 saves this year.
   29. cardsfanboy Posted: December 08, 2018 at 12:56 PM (#5795331)
I guess the Deliveryman and Rolaids Relief Man awards were combined into the Hoffman/Rivera awards? I had never heard of the Deliveryman award until today, although I remember hearing about the Rolaids one pretty regularly.


I just assumed that the Rolaids award had morphed into the deliveryman award that nobody noticed, but apparently from 2005 until 2012 they were both active awards. When Rolaids got bought out in 2012, they discontinued the award under the new management..

It makes sense that any 'official' award should not be locked into naming rights with a sponsor. Sure Rawlings and Louisville are both sponsors of the Gold Glove and Silver Slugger awards, but if their sponsorship ends, those name(assuming they aren't copyrighted---which they probably are) could be used with a new sponsor or no sponsor at all.
   30. Howie Menckel Posted: December 08, 2018 at 01:31 PM (#5795350)
"Good to see they gave the award to a guy with only 12 saves this year."

Brewer vs Brewer

JoHader - 6-1, 12 SV, 2.43 ERA in 81 IP
Jeffress - 8-1, 15 SV, 1.29 ERA in 77 IP

Hader surrendered twice as many ER in about the same number of IP. both allowed 1 unearned run

for 2019? gimme Hader in a heartbeat. but if you're telling me Hader had the better 2018 season, well, I'd like to see the argument first.
   31. cardsfanboy Posted: December 08, 2018 at 02:05 PM (#5795369)
for 2019? gimme Hader in a heartbeat. but if you're telling me Hader had the better 2018 season, well, I'd like to see the argument first.


era is a crappy stat to use for a reliever.. It's one of the few times that I support fip, and absolutely support whip.

But let's look at a few stats

Triple slash stats.
Hader .220/.265/.484
Jeffres .258/.271/.530....both excellent, but Hader better.

Whip
Hader .811
Jeffress .991

Fip
Hader 2.23
Jeffress 2.78

Babip
Hader .221
Jeffress .250

I'm just not seeing any reason when you look at their rate stats to give bigger credit for Jeffress than Hader... the only real thing that Jeffress has over Hader is his large number of inherited runners and the good percentage of preventing them from scoring (21%...which is a Hoffman level or elite level) vs Hader with 26%(a Rivera level or league average level) I have no problem people liking Jefress, but I think any detailed looking at their stats shows that Hader was better.



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