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Tuesday, July 31, 2012

Davidi: Jays deal Snider and Thames for pitchers

The Blue Jays had lots of young outfielders, and now they have lots of young relievers.

In one fell swoop the Toronto Blue Jays have dramatically revamped their bullpen and seemingly opened up a spot for Anthony Gose in their outfield.

A wild night of wheeling and dealing Monday sent long-time prospect Travis Snider to the Pittsburgh Pirates for set-up man Brad Lincoln and opening day left-fielder Eric Thames to the Seattle Mariners for reliever Steve Delabar.

Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 31, 2012 at 07:13 AM | 33 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: blue jays, mariners, pirates, trade, trades, transactions

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   1. John DiFool2 Posted: July 31, 2012 at 08:17 AM (#4196772)
sent long-time prospect Travis Snider


If a guy is a "long-time prospect", then he ain't no longer a prospect at all.
   2. formerly dp Posted: July 31, 2012 at 08:24 AM (#4196776)
I posted this in the trade chatter:
Not sure why the Jays dealt low on Snider-- it's not like they have a real shot this year with all the injuries to their pitching. With the return on Thames, it seems like they would have been better off holding him. I just don't get the logic of dealing two young, cost-controlled hitters for middle relief. I thought AA was supposed to be smarter than this.
   3. Toolsy McClutch Posted: July 31, 2012 at 08:29 AM (#4196782)
What the hell?
   4. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 31, 2012 at 08:39 AM (#4196786)
so snider can really hit in the minors has kind of hit in the majors but not as much is a big husky guy and is only 24 years old.

not keen on the pirates getting their left fielder for the next five years for some juju beans

geez doug melvin, you couldn't toss the jays some stuff for this guy?
   5. Greg K Posted: July 31, 2012 at 08:43 AM (#4196787)
Fair enough on Thames, he doesn't look like an actual major league player...but what would have been the harm in giving Snider one more chance?

EDIT: Every time I hear Delabar's name all I think is "What the hell is pick a bar?"
   6. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 31, 2012 at 08:44 AM (#4196788)
Lincoln isn't a "middle reliever". His velocity's up this year, and out of the pen in 2012, he's got an 0.50 ERA, a 0.84 WHIP, and a 40/8 K/BB in 35 2/3 IP. He's a very, very good setup arm with closer potential, if the Jays want to use him that way.
   7. bookbook Posted: July 31, 2012 at 08:44 AM (#4196789)
Feels like AA was tired of watching these two flail away.
   8. formerly dp Posted: July 31, 2012 at 08:58 AM (#4196793)
Lincoln isn't a "middle reliever". His velocity's up this year, and out of the pen in 2012, he's got an 0.50 ERA, a 0.84 WHIP, and a 40/8 K/BB in 35 2/3 IP. He's a very, very good setup arm with closer potential, if the Jays want to use him that way.


A reliever with a terrible track record in the majors having a 50-inning stretch of being good, the first one of his career, at age 27 screams "middle reliever" to me. The Jays bought high on him, and sold Snider low. That's a recipe for losing, and it wasn't a trade they needed to make. Unless they think they've got a shot this year, which, again, would be an assessment I don't agree with.
   9. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 31, 2012 at 09:21 AM (#4196808)
A reliever with a terrible track record in the majors...


He had a terrible track record in the majors because up until this year he was being used primarily as a starter, and he doesn't have much of a changeup to speak of. As a reliever, though, he's been a totally different pitcher.

at age 27


He was drafted as a college junior, and then he lost an entire season to TJ, so the age thing kind of is what it is. Stuff is stuff, though, regardless of age.

The Jays bought high on him...


No, the Jays bought low on Lincoln. A year from now, you'd be giving up a lot more than an interesting-ish busted prospect in order to get him.
   10. formerly dp Posted: July 31, 2012 at 09:29 AM (#4196813)
He had a terrible track record in the majors because up until this year he was being used primarily as a starter, and he doesn't have much of a changeup to speak of. As a reliever, though, he's been a totally different pitcher.


In 35 innings. I'm not ready to pronounce this a huge step forward yet, especially when he sucked so badly as a starter. There are lots of guys who have a nice year out of the 'pen one season and then go back to sucking the next.

No, the Jays bought low on Lincoln. A year from now, you'd be giving up a lot more than an interesting-ish busted prospect in order to get him.


I hope so. But I wouldn't bet Snider on it.
   11. snowles Posted: July 31, 2012 at 09:50 AM (#4196827)
After a night to sleep on it, I'm feeling slightly better about the Snider-Lincoln trade, but unless there's another deal involving relievers, I'm not seeing how Lincoln is going to provide a lot to a bullpen that's already pretty crowded. Santos/Janssen will close next year, Janssen/Santos and Oliver will setup. Lincoln and Luis Perez will be in the 6th and 7th, I suppose. Aaron Loup, a 24-year old who has been fantastic and throws sidearm 94 from the left side is there. David Carpenter should be in the majors right now. That's 7 right there, plus a swingman is still needed. Jason Frasor (FA), Chad Beck, Brandon Lyon (FA), Evan Crawford and Sam Dyson are also pieces to fit in this year and next. J.A. Happ, Aaron Laffey and Brett Cecil - who knows?

All of which makes the Delabar trade even more perplexing, even if it is a good deal.
   12. Matthew E Posted: July 31, 2012 at 10:00 AM (#4196850)
When Jays fans look at Snider, they see the player they hope he turns into, who is a very good player indeed. But he might never become that guy. I agree he still has a chance, and I would have been in favour of giving it to him, but I can't say Anthopoulos is wrong for disagreeing. The virtues of Snider are many: likeable, mature, works hard, fast, good defense, power. But he does strike out quite a bit and may never put it all together with the bat. Roll the bones. I don't like the trade, but I won't say it's a bad trade either.

Thames: also likeable, smart, good sense of humour, can't play CF and won't hit or walk enough to be a major league regular. I'll miss him, but I won't miss him, if you see what I mean. What's Delabar all about?

Mostly what I wonder is what the Jays OF looks like in the short and medium term. Short-term they've got Rasmus, Davis, and Gose. Neither Davis nor Gose should be playing everyday, but there's no fourth guy on the roster except maybe Yan Gomes, who's also the backup catcher. Plus, the Jays have a nine-or-ten man bullpen at the moment, which seems excessive. The OF situation will be cleared up a bit when Bautista returns from the DL, but who's the regular LF next year? I can't believe Gose will be ready; he's looked very raw so far.
   13. Greg K Posted: July 31, 2012 at 10:05 AM (#4196857)
Mostly what I wonder is what the Jays OF looks like in the short and medium term. Short-term they've got Rasmus, Davis, and Gose. Neither Davis nor Gose should be playing everyday, but there's no fourth guy on the roster except maybe Yan Gomes, who's also the backup catcher. Plus, the Jays have a nine-or-ten man bullpen at the moment, which seems excessive. The OF situation will be cleared up a bit when Bautista returns from the DL, but who's the regular LF next year? I can't believe Gose will be ready; he's looked very raw so far.

I think that's my attitude. I'm pretty pessimistic on Snider, but there's still a chance there...I wouldn't have been against trading him, but when LF is kind of open (there seems little point to me in playing Davis there every day) and the bullpen already full this seems like an odd choice to make.
   14. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 31, 2012 at 10:08 AM (#4196860)
it took mike easler a decade to get his sea legs.

snider has had so much success boy it's hard to see him not figuring things out at some point
   15. Jorge Luis Bourjos (Walewander) Posted: July 31, 2012 at 10:10 AM (#4196864)

Under Anthopolous, the Jays have proven they can stock their system with talent. What they haven't proven, whether the prospects are guys AA brought in or guys JP brought in, is that they can turn talented kids into ballplayers.

This is a sell-low, limited upside trade for the Jays and I wish Dombrowski had offered Villareal or Casey Crosby for Snider.
   16. Rants Mulliniks Posted: July 31, 2012 at 10:14 AM (#4196867)
I don't think Lincoln is a horrible return for Snider, but they could have done better. I have to think there must be something else imminent, because like a few others have said, the Jays right now have a bench consisting of Vizquel and Yan Gomes. Who are they going to call up, Mike McCoy again? Even when Bautista comes back the outfield is thin when Davis and Gose make up 50% of it. Gose is not ready at all.

Snider has proven everyone wrong who thought he'd be a career DH, and turned himself into a valuable defensive outfielder who takes good routes and has a surprising range. I hope he makes many AS teams in Pittsburgh.

Thames was never in the Jays plans, for good reason. He may end up being a serviceable bench player someday, but he shouldn't start for a contending team. He's as bad a butcher as I've ever seen in LF.
   17. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 31, 2012 at 10:48 AM (#4196908)
He may end up being a serviceable bench player someday, but he shouldn't start for a contending team.


What about first base?
   18. Matthew E Posted: July 31, 2012 at 10:48 AM (#4196909)
He's just not a good enough hitter.
   19. The_Ex Posted: July 31, 2012 at 10:57 AM (#4196916)
snowles:

Luis Perez had TJ surgery....he won't be a factor in 2013.
   20. snowles Posted: July 31, 2012 at 11:19 AM (#4196952)
The Ex: I'm aware, but it's possible, if not likely he will be back in August or September. Even so, there's about 10 guys to cram into 7 spots, and a few intriguing names in FA that could be available as well, perhaps Ryan Madson as he appears to be have made redundant in Cincy. I'll reserve judgment until the deadline passes, but at this point it all looks pretty underwhelming.
   21. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: July 31, 2012 at 11:30 AM (#4196967)
McGehee would be the 3B and Pedro Alvarez would be the 1B if Alvarez had proven himself unable to play 3B, but Alvarez seems to be not incredibly bad at 3B. Of course some people say Alvarez is being irreparably ruined as a potential star hitter by being forced to play a position he isn't comfortable with, but what layman can really know a thing like that.
   22. Seattle Slew Posted: July 31, 2012 at 11:44 AM (#4196990)
Snider may indeed turn into decent hitter in the future, but I really wish the Pirates would pull the trigger to get a good on base guy to help what is essentially McCutchen and the 8 dwarves.

To help them compete this year, that is.
   23. mathesond Posted: July 31, 2012 at 11:44 AM (#4196991)
My thinking is that AA sees the Jays as similar to last year's Cardinals team, and that an upgraded bullpen could be the difference between .500 and the playoffs. This of course means that Snider is this year's Colby Rasmus.

As for Thames, I see his absolute peak being reminiscent of Frank Catalanotto, but without the defense. And for the most part, I don't see him being nearly as good a hitter as Cat
   24. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: July 31, 2012 at 01:05 PM (#4197126)
My thinking is that AA sees the Jays as similar to last year's Cardinals team, and that an upgraded bullpen could be the difference between .500 and the playoffs. This of course means that Snider is this year's Colby Rasmus.


So Brad Lincoln is Edwin Jackson, Octavio Dotel and Mark Rzepczynski all rolled into one?
   25. JJ1986 Posted: July 31, 2012 at 01:28 PM (#4197161)
I think Lincoln is Rz, Delabar is Dotel and Matt Garza is hopefully going to be E-Jax.
   26. RJ in TO Posted: July 31, 2012 at 01:34 PM (#4197171)
Mariners fans, you're in for a big treat watching Thames in the outfield. He's definitely something special out there.
   27. formerly dp Posted: July 31, 2012 at 01:42 PM (#4197184)
Mariners fans, you're in for a big treat watching Thames in the outfield. He's definitely something special out there.


You don't think they've already suffered enough with Ibanez?
   28. RJ in TO Posted: July 31, 2012 at 01:46 PM (#4197193)
You don't think they've already suffered enough with Ibanez?


Ibanez mostly seemed to take really bad routes and offer up bad throws. Thames can offer all that, the ability to comically misjudge flyballs, and the ability to let a ball bounce over his head in the outfield. Rants understates Thames awfulness in the field.
   29. bookbook Posted: July 31, 2012 at 02:19 PM (#4197248)
I'd be shocked if Thames is worse than Peguero out there (or Liddi). We M's fans long for the defensive quality of an Ibanez from time to time.
   30. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) Posted: July 31, 2012 at 03:40 PM (#4197358)
I was at Ichiro's last game at Safeco, and Peguero was manning right field. He got a near-standing ovation for making a dramatic catch going back on what should have been a routine fly. It was like the applause a sixth-grade soloist in the jazz ensemble gets.
   31. Random Transaction Generator Posted: July 31, 2012 at 04:33 PM (#4197456)
Earlier this season, I saw Thames commit the grand-slam of outfield failure on one play:

- bad route to the ball
- let it bounce over his head
- dropped the ball when picking it up
- missed the cutoff man

He really has no idea what to do out there.
   32.     Hey Gurl Posted: July 31, 2012 at 05:35 PM (#4197525)
I keep seeing that Snider is Rasmus and I honestly think it's absurd. Snider has never had the sustained success in the big leagues that Rasmus had in 2010. When Rasmus was 23, he was putting up an 859 OPS in the big leagues while playing CF, not putting up an 870 OPS in the absurdity of the PCL like Snider.

Jays fans have an emotional attachment to Snider based on watching him get drafted as a high schooler and eagerly following his career since he was 18 years old. I get it, and also find it hard to let go, but realistically Snider has been given the ball several times and has not been able to run with it, and it's hard to really justify placing him much further than Eric Thames as a hitter without resorting to silly arguments.

I wish the best for Snider, but I don't have a problem with this trade at all. Especially if Lincoln can one day go back to the rotation.
   33. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 31, 2012 at 07:28 PM (#4197579)
Lincoln is not going and should not go back to the rotation. He's a good relief pitcher and should be left alone in that role, where he will provide value as long as his arm holds together.

Snider's an OK outfielder. As a value swap the Pirates probably come out slightly ahead simply because they get the position player (and therefore the guy less likely to suffer a career-altering injury at any time).

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